Kansas Wrestling Forums General Discussion Kids Folkstyle $14, 130 contributed by 6 and unders

$14,130 is the amount of money our state receives from 6 and under wrestling cards. The six and unders contribute the largest amount of money, yet they don't have a bracket for their age at our state tournament. We tell them they need to wrestle up in the 8 and under bracket if they want to be there.

This year I think the 10 and unders should wrestle up in the 12 and under bracket to allow the six and unders to have their own bracket for their age at state. I have a ten and under wrestler but don't have a 6 and under, just tired of seeing these kids and their parents paying the bill for something they don't receive.

If we wanted to keep things the same and not have the six and unders have their own age bracket at state I suppose the board of USA Wrestling - Kansas, Inc could vote to give that money to the club that holds the 6 and under championships. That way the six and unders that everyone thinks are too young or immature to handle an event like state could be in a seperate building.

Another option would be to have our state follow USAW ages and weights. Fewer weights per age would allow the six and unders to have their own spot at state. I really don't care how we get those bill paying 6 and unders to state with their own age brackets to use. Just wanted to start some discussion that might lead to better opportunities for the 6 and under wrestlers.

Please provide some input if you would like to see this changed to your club representative.

I agree whole heartedly with Mr. Roberts, and I can't see a good argument against what he has proposed.

I know every year this comes up. I also know that District 2 in the past has been a strong supporter of this. I actually have kind of moved my position on this. In the past, I was a strong strong supporter of it, now I am just a strong supporter of it, the reasoning being that as it stands now, more 6 & Under wrestlers get a chance at their State Championship as their brackets are not limited to a 16 man bracket as it would be at Topeka. Thus, less 6 & under wrestlers would get the opportunity to wrestle at Tokeka than they would as it currently is at Ottawa (I think that is right).

All things being said, I still say there is a way to do 6 & under at State, and keep everything the way it is with minor modifications. I also know that the state has been open to discussing this at the state body meetings, but we need more districts to support it. The only reason it is not there, is that some clubs continue to vote against it. I am also convinced, if it came down to a vote of the membership, it would pass, but there are some clubs that continue to vote against the desires of their membership, that is maybe how those clubs are set up, and up to their own polity policies.

Mike-ALL the six and unders in the state that wanted a chance at a championship could enter in their sub districts and districts, ALL of them.

That is correct, that is why I am still a "strong" instead of a "strong" "strong" supporter.

Honestly guys, the solution isn't to add six and under but to have a State backed, sanctioned, six and under only state tournament in Salina on a Sunday before we start sub districts. The season is FAR TOO LONG for the little ones and possibly leads to the significant drop off in later years. Having the tournament seperate makes sense in many ways:

They get the undivided attention of their coaches

The tournament is shorter.

The get full size mats.

The state tournament as it is now is too big for every city in KS except Wichita.

The kids get more attention from the spectators.

A central location makes it economically feasible for those from all parts of the state.

Having weigh in on Saturday night and put the brackets together so no one is turned away.

I am sure there is much, much more to support this concept.

I submitted this idea before the executive committee but it was tabled.

I think putting 6 & unders into subs, districts, & state would be a better situation than the one day 6 & under champiionship tournament. My son has wrestled at the 6 & under tournament twice. It was ran very efficiently and well organized and I appreciate everyone involved. But, it was a very long day! He had 64 man brackets both years. The first year he wrestled 7 matches and didn't even place. It's like trying to qualify for subs & districts, and wrestle state all in the same day. Too much. And it really is not the same experience for the wrestler. The Ottawa facilities are nice but it's not the Expo Center. He is 10 & under now. Bottom line---to be fair, we should all put our heads together and figure out a way to get them to Topeka.

State wrestling participants pay a $15 dollar entry fee and their families pay a daily entry fee. There are entry fees at the sub-district and district level also. I don't believe the state tourney or qualifiers are subsidized with the wrestling card dollars.

Still Against! Strongly Against

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Might get the money on the front end but will that kid be around in the long term. I had a kid about 6 years ago that moved in to the area. He was a 10 & under state champ undefeated. At 12 & under he was just a little over 500 winning percentage. He hung up the shoes we lost him. No more money. It is funny I am sitting here writing this again this year. I just got a call from my brother who is a High School wrestling coach in Wisconsin, kids club very involved, former college wrestler, and elementary teacher of 25 years. He is of the same mind set on how to develop kids. Make it fun, get them some matches, teach them the basics, their turn will come for the big dance.

Still Against! Strongly Against

Coach McCarthy
STA Kids Coach

Coach, still my buddy, I think this may be the only issue we disagree on, besides breaking photos in a friends house, and I know and respect your view there and of course here. Question though, I guess for point of discussion. How do you view the kids state for 6 & under that is currently held in light of your debate points above. Serious, not trying to create controversy, but my thought would be that the reasons you are opposed to Topeka, you would also be opposed to the current system.

The real problem is mat space. We don't have enough of it now. Shared out of bounds lines, small surfaces, and overcrowding will become even a bigger issue if you add to a tournament that is already too big for Topeka. I agree with Furches and McCarthy. I am not a big proponent of putting too much emphasis at too young of an age (McCarthy) but how can you argue with the demand (Furches) to hold this event. Our nation is still the leading example for capitalism in the world. The season is too long for the six and under wrestlers and there isn't enough mat space for the existing competitors. We need to solve those problems.

Mike,

I respect your opinion also. We just do not put it on our calender of events that I'll go to. If some parents want to take their kids to Ottawa they can and one of our certified coaches go. But I will not. Normally not many go from our club. I have informally interviewed/surveyed our 15 certfied coaches and parents on this issue and many many past and current parents and athletes. A very very large large majority of our parents and past athletes share the same opinion as I have. We have around 130 kids in the club and I guess that did not occur in one year. It took 14 years of the same club director, many coaches and parents to get this thing on track at STA. Money should not be the only reason.

Coach McCarthy
STA Kids

when Kenny and his wife our club and moved I took over the club and had about 30 to 40 kids out the first year and most of the little kids we happy to go to ottawa and have fun. we had a tournament each year in Hiawatha and things were going real good, but then to mothers got invold at all they wanted to do is run things and things went down hill. they though that there should have a state tournament in Topeka like the older kids and thats when we got out of there club and started a new one with older kids and no its not the thing to have done but kids have to learn and go though growing up and there time will come and I still belive that mothers of kids should stay out of trying to run wrestling clubs to suite themselves and let kids grow up and have fun.

Hopefully this is the last post,everything is fine the way it is we all went through them 64 32 man brackets that just makes you that more prouder if he does place Ottawa always done a great job and if he's that good maybe you should take him to Liberty or any nationals because plenty of those tournaments.

Why should only mothers get the bad rap! I am a very involved mother in our club and I am all for my child growing up and having fun! My son is 5 and is in his second year of wrestling. I NEVER push him to go to tourney's but always ask him if he wants to. He has an older brother going anyway. He has just as much fun in a big tourney as a little one. As for 6 and under state being too big, and the little one's getting too tired, Don't put them in if they can't handle it. Some kids are more mature and can handle it and some can't! Besides, isn't state in Topeka a two day long tourney? Do the math here! How is a two day tourney easier on a 6 year old than ottawa? I guess I just don't get it! (oh by the way I am all for 2 seperate clubs or at least seperate practices for big and little kids!) YOu don't hold back the older or burn out the younger!!

If money isn't a big deal in this discussion then give it back to the 6 and unders or give it to whoever would put on their State Tournament.

So far, I've stayed out of this discussion but now I guess I'm going to say a few words!

Here we go! As a parent, what is the goal or objective of your child's (under 6) participation in wrestling? Is it to give your child a fun activity? Is it so your child can develop some skills necessary that they can use in the future? Is it so your kid can be involved in competition? Or is it so your kid can compete in and possibly win a state championship on the big stage?

If you noticed, I asked the question of the parent! Rarely do I feel that 5-year-olds are mature enough to set goals for themselves. In fact I question the wisdom in allowing a 6-year-old to set these types of goals in the first place.

In my opinion, 6 and unders should not be competing in a combat sport. I think they should definitely be involved (which means pay their money) to have fun and develop a skill set that will serve them well later in life. Later may only be two years but I feel that it is a big two years!

A few years ago I mentioned having non-combat competitions where kids can demonstrate their skill level. Similar to the martial arts! But, that didn’t gain much interest!

To me, there has to be a middle ground, there has to be more to wrestling than competing at 5-years-old. Frankly, I don’t think it should be about money or if USAW-Kansas doesn’t support the age group, then give the money back! To me, that’s the equivalent of the spoiled child or in this case, the spoiled parent, taking their ball and running home.

Why would parents continue to sign their kids up into a sport that we don’t have a 6 and under division? Perhaps it is because they realize that there is more to be gained from the sport than having the big stage.

My mind gets muddled down with thoughts. At times I have difficulty clearly stating them. So, I am going to end it right there!

Food for thought or fuel for the fire?

I don't mind the discussion of 6 and unders at state. This discussion happens every year, with at least one long heated thread, often more than one. I just think that the title of this thread and the implication that the 6 and unders are paying for the state tournamant is misleading and inflammatory.

According to the executive council minutes from September, the State Tournament generated profits of $18,645.06 which were given back to the state body. These profits are of course used for the good of all of the wrestlers, including and especially 6 and unders, through the maintainance of the organization and money given to the individual districts for camps and instruction. The tournament does not use 6 and under money. It is not about the money. The state retains $10 from each sanctioned competitor. I guarantee we all get $10 dollars worth back from the state.

I understand both sides of the arguments for 6 and unders at state. I personally am against their inclusion at the state tournament for several reasons.

First, while 4 from each district would qualify for state and may have a wonderful experience, the vast majority will be eliminated at the qualifying tournaments ending their season with a negative. At this age, the focus should be about learning and most importantly having fun. There should be zero emphasis on winning and losing. That is why we play t-ball and flag football with no aspirations of winning a state championship.

Second, as previously mentioned, the facility just can't handle additional wrestlers, and it makes subs and districts harder to manage as well. With the 6 through 16 mats to accommodate, it becomes difficult to manage from a space constraint to allow for one day qualifying tournaments.

My last reason is totally selfish. I love to work with the 6 and under kids, I really do. I love to see them learn a half and actually run it. I can't help but smile when two kids wrestle each other with smiles on their face the whole match and don't know whether they have won or lost until the referee holds up a hand. I love to watch their matches and see their excitement to wear the team singlets. I like to watch the new parents experience wrestling and fall in love with the sport. However, when the end of the year comes around and subs, district and state are around the corner, then I am ready to ratchet up the intensity. Practices become more intense and beyond 6 and under. Many of the older kids call it quits and those that remain are the serious quality wrestlers with no nonsense practices with coaches with more time to spend with the wrestlers as the younger, labor intense kids have fallen out. I like the pure intensity of the wrestling and the emotion and the pressure. The 6's to me just would water down the whole post season. I know that there are some extremely accomplished 6 year old wrestlers in the state, I'm not belittling their abilities or desire. They'll have their chance.

1413 - 6 & Under (26.6%) minority
3,886 - All Others (73.4%) majority

Try running 6 & Under tournaments ALL YEAR without the help of the other age groups. Not many clubs would even dare try that consistantly because of travel expenses and sending their coaches to other locations.

3,886 X $5(additional fee) = $19,430
Then there may not be a 6 year old division at all. I do not think that is our goal in developing these youngsters who are only a few years removed from diapers. We have around 10 to 15 six and unders and none of the parents are screaming at me to support this issue. If they do they'll be looking for a new coach or a new club.

Coach McCarthy
STA Kids Club

Ditto windjammer!