Kansas Wrestling Forums General Discussion High School You make the call...

This topic has started to reek of zebra supremacy. Too funny. Sure glad I can't lose a team point, get a warning or God forbid get ejected from the forum for giving my opinion. And Rford, not looking for perfection from mere mortals, that's why there are 2 officials! And I'll bet a coke you can count on one hand the number of calls that were overturned at all 3 state tournaments! There I feel much better. Sorry to get off topic.

I saw ZERO overturned at Hartman.

I saw numerous times in Salina when the two refs quickly discussed a situation & came to a good decision on a call. Happened a lot. It was great officiating, overall.

I know there are exceptions on how some feel about this, and I respect & understand that. I just feel that overall, it was well officiated and great use of both ref's judgement & discussion.

Sometimes the refs were asked by coaches to confer, other times they did it on their own.

I can think of at least one that was overturned. This one!

Why is it that High School Coaches and Officials can see that this was a close call and could have went either way, but Joe Fan is just positive someone got screwed? I have two theories: 1)Joe Fan saw a fast two count and can not get that out of his head. "If he threw his arm twice it must be two." or 2)Joe Fan like to complain about officiating, no matter how good it is. Unfortunately, a lot of fans think they know the rules, but have no idea. I don't know how many times in the last 10 years I have sat mat side and have heard a coach say, "is that really in the rules?" and yes it was. Too many fans know the basics but are ignorant in the finer points of the sport. This call is not a call that their is a right or wrong answer for. It was a close call, those are going to be made in close matches. I would have accepted either call the official made. His only fault was making a fast arm count. Which is what Joe Fan can not understand enough to get past.

I love how on other threads on this forum there is talk about the importance of bringing up and nurturing referees and how important it is to have "good" referees in our sport, and then when there is a questionable call made, the video is posted to this forum and the referee is crucified for making what he thought was the right call in a split second decision. Can you say hypocrites!?!?!?!?!?

Ummm..... but Chad, don't you fall under the Joe fan category? Awkward.

Educated Fan and Coach

I'll take that as a yes Beeson . bbd, the referee is coddled by kshsaa. They are the highest paid person involved in the match, if they can't take Joe fan running his mouth on a frickin talk forum. Well then I don't know what yo tell ya. Toughin up I guess. Have a productive day everyone. Especially you Joe fan. We're counting on you to keep this sport and talk forum going!

Coach?

I saw 1 asst. official correct a locked hands call and was told he reversed a call as the lead official. This would be the only time I saw or heard of this working. But most refs aren't like Keith Ashpole or Bob Warkentine or Mark Richards. Most have huge overinflated egos and like to try to intimidate coaches instead of doing what's best for the sport and listening to both sides. It's like hearing an official say "bottom man you gotta open up" when you question them about it you're told it's a judgement call. Well no it's not it's coaching. Not arguing that it's judgement just arguing the use of the judgement. Chad you sure you're not a ref? I'll bet you run around the house in a little refs outfit don't you? Blowing your whistle and calling Jake for stalling.

The bigest problem is that the ref gave the two count with his hand.The Official should learn from this video. To all the fans he gave two.So in turn he gave the two,than took two away.I think this is the problem.
To me if it is a very close call the wrestler attacking would get the two.In most cases the wrestler that is ahead is just trying to run out the time.So I would award the attacking wrestler the points. It comes down to,do you want the kids to attack,or just set back and win.

Charles Bradford

Most have huge overinflated egos and like to try to intimidate coaches instead of doing what's best for the sport and listening to both sides. It's like hearing an official say "bottom man you gotta open up" when you question them about it you're told it's a judgement call. Well no it's not it's coaching. Not arguing that it's judgement just arguing the use of the judgement.

I've been officiating for 20 years. I know a lot of officials. They come from all walks of life, have different backgrounds, different skill sets. Some, true, are egomaniacs. But not very many that I've run into. My experience is they are just trying to officiate the match fairly. I have never heard of the "listening to both sides" requirement for officials, and I would not suggest it to anyone getting into the sport.

Your example about "open up bottom man" is coaching and is not good mechanics. We are taught to use generic terms not directed at either wrestler--"action, center, improve." Once a penalty has been assessed, there is nothing wrong with explaining why--"you are backing up" and that's preventative officating and only fair. I used to tell the wrestlers "stay in bounds" when on their feet and thought that was OK, but its not, its really coaching them so I stopped. They are free to go out of bounds, just so long as they get warned for stalling or pointed for fleeing if that's what it is.

I will say that inexperienced, not young always, officials can tend to be or get defensive. Particularly if they do have a bad match and the coach is all over them. It tends to snowball and the best coaches know that getting an official rattled is not going to make the day go better. Inexperienced coaches and inexperienced officials can end up being a real circus.

I can speak from experience that there are coaches who when they take you to the table you know you've misapplied the rule. And there are others that you just know are nuts.

But telling a kid 4 times to quit backing out with no warning is what is happening more and more with the " preventative officiating" cop out. I have actually seen an official throw another official out of a tournament. Circus? Egomaniac? Or both.

So i to assume that you believe more officials are egomaniacs than are not?

I agree. Stalling is a perennial problem. When we have a coach come to our officials' meetings, that is always a topic. There is little consistency. I think a lot of officials make the easy stalling calls when it doesn't matter and try to avoid them in a close match because of the fall-out from the "judgment" call.

The call that always bugs me is where the kids come to their feet in the rear-standing position. After a few seconds you'll hear someone shout "he has to return him!" (which is not the rule) and then the official calls stalling on the offensive wrestler. That is incorrect. The rule says you must make an effort to return, not that you must return him. So if the kid is working to get back to the mat that's not stalling, even if it goes on for a while. There used to be a five second rule...many years ago...and that seems to be what some still use. If the two kids where really working hard you could have the entire period play out in that position without a legitimate stall call...but you'll rarely see an official let that go for more than about 10 seconds, and even if the defensive kid is the just bracing and preventing the return, the offensive wrestler gets dinged because of the misperception that there is an obligation to return him rather than simply to make an honest effort. It's not a big deal, but its one of those situations that repeatedly comes up (like "free move!" on locked hands) that has not supported by the rule but gets called.

There is no authority for one official to remove another official. The host administration can always pull the plug on you, I suppose. There's also no "head official" in the rule book.

I said nothing about about KSHSAA or the officials pay, I am talking about the hypocrisy of "certain" individuals on this forum.