Kansas Wrestling Forums Rules concerning a pin

How many seconds does the wrestlers shoulders have to be on the mat? What part of the back or shoulers have to be touching the mat? I've also seen some ref's call a defensive pin really quickly and another ref in the same situation not even give back pionts?

A fall occurs when any part of both shoulders or both scapulae of either wrestler are in contact with the mat for two seconds.

While either wrestler can score a fall in any position, only the wrestler in the offensive position can earn near fall points.

You may refer to the "Pinning Area" thread under the high school forum, for an picture example of the pinning area. Please note this is an informal example based on the NFHS rule book and not a recognized diagram by them or USAW or its affiliates. It is merely my attempt to give some people a visual example of what a typical pinning area is, outside of a rule book explanation wording.

Nigel's photo on the pinning area in the other forum is a good and accurate one. Nigel, you can post it here too if you'd like. Although it is not the photo from the NFHS rule book, it is nearly an identical reproduction and gives a good visual look at the pinning area.

Here is the photo once again.

Nigel,

It also includes the top of the shoulders as well does it not.

Example: Double chicken wing where the offensive wrestler is sitting out, so the only portion of the defensive wrestler that is on the mat would be the top of the shoulders and the back of the neck.

Absolutly Jeff, unfortunatly the photo above is only 2 dimensional so you can't see the view above the shoulders, but you are correct, the top of the shoulders are included.

Another example of this situation is doing a stack staight over the top of the head.

I was at a tourny in I believe Ottawa a couple years back and a ref called a pin on our 60 pounder who sat out and was getting sucked backward. His butt and lower back was the only part touching the matt at the time he called a pin. Just after our guy rolled out and would have recieved an escape. It was a pretty amusing call to watch.

Styrofoam and others. Be honest. Take a look at Nigel's photo above, which is a good reproduction of the rule book photo. Ask yourself, did you know how far down the back the pinning area goes? If the tips of the scapula are in contact with the mat its a fall. Those tips are about 1/2 the way down the back. In the rules book it shows the area stops about where the arm holes of the single are cut. So if a kid is balled up in a cradle, with his shoulders off the mat, he can easily be pinned if his scapula tips are touching the mat. But when this gets called, some jump up and start yelling "his shoulders weren't even on the mat!" Of course, they don't know the rule--the shoulders are irrelevant in that situation. Now, if the lower back was on the mat, that's not a fall, so what happened at Ottawa who knows, but my guess is that if you have film and review it (you can always post it on YouTube for us to see) you might see it differently now. I venture to guess that most non-officials don't realize how big the pinning area is as well as a fair number of officials to boot.

So weigh in here fans and zebras, did you know????

The pinning area is clear and concise. Refer to page 63, Illustration 4 for an example of a wrestler's pinning area.

Rule 5-11-1

A fall occurs when any part of both shoulders or both scapula of either wrestler are in contact with the mat for two seconds.

Yes it is but I'd bet a week's wages that very few spectators realize how far down the back that pinning area extends.

Where in the rule book, and what page, does it say hold the pinning area down for two seconds. I'm asking cause I'm new this year, ( but not with wrestling) and was asked by a coach. My head ref said as soon as they both touch.

Rule 5-11-1, page 20.

Here's another situation I'm asking abot. First read, then speak

( It is the coaches job to ask the ref, which he did, it is also my job. The match before my sons the same ref let a kid tap out when he was getting pinned and re-started the match.)

This is from a parent at a tournament as you can tell about a call. I thought I read in my rule book, that if a kid taps out during a fall, he's actually lost the match. Not a restart. If I'm wrong good, but you tell and what paragraph please.

Better yet....read first, then read the rule, then think, then speak.

There is no "tap out" rule in wrestling. You can always forfeit a match in progress, and you can always ask for an injury time out. But you need to speak up, not use hand signals. This is an MMA signal that is creeping into wrestling. In MMA it means you forfeit the match.

Unfortunately, a kid "tapping out" puts a ref in a bad spot. Because its not in the rule book, the official has to try to interpret the non-verbal signal...does it mean "I can't breathe," "I quit," "I'm hurt," or does it mean nothing but the kid is just flopping his arm around. The same thing happens when a kid starts stomping his foot on the mat...he's obviously doing it for a reason, but what reason?

Assuming there isn't some obvious injury situation (which is usually signaled verbally by a shout), about the best approach I've seen is for the official to try to get the kid to tell him what he wants by asking "do you forfeit?" Or "are you hurt?" Or just "there is no tap out in wrestling, you have to tell me what you want to do here." Most of these happen when the kid is in a tight scissors or in near fall but the offensive guy can't pin him because an arm or some body part is in the way and after the defensive wrestler has been held there for a while he is just tiring out and decides he needs to do something to get off his back or out of the match.

As an official, the last thing you want is a kid to be in danger of being injured and not be able to tell you so I can't blame an official for being cautious and stopping the match...what happens after the stoppage is going to raise the very problem you've mentioned, one coach thinks its a time out, the other a forfeit.

I did an informal poll of a number of coaches on this topic a year or so ago and about 1/2 said it meant the kid was intending to forfeit and the other half said it meant, or should mean, nothing and the official should not stop the match. So there's the quandry. Darned if you do, darned if you don't.
The ones who said "ignore it" were the more experienced coaches.

As Defref indicated there is no "tap out" rule. In the opinion of the referee, the referee shall stop the match if there is an illegal situation, potentially dangerous situation, injury or blood per the rule book.

When should a ref award a four point near fall.