Kansas Wrestling Forums General Discussion High School how are refs chosen for state

How are the refs chosen for the state tournament?

Votes by schools...coaches and ADs get together (theoretically) and each school gets to pick a few and I believe it can be done on-line. The officials with the most votes get to go. Obviously there are a number of well-known, long-time officials who get enough votes every year even though they may have passed there prime. Others will get enough votes one year but not another but usually once you are there you are there for life. I also believe that the area supervisors have some input, but can't swear to that. Unlike Regionals, where there is a shortage of refs, for state there are too many refs available. So during the year the refs want to make sure they get their names before the coaches, and most hand out cards for that purpose.

The Kansas system is often called an "old boys" system and probably is in many respects (you basically lobby the coaches for votes) and a lot of states have much more objective methods of selecting officials. In some states they actually rotate or make you sit out after you've been there for a couple years in a row. But we also have an awfully lot of very good officials and I'd say from my experience that most that get to state are competent...

After today they need to figure a better way to pick them. On two different mats wrestling at the same time there was an exact same positioning on the out of bounds.1 mat they were called out of bounds but on the other mat there was 2 points given. Then on the quarter finals witnessed a wrestler get a penalty point when he clearly was agressive on a takedown going out of bounds. He did nt get the 2 and hit the mat not anything different than the wrestler on the mat next to him but he was hit with a penalty. 1 point loss. the very next match a wrestler had control of the opposing wrestler on the takedown and was stacking him approximately 2 inches off the mat no take down given nor any back points.during this match it actually happened twice. throughout the day these same to official actually looked as if they were picking their favorites. I know this is the same thing every year but this is state not sub districts where maybe some of them belong. Stalling I dont even want to talk about but, yes there was alot of well I am not going to call it on this wrestler but I will on his oponent, stalling is what it is just be fair about it. If the top guy is not working but the bottom guy is trying to get out its obvious just call it... I was only a spectator and there was alot of I am getting paid just to officiate you can see it in their performance. Good luck to all wrestlers on Saturday, all of you are really wrestling against the refs.

Its a travesty when Plott clearly won at 125. However more parents coaches and other wrestlers commented on the poor officiating in the plott nitcher match

How many of you that are complaining have ever been a ref of any sort? It is very, very difficult. They are not perfect. They are human and they do make mistakes. We all do. They try their best. They don't have instant reply like the pros do . . .

Try it some time. Then you'll have more respect/appreciation for the folks in the stripes.

Don't hate them - love them. Without them, we would not be able to watch matches.

I've seen 1000s of matches and only a handful have ever been decided by a bad call. If an official is at state, he has been pretty consistent throughout the year and hasn't made a bunch of bad calls or he wouldn't have gotten the votes. Does that mean that two officials won't see a close call differently from one another? Of course not. Out-of-bounds calls are literally decided by an inch--a toe on the line--...how in world anyone could dispute a call like that from the stands is beyond me...in fact, I always say I never missed a call when I was a fan from the stands.....

It's pretty unlikely any official has a favorite at state...they may not have not even seen most of the kids until they got to state....

The only person involved in the match that doesn't have a stake in it, and that doesn't care how it comes out is the official. Everyone else, the kid, the coach, the parents, and the fans, all have a bias and all have their perceptions influenced by that bias....only the official can remain above it all and call it like he sees it.

And all good coaches will coach their kids to ignore the officiating and wrestle to win. If you lose a match my a single point on a bad call, it was a close enough match that either kid could have won it and that's just the breaks, as they say. Get yourself a three or four point lead and you don't have anything to worry about.
Also, officials at state know what's on the line and they are doing their very best to get it right.

I have seen several different state and national high school tourneys over 25 or so years. The Kansas officials are as good as any place I have ever been, including high school nationals. There will always be close calls, and there will always be officials who have bad tournaments. Wrestlers and coaches have bad tournaments also. There have been VERY few times that I have felt, after a good nights sleep, that we have been hurt intentionally. I will support our referees completely.

i have never blamed a loss on a referee, and never will. i have watch thousands of high school matches and thousands of college matches. the only difference that i have seen is consistency, the college referees are usually more consistent. the wrestling is better too. my point is if you are going to say a ref belongs at sub-districts (a kids tournament), then go watch some college wrestling and cut them some slack. every referee has blown a call, most will never admit it, so what. please don't lobby for instant re-play, two day tournaments are enough.

Very well said. I agree with every line of it. We got to support/love the stripes. Don't be a hater. Try it yourself. I have. I was terrible. It is a VERY, VERY hard job.

I agree, putting on the stripes helps, it helps you understand the rules, it helps you understand a lot of things including the fact that refs make mistakes, they do good things and it is a part of the sport. Anyone who thinks that job is easy has obviously never put the stripes on, on the other hand, putting them on means working at your craft. In that regard, I know we have a lot of officials who do work hard and I believe Kansas officials, the good ones, are among the best in the country. I have to give it up for Mr. Bowden here and the KWOA, they do a great job at training and educating their officials.

I didn't see the match. Apparently you did. I see no one else on this forum complaining about that match's outcome. Maybe you had a high personal stake in the match and it clouded YOUR vision? Something to ponder.

If you care to - please tell how the refs 'blew it'.

Last night at 4a - I saw a kid running for the edge to avoid a legit takedown attempt during/at the last 8 seconds of his match. I thought his opponent should have gotten one point for his opponent's fleeing the mat. The refs meet and discussed for a few minutes. No point was awarded. So, I fumed and discussed for a few minutes with my friend that saw the match with me. Then, I let it go and moved on. I figured they either saw something I didn't. Or, they made a mistake. Either way, LIFE GOES ON. This is an important lesson to teach young people (at the right time of course - an hour later? the next day? It varies from kid to kid.)

Running around blaming others for whatever misfortunes hit us is a sure formula for a miserable life. I teach my kids that life is not fair. That sometimes the dragon wins. However, lets try our best and see what happens. Win, lose or tie - Daddy still loves you and always will. And, then most importantly -- now what do ***YOU*** (the kid) do after this unfortunate event? Blame others forever and ever or get over it, learn from it and move on?

Note: I'm NOT saying your a whiner. I'm just sharing a personal philosophy of mine regarding parenting/teaching kids how to deal with 'unfair' events.

Take care.

Dean

The criteria for being chosen to do state:
1. Are you a school admin? You are in!
2. Are you old, slow and unable to get down on the mat? You are in!
3. Was the last time you REALLY read the rule book several years ago? You are in!
4. You have never wrestled before? You are in!

The system is a joke!!! Rick and Gary are quasi ostriches! Ostriches have their heads in the sand, Rick and Gary have theirs somewhere else. Rick Bowden attended a KWCA meeting a few years ago and a leading NCAA official conducted a clinic and he told Rick and all attendees that the Kansas officials system was terrible! He actually called it a "Good Ole Boy System" and he told Rick Bowden how to fix it. Rick has no recollection of this meeting. Convenient! The regular season is controlled by area "assigners". The unofficial system where there is a Godfather of officials. If you don't go through the Godfather you will never officiate in a high school event. The Godfather takes care of the area mafioso officials and if you aren't a suck up then you will never "get in". That is why we don't have any young, energetic, athletic, former wrestlers officiating. The system is messed up but won't be fixed unless all of you complain and get it fixed!

How would you suggest it be fixed? I recall hearing about the criticism at that meeting. No one can really question its a "have" and "have-not" system, but those that are the "haves" are not about to give up dates to anybody else.

I like your wit Cokely. But, are you saying that there are no good refs at all in KS? My guess would be 'no'. But, is there a system problem? Probably so.

Do we know POTENTIAL refs that meet your excellent criteria BUT were turned DOWN because of the good ole boy system? I'm not saying this to be critical of your thoughts - I'm just curious. My guess is probably not.

My speculation is that it is short line of folks that even want the job in the first place. I know I sure don't want it. Tried it once (as a young, athletic and former wrestler) and I su---- at it. It is very hard. The action moves FAST. Judgements have to be made quickly. And, we are all human and we all make mistakes.

Thanks current refs for trying what I assume/hope is your best with a very demanding and challenging job.

Will, your input probably does more to hurt the situation than anything else. The problem lies with this...when a young, energetic, athletic official does get in, they get ran out because of parents and coaches being on their butts so hard. Ten years ago (or so) I had every single one of my seniors get certified to officiate. Some would have been good, but the Kids club and the JH parents and coaches were so brutal to them they said to heck with it. Their pride got in the way of them dealing with the learning curve. I will ALWAYS try to give a young guy some honest constructive criticism in a very calm, sincere way, but it is often seen as being overly critical and they get defensive. The problem lies with the young official himself, and perhaps a lack of a true mentor system to protect the young officials. Most wrestlers have a lot of pride, and that sometimes gets in the way of their development, just like a lot of kids will not sit on the JV until it is their time. They quit instead. I see the same thing with officials.

I agree 100%. Like I said, its a short line. Who in the he-- wants all the abuse? That's like women signing up to be Ike Turner's bride. . . . Gonna be a short line for that 'prized job' also.

Dean

I didn't see the match either, but my son did and he said Plott clearly had tilted Nitcher for what appeared to be 3 or 4 seconds.

Jason Murdock

Not sure how my post hurt the young officials you are referring to. I started three officials who are still in high school this year. I encourage ALL of the kids tournaments to hire young, inexperienced officials for novice and if they newbie officials are good give them some open experience. I can give you a list of 25 officials who should have been doing HS post season and state but are not "in the system".

Rick, I do agree with your comments about tournaments. I cut young guys a lot of slack and joke with them but if I get a veteran who is a pompous ass I am going to be all over them like a wet rag if they blow a call. I also know, from experience, that western Kansas parents are a little tougher on young officials than eastern Kansans. When we have our kids state body meeting we should devote some time to this problem because a shortage of officials will damage our sport.

Trust me, the current high school system is running off good, young officials. There is a much longer line than you guys are portraying on here. The vets don't want to let go and without a merit rating system, mentoring, and evaluating the situation will not improve.

I want to be a part of a solution, not a part of the problem.

Not sure how my post hurt the young officials you are referring to. I started three officials who are still in high school this year. I encourage ALL of the kids tournaments to hire young, inexperienced officials for novice and if they newbie officials are good give them some open experience. I can give you a list of 25 officials who should have been doing HS post season and state but are not "in the system".

Rick, I do agree with your comments about tournaments. I cut young guys a lot of slack and joke with them but if I get a veteran who is a pompous ass I am going to be all over them like a wet rag if they blow a call. I also know, from experience, that western Kansas parents are a little tougher on young officials than eastern Kansans. When we have our kids state body meeting we should devote some time to this problem because a shortage of officials will damage our sport.

Trust me, the current high school system is running off good, young officials. There is a much longer line than you guys are portraying on here. The vets don't want to let go and without a merit rating system, mentoring, and evaluating the situation will not improve.

I want to be a part of a solution, not a part of the problem.

Not sure how my post hurt the young officials you are referring to. I started three officials who are still in high school this year. I encourage ALL of the kids tournaments to hire young, inexperienced officials for novice and if they newbie officials are good give them some open experience. I can give you a list of 25 officials who should have been doing HS post season and state but are not "in the system".

At this year's District 1 Kids meeting I encouraged all Kids Clubs to sponsor at least one young official. Pay for their registration, clinics, and meetings so they could use them at their tournaments. Get them opportunities. I have noticed in District 1 this year that many, many young officials are being used except when the old school method of hiring is used. That is where you call one veteran guy and ask them to hire the team. That is the best way to kill any development of new officials.

Rick, I do agree with your comments about tournaments. I cut young guys a lot of slack and joke with them but if I get a veteran who is a pompous ass I am going to be all over them like a wet rag if they blow a call. I also know, from experience, that western Kansas parents are a little tougher on young officials than eastern Kansans. When we have our kids state body meeting we should devote some time to this problem because a shortage of officials will damage our sport.

Trust me, the current high school system is running off good, young officials. There is a much longer line than you guys are portraying on here. The vets don't want to let go and without a merit rating system, mentoring, and evaluating the situation will not improve.

I want to be a part of a solution, not a part of the problem.