Kansas Wrestling Forums General Discussion High School 5 match limit

See I'd believe that, the problem is that several people in the past anytime this topic has been brought up have stated their opposition to the 5 match limit, not for placing purposes, but for "mat time" reasons. It comes as no surprise that if 6 matches is good mat time, then 7 would be even better.

Brent-

I'm in favor of extending the limit to 6, but I do not believe you make a dumb point about injury. If (and I have no idea what the national federation says in their justification) the national federation justifies their position based on safety and Kansas decides not to follow that rule, litigation in the case of an injury is probably a possibility. Would they file a lawsuit??? Would they win?? Who knows.

Having said all that, I'm in favor of letting kids wrestle 6 matches in a day despite the possible legal risk it may open us up to, but do not think Brent's point is dumb!

Merry Christmas to all%Pr

Lititgation in itself has become a "dumb point" because we need tort reform. There is no recourse for the accused. The accuser, without risk, makes his case and if he loses there is nothing lost while the accused suffers the cost of defense, sometimes a hefty burden to prove they have done nothing wrong.

The idea that someone would even think of filing a lawsuit if they were injured in a wrestling match whether it was the first or the tenth match in a day is "dumb". I am not saying that Brent is dumb for pointing it out but it would be dumb if that were the reason we don't have a sixth match. There is no limit on the amount of time you can practice so no one has ever worried about a lawsuit if someone was injured at the end of a practice. Maybe the answer is a no match limit! Then there would be no reason to worry about a lawsuit.

Merry Christmas!

Cokeley, you just made a point that I agree with more than I could ever try and explain. The accuser should have to pay legal fees if the accusation turned out to be baseless.

Now, to the injury question! That statement does make sense, because the fatigue factor could come into play. Everyone understands that a kid can be injured in the first period of the first match, but I agree with that point. I don't know if there is a right answer to the five match limit rule.

I can tell you this has come up at the last couple area coaches meetings with KSHSAA and we were told "the executive board is not interested in changing the match limit rule because it puts athletes at increased risk for injury." Now, I realize most of us disagree with that, but it doesn't look like a change at the state level will be easy.

Will---> you are in contact with "wrestling people" all over the nation. Do you think we could get a movement going at the national level to change this even though our state is not a voting member. Usually, grass roots/local changes are easier to pull off and are the place to start, but that may not be the case with this organization and with this issue. Just a thought? Maybe not a realistic one?%Pr

If that is the truth then there must be medicial evidence or studies that support a 5 match rule. Since USA Wrestling appears to be one of the most cautious organizations around and they allow over 5 matches at their sanctioned tournaments, I cannot believe there is evidence to support the idea that over 5 matches would increase injuries. And, if it was really based on stopping injuries, then they would not count forfeits towards the 5 match rules. Clearly this is about something else - like getting to go home early - disguised as concern for the kids. If that is KSHSAA's reasoning, then I am sure they would be glad to share the research to support it.

I'm not backing off my "it is a dumb rule" and my "that is a dumb argument for the rule" statement.

I love coming on here, posting my opinion to get called out by someone saying it is a dumb point then there is nothing to explain why, doug747. Really, dumb point huh. I am in favor of allowing the 6th match for the purposes of a placement match but someone out there will challenge that, especially if Kansas changes it's rules against other states. Let's hope it doesn't come to that, but I could see it happen. Dumb point I guess.

By the way, it would not matter if a wrestler were to get hurt in the first, second, third, fourth, or fifth match, my questions was what if he got hurt in the sixth match if Kansas allowed it? If it happens in match 1-5 okay, that's the normal course of things. What I was suggesting is, if we allow a sixth match and a wrestler were to get injured, might that be a liability, might someone suggest their wrestler were hurt due to the negligence of the Kansas rules by allowing a sixth match. Is that a course we are willing to take. Added risk, definitely added reward.

The only real difference between practice & matches is the actual live wrestling time.

Here's a "for instance" Practice Plan:
3:30-3:45- Distance Jog in Halls
3:50-4:05- Dynamic Warmup
4:05-4:15- Stretching
4:15-4:30- Drills (Spin, Snaps, etc.)
4:30-5:00- Technique / Practice Technique / Technique Situations
5:00-5:05- Water Break
5:05-5:20- 3 Man Groups (1st Take Down, Top Bottom Out, etc.)
5:20-5:35- Live Match 2-2-2-2-1-30-30-30
5:35-5:45- Conditioning

2:15 of wrestling related time.

I know this isn't the exact schedule everyday nor is it every teams schedule but it's close to what we did in High School.

The point being is that yes you are wrestling the whole time, but in a match you're 100% full speed adrenaline going etc, as opposed to in practice where you are hardly ever full speed the entire time. You gear up & down a lot more in practice than you do during a match. I'm not saying that nobody goes 100% in practice the whole time but I guarantee you that in a match the mentality and situation is a lot different. Also at a tournament you still have the warmup time for beginning of the tournament, drilling after that, and then individual warmup time for the matches.

Just as a for instance type of thing...
5 Matches (2-2-2-1-30-30-30) typical they only last 6 minutes
30 Minutes
Tournament Warmup
30 Minutes
Drilling
15 Minutes
5 Matches (10 Minutes warmup for matches)
50 Minutes

That would total 2:05 worth of wrestling related time.

The time currently spent at a tournament is about that equal to a practice, but I do realize the 10 Minute (give or take) discrepancy between my 2 example and that one more match would fill that. I guess it's a never ending debate...

On that note, I do agree that a 6th match for placing should be allowed, but I believe that should be only exception.

On the going to 1 day regionals for 16 team regionals, that I'm not so sure about as the finals would probably start later and the teams from farther out would be required to drive home after the tournament and make for a much later night for them, or have to get a hotel room anyway, so why not just leave it as it is. The way I understand it so far, 4321A isn't having trouble finding teams to host the regionals.

Sorry I hurt your feelings. I am just so sick of the way we coddle kids nowadays.

You are hurting my feelings by disagreeing with me that it is a dumb point. Now we're even.

doug and brent need to wrestle each other in a 6th match. easy kids, no one needs to get hurt, feelings included.

Doug is still looking for a novice mom!!!!!!!!!

I have no doubt I would hurt myself, whether 1st or 6th match of the day. But we aren't talking about us old goats, we are talking about kids in good shape.

And just to cover my rear, if you ever see me get whipped by a novice mom, rest assured I THREW the match.

"novice" mom? doesn't sound quite right does it. back to the old question what the definition of novice.

That is a good one!!! From the time of your post, looks like you thought of that on the way home from the bar!!!!!

Already cracking me up first thing this morning. And SuckerPunch, as for what defines a "novice" mom, my memory banks have faded substantially after 19+ years of marriage, so I can't help you with that one.

you would be correct doug, hey did you go watch the new sherlock holmes movie or something? i was actually already home from the bar. it was a birthday party for one of my wife's friends, so to avoid being bored and falling asleep i got on here. these voices in my head sometimes they come up with some good stuff. thought this thread was getting a little too serious anyway. let the kids wrestle, my nephew WON 7 matches (he was 2-1 day 1) on day 2 at liberty nationals 2 years ago to place 4th, the ref. on his mat nominated him for OW!!! it can be done and in the few instances it happens it should be done, wrestle the 6th match, for places only.

I believe a better alternative to fighting the National Federation of State High School Associations five match limit is to increase the number of Kansas State High School Athletic Association sponsored events a wrestler is allowed to participate in as well as the number of competition points a wrestler is allowed to earn.

At present, a wrestler is allowed to participate in NO more than eighteen (18) events and accumulate more than thirty (30) competition points. These restrictions do not include the KSHSAA sponsored state championship series.

A simple comparison between basketball and wrestling restrictions follows:
Start of practice season:
Basketball - Standard Calendar Week Twenty (20) - November 16, 2009
Wrestling - Standard Calendar Week Twenty (20) - November 16, 2009
Earliest possiblbe competition date:
Basketball - Standard Calendar Week Twenty-two (22) - December 3, 2009
Wrestling - Standard Calendar Week Twenty-two (22) - November 30, 2009
Maximum number of events an athlete may participate in:
Basketball - Twenty (20) games
Wrestling - Eighteen (18) events and thirty (30) competition points.
Daily Restrictions:
Basketball - No more than six (6) quarters - this restriction does carry a possible exception in the event the basketball team plays two (2) games the same day
Wrestling - Five (5) matches per day (NFHS Rule)
State Championship Series:
Basketball -
Regional Tournaments (Class 1A Only) Standard Calendar Week Thirty-four (34), (February 22 thru February 27, 2009),
Sub-state (All Classes) Standard Calendar Week Thirty-five (35), (March 1 thru March 6, 2009),
State (All Classes) Standard Calendar Week Thirty-six (36), (March 10 thru thru 13)
Wrestling -
Regional Tournaments - Standard Calendar Week Thirty-three (33), (February 19 thru February 20, 2009)
State - Standard Calendar Week Thirty-four (34), (February 26 thru 27, 2009)

Increasing the allowable number of wrestling events from eighteen (18) to twenty (20) and the maximum number of competition points from thirty (30) to thirty-two (32) within the same Standard Calendar Week time frame will allow a high school team to schedule two additional two day tournaments.

I'm all for the 6 match rule. When I coached I wanted it. I have no clue where the 5 match rule came from, but I'm guessing it was some arbitrary number plucked out of thin air.

Now that I officiate, I'm still for it. Would I need more money? Not for the way it was presented (16 man tourney, for medal matches). I guess if I were officiating a five dual format that went to six I might appreciate more, but I'm sure I'd still do it for the same dough.

To touch on Will's point of officials being evaluated...I'm all for finding a way to do so fairly. I think you'll find that most of the "good old boys" are some of the best in the state. I would welcome every opportunity to improve my officiating skills, however. I like hearing from coaches and other refs, as long as it's coming in a civilized manner. My best days are those that I go unnoticed. I also think we need to find a way to get more young guys involved. With that being said, I have a tough time giving AD's names of young guys that I've seen show up late, hungover, or been complete no-shows.

That's my two cents, let me know if I owe you change.
Ryan

It wasn't a case of hurt feelings, it irritated me that you didn't understand the post as it was written, maybe that was my fault, I don't know. But I am a guy, I can easily forget and move on without holding a grudge. No need for the grudge match but your welcome in my wrestling room if you feel the need.