Kansas Wrestling Forums General Discussion Kids Folkstyle KS Kids Officiating ?

Criminal Therft? What are you talking about?! MY FRIEND GOT CAUGHT SMOKING HIPPY LETTUCE.

The question as I understood it was about a friend of his that had a record for stealing his belongings back.

Disagreeing and argueing are not crimes or in violation of the law. In fact, they are not ejectable offenses even by our rules unless there has been an official warning. Touching or striking someone is battery. Most disagreements would end in a coach venting and an official going back to the circle but we have too many who "escalate" instead of just letting the coach speak his mind. No coach expects a call to be overturned but would like the next call to be a little more educated. The problem always starts when Mr. Zebra reacts with "Are you questioning my judgement?"

Well went to the JOCO Classic at Olathe NW. Great tournament, saw some great wrestling, coaching and parents encouraging their young athletes. Saw some old faces and new ones and it was just a great time!!!!!!!!!!!

I did ask about background checks for officials to a few people. One precept was that we ask that the officials be High School certified, and that the High Schools were giving them background checks. Another was that the High schools did not require background checks. So if anyone wants to verify that let them speak. Next would also be the tournament directors and who they hire as officials. Not all the officials have to be certified. What is the %?

I expect everyone of my challenges to be overturned. I don't think it all starts with the officials, although I do know of one or two that it does. It usually is because too many coaches don't know the rules and argue the most petty call, or they don't know how to act when they do question a call. Present yourself correctly and you'll be surprised with results.

On the subject of discussing objectively with the official about rules misinterpretations, I believe Beeson said it best. "Present yourself correctly and you'll be surprised with results." Which are you more likely to come to terms with, a coach who keeps a level head or one that is so red in the face mad telling you how wrong you are?

I think it's fair that we as officials have to get background checks, but at the same time I believe we should throw out the Bronze Certification, Silver, Gold, Whatever... If you want to coach take the same tests our High School Coaches / Officials have to take, if you don't get the required 90% of officials that is needed for post season, then you don't get to coach in the post season. Also you would be required to retake the test every year just like officials. They would then know the required rule changes every year, points of emphasis, and just a general refresher.

How many times is a coach questioning a judgment call vs. an actual mis application of the rules?

Not to say it hasn't happened, but I don't ever remember seeing anyone get kicked out of a tournament for properly questioning an official's call. Everyone I've ever seen tossed was being a total jack. For every person I've seen wrongfully ejected, 50 more should have been IMO. To me, this is the sport of the highest honor and it is different. You do not see high school wrestling coaches act like high school basketball coaches. The rules do not tolerate it--same with college.

Clearly youth officials are human and make mistakes, but they are in about the worst situation of any official in any sport. The volume of matches and proximity and intensity of the spectators along with the noise and overall stress of the youth tournaments can make for a hostile environment. Many of the coaches and fans are passionate, but not that knowledgeable about the rules they are arguing. I'm sure that gets old. I know it does for me as a coach.

I agree with you 100% cokeley. We have created this judgement rule so officials dont have to explain there call. I will ask the "please" explain to me the criteria that was met to base your judgemnt on. They tell me they dont have to explain judgement. I have officiated many sports. I know it is no-win situation for them. I do know that if that would not say anything towards the coaches when coaches are yelling they would be better off, but they will spout from the middle of the match and during the match. We has coaches are ask our wrestlers to give 110%, parents spend alot of money and time for this sport. I can't sit in the corner nd let an official decide a match on bad judgemnt and not question it. If I did that it woud be hard to go back to the stands and answer to parents. ESp. when there are many ex-wrestling parnets that know.

What specific judgement call are you having the most trouble with officials on?

every call a coach questions. they say it a judgement call. they hide behind that so that dont have to explain there call.

What call have you been told was a judgement call that you believe was not a judgement call?

I can count on one hand the number of times an official has told me it was a judgement call. I still say it is the way that you approach an official. How many coaches approach the table by throwing up a big, exaggerated time out sign. That in itself shows the official that this coach is fired up and ready to argue, not have a call explained. There is no need to "passionately disagree", explain what you saw, how you feel the rule was misinterpeted, and listen to their rebuttle. Don't interupt, or say "that's not what happened"(questioning judgement by definition).

While we are on the subject, the officials are not out to get a specific team or wrestler, so quit acting like they are. I do know by talking to officials that certain coaches have discredited themselves by arguing every petty little call. Officials pay little attention to these coaches. Ever heard the story of the boy who cried wolf.

Argue or question legitimate calls that you think were missed. The officials are going to miss calls, they know this and feel bad about it. If it is not a match changing call let it go.

Very well said.

Control...
Thats a judgment call!
The wrestler moves into a reversal and has a young man craddled with hands locked. Even if they continue to roll thru different positions with the hands lock and go out of bounds he still has control!!!
You ask why the reverse was not awarded let alone possible back points as the were rolling thru different positions.
Sorry Coach, yes his hands were locked but he never had control.

we need more guys like you officiating, i mean if you've never mada a mistake then please come out and help. there are judgement calls in every match, so the chance that you will have an official bring it up is often. but i agree with beeson i've only heard that excuse use a couple of times. i usually ask the ref why he made that judgement, explain to him why i would call it different, then tell him that i don't expect it to be overturned, but i would like for him to think about it my way. maybe it will change his mind next time. here's something to take to your wrestlers and parents DON'T LEAVE IT IN THE REF'S HANDS- LEAVE NO DOUBT!

I had a coach approach me this year at the Bob Smith Open in Hays KS. He didn't get all mad or argue during the match with the calls, he calmly after the match asked me to come to the head table, he introduced himself first & last name and school he was from, and just said I'm not going to tell you how to do you job but could you please watch the roughness of a few of the crossfaces & hammerlocks. I said I would do my best and we shook hands again and he went on.

I had more respect for that gentleman, than the 10 year old's Dad I see on a more weekly basis that are screaming because they didn't see the takedown I saw (why, as an example a side by side headlock out of a slide by). They are usually way more agressive if you want to call them that when they question a call rather than asking why it was a takedown.

I know many hate to hear it but it's judgment. We don't try to hide behind it and don't if we can explain the situation pertaining to the call. However if it is a judgment call (stalling, control, etc.) then it is what it is and you won't hear any justification for the reasoning other than it's judgment. Why? Because that's the way the rules read, it's up to the judgment of the official.

I myself will try and explain why it was control, he was on the hips, locked around both legs, etc. but sometimes stalling you can't explain it without just saying it's my judgment.

Donkey,

I am not trying to beat you up but I have a hard time with you not being able to explain stalling. If you can't explain it then don't call it. It is impossible for you to be consistent if you can't articulate a definitive explanation. Less subjectivity will mean fewer disagreements.

....and starting a conversation with Donkey, doesn't look like your there to discuss a call or get clarification. It looks like your there to start a fight. PRESENTATION, Will.

Will,

We can all explain stalling. But try to define exactly when stalling occurs and the precise moment that it becomes stalling according to the rules. You can't and neither can anyone else. Unlike an illegal hold, it's clearly a judgement call that varies official to official and according to other posters varies state to state to some degree. It varies depending on the age and skill level of the competitors. The only possible answer a referee can give to the question is that in his or her opinion the wrestler is or is not stalling.

stalling always comes with a warning........get your explanation then, and don't repeat your mistake. come on guys it's not rocket science. i know we all got cauliflower ears, but we don't have to have veggie brains too.