Kansas Wrestling Forums General Discussion High School state qualifiers

don't read too much into the whole PA,NJ,OH thing.

1- the population has nothing to do with the depth, or recruiting the in-state college programs do. why come to kansas, OR anywhere else, AND spend an out of state scholarship when you can find someone IN-STATE.

2- the top programs in those states are academies, some of their top dogs aren't even from in-state.

3- population has alot to do with media coverage, which has alot to do with hype.

NJ has 4 groups...plus 2 parochial... but that only comes into play for the sectional and state duals. When he individual tourney starts it's every wrestler for themselves whether your school has 200 students or 4,000.

HEADUP I can't speak about PA or OH but the overall best teams in NJ are not academies. The best team in the state is Paulsboro HS that has appx 500 students and that is shooting high. Blair and Don Bosco are top schools but they are in the true minority. The public schools, and a few catholic schools, rule the state. Of couse there can be a random year where I can be proven wrong. I don't know who may have said it but I do believe that a state champ from NJ or OH gets a sharper look from colleges than the likes of KS. If not for anyhing than for the road travelled to win it. I don't want to go through the entire process again but there are 3 tournaments over 3 weeks that determine a state champ...districts/regionals/states. I believe the strength of these states is the depth of the districts and regions throughout the states.

i think they get a better look too, but geography plays alot into that as well. of all the ks kids who have gone on to college, the majority have stayed in the midwest.

i'm not saying that it's not tougher to make it to state in these states, i'm not saying that ks kids don't get overlooked. here's something to think about, most college coaches don't ever have the opportunity to watch hs wrestling. as a rule of thumb if you want to go to college and wrestle, wrestle in the summer. fs and greco, in the summer is the same no matter how your high school activity association does it in the winter.

don't you think that population has something to do with the state series? someone mentioned texas football, you don't see kids from other states on texas college rosters, ANY rosters. do you think that those coaches look at how the state does their playoffs? no they look at the fact that they have a TON of good kids right in their own state. there's no need to look farther. the majority of the college football teams are the same way-90% instate.

to prove my theory: there are exactly 0-wrestlers form OH,or PA on IOWA or IOWA STATES rosters, AND only 1-NJ kid between the two. both are filled with IA kids. MINNESOTA has exactly 1 from OH and 1 from KS, 0 from NJ or PA. the gophers are filled with IL, WI, INSTATE kids. OSU, has the best mixture, but is still mostly OK kids. the NITTANY LIONS are you guessed it 90% PA KIDS. we all have our opionions, some are based on facts, and knowledge. the absolute bottom line is KS doesn't have a NCAA D1 program, that hurts more than anything else.

HEADUP,
That's not to say they are not being recruited by IA or ISU. If you look at this year's top 100, 85 have committed with only 35 of those staying in state. With only 9.9 scholarships, schools tend to fill the remaining roster with in state kids. PA has 5 or 6 (maybe more) D1 programs and they only retained 8 of the 17 kids listed as top 100. Ohio retained 3 of 10 and Iowa retained 6 of 7. Iowa was listed as the #1 recruiting class with 7 in the top 100. Three from IA, two fom NJ and one each from DE and PA. It's the chicken vs the egg with this debate. I personally think 5A and 6A should be one class but I also think a D1 program is needed to help show case the talent in this state.

I agree you have to get that national exposure and then take care of business at home. Fargo is good, Senior Nationals, lots of college scouts. Going to their camp, I've talked to college coaches who have had kids at camp and then they start watching their career. The one big thing is grades, if you can't stay eligible, they don't want to mess with you. At least DI or DII, now the smaller colleges and junior colleges will work with grade problems.
So Hit the Books and Come Do Freestyle and Greco-Roman,

Tom

Heads Up.

I see your facts. But they're pulled from a pretty small sample. I'll you you how to use real facts and data to support an opionion.

I think a more reliable sample would be to look at the starting rosters. Because this is where the 9.9 scholarships go. It's not uncommon for the big schools to have 20 to 30 guys walk on. Most these guys don't see varsity. For example, Iowa has 31 guys on their roster, but only 5 are wrestling varsity.

2nd - When you're comparing Minnesota. You're right when you say they have 1 KS wrestler and 1 Ohio wrestler on their roster. Don't you think it's misleading to compare the #1 ranked Dustin Schlatter (also ranked #1 on US national team) to Joel Hill ( no disrespect to him). I could be wrong, but I bet Schlatter is getting 1 of the 9.9 scholarships and Joel probably just walked on.

Here's some data to support my point about PA, NJ, OH.

Here's the 2009 NCAA qualifiers by state. I think this statitic would mirror the total scholarships given out by D1 Schools. This obviously would encompass all the schools to compare, not just 5.

Top 10
PA=49
NJ=29
OH=26
NY=23
IL=20
CA=19
IA=13
MI=13
FL=10
IN=10

Ks=3 in 27th place

All Americans=

PA= 11
OH=6
KS= 0

Note PA, OH, and NJ had 3 in finals.

If you want to bring up Senior Nationals, please note that PA has never attended this well as it normally conflicts with their Dapper Dan.

OhOo won something like 9 or 10 of these by some large margins. They did have a home mat advantage because it was in Cleveland.
This is not attended as well by Ohio, because they're is a lot of people ticked they moved out of state.


Head-UP I would recommend to form your opionion on some real data.

i pulled from real data, i just didn't give all the data. you proved my point 100% thank you. my point is anyone can spout some facts and skew the picture to fit their version of the picture rather than show the big picture. your points about aa this year are skewed by one thing they only iclude a certain year. other years they will be different, you know that as well as i do. the rosters will be different also, as will the starting line-ups. but if you honestly think that population has nothing to do with it you are kidding yourself, percentages alone will put more aa out from the mentioned states than ks. i think the toughness of the state series plays into it as well, i never said it didn't. i just feel that population, and geography plays more into it than most people like to admit.

i'm not sure where you think i compared anyone to schlatter, my point was geography, not quality or quantity. sorry you seem upset, about the facts i threw out there, and i applaud your research. but if you are going to give a total view, as you have attempted, perhaps you should go back over the last 10,15,20 years. i mean i'm called out for giving 5 examples, yet the example i gave were to prove my point about geography particularly the midwest, i'll add nu, mizzou, and ou if you would like, but i'm sure you see my point now.

[quote=HEADUP][quote=fan of the sport][quote=HEADUP]


i pulled from real data, i just didn't give all the data. you proved my point 100% thank you. my point is anyone can spout some facts and skew the picture to fit their version of the picture rather than show the big picture. your points about aa this year are skewed by one thing they only iclude a certain year. other years they will be different, you know that as well as i do. the rosters will be different also, as will the starting line-ups. but if you honestly think that population has nothing to do with it you are kidding yourself, percentages alone will put more aa out from the mentioned states than ks. i think the toughness of the state series plays into it as well, i never said it didn't. i just feel that population, and geography plays more into it than most people like to admit. "


Heads Up:


It's kind of hard to find data, but it's a fact that PA has led the nation in NCAA Qualifiers for the last 25 years. This is very consistent trend. Last years numbers were very similar. And they normally have twice as many as any other state. Please check the NCAA qualifiers for this year in 2 weeks. It will be similar.

I did find 1997 data to support my point
NCAA qulifiers
PA=58
NJ =26
OH=22
KS=3


I agree population is a factor as PA has 4 times population of KS and OH has 3.5 times the population. So if things were equal, then OH and PA would have 4 and 3.5 times as many qualifiers. Look at the data just for 97 its (19 and 7 times more). Look at last year its 17 and 9 times more.
There's more to it than just population.

ncaa schools with wrestling programs:

PA- 34
OH- 14
NJ- 5
KS- 2
PA- has 12 d1 programs!
4X THE POPULATION- 17X THE OPPORTUNITY...
ALL THINGS ARE NOT EQUAL...

i never said if they were.....

i simply stated that population, and geography had plenty to do with it. 20-30 walk-ons... 25walk ons x 12 geographic opportunities=:
300/0- roster spots PA/KS- D1
110/50- PA/KS- D2
400/O- PA/KS- D3

i know walk-ons aren't qualifiers or even starters, but the numbers are alarming in favor of population/geography. i don't think that's ALL there is to it, NEVER SAID IT WAS. just trying to prove a point, and spark interest in KS college programs. will it do any good? who knows.

i feel the biggest reason is, HS sports is a bigger deal to the people in these states. i don't have any data to back that up, but it's a gut feeling. the opportunity to be exposed/influenced by an NCAA coach/program in PA,OH,NJ is much more than here in KS, simply because population and geography.

this has been fun, thanks.