Kansas Wrestling Forums General Discussion Kids Folkstyle Do challenge matches for 2nd make sense at state?

challenges are ok, but be careful that we aren't trying to prepare the path for the child!!

I agree from a loss record there isn't any difference and you are also correct neither are a champion, but I disagree from that point forward. Ask any kid what they would prefer? Ask any older competitor if they were prouder to have been a runner-up or a consolation champion at the kid’s level, high school level, colligate level or even beyond?

Rotating district match ups is a good idea, I just think it can be improved on.

Questions, for those brackets that have low numbers, we round robin them, why? Why aren’t they seed and then wrestled out? (BTW, I agree with the round robin bracket)

I agree. I think we should draw the match ups for each age division after Districts. Example: 8U D2 vs. D4, 10U D2 vs. D1, 12U D2 vs. D3, 14U D3 vs. D4, and High School D4 vs. D1. These could be drawn out of a hat after Districts to lessen the temptation of positioning for a better spot in the bracket.

I agree, there is still some positioning going on in districts that can't be avoided until no one knows what districts they will face. Then everyone should go to win without trying to get the "better side" of the bracket.

Am I reading this right? Some kids/parents/coaches will throw a match at Distrcits to get opposite side of the bracket from the perceived best wrestler in the State from their opposing District match-up for State? If that what you are implying and it is happening, that is a shame.

It is and has happened in the past.
Track Wrestling gives alot of information and people use it to try to get an edge.

I hope it blows up in their face personally.

I knew a young man and a father who once conspired and injury defaulted the wrestlers Dist 1 finals match so he could be on the opposite side of a wrestler who defeated the kid earlier. When they got home they found out the rival was sick and didn't even wrestle at districts.

Beeson, - what are saying? if your not the champion it doesn't matter? - that doesn't make sense - why is their a podium? - why are their any other placements given then? Tradition has always permitted that other wrestlers are recognized for their placements in a tournament. With that being said, why wouldn't you want the placements to be accurate?, especially with the way our state brackets are set-up. Many of the national tournaments do this anyhow, I'm not so sure that the challenge matches are an easy thing for a kid - but it does make for a real 2nd place. We have been in that spot 2 times(lost both times). Also been in the position were we got 2nd and had never beaten the 3rd place kid (we just got luck of the draw)Challenge matches left out any doubt because of bracketing. Tough deal for my kid, but it is the right thing to do.

I think most people that have been around many tournaments that have challenge matches believe that there is a significant advantage to the challenging wrestler and that they win a higher percentage of those matches than they would under normal circumstances.

Therefore they believe that challenge matches do not reflect the correct order of placement any better than not allowing challenges in the first place.

Butcher has the best idea - let the kids vote on it - I wonder if that could be done?

i had a parent ask one year," should we lose and get second to be on the opposite side of "johnny"? i said "hell no, if you want to be the best you have to beat the best, first match, last match it doesn't matter!"

there is ONLY 1 champion the rest is "luck of the draw"

there is no difference between 2nd or 3rd- they each have one loss

there is no difference between 4th and 5th they each have 2 losses

there is 1 difference between 6th and everyone who went home early- 6th has 3 losses, everyone else only has 2.

sorry if that sounds tough, WELCOME TO THE HA CLUB!

1st place = Winner, Champion, etc.
2nd place = 1st place loser.
3rd place = 2nd place loser.
4th place = 3rd place loser.
5th place = 4th place loser.
6th place = 5th place loser.

I agree with Beeson.

Very few tournaments are seeded "perfectly". A few examples:
1. Tulsa Nationals - based on how you have placed in Roller event carries alot of weight.
2. NCAA basketball...the tournament is not based on the best 64-65teams but on who won their conference (similar to our 4 districts going against each district - 1 district may have the 4 best kids)
3. NFL - The Cardinals could never seem to make the playoffs because they could not win the division over Dallas, PHI, NY.

As much as my competitive nature likes the challenge, I'm just not sold that it really gives you a better outcome than our current structure. Bottom line, the only way to really find out is to wrestle a 16 man round robin, which is not possible & still may not give you a clear cut ranking. The only question is this: Does a challenge make the outcome better?

What about the kid that took 3rd, beaten by 2nd, but not by 1st..should he be able to challenge the 1st place kid? Maybe I'm wrong, but at some point, this just doesnt make sense.

One thought that hasnt been mentioned.....under the same thought process, if 5th get to challenge 4th, you could have a kid that thought he was going to districts or state then looses and is out?

This sport is a tough sport with tough lessons, but wow...?????

And we could have them vote if they want to stay up all night the night before the tournament watching movies or playing video games too. No, lets leave the decision making to the adults!

let them stay up late, and eat pizza, play video games, but don't give them medals at the end of the tournament.

let the adults wrestle for seeds, if your dad beats up his dad, you get the number 1 seed, and so on.

Lets vote on letting the kids vote. lol

let's play beer pong, and the winning team get to decide.

BUT.........let's make it true double elimination beer pong, just so we know who the real champion is. i'm just sayin'.

I still think the kid with the highest GPA gets seeded first. Now, if my son wasn't pulling straight A's in the classroom, I might have to rethink my thought process.

The kids can vote when thay are at state weigh-in. Who wants to argue with that? It's simple!

name: BUTCHER

age: 8

weight: 55

yes / no: yes

How about the child does what the adult tells them to. Even more simple. Do the kids get to vote on what goes on at the Brawler practice?