Kansas Wrestling Forums General Discussion High School 4A split proposal passed, but not for wrestling

DATE: June 4, 2013

TO: KSHSAA Board of Director members, Member School Superintendents, Senior High Principals, and Athletic Directors

FROM: Gary Musselman, KSHSAA Executive Director

RE: CLASS 4A RECLASSIFICATION PROPOSAL VOTING RESULTS

As indicated in the memo you received last April, ballots from KSHSAA Class 4A member schools on the proposal to modify KSHSAA post-season competition in football, volleyball, basketball, baseball and softball were due June 3rd by 4:00 p.m. Based on the response from the Class 4A member schools, the proposal to create two divisions in Class 4A received the required 33 votes needed from the 64 schools voting.

As a result, the proposal is approved and becomes effective in the 2013-14 school year in volleyball, basketball, baseball, and softball. Class 4A football playoffs will be conducted in two divisions beginning with the 2014 season.

Voting results were as follows:

Class 4A
Yes = 42 No = 22 (No Votes = 21, Abstain = 1)

The Proposal was approved.

Regardless of opinion on the 4A split proposal, I think to split for some sports not others is the worst idea of them all.

x2

How much more will it cost to conduct 15 more playoff games? 16 more teams in the playoffs and the 8th state football champion in Kansas. I think we are continuing the slide down the slippery socialistic slope. Just give everyone a trophy. The cost to operate so many schools and so many county governments is outrageous. I feel like there is no longer a say by those who pay the taxes as it seems the schools just stick their collective hands out and get more.

My guess is, the lack of facilities and officials played into only some sports being considered. I did hear a couple of administrators make the same comment though.

The new American Way....if at first you don't succeed, look for less competiton untill you do. Participation medals for all.

Myself personally am not a fan of this. How would you like to walk around and say hey we won 4A state football title this year, we are the best football team in our class "MAYBE".

It's not any worse than saying "We are State Champions!!! Well, along with four other schools. So I guess not really? But we are winners!!! Kind of." PUSSIFICATION OF AMERICA.

If you read the original proposal that was presented, they recommended a split to 4A Wrestling in to TWO Divisions like the other sports. However, right below the "Data Table" on PDF Page #5 there is a note that reads, [**Feedback on Wrestling (underlined the word Wrestling) Coaches: "Leave as one division".]

Here is the link to the proposal: http://media.trb.com/media/acrobat/2013-04/229572640-26151647.pdf

I have asked numerous Class 4A Coaches that I know in person, through e-mail, on FaceBook, WHEN did you as a WRESTLING (underlined) Coach provide this FeedBack to the creators of the proposal?

I have asked the KWCA Board President and Vice-President, who I am friends and a fellow board member with, when did we as the Kansas WRESTLING Coaches Association give FEEDBACK on this proposal? When did the Class 4A WRESTLING Representative from KWCA provided FEEDBACK on this proposal? When did the Class 4A Regional Meetings Coordinators ask the WRESTLING Coaches at their Seed Meetings for their FEEDBACK!

The bottom line is that from all I've talked to, a handful of principals/ADs may have asked their coaches what they wanted. We are not even sure how many got asked, because from the FEEDBACK I have gotten their maybe was handful.

I don't have a dog in this fight as a Class 3A coach. HOWEVER, I am upset that the Quote attributed to WRESTLING Coaches was not Valid, Accurate or Substantiated!

Doug Vander Linden
Burlington Wrestling

This is great point Doug.

What about 40 6A schools, 40 5A schools, 48 4A schools?

Would that be a good solution?

Doug, thank you for sharing that. I have been told time and time again that coaches in 4A did not want this. Yet, almost all of the ones I've talked to are in favor of a split. It's obvious to me something needs to change between The classes. I think the 48 idea in 6A, 5A, 4A is the best idea, but because 6A and 5A won't vote to change the status quo this was the only option. I do think it was ridiculous wrestling was not added in with this. It really upsets me when people post criticizing the split when 6A and 5A won't try to fix the problem. I don't mean to offend anyone but speaking from my experience as a head coach it is really hard to build a team and get kids out in 4A.

Mitchell with all due respect to you and to Holton, the proposal was written by your administration and brought to KSHSAA by the Big 7 with your Principal as President of the Big 7 was it not? Oh and I most certainly agree. How could anyone from a 5 or 6A school have the audacity to criticize the concept of only 32 in a classification for 4A?

Let me be clear, I do not speak for the Holton administration or the big seven leauge. Just because I live in Holton does not mean I speak on their behalf. Do I agree with their proposal? Absolutely, for reasons already stated. I'm just calling into question the same point made by Doug in an earlier post. I agree with what Kit said as well. But, yes, how could anyone in 5A or 6A criticize this plan? It would be hypocritical.

I can and will criticize it. I think it is ridiculous there is a class system at all. But I guess we all need to feel like winners. Maybe we should make enough classes so that each class has 8 participants. Then we need to make sure we give out medals for the top 8 placers. I understand that 4 time state placers would sky rocket, but everyone would feel like a winner. It would really screw up trying to figure out which class was the toughest class. Would it be 1A, 6A, 10A, 12A? My bet would still be with 5A.

I have worked at the 4A, 3A and now 6A level, I think this decision is terrible and hypocritical when you don't split all sports. Dumb.

I'm a 6A coach and I'll criticize whatever I please as well. If I had my way we would go to a 2 class system doing Big School and Small Schools Divided right down the middle.

I say combine 6A, 5A and 1/2 of 4A and call them 2A and combine all of 3-2-1A and 1/2 of 4A and call it 1A.

However, that will never happen. I am not against a 6A and 5A combined class either!

Somehow the process of Democracy needs to be brought back into this situation.

I agree it is not good for wrestling to have a different field of competition than in other sports. That certainly is not how you grow your sport. It is apparent that KSHSAA in leaving track, wrestling and cross country to a different set of rules, seem to think wrestling is an individual sport. While I do agree that an individual can excel without a solid team, I would certainly like to think that the team aspect of wrestling is still primary. I know it is a heck of a lot more fun if that is the case. I always cringe when I see a stud that thinks their commitment is only to themselves and not to the well being of the team.

It would obviously be whatever class Ark City and Goddard were in, right doug747.

Well I too will criticize but for different reasons. I resent any comments that imply 5A and 6A have it easier already and can't complain when 4A wants to have it a little easier now.

When I coached at Goddard in the late 90's we had a heavyweight who beat the 4A heavyweight state champion in the semifinals in our home tournament. Our heavyweight got pinned in the finals by our varsity heavyweight. Oh did I neglect to state that our heavyweight that beat the 4A heavyweight champion was our JV kid. He never ever even got to wrestle at regionals his whole career because he couldn't beat the other kid. To top it off, our varsity heavyweight didn't even win state that year in 5A. He lost in the finals to the Kapaun heavyweight.
When my son was a freshman at Goddard and they were in 6A he had to beat a ranked kid just to make varsity. That's right, he wasn't even supposed to be varsity. The next year my son went up in weight and the other kid who wasn't even varsity the year before won the state title.
Those kids certainly had a right to criticize.
Those are just two examples, I could come up with a lot more.

I am not saying these things to try to imply that 5A and 6A are tougher or the toughest. I am saying they are plenty tough enough as it is already and they are certainly as tough as 4A right now. Someone in 4A could certainly spin it the other way with some examples of their own. It just depends on the year and weight. But if you are 4A and you have never wrestled or coached in 5A or 6A then you don't know what you are talking about when you imply that 5A and 6A should be combined or are not tough enough or don't have a right to criticize while 4A does have a right.
I am saying focus on the 4A issue and not drag the 5A/6A issue in. Get over it. Quality will always be more important than quantity.

And I did not just hijack the thread, that was already done.

But everyone have a great day!

I cannot help but notice that it is mostly 5A and 6A that think it is not right that 4A is divided. I also notice some of the ones clamoring for a bigger mountain to climb have yet to conquer the hill they have. Kind of interesting!