Kansas Wrestling Forums General Discussion High School Coaches on Criteria

Coaches, I would like to have some opinions on criteria for seeding meetings in the regular season. There has been some discussion here on some things that people thought were not fair. At the Basehor Tourney things are always very tough to seed there because of the wealth of good wrestlers in attendance and the fact that they are from very diverse locations and histories. I would love some ideas and feedback on what you think and what you have seen that would give us some new ideas and thoughts.

By the way my email is in my info file on here feel free to email me on this subject especially if you are coaches that compete in the Bobcat Classic.

Well, I don't know how to solve the issue, but here are some thoughts. Head to head should take priority of everything, including returning state champ. People look at records first in the seeding meeting. Why? You penalize people who wrestle tougher competition and want to get better, and reward those who try and find duals and tournaments that they know they can win a mojority of the time. I would agree that a returning state placer is a good criteria, but not a state qualifier. A lot of good wrestlers were left at home in 4a Goodland last weekend that would have qualified. Conversely, some people qualified that would not have if they wrestled at a regional like Goodland. No easy solution, just wanted to put my thoughts out there.

Thank you for your comments.

I like the fact that there is not a set of concrete guidelines to follow for seeding. After all how much fun would the seeding meetings be with out a few heated arguments.

The cream will always rise to the top, it just may have a tougher time getting there with a poor seed.

lol that is one way of looking at it but a lot of those guys in that meeting are younger and stronger than I am and I would have a tough time fighting them off lol. The reason Joe put me in charge of that meeting is that he knows I have already made everyone mad at some point so there is no harm in them all being mad at me again lol. It is a tough tourney to seed and we are always trying to improve how we do things.

I agree that record should be secondary to head-to-head competition, and probably even to common opponent, but I think we also need to institute a little common sense.
At the Regional seeding meeting, Kid A is 24-2, Kid B is 18-14. In our first scenerio, Kid A was beating Kid B 14-1 in the third period when Kid B slipped a throw, caught Kid A in a bad position and pinned him. Is Kid B really better? Well, no, but we HAVE to take that one match that way.
In our second scenerio, Kid A and Kid B have not met, but Kid A did have the same thing happen to him against Kid C. Kid C (who by the way has a losing record) lost a close match along the way that season to Kid B, whose coach now runs into the seeding meeting screaming "Common Opponent, Common Opponent!!!" Please.
No, records should not be what you start with when it comes to seeding, but when it comes to head-to-head and common opponent, let's use a little logic and common sense.

I agree with all the above comments. As I stated in an earlier post I think a win should be a win. Slip, no slip, 1 point, overtime, whatever. Other wise you'll get "well he was sick" or "he was having family problems" or "he was on his period that day". It will never end. There is no "should have won" category only wins and losses. If kids goofs up,(as they often do) then they must suffer the consequences, even if it costs them a seed. Maybe they will learn and not slip the next time, right? If you come to a sticking point, go to a draw for that seed.
(I hope no one gets angry at my comments I'm just having fun with the debate).
If wrestler A wrestles wrestler B at 3:00 P.M. on a train North bound for Chicago, and Wrestler C wrestles wrestler D at 4:00 P.M.on a South bound train...Which seeding meeting will last the longest?

We offered a draw for seed at Basehor at 171 but neither coach would agree to one and I would not have either had I been them. Don't worry about making anyone mad it is feedback we are looking for. I would say we are trying to seperate wrestlers here, and sometimes things that happened in matches do matter and kids can change a lot in a year. A case in point is Davis from Rose Hill who got beat out of state last year but this year has beaten the state champ three times. Sometimes kids change in a year. Going back a year or more for criteria is problematic in the real world at times. Just a thought and thanks for yours.

I thought the bobcat was ran smoothly. Both the seeding meetings and the tournament. The seeding criteria worked fine.

My question is why doesn't a head to head from the previous year count if the wrestlers have no 'current' commen opponents or head to head matches? I know that wrestlers improve tenfold over one year but using this would allow a resolution to some arguments....including the 171lb bobcat issue. But you know what, if you are the best, than you will win them all no matter what seed you are.

Well in regards to the Bobcat meeting, Troy and I gave that a lot of thought in the weeks preceeding that meeting. One thought we had was that if we went back to previous year or years head to head and common opponent that we were making an avenue to open up a lot of back and forth that would be both irrelevant in some cases and unfair to a lot of the teams that were not there the year before and/or were from regions that would not lend themselves to common opponents or head to heads thus excluding all of them from those arguments. We knew 171 would be problematic because of that but in our minds that did not balance out the problems that would be created unfairly at some of the other weights. I am not saying we were right because I guess not knowing is the reason I am looking for feedback here, but that was what the thinking was.

that makes sense. If you give some candy to one kid, you have to give candy to every kid. So last years head to head would have resolved 171 lbs but probably would have led to more arguments/time spent in other brackets.

We met one night and discussed it and it was a quandry for us. Troy Hodges, Joe Keeler, and I in a quandry is not a pretty sight lol. It was a tough little puzzle but we will try to always improve on it. I am going to try to talk with all the coaches involved for next year as we will probably have some new peices to that puzzle next year.

Personally - you should only separate top two - everybody else will find their own level.

Thoughts for seeding criteria:

1) Head to head - regardless (but within the current year. Last year is just that - last year)
2) Common opponent - only if the opponent is good enough to base it on
3) Record - regardless of competition faced.


On the lighter side:

1) Ability of coach to: a - yell loudest
b.- whine better
c.- 'trivia' you to death
d.- hold his breath
2) 1 'mercy seed' per coach - just to shut them up if needed (sort of like a mulligan in golf - coaches can buy more if they need them)
3) 1 'achievement seed' for any coach who comes equipped with calculator (to plan team points gained or loss due to seeds), yearbooks (for research on past records) or the RVW (Rip Van Winkel) who's only there to drink coffee and eat donuts (that's got to earn a seed somewhere).

Have fun with it.

Tim

lol I liked all the last ones including how good looking his mom is, that always works. Thanks Tim for your input.

I love the one where a coach says my kid beat yours in kid wrestling. That always works lol.

Need some other thoughts.

I tell you what,,i have been in some really WEIRD seeding meetings. Coach LaMar from Silver Lake once got a kid seeded first in the region that had like 3 matches for the year and a losing record to boot,,,i will be damned if the kid did not win it and place that year at state but boy what a deal,,,hats off to Harry. But had the kid not gotten the seed,,no doubt would have been left at home,,,

i love the coaches that pull up kids wrestling and also the out of state move in kids,,,how many **** out of state wrestling champions are there,

Yep you hear a lot of things and heck I don't blame them. I tried everything I could to get mine seeded to and I know it is their job to do the best they can for their kids. For as tough a meeting as ours is in the Bobcat the coaches do a wonderful job. They have their information in order and they do a great job in doing the best for their kids and still getting along. Its all parrt of the game lol and a great part of it I enjoy it too.

This is a story my coach told me, I don't know if it's true or not. There was another coach that wanted his wrestler seated first and my coach wanted me seated first. They went back and forth for some time so my coach finally told him "Fine" match them both up first round. This is what happened. This might help the seating meetings go a little faster.

Ps. I stuck the guy in the first round.