Kansas Wrestling Forums General Discussion High School Rough style of Wrestling

Alright just wondering what everyone thinks makes wrestler wrestle rough?

There are a lot of things that come to mind like -

coaching- maybe the coach teaches rough play
winning at all cost- pressure and having to win
personality- just rough person in life

I know from time to time I got physical with another wrestler but only after he was rough or dirty with me. I have seen a lot of kids that wrestler to intimidate their opponent. I think it might be a good move as some wrestlers are just afraid of getting hurt- personally- the rougher a kid got with me the more relaxed I was in the match. They usually didn't have the skilled moves just tried to out physical me.

I believe there is a difference in physical wrestling and cheap shotting. As in higher levels of wrestling you have to be a little physical to get your opponent off balance or you will get countered to death.

Coach Peterman

grind vs. slick wrestling

Iowa in your face
vs.
OSU

I personally like rough wrestling....You have to kepp it together when your getting your head banged. The roughness makes the match more mental. Especially when someone has a real square stance-you gatta bang em a little to get em off balance and create an angle to score from. It also makes a person quit stalling and start wrestling.

Quite often I hear people say so and so is a rough wrestler and upon further review, the wrestler is an aggressive freestyle/greco participant. In those two styles, initiating action is rewarded, something "folkstyle only" wrestlers know little about.

I coach "banging on a kid." A kid that bangs on an opponent will win a good percentage of his matches as they break a kid mentally. It's the classic fight or flight analogy.

Who's to say when someone is being too aggressive? Only the official can make that determination and quite often, it's not in favor of the wrestler that thinks the opponent was too rough. This is wrestling - not ballet.

Anybody ever hear of a little girl from abiline by the name of Jake Kraigbaum? How about his sister Ross Taplin? Two of the "ruffest" wrestlers I know. Of course on the other side was Tanner Gardner and Cody Garcia who just plain out-quicked and out wrestled their opponents. Who do you guys think was a better wrestler, Garcia or Kraigbaum?

garcia

At Hill City we have the Hammer Drill, where for 1 minute you "hammer" on your opponent. Mainly it's hitting them on the head and face with your forarm trying to get them out of position, teaching...
1) Be physical with your opponent
2) Stay in good position when getting beat on
I believe it has helped me in trying to get my opponent out of position.

Garcia would have beatin Kriegbuam by a major decision his senior year. He was the most determined wrestler i have ever seen.

Our sport today evolved from the Olympic sport of Pankration. Pankration involved not only grappling , but also punching and kicking.
Wrestling was never intended to be a pretty sport, it is a contact sport! Much of what is considered dirty wrestling is just good hard wrestling, and granted there is some dirty wrestling that goes on.
I believe that here in Kansas we have become used to a little softer style of wrestling and if you happen to travel to a national tournament you would see what I mean. Kansas wrestlers in general really don't know what hand fighting is all about and we suffer on the national level because of our style of wrestling. Our kids have the technique needed to compete, but we lack brawling abilities in general when you compare us to many other states. I'm not knocking Kansas wrestling in the least because I grew up with it.
Our present officiating mentality doesn't allow for really physical matches. Is it the officials fault that physical aspect of our wrestling is watered down? NO! This is type of wrestling that has been prescribed to them by non-wrestlers who have interpreted what wrestling should be. The officials are just doing their jobs as mandated to them.
All of this said Kansas Wrestlers usually perform fairly well on the national level, but imagine how much better we could be if we were allow to mix it up the way wrestling was intended to be.
If you want to watch some great brawling matches just find some tape on Tom and Terry Brands and then you will understand the brawling aspect of wrestling.

Some of you might find this situation a little funny, but its true.

I was coaching a football game and the ref threw a flag on one of my players. When I ask him what the infraction was, he informed me that my player had hit the other player too hard. When I ask him, do you mean we hit him on the way out of bounds or what? He again informed me that we just hit the other play too hard. There was no use arguing this call because the ref truly believed that it was an infraction. Show me that one in the rule book.
This is the mentality that some of our officials have developed.

Everyone in Kansas should feel lucky with the officiating that you have. In Missouri, they don't brawl on their feet and on the mat, if you ride the legs you are called for stalling after the first stalemate. They don't make the bottom man work. It is considered the job on the top man to turn the bottom man no matter what if he rides the legs.

Pennywise and off the wall. The only wins that really matter in a season are the ones at the state tournament, and who is the state champion therefore I find your lack of respect for Jake a little funny.

Coach Neil I respectfully disagree with your assertation that officials won't let matches be physical. That is in and of itself untrue. Most officials will let matches get as physical as possible as long as it is within the rules. Popping someone in the forehead or slapping them is not within the rules, jaring the arm against the joint using a bar arm is generally lot let go to far. There are a number of other rules put into place specifically to prevent injury. I personally like to see physical matches but not at the expense of unsportsmanlike behavior, and wrestlers trying to hurt others.

How is saying that a 3time champ could beat Jake a lack of respect for Jake? There is no lack of respect, I believe that Cody Garcia would have beaten Jake if they ever wrestled. That is my opinion, just because it is different than yours Nigel doesn't mean I don't have respect for Jake. If Cody would have been from Abliene and Jake from Hutch, your opinion would probably be different anyway.

My appolgies, I thought mistakenly read your last post, I thought you said Cole Garcia from Colby, who did beat Jake last year, but then Jake beat him at State. My mistake.

Easy mistake. Since they are related.

Nigel

I won’t berate you as some people tend to do, I think that is classless. I watched you wrestle some great matches with Clint Freeman from Ellsworth. Those matches were pretty physical and fun to watch. But, as officials go, Nigel you’re still a pup (meaning young, not bad at all). The fact of the matter is I was refereeing before you were even a thought in your mother and father’s minds. And, I was reading those rules when you were just a little tike who didn’t know what wrestling was, so I’m well aware of the rule book and its contents. If you don’t believe me just ask Clark Conover(hope the spelling is correct).
I would gather to say that I’ve probably had a little more experience wrestling and officiating at the national level than you have seen yet. I’ve had the pleasure of officiating with Don and Scott Sondergrath who were olympic level officials, way before your time, and I’m telling you Kansas Wrestling is not as physical as you might think. Better yet ask Brandon Pfitzenmiere(I know the spelling is not right on this one). Brandon was the best kid (technique wise) in his weight class at high school national his senior year and placed 4th. Brandon was one of the slickest kids on his feet that I have ever seen, but he lacked some brawling skills at the national tournament and it cost him a national title. Brandon was a great wrestler and learned very quickly in Pittsburgh that he needed to step it up to compete at that level. As you read in my last post I don’t blame the officials for our style of wrestling in Kansas. I think that our restrictions have been imposed on us by people who really don’t understand that wrestling is a form of physical combat turned sport, and not ballet. I do appreciate those offcials that let the kids get after it, even though lately its been my kids taking the brunt of the beatings.

Wrestling has changed over the years. It is not how it used to be nor how it will be in the future. Old school versus New school. Coaching is not the same as being a referee. Some great ref's make horrible coaches and some great coaches make some horrible ref's. When someone finds where they are supposed to be in that mix, they can rely on past experiences in either field but cannot claim they know it all just because they have done both. Just means they have been there, done that, got the t-shirt and life goes on.

Now Nigel, you know I have defended you a couple of times, buuuttttt...I gotta call ya on this one. You're changing your position a bit too much on a serious topic.

In another stream you admitted to awarding the point to the defender when the attacker unintentionally "got too rough". You even approach the notion that a wrestler (at some level) should be "gentle" in that same stream. This is just a portion of that stream to remind you...

Another stream:
While I respected you for standing your ground then and there, in that match and on the stream, I am now very dissappointed and confused by your inconsistency. You are an official with an official influence on the outcome of a match. You should not waiver the slightest.

Nigel,
If you need the reference to ponder further...to be sure...check your recent posts for:

Topic: Kids Folkstyle/Topeka tourney- what was missing?

or go to - http://www.usawks.com/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=002918

I would never want to see High School wrestling become the WWE. When I started the post I was concerned with safety of the wrestlers. At regionals I saw a kid get slammed to the matt pretty hard and uncalled for and nothing was called. I also seen 2 shoulder and a wrist get popped out of place without anything being done. Wrestling is a tough sport and things will happen but rough play and teaching kids to get over physical is not in good standings with me. Good Tough wrestling is alright but slamming someone or tryring to hurt your opponent is not. If you want to fight then sign up for Boxing. I understand there will be some pain involved in wrestling but for kids to come out and try to hurt others isn't right.

Mr. Fauset,

I'm sure as you have posted my earlier posts that you read the entire posts, where I specifically stated that although I do like physical styles of wrestling, I only allow it within the confines of the rule. As it relates to a call I made against a wrestler, dropping someone on their head and back in a rough manner is not within these rules and thus the call was made.

When I say "physical" matches, I mean one where there is constant action, a lot of flow to them, lots of energy, one where the top man is running a really deep half and just can't quite get the bottom man over and then the bottom man stands up with all his might just to get an escape, that is the type of physical I am talking about. As opposed to one guy taking the other down and then they lay on each other the whole match. What I am not talking about it people who like to pressure on the arm with an arm bar, but don't really try to turn it. Im not talking about lifting someone in the air and slamming them down. And im not talking trying to hurt someone.

Scooby feelings somewhat mirror mine. When it comes to judgement its not always black and white. I try to be as consistant as possible, but everytime a situation occurs there is a potential for a call to go one way or another. Thats the nature of judgement calls, sometimes what looks like a hard slam at one point may not look the same at another, but if you broke it down scientifically you might find out that one slam had more velocity than another.