Kansas Wrestling
Posted By: kvpxyt Freshman vs 8th graders - 03/14/07 02:31 PM
Any big upsets in Subs? Any 8th graders look like contenders this year? Other than Bryce Hood were there any other 8th graders that won state last year?
Posted By: Cokeley Re: Freshman vs 8th graders - 03/14/07 07:23 PM
Above 100 I believe Bryce was one of five kids who placed in 14U who were not cadet aged wrestlers. It is tough for the eighth graders to compete with those who have had one year of varsity experience. They practice five days a week, they wrestle two minute periods and they wrestle kids who could be three years older than them.
Posted By: windjammer Re: Freshman vs 8th graders - 03/14/07 08:21 PM
I don't know how many are cadet aged, but there were a lot more than five 8th graders that placed last year. It is a disadvantage as an 8th grader though.
Posted By: TheTiger Re: Freshman vs 8th graders - 03/15/07 03:22 AM
8th graders practice 5 days a week too in middle school. I don't care for that arguement. Its an excuse at best.
Posted By: wrestler155 Re: Freshman vs 8th graders - 03/15/07 03:34 AM
I agree with the tiger on that one.
Posted By: wrestlingparents Re: Freshman vs 8th graders - 03/15/07 10:40 AM
 Originally Posted By: TheTiger
8th graders practice 5 days a week too in middle school. I don't care for that arguement. Its an excuse at best.


But that is only if they have a middle school program....not all schools do. If not...they get the standard 2-3 times a week 2 hours each.
Posted By: 24/7 Re: Freshman vs 8th graders - 03/15/07 12:47 PM
There is no comparison the preparation a freshman gets going through a complete HS season and competing daily against kids that can be 4 years older VS. an 8th grader that might have a Jr. high season that is a glorified version of romper room for 5 weeks, even the most seasoned 8th graders that practice several times a week and travel all over can not usually keep up in this transition year.

Missouri has it right, they tell the HS kids to start their FS/GR season and get better at what will get them more recogintion and help them at the next level. Folkstyle season is too long anyway.

24/7
Posted By: kvpxyt Re: Freshman vs 8th graders - 03/15/07 01:29 PM
Couldn't agree more about the folk style season being too long. My son started his middle school season the middle of October and will finish with kids the middle of April at the middle school duals. 6 months is a long season and I'm concerned that he might be getting burned out at the wrong time of the year. He told me the other day that he was considering joining a track club this summer instead of wreastling Free style/Greco....
Posted By: Chief Renegade Re: Freshman vs 8th graders - 03/15/07 02:54 PM
 Originally Posted By: 24/7
There is no comparison the preparation a freshman gets going through a complete HS season and competing daily against kids that can be 4 years older VS. an 8th grader that might have a Jr. high season that is a glorified version of romper room for 5 weeks, even the most seasoned 8th graders that practice several times a week and travel all over can not usually keep up in this transition year.

Missouri has it right, they tell the HS kids to start their FS/GR season and get better at what will get them more recogintion and help them at the next level. Folkstyle season is too long anyway.

24/7


Man, the truth is refreshing.
Posted By: Chief Renegade Re: Freshman vs 8th graders - 03/15/07 02:55 PM
 Originally Posted By: TheTiger
8th graders practice 5 days a week too in middle school. I don't care for that arguement. Its an excuse at best.


We'll let you take that one back. I'm still laughing about the glorified romper room comment.
Posted By: Cokeley Re: Freshman vs 8th graders - 03/16/07 07:43 AM
Every year a few people decide to defend mixing high school wrestlers with kids. Too me it just shows our state's overall lack of a true understanding of development in our sport. Middle school wrestling, for the most part, is on par with novice. MOST of the coaches have little or no experience and the good kids pick up bad habits wrestling kids who are not experienced. It is like saying that JV is the same as varsity and Novice is the same as Open. There will be exceptions as some eighth graders have chosen a different preparation path than most so they will compete and possibly defeat some of the experienced high school wrestlers but for the most part it is like putting puppies with the big dogs. Missouri and Oklahoma both have it right maybe the majority will see the injustice and correct it someday. I must say I am not holding my breath though \:\)
Posted By: Husker Fan Re: Freshman vs 8th graders - 03/16/07 10:16 AM
 Originally Posted By: TheTiger
8th graders practice 5 days a week too in middle school. I don't care for that arguement. Its an excuse at best.


They are practicing against other 8th graders at best. The bigger kids are probably going mostly against a coach who has to give them a half speed effort. In 8th grade my son was mostly practicing twice a week against coaches like that. As a 9th grader he was able to practice and compete in meets full speed five or six days a week against state qualifiers and placers like the Markey brothers, RJ Nill, Jed Mamie, EJ Walter, Mike Hammer and Alex Lopez. There is no comparison in the practice and competition level. A few of the national type 8th graders are able to overcome the disadvantage but the majority are unable to. But the next year as freshmen they will start closing the gap with the sophomores once they get into the varsity practice rooms and meets. I agree with those that advocate having a tournament in which 8th graders do not compete against the 9th graders in the State tournament series.
Posted By: TheTiger Re: Freshman vs 8th graders - 03/16/07 07:39 PM
Thats not going to happen Vince and you know that.

As far as the topic is concerned. Why should USAWKS cater to the small minority of clubs who don't have a middle school program? Thats both silly and dumb.

Mr. Cokely did you ever consider that maybe there are a large group of kids who don't like freestyle/greco wrestling? And that maybe those extra 4 weeks at the end of the high school season is something they look forward to ever year? I myself was a kids state champion and I didn't particularly care for freestyle wrestling. The ONLY reason I did it during the summer was to keep in shape. I rarely went to freestyle tournaments and it wasn't because I wasn't good at it.

I think the arguing about this needs to stop. Its not going to change. And the reason is because those opposed are VERY small in number and will stay that way because their opinion is silly and unjustified. It seems to me the only people whining about this are the ones that either had no success at that age or aren't having any now.
Posted By: Cokeley Re: Freshman vs 8th graders - 03/16/07 08:06 PM
What does Middle School have to do with my argument? NOTHING!! What does FS/GR have to do with not having high school kids compete against 8th graders? NOTHING!! I never said that we shouldn't let the high school kids compete just let them compete against each other. If you are in high school you wrestle 16 and under. Simple as that! I never inquired about your abilities in any style of wrestling. You are creating an argument that has nothing to do with my comments. If you think the argueing needs to stop then quit posting. How do you know how many are opposed or in favor or not mixing high school kids with middle school kids? How do you know what success I had or my kids are having now? My opinion is neither silly or unjustified.
Posted By: Husker Fan Re: Freshman vs 8th graders - 03/17/07 11:20 AM
 Originally Posted By: TheTiger
Thats not going to happen Vince and you know that.


Actually I do not know that. How can anyone say it will never change? Never is a long time. I agree with Will that someday Kansas will change this tournament series to be more consistent with the majority of states. I believe this topic has come up about every year. In previous years it has been stated that the majority of states do not include their high school wrestlers in their kids state wrestling tournament series. Several years ago the KWCA approached our Kids executive board with the idea that they would like to see the kids season end before high school state so the kids, kids coaches and families could all go to high school state and so that the high school wrestlers could take a couple of weeks off from their folkstyle season and then participate in freestyle/greco wrestling.

My son started wrestling in the Kansas USAW Kids program about ten years ago as a first grader and I started hearing about this competitive disadvantage that 8th graders had against 9th graders right from the first year from Kids coaches and other experienced adults from the wrestling community. In my opinion it will continued to be discussed because most people recognize that there is an unfair competitive advantage for 9th graders.

I do not think it is doing the 9th graders that much good either. I know last year when this topic came up I asked my son who was a 9th grader a year ago would he rather be wrestling against the top sophomores in a post season tournament or the top 8th graders. He said he would rather be wrestling against the top sophomores for sure. He said high school kids should be wrestling against high school kids and grade school kids should be wrestling against other grade school kids. He wrestled one kids tournament after his high school season and then chose on his own not to wrestle the kids State tournament series as a 9th grader. He has chosen again as a sophomore not to participate in the kids state tournament series. He has been given the right to make this type of decision for himself ever since he started high school.

I don't agree with Coach Tattoo's assessment of Will Cokeley's motives on this topic either. I don't see anything about Will's posts that is trying to not let the kids wrestle or is for his own selfish motives. I don't always agree with Will's positions but I believe his motives are to improve wrestling in Kansas for all the kids. I believe Will has expressed his position on this topic in previous years. I don't see anything about his position on this topic that indicates he is trying to live his life thru his kids. I believe he is very involved with his kids like most of us in the wrestling community are. In general it is a good thing in our society when parents are involved in their kids lives. I applaud him and other parents who are very involved with their kids. From what I know of Will Cokeley though I believe his interest in wrestling extends beyond his own kids.

I believe Will Cokeley is a wrestling person who is thinking outside the box to try to improve Kansas wrestling. He is willing to stick his neck out to express his outside the box thinking. I think wrestling needs people willing to think outside the box and express those opinions. Let's face it is the general sporting public more interested in our NCAA college wrestling finals this weekend or in the basketball rounds of 64 and 32 this weekend? I hear people in the community talking about the basketball tournament frequently. I never hear anyone outside the wrestling community discussing the NCAA wrestling tournament. All I am trying to say here is that maybe some outside the box thinking is good for wrestling and maybe we should be encouraging it instead of attributing selfish motives to it.
Posted By: sportsfan02 Re: Freshman vs 8th graders - 03/17/07 12:49 PM
 Originally Posted By: Husker Fan

I agree with Will that someday Kansas will change this tournament series to be more consistent with the majority of states. I believe this topic has come up about every year. In previous years it has been stated that the majority of states do not include their high school wrestlers in their kids state wrestling tournament series.

I have to call you on this Vince. Has anyone produced some facts and figures that say the "majority" of states do this? They may or they may not, but to date I have not seen anything documenting such a statement by you.

 Originally Posted By: Husker Fan
Several years ago the KWCA approached our Kids executive board with the idea that they would like to see the kids season end before high school state so the kids, kids coaches and families could all go to high school state and so that the high school wrestlers could take a couple of weeks off from their folkstyle season and then participate in freestyle/greco wrestling.

You left out the reason the STATE BODY deemed the KWCA proposal unfeasible. Which I might add, you've been told over and over on these boards.

 Originally Posted By: Husker Fan
I hear people in the community talking about the basketball tournament frequently. I never hear anyone outside the wrestling community discussing the NCAA wrestling tournament.

Thanks for bringing that word and the discussion onto our boards which should be a sanctuary from it. I wonder why so many people are talking about it?
Posted By: Cokeley Re: Freshman vs 8th graders - 03/18/07 03:22 AM
Sport0,

Why don't you produce some figures that prove that Vince's statement is incorrect? Again, you needle, you antagonize but you don't really take a position. At least you are consistent.
Posted By: sportsfan02 Re: Freshman vs 8th graders - 03/18/07 09:20 AM
 Originally Posted By: Cokeley
Sport0,
Why don't you produce some figures that prove that Vince's statement is incorrect?

I am not the one who stated something as fact! Vince and I have been round and round on this issue on these boards previously and for him to come in and make a statement like he did about the KWCA proposal, is not being honest.

 Originally Posted By: Cokeley
Again, you needle, you antagonize but you don't really take a position.

You might need to show me where I "needle"d or "antagonize"d him in that post. I "don't take a position"? You seem to follow my every post, are you a stalker?
Posted By: Husker Fan Re: Freshman vs 8th graders - 03/18/07 01:01 PM
 Originally Posted By: Cokeley
Sport0,

Why don't you produce some figures that prove that Vince's statement is incorrect? Again, you needle, you antagonize but you don't really take a position. At least you are consistent.



Will,

For your information and anyone else reading this topic who might not know this, I will no longer respond directly to sportsfan02 on this forum. That is the reason I am not directly responding to sportfan02's reply to my post yesterday on this topic. Last year on 2/14/06 I introduced a topic on the high school forum "Could a Grand State tournament work this way?". I proposed in the topic introduction that USAW-KS run a Grand State tournament within two weeks of high school state. I proposed three divisions in the topic. The topic did not last long and did not generate any serious discussion. I eventually deleted my topic introduction which at that time deleted the entire topic on our forum. The reason I deleted it was because the initial response was from sportsfan02 that did not directly address the topic but was intended to antagonize as you have characterized his style. Here was sportsfan02's response to my topic introduction:

"Vince I can tell it's getting close to that time for your wife to give you the drink she calls "sleepy juice" and you take a long off-season nap."

We had a couple of more exchanges in the topic and finally I had enough of sportfan02's antagonistic games and posted this:

"This is my last response to this poster who only will identify themselves by the handle sportsfan02. I am not going to respond to someone who chooses to belittle and make fun of another person by dragging his opponent's spouse into the fray and then will not own up to it by revealing their true name. Sorry you are just not worth my time."

I have not responded to sportsfano2 directly since then and I intend to continue that policy.
Posted By: sportsfan02 Re: Freshman vs 8th graders - 03/18/07 02:24 PM
 Originally Posted By: Husker Fan

"Vince I can tell it's getting close to that time for your wife to give you the drink she calls "sleepy juice" and you take a long off-season nap."

You might remember Vince that the previous year I had posted something simular to what you quoted. Both posts were in jest and the previous year it was taken as the humor in which it was intended. For some reason, you took the above quote as some mean shot at you. I like you Vince, I truely do! I get aggravated with you at times because you will argue a point into the ground and when presented with facts, like those concerning the KWCA proposal, you simply ignore them. The newbies to this board may not know the history of some of these subjects but I expect more from you. You can continue to ignore my posts if you want but I appreciate your contributions to this board. Every message board needs a resident Trekki or Cpl. Agarn.
P.S. Thanks for not responding to me directly.
Posted By: Packerholic4 Re: Freshman vs 8th graders - 03/18/07 03:03 PM
Those same kids that are freshman and 8th graders competed against each other when they were 12U (ages 12 & 11) in 10U (ages 10 & 9) and in 8U(ages 8,7,&6). Only difference is your calling the 14 year old a freshman and the 13 year old a 8th grader. And Actually there might be some 13 year old freshman and 14 year old 8th graders out there depending on when parents enrolled their children for kindergarten. I don't hear anyone complaining about the kids who have the so-called good b-day. What about all the kids who have a b-day in Sept, Oct, Nov, and Dec.? All of those kids are older. Every wrestler is at the top of his/her age division every other year. Every child develops differently. Some might be strong now but, the others will catch up down the road. They just need to continue to practice hard every day and do things to stay in shape. Because their time will come.
Posted By: Husker Fan Re: Freshman vs 8th graders - 03/18/07 03:08 PM
 Originally Posted By: sportsfan02
 Originally Posted By: Husker Fan

"Vince I can tell it's getting close to that time for your wife to give you the drink she calls "sleepy juice" and you take a long off-season nap."

You might remember Vince that the previous year I had posted something simular to what you quoted. Both posts were in jest and the previous year it was taken as the humor in which it was intended. For some reason, you took the above quote as some mean shot at you. I like you Vince, I truely do! I get aggravated with you at times because you will argue a point into the ground and when presented with facts, like those concerning the KWCA proposal, you simply ignore them. The newbies to this board may not know the history of some of these subjects but I expect more from you. You can continue to ignore my posts if you want but I appreciate your contributions to this board. Every message board needs a resident Trekki or Cpl. Agarn.
P.S. Thanks for not responding to me directly.


Okay, I will call a truce with you on my part and I will start to reply to you again. I will take you at your word that you were replying in jest last year.

As far as the KWCA post goes, whenever this topic comes up I refer to it to point out to some posters that this is not just an idea that is being supported by people who are worried that their 8th grader is not going to be competitive against the freshmen that year. My purpose is to show them that other active wrestling community people (KWCA high school coaches) have had the idea that maybe high schoolers should not be wrestling in the kids state tournament series and should be doing something else instead. After reading your reply to me yesterday I was trying to remember exactly what the reasons that were stated in previous years as to why that KWCA proposal could not work. I can't say I remember exactly. Did it have something to do with the length of the middle school wrestling season? It seems like I remember that maybe you or someone else might said if the Kids state tournament series was to end before high school state that it would conflict with the end of the middle school seasons in some parts of Kansas. Is that right or was it something else?

As far as the statement I made that the majority of states do not have the high schoolers wrestle with the elementary and middle school kids in their Kids post season folkstyle state tournaments. I believe that I tried to contact someone with the national USAW organization to see if they had that information. I believe what they responded to me is that they have not compiled that exact information but that I could check each individual state's tournament requirements but that I would probably end up finding that very few states have their high schoolers come back after the season to wrestle in their Kids state folkstyle tournament series. I am trying to locate that communication because I normally keep that type of communication but so far I have been unable to locate it. So I guess you are right to challenge me on that one, but honestly don't you really think it is probably true that the majority of states do not include their high school kids in the their Kids state folkstyle season?

My last comment on your reply post to me from yesterday will be about me pointing out about how the non wrestling community that I have contact with all talk about the NCAA basketball tournament but not the wrestling tournament. You said that this forum should be a sanctuary from that and asked why are they all talking about it. My purpose in making the comment was just to show that wrestling needs to be open to change and outside the box thinking like Will's proposals. I think we have to talk about how we are so far behind basketball and football in popularity with the general sports public. I don't think we can ignore it. I think we have to face it, talk about it, and think of ways to change the situation so that in the long run we can start to see wrestling programs in college start to grow again.

Have a good day today and I will do my best going forward to keep good communication between the two of us. If you ever want to e-mail me personally, feel you can do so comfortably to:

vlnowak@everestkc.net
Posted By: Gary Seibel Re: Freshman vs 8th graders - 03/18/07 04:12 PM
Time for a time out. I sometimes read these posts for fun because I like the annual topic this time of year, but as a high school coach and KWCA member, I may have missed this one. I don't recall ever hearing this proposal you keep referring to. I know quite a few coaches across the state in all classes and I personally have never heard one H.S. coach lament the fact that any of his athletes were wrestling outside of the season. 14 & Under, 16 & Under, Folk, Free, Grecco, Sumo...I don't care where they wrestle, who they are wrestling, whether they're winning or losing. The mat time is what's important and their desire to get better.

If your 8th grader was winning all season and suddenly can't compete, raise your game. If you can, good for you.

Other than that, don't say that high school coaches don't want their kids to wrestle. There were no fewer than 6 (& probably more) head coaches IN ATTENDANCE either coaching their own kids or helping their local club at D3 yesterday.

Gary Seibel
Salina South
Posted By: pinkwrestler Re: Freshman vs 8th graders - 03/18/07 04:50 PM
I think it is horrible putting these 8th graders against the9th graders. The 9th graders are wt training and have been training for 5 days a week under very experienced coaches. These 8th graders work hard and then are discouraged because they have to go against the high schoolers. Anyone that thinks there is not a difference doesn't understand wrestling. Also what do these 9th graders prove by coming in a beating 8th graders. You can also talk to high school coaches and they will tell that even the high school J.V. wrestlers are better than the 8th graders. It is about skill and strength. In D1N who had wrestlers like Clint Lee, George Gillespie, Sheldon Graves and J.D. McKnight that should have made it but were beat by H.S> Some of these guys dominated as 8th graders during middle school season. How is that fair? These H.S have already had their chance at H.S. state - 8th graders do not have a middle school state - Kids CLub is their state. Don't say that these 8th graders could lift. Boys should not lift until they are 14 and then only moderate wt until they are 16. Most of these 8th graders dont turn 14 until mid year and it takes weeks to build up strenght. Strenght training should be done in the off-season. I hope someone looks at this because this is just heartbreak that these 8th graders but in so much time and then dont even stand a chance.

In my opinion,if you compete at a high school level then you are done with Kids Club. Any one saying that this is whining - lets put your high schooler up against a freshman in college and see how they do.
Posted By: pinkwrestler Re: Freshman vs 8th graders - 03/18/07 04:57 PM
You just dont have a clue. HIgh school wrestling is totally differnt from what you learn in kids club. 8 and under where one might be 7 is not the same as a freshman in high school who has been coached by the likes Chad Parks of Shawnee Heights, Beau @ Topeka High, Gusby from Topeka West, etc. These coaches train there wrestlers different then kids club wrestlers. Most of the kids clubs wrestlers are coached by well meaning parents that may have wrestled in H.S. but not at the level of these H.S. coaches.

You ask any H.S. wrestler that wrestled Kids club and they will tell you that Kids club was nothing compared to H.S.
Posted By: pinkwrestler Re: Freshman vs 8th graders - 03/18/07 05:00 PM
Eight grade season is over before the holiday breaks - H.S. have wreslted up to either Regionals and State and then come straight into Kids CLub. So if they lost at regionals the next week they are at kids club.

THey have more practice time and experience.
Posted By: Chief Renegade Re: Freshman vs 8th graders - 03/18/07 06:33 PM
 Originally Posted By: Gary Seibel
Time for a time out. I sometimes read these posts for fun because I like the annual topic this time of year, but as a high school coach and KWCA member, I may have missed this one. I don't recall ever hearing this proposal you keep referring to. I know quite a few coaches across the state in all classes and I personally have never heard one H.S. coach lament the fact that any of his athletes were wrestling outside of the season. 14 & Under, 16 & Under, Folk, Free, Grecco, Sumo...I don't care where they wrestle, who they are wrestling, whether they're winning or losing. The mat time is what's important and their desire to get better.

If your 8th grader was winning all season and suddenly can't compete, raise your game. If you can, good for you.

Other than that, don't say that high school coaches don't want their kids to wrestle. There were no fewer than 6 (& probably more) head coaches IN ATTENDANCE either coaching their own kids or helping their local club at D3 yesterday.

Gary Seibel
Salina South


I don't remember anyone stating that High School coaches don't want their team wrestling after the HS season. The issue is that in Kansas, 9th and 10th graders attempt to "raise their game" by wrestling 7th graders. They chase a kids state medal while other states get a full month head start on Freestyle and Greco wrestling. Other states are traveling and wrestling the best that the nation has to offer and our HS wrestlers are competing against middle school kids. This type of thinking is holding our state back.
Posted By: sportsfan02 Re: Freshman vs 8th graders - 03/18/07 07:10 PM
 Originally Posted By: Gary Seibel
There were no fewer than 6 (& probably more) head coaches IN ATTENDANCE either coaching their own kids or helping their local club at D3 yesterday.

You might want to check the KSHSAA rule for those doing that.
Posted By: Cokeley Re: Freshman vs 8th graders - 03/18/07 07:34 PM
I just got off of the phone with Tony Purler and he brought this subject up. Perhaps some of you would listen to arguably one of the BEST kids coaches in the country. He believes it is absurd to put middle school and high school wrestlers in the same division. As he stated, it doesn't have anything to do with age or maturity but the fact they have better training, coaching, and experience for the most part. Further, he questioned why any high school kid would want to wrestle eighth graders. There you have it from one of the best.

I can't believe Coach Seibel doesn't believe that he gives his high school kids a big advantage over the eighth graders. Maybe some of you who believe it is fair never wrestled any high school kids when you were in 8th grade...
Posted By: TheTiger Re: Freshman vs 8th graders - 03/19/07 02:23 AM
Im really tired of this subject. Every year it gets brought up and every year the status quo doesn't change. I respect Tony Purler and the competition that his club brings to the table. I however DO NOT care what he thinks about this subject. If thats what he feels than I better not see ONE of his kids and anyone who has attended his clinics show up at a kids wrestling tournament if they are in high school. I can't say that I know if they do or not, I'll check on that, but if they are/do/have in the past then that is as much discredit to his opinion as I need to bring up about it. I've said time and time again that the ONLY way you are going to get better is if you wrestling kids that are better than you.

As a middle school wrestler if all you want to do is continue wrestling the same kids you wrestled through your middle school season then you aren't going to improve yourself, and that is a fact that has proven itself over and over again. While I can say that I was one of those 8th graders who was able to compete with the 9th and even 10th graders, it was because of hard work and a willingness to wrestle against kids who were better than I. Every kid in USAWKS has the same opportunity as the ones that are older than they are. It's all cyclical when its your turn to be the 9th and 10th grader then you get your chance to shine. Not only do you wrestle the 8th graders but you wrestle other class mates. What I have also pointed out is that ALOT of kids DON'T like to wrestle freestyle. There have been a number of coaches on here arguing for the opposition who suggest these kids should "Do something else" Well maybe they don't want to. Maybe folkstyle appeals to them. Any GOOD high school coach would never tell their wrestler to turn down more competition when they get the chance. If this means an extra 4 weeks of folkstyle wrestling then so be it.

I've also seen people say we should have a seperate tournament for these kids. Ok fine I could live with that. But then what becomes the difference? Wouldn't that just mean an extended middle school season for that group, and an extended season for the high school group? The answer is YES. And the reason USAWKS won't do that is quite frankly cost and time. If the coaches who are opposed to the current system want to put up the cost and volunteers for such a tournament then I would have no problem supporting it. Its the old saying "Put up or shut up" Mr. Cokely are you willing to front a thousand or so dollars to establish and extra group in USAKS? Perhaps you could persuade Mr. Purler to do so? If this group of people who don't think its fair can come up with the added cost and volunteers then I will stand side by side with you, if not then its time to lay this issue to rest.

Most importantly lets let the ONLY people who's opinions truly matter on this make the decision ... and that is the kids themselves. The ones that want to compete are going to as they have for years. The ones that are afraid to continue in kids because they might have to wrestle someone who may/may not have advantages on them can choose not to compete. I know I did and never once thought about this stuff. I did it because I loved the sport and the competition. It never occured to me not to wrestle because someone else might be better than me. One of my coaches once told me "No matter how good you are, there is always going to be someone better. All you can do is work your hardest to put yourself one rung up the ladder at a time"

So all that being said, are their any one on here that has their checkbooks open right now? I seriously doubt I'll have many takers on this one.
Posted By: Chief Renegade Re: Freshman vs 8th graders - 03/19/07 03:02 AM
Tiger,

Those that are opposed to the current system DO CARE how the top wrestling states in the country are excelling. When Tony Purler, John Smith or Cael Sanderson have advice to give, we take notes. Even though you DON'T CARE what they think on this issue, are you at least curious why the top wrestling states in the country have decided to separate Kids wrestling from High School wrestling? During the discussion, do you think there were those like yourself that spoke up with their "are you afraid" story? Evidently they looked past the rhetoric and considered how they could improve the skills of the kids in their state.

Your point about letting the kids decide is a novel idea. We should try it sometime. Are the kids allowed to vote on this? They compete because it's the only format that is offered.

Of all of those kids that you say DON'T like to wrestle Freestyle, how many have ever tried it? Many of the kids that I've coached had the same opinion and now call it their favorite style. It is undeniable that our national teams suffer by getting a late start on FS and GR. It is also undeniable that a HS wrestler is better off stepping up in competition after HS state, than wrestling 7th and 8th graders for an extra month.

To address your serious doubt, I'm in for $1000.

Eric Johnson

Posted By: Cokeley Re: Freshman vs 8th graders - 03/19/07 03:18 AM
Mr Tiger,

I know who you are and you personally told me that you quit posting because it was costing you officiating opportunities.

Kids have one opportunity to win state each year and it should not include having to defeat high school kids who have already competed for a state title. The solution I offer is that if you are a freshman then you should have to wrestle 16 and under so that 14 and under would only include 7th and 8th graders. There are plenty of National level tournaments that 7th and 8th graders can get more competition at. If an 8th grade wrestler is to be too good to wrestle in 14U then permit them to bump up to 16U.

If you are tired of the subject then shut up, don't post. I have put my money where my mouth is while you have, for years, ridiculed my opinion you only take money from this sport.

Tony will not tell his pupils what they can and can't do but he has expressed his opinion. If you don't value it that is your choice. Tony does not MANDATE but unfortunately those who are only politically involved or just wish to assert authority do.

Count me in for $1000 to as I guess you don't feel I have put in enough already. How have you tried to make this sport better for kids?
Posted By: Cokeley Re: Freshman vs 8th graders - 03/19/07 04:14 AM
Maybe someday it will change maybe it won't.
Posted By: TheTiger Re: Freshman vs 8th graders - 03/19/07 04:16 AM
Takedown is right. From now on we should pair kids up according to their win/loss record. At least that way we'll know that they are about the same level in talent. It doesn't make much sense to have two kids wrestling each other if one can possibly be more talented than the other.

Perhaps you would be in favor of giving medals to everyone who competes too. Then no one would have to feel bad when they lose. Wrestling is about who is the best in your age and weight group. Its not about what grade you are in. Grades are nothing more than a cutoff for a particular age. I think what some fail to realize is that even though these kids might be a grade or two ahead of the others they are wrestling, they can be no more than 2 years older than them. The issue becomes how much more practice this group gets than the other. And as Will so delicately put it, how much more experience they get. Now this seems odd to me because he basically proves it himself that these 9th graders are better because they are wrestling better wrestlers in high school.

Whats also interesting is this same group of people aren't on here arguing about how we should split up the high school competition as well. Maybe only 9-10th can be a group and 11-12th? Takedown if you really believe the top 8th grade wrestlers really don't want to see better competition than the other guys they have beat up on all year, then you are crazy. You might be interested to know that there are some states that allow 8th graders to compete in high school competition aka 5X state champions. I know New Mexico is one of these states, and they have had a few of these 5 timers.

Concerning the issue at hand. Ok so now you've got two people to submit $1000. Now all you need is about 15 more to do the same. And you are also going to need about 50 volunteers to help you out. More importantly you are going to need a group of kids willing to forgo their opportunity at the officially sanctioned Kids State to compete. Find me those kids and I'll be more than happy to volunteer my time to officiate this tournament (without pay). Will that be sufficient enough contribution for you Mr. Cokely? As I said before I'm not opposed to the suggestions this group makes. I don't believe that their is enough support from the kids themselves. According to the stats listed on the main page there are about 1700 kids registered in the 14U & 16U age groups combined. If even 20% of these kids are willing to compete in this tournament ( which by the way would have to be held at the same time as the already in place kids state tournament series ) then I say lets go for it).
Posted By: TheTiger Re: Freshman vs 8th graders - 03/19/07 04:32 AM
On a side note. Apprently this "hurt" you describe by wrestlers who have worked their way through our system, seems to be debunked by the numerous All Americans and National Champions we seems to have. Names like Trevor Charbonneau, Curtis Chenowith, Shawn Silvis. I know for a fact these guys wrestled 8th graders when they were freshman. The list goes on and on. Now obviously we don't have the same number of AA's as say New York or California. But there is also a huge population disparity. I don't feel like doing all the stat research but I bet that if you did you would find that per capita Kansas ranks very high in the wrestling AA status. And don't forget that the Kansas team typically finishes very high in the High School national tournament year over year. We must be doing something right. Im not saying wrestling 8th graders is what made these guys into AA's. What I am saying is it obviously didn't hurt them.

I've seen many posts related to the inclusion of more FS/GR wrestling and yet if you look at the FS/GR event calender there is typically only 1 or 2 tournaments a weekend here in Kansas. I believe the reason is as I said before because there just isn't as much interest from the parents or the athletes in these styles. That is a major reason why USAWKS doesn't want to make more state tournaments etc. etc. In order to change the system you have to have the support. It hasn't been there in years past and it will probably continue to be that way. I find serious doubt that you will ever be able to muster the support. There are many reasons for this which I have already illustrated. Continuing to bring this up every year isn't going to bring more support. The only thing that is, if you can give people a more compelling reason. In my opinion you haven't, and won't be able to. If you really want to prove your point, then I suggest you put together a petition and of course the ONLY people who get to sign this petition are the 8th graders who feel the same way you do. If you get enough to sign then MAYBE the board will put some consideration to it. For now though they recognize that a very small minority take issue with this.
Posted By: sportsfan02 Re: Freshman vs 8th graders - 03/19/07 10:07 AM
Regardless of where you come down on this discussion, I find the following quote a very telling statement........

"Kids have one opportunity to win state each year and it should not include having to defeat high school kids who have already competed for a state title."

Sometimes, even by accident, the BS gets separated just enough to see what's underneath.
Posted By: Cokeley Re: Freshman vs 8th graders - 03/19/07 12:17 PM
Sport0,

Exactly what do you mean? What is your point? Do you support kids wrestling high school wrestlers? If so, just say that. I don't, I have said and I support my feelings whole heartedly. I don't see any BS anywhere except under posts who have been authored by SPORTSFAN02. What are you saying is underneath my statement? I would still be on for a cage match but I was told you are already collecting social security \:\)
Posted By: Mike Furches Re: Freshman vs 8th graders - 03/19/07 12:45 PM
Okay guys, I just spent more time being confused by what to do from reading this than I know what to do with. My big toe really hurts this morning and I don't need any more confusion and pain, (headaches per example) I likely made some happy, some sad, by making some edits and deletions. I am not taking any sides here, although I do have opinions on the subject. Please keep personal attacks off the board. If you even think something might be perceived as a personal attack, please use the pm button to send that individual a personal message. Thanks in advance for your loving and considerate cooperation.
Posted By: TheTiger Re: Freshman vs 8th graders - 03/20/07 06:56 PM
While I understand where that quote came from sports, the question I have to ask is ... does every kids have the opportunity to win a state championship? There are many high school teams where Freshman and even Sophomores never make it onto the varsity team. Now you can say its their fault for not being a better wrestler etc. etc. The problem is there are some high schools who just have absolute studs in a majority of their middle weights. We don't have a state championship for J.V wrestlers. So what about a compromise. what if we said that Freshman and Sophomores were eligible to compete at kids state IF they didn't participate at the High School tournament?
Posted By: Chief Renegade Re: Freshman vs 8th graders - 03/20/07 07:01 PM
That actually makes sense T.
Posted By: kvpxyt Re: Freshman vs 8th graders - 03/20/07 07:05 PM
And what, call it JV state?
Posted By: TRAVIUS.com Re: Freshman vs 8th graders - 03/20/07 07:43 PM
how many sophomores really compete at 14 U... it should be real close to ZERO.
Posted By: Confucius Re: Freshman vs 8th graders - 03/20/07 08:10 PM
I like your idea….my son just turned 10; even though this is his 4th year of wrestling, I can only get him to practice on Monday nights. He has piano lessons on Tuesday and Thursday and would rather be playing his game boy on Wednesday night. I don’t think it is fair to put him in a bracket with the club wrestlers who go hard three nights a week and work there buts off in the summer. Can we make a separate division for him too? What would we call this division?

If we drill this thing down enough everyone will walk away with a plaque. Wouldn’t that be great?
Posted By: PatrickCavanaugh Re: Freshman vs 8th graders - 03/20/07 08:14 PM
Hee Hee
Posted By: usawks1 Re: Freshman vs 8th graders - 03/20/07 08:15 PM
... or you could just buy a plaque!
Posted By: Cokeley Re: Freshman vs 8th graders - 03/20/07 08:30 PM
Tiger,
Question. Do you use that nickname because you resemble the famous tiger, Tony?

I have never stated that there shouldn't be a state offered for 16U or JV or other high school wrestlers. I am fine with more opportunities. My position is that 7th and 8th graders should not have to wrestle high school wrestlers because high school wrestlers have an unfair training advantage and it is very difficult, perhaps impossible for most, to even begin to level the playing field. As an 8th grader you only have the USAW Kids state tournament to participate in to win a state title. As a high schooler you have the KSHSAA tournament. Not all kids make it to USAW state just like not all high school wrestlers make it to the KSHSAA tournament but they all had the opportunity.

In states where 7th and 8th graders win state they are allowed to participate all season long in practice, duals and tournaments with high school kids, this definitely levels the playing field. I would love it if Kansas were that way but it is illegal by KSHSAA rules for 7th and 8th graders to participate in high school wrestling practices, duals, and tournaments.

I have NEVER advocated reducing opportunities to wrestle. I am just opposed to mixing high school kids with middle school kids at the USAW Kids state tournament. My suggestion would be to say if you were in high school then you wrestle 16U.
Posted By: AKnorr Re: Freshman vs 8th graders - 03/20/07 09:36 PM
im kinda half and half on this partly because i will still be able to wrestle 14u next year to and im in 8th grade now haha but the do get an unfair training advantage but also some 8th graders can beat freshmen to it just depends on who wrestles who
Posted By: sportsfan02 Re: Freshman vs 8th graders - 03/20/07 09:45 PM
 Originally Posted By: Confucius
I like your idea….my son just turned 10; even though this is his 4th year of wrestling, I can only get him to practice on Monday nights. He has piano lessons on Tuesday and Thursday and would rather be playing his game boy on Wednesday night. I don’t think it is fair to put him in a bracket with the club wrestlers who go hard three nights a week and work there buts off in the summer. Can we make a separate division for him too? What would we call this division?

If we drill this thing down enough everyone will walk away with a plaque. Wouldn’t that be great?

LMAO!!!!!!!!! One of the funniest posts ever on this board! Also, one of the more sad but true posts. We will never escape these trophy hunting parents, coaches/officials.
Posted By: Buster84 Re: Freshman vs 8th graders - 03/20/07 10:18 PM
This is a very interesting topic. My son was fortunate to beat some quality kids last year and place 2nd at Kid's State as an 8th grader. At the time we looked forward to matching up with some of the high school kids. He is now a now a freshman and still wrestling 14u. I noticed several 8th graders in his bracket this year that are capable of placing and winning the whole thing.

Joey would fall into the category of having a tough high school wrestling room and splitting time with a senior who took 3rd at high school state. Joey and the senior battled all season long and he split time with him. During the Regional wrestle-off he beat the senior once (he had to do it twice and did not). Joey was extremely disappointed, but he quickly refocused his attention on the Kid's State series. We have talked a little about this subject and he says he just wants to compete. I like the idea of breaking the Kids series off at 14u (up to 8th grade) , then dividing the high school divisions into freshman & sophomores/ and juniors & seniors. This way seniors could wrestle if they choose to (maybe we would have some grand state matchups). Having said all this I am not trying to take anything away from the 8th graders. Some of these guys will hold there own just fine.
Posted By: Chief Renegade Re: Freshman vs 8th graders - 03/21/07 12:49 AM
Sport0,

Why are you blocking private messages?
Posted By: Confucius Re: Freshman vs 8th graders - 03/21/07 02:28 AM
Takedown45, I am very disappointed in you. I would definitely agree that this forum is no place for personal attacks. I will take you at your word that you feel the same way and will refrain from personal attacks in the future. In my post, I was just trying to prove a very simple point. Our USAWKS age divisions were carefully thought out to be as “inclusive” as possible. They each are 24 months long and are structured to pit kids of the same maturity level together. I contend that the toughest jump up in age division is the one you are about to make.

The jump from six to eight could be described as the toughest because it is the first. You have made that first climb up the ladder and reached the pinnacle to suddenly be thrown back to the bottom. But those who work hard will survive, continue to improve their technical knowledge of the sport, and will find success at the next level.

The jump from eight to ten could be described as the toughest because of the wrestler’s anticipation of another jump. But those who work hard will survive, continue to improve their technical knowledge of the sport, and will find success at the next level.

The jump from ten to twelve could be described as toughest because “oh, my gosh that boy has hair on his legs”. In this division you have boys that are prepubescent wrestling those who have crossed over and have gained the power of testosterone. You will see boys who have honed their technical skills be overpowered by the strength of their competition. But those who work hard will survive, continue to improve their technical knowledge of the sport, and will find success at the next level.

The jump from twelve to fourteen could be described as the toughest because of all the reasons described in this thread. But those who work hard will survive, continue to improve their technical knowledge of the sport, and will find success at the next level.

The jump from fourteen to sixteen could be described as the toughest because of all the outside distractions that are discovered which pull these “young men” away from our sport…girls, cars, and jobs….just to name a few. But those who work hard will survive, continue to improve their technical knowledge of the sport, and will find success at the next level.

I think I understand the issues…but I don’t think that you can look at this issue with tunnel vision when changes made with good intentions in mind could have the unanticipated consequence of upsetting the entire apple cart. So what may happen to the level of freshman participation in our sport if we force them all to wrestle in a High School division? I’ll tell you what I think could happen. Many of these 14 year olds will choose not to participate and we will loose more kids at what could be described as a critical age “forever”. I think that most coaches have similar views of this issue as Coach Seible. They want these boys to wrestle. They don’t care whether it is Freestyle, Greco Roman, or Folkstyle. They just want them to wrestle as much as they can. You will find a common thread in each jump in age. While they are each equally scary, those who work hard will survive, continue to improve their technical knowledge of the sport, and will find success at the next level.

Are the eighth graders in this division at a disadvantage? Yes, I will concede that fact. But, is it more or less of a disadvantage than the five, seven, and nine year olds face? I am not convinced. If they are coached properly they are prepared for the first or second week of March when they start to run into the older side of the division. There are examples of those who do a good job preparing for that level of competition every year. This year a few of those examples in D1 are Tyler Baughman, Ethan Mumaw, Tyler Terron, Trent Robb, and Ryne Cokely. Next year it will be another crew. Will all these boys place this weekend…maybe not, but I wouldn’t bet against any of them.

The first lesson you should learn in this sport is that life is not always fair and right after you learn that lesson you quickly learn how to create your own justice…one match at a time.
Posted By: Cowboy12 Re: Freshman vs 8th graders - 03/21/07 02:37 AM
I have to agree with that, they're just at the same disadvantages as 5, 7, 9, and 11 year olds. When your at the bottom age of your bracket, its always going to be tough. Good post Confucius.
Posted By: deanstraus Re: Freshman vs 8th graders - 03/21/07 02:55 AM
5 Year olds wrestling 9 year olds sounds more cruel than freshman against 8th graders.

Next year your freshman kid can be the spoiler as long this is not his 2nd year 14 un. If your 8th grader is second year 14un then you should have started school one year earlier.
If the freshman kids have a USA card and they are the correct age just deal with it.
Posted By: TheTiger Re: Freshman vs 8th graders - 03/21/07 03:12 AM
I use the name because I'm a big fan of the Missouri Tigers.

I agree 100% with Will on the point that KSHSAA's dictatorship on the rule stopping 8th graders from practicing/participating with high schoolers is dumb. I'd love to see that change. I think that could step up the level of wrestling in Kansas alot.
Posted By: AKnorr Re: Freshman vs 8th graders - 03/21/07 03:14 AM
i think we shouldnt split it and should just keep it by age because that can go both ways some people might not like it this year but next year they will
Posted By: Takedown145 Re: Freshman vs 8th graders - 03/21/07 04:19 AM
First I think it's funny how the word IDIOTS used in a non-directional way gets deleted but CERTAIN INDIVIDUALS can call a entire club out and not get deleted I guess it's a who you know type a deal,, sorry was not using word idiot as direct insult,was using in passing should have used CLOWNS,FELLAS,CRAZY GUYS,something a little less insulting...Confucious if you would have started your response with that post,then would take it/u seriously but trying to be a dime store comic defeats the point of making good debate over any topic,AGAIN MY APOLOGY IF I OFFENDED YOU IN ANY WAY..................... I dont think original post stated unfair because of physical maturity,body development,who has hair/who doesnt type of deal I could be wrong though,, I ve seen several post that discuss practice time,practice partners,toughness of practice etc... whether those are legit beefs or not is whole other topic but I believe that is alot of question in mind, I can honestly say my son is in 8th grade,his body matured a year ago,strong as a ox,his wrestling is getting close,he has gotten alot better just in the 3-4 wks that high schoolers have been in the room banging on him and Im glad for that so I buy in to that theory mentioned above,,I also believe that this weekend if it were just 8th graders in his bracket he would have great chance of walking away with whole thing but you throw in the freshman and now he faces a uphill battle and he knows this and is looking forward to it so in saying that does this make him less of wrestler or needing to step up or quit whining or other sarcastic jokes that have been used I dont think so and if you or anyone else does that is your opinion,,whether this weekend makes him a better wrestler or gets him ready for high school that much quicker I doubt it but thats my opinion,I wish all 8th grade young men good luck this weekend as well as all the freshman,in the end Im sure the best wrestlers in each bracket will work there way thru,some easier than others and that's what counts,again sorry if I offended you or anyone else earlier and I hope this doesnt get deleted so you can read my apology........
Posted By: sportsfan02 Re: Freshman vs 8th graders - 03/21/07 11:13 AM
 Originally Posted By: Chief Renegade
Sport0,

Why are you blocking private messages?

Because people keep messaging me. I thought that was the purpose of this board and others like it, to message. Also, some classless person could post those private messages to the public board. So why have private messages? If I would ever feel the need to private message someone (I won't), then I would contact them via the board and tell them to check their private messages.
Posted By: smokeycabin Re: Freshman vs 8th graders - 03/21/07 11:39 AM
It is fine the way it is. Over half of the high school kids jump up in weight and do not compete at their high school weight. I think keeping it an age thing is the best way to do it. Some (a few) 8th graders are older than the freshman. It is time for them to step it up an get a taste of high school wrestling. Not that many freshman wrestle on varsity (except some of the lighter weights. Those kids that wrestled 103 or 112 tend to jump up 1 or 2 weights for subdistricts. Leave it the same.

Sean McCarthy
STA Kids Club
Posted By: Scarecrow_103 Re: Freshman vs 8th graders - 03/21/07 12:33 PM
I see both sides of this issue. When I was a Freshman I weighed 85 pounds and was getting my butt kicked in High School matches. So I was really glad to get to kids wrestling, to get a more even playing field( weight wise). But here was no doubt that I was in better shape and had much more competetive matches because of High School. But until there is another place for these High School wrestlers to compete the situation is mute. I mean where do we draw the line. Is it fair that some kids have more money than others so they get to travel to out of state tournaments and wrestle national caliber opponets while others could not afford to go? Is it fair that some kids go to the best camps and get better coaching than some of the less fortunate ones? I still remember when Adam Almauger was a Freshman and coming off a State Championship runner-up finish and lost to an eighth grade Kevin Callahan at Ottawa. I know that this was an exception, but it was a great match to watch. And what about Ryne Cokeley wrestling a 1-0 match against 4A State Runner-up Derrick Weller last weekend in Ottawa. What a great match, we will be talking about that match in the years to come. People are always going to have concerns about this issue like in high school with the 16 year old Freshman thing that was going on last year. I applaud Mr. Cokeley's effort to bring this up for dicussion but until the state of Kansas changes some things I don't think anything is going to change. Wrestling is wrestling is wrestling. Just my two cents worth.
Posted By: TRAVIUS.com Re: Freshman vs 8th graders - 03/21/07 09:35 PM
Actually Club wrestling have MORE opportunities to practice and compete then high school wrestlers due to KSHSAA and NFHS restricting number of matches, distance you can travel, competition points etc... Its possible a kids in club wrestling could practice everynight of the week with multiple clubs and travel to national tournaments on a weekly basics... maybe not likely but possible.
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