Those clubs who attended the State Body meeting and left before the business was concluded may find that they have lost one of their coaches passes.
It really is a shame we had over 120 clubs in attendance at the beginning and only had 69 clubs around to do the business of the State!
Randy while I have never chosen to leave a state meeting before the business is concluded I wonder if we shouldn't look at shortening the agenda. I realize we would have to amend the constitution but I question if we need reports on much of that stuff prior to the business. It seems to me at least some of the stuff, where a vote is not required, could be dealt with in written form, in the packets. Like I said our club stays to the end but I can certainly see how people would be worn out before we get to the business part of the agenda.
Coaches Passes for What???? I was one the guilty. I'd never been before and had no idea how long it would run. Am I to understand I was just punished for leaving early?
At the State Tournament, those clubs attending, receive 2 coaching passes for their first five entries. Then they receive, 1 pass for every additional five.
In the past, the rule was, to receive two for the first five, one must attend the State Body meeting.
Some attend the State Body meeting just to sign in and leave. Today it was decided, that a roll was taken at the end of the meeting. If a club left early, they lost one of their two passes.
sf2: I understand your position! I too, grow a bit tired especially following a long weekend. I am confident the Executive Board would like a shorter meeting too. You have made a great suggestion.
I seldom post to these forums but I feel I must this time. I guess I need to understand why I leave my house at 6:00 AM, drive for 3 1/2 hours, attend a meeting for 3 1/2 hours, participcate and actively engage in that meeting, leave at 1:00 so I can drive back the 3 1/2 hours so I can get back in time for my sons baptism and now you are telling me I lost a coaches pass.
What kind of organization are we running here?
I refuse to believe that in the end, this is the right outcome for this meeting. In the past the attendance was tallied off the sign in sheet. (did that set a precidence) I am not saying that we all should not stick around but I don't think making a rash decision today is the right choice. If that is changing, everyone needs to know that in advance.
I would like for someone to explain to me how we go about getting our 2nd pass back. Tell me we can change this and spend our time working on real issues other than bantering this around for weeks.
I also agree we need to come up with a shorter meeting. Provide the committee reports in writing ahead of time and we can approve them as provided, JUST LIKE THE MINUTES OF THE LAST MEETING were done this time.
Tom Heald
Spring Hill Wrestling Club
In addition, had I known that leaving 30 minutes early was going to be a problem, I may have been able to find someone else to attend for our club. In the past, there have been times we were out of there by 1:00. Our club attends every year and stays for the entire meeting. (except for this one of course) Now we making up rules up on the fly? I don't get it.
Tom Heald
I am in the same boat as you Mr. Heald. Both of my children had their football and cheerleading sports banquet. I left at 12:45 so I could drive the 2 1/2 hours home get them ready and drive another 1/2 hour to the banquet. I stayed as long as I possibly could. Ever since I took over the club I have been at every district and state body meeting. I hope that the State Board could understand that even though it is a Sunday that people still have children that play other sports and could have events on those days. I apologize if I caused a problem with the business meeting by having to uphold my family obligations, but for me family comes first.
Now "Are you making a positive difference?"
I voted against putting the rule into effect for this season. People should be informed and now many have been unknowingly punished. I don't feel it is "ok" to implement new rules in the middle of the game. It was originally proposed that it not go into effect until 2009 but someone mentioned that the body could vote in the rule now. Just doesnt' seem right to me... Maybe the voting issues should be at the start of the agenda.
What happens to those teams that missed the meeting entirely? Do they lose both passes?
What happens to those teams that missed the meeting entirely? Do they lose both passes?
Nobody that voted for this could have thought this through. You drive 3 hours, stay 3 hours and get the same penalty as those who never showed up? Ridiculous.
Now "Are you making a positive difference?"
I hope I am making a positive difference! I am the messenger, I did not make the motion and I cannot vote!!
Personally I think the whole "Too many coaches passes" issue is getting blown out of proportion. We should be thankful we have so many coaches who are willing to volunteer their time! I have never thought the congestion on the floor of the Expo Center was unmanageable. On the first day of competion, before any wrestlers have been eliminated, it gets a little crowded but to me it isn't a problem. The hockey wall keeps coaches away from the mats and the officials can manage their mat to have only two coaches. (By the way, at state you absolutely have to have two coaches in the corner! You need one to coach and one to watch the score clock for time and scoring errors.) Coaches pay for their cards, put in their time and deserve to be on the floor to make sure everything is going smoothly for their wrestlers. The kids need their coaches down there too. Swapping passes is a management nightmare for teams who might have as many as ten wrestlers either on the mat or on deck. Can't we put this issue to rest by being a little more liberal and supportive instead of militant and controling? If the board wants to eliminate some bodies from the floor maybe they should check to see that last time some of them who wander around down there coached a wrestler...
concurred, very good post!
well Randy I was one who left early and when we got there I had dirven for three hours and had not been to bed till 3 sat. morrning because I am on a fire department that being the asst. chief I get paid fifty dollars a month and 10.00 a run and I had made three runs sat night and I am going to drive for three hours to a meeting that when I got there and it started we were told the committie was not going to read the min. of the meeting or read the report of the fininaces.
After that I said that should have been a vote of all clubs not just a very special few.
Dist.1 had a man steel a lot of money and as of today no one has been put in jail and so its time to get all clubs involed when theres a meeting about anything important.
You said there were only 69 clubs at the end well sorry that we left but when you been up most of the night and then you drive for three hours for a wrestling meeting to help kids to learn how to wrestle and then people like you raise kain is it realy worth it, I have been a coach for 18 years and when Hiawatha wrestling club though in the towel this year I felt like someone had to try and start a club for the kids in Hiawatha mabe I am wrong but I don't think so.
One of my very good freinds from Horton had a death in his family and still he drove three hours to get paper work and yes he left and you would to. Now your wording in the post you added today uses the word may, does that mean you are going to decide which clubs lose the pass as in whos who.
For years I have taken off work to help lay matts at the state wresting meet in Topeka for the good of the Kids and Randy its time that you think of the kids not trying to make a point to the coaches of leaving early.
And anybody can write a letter here but if you or anybody else wants to know how hard it is to run a club and then have this happen call me or email at icefishing22000@yahoo.com and we can talk. My name is Tom Stone phone number is 785-741-3234
I don't think this is right. I can see changing the rule for next year or better yet doing away with the whole pass thing. Just give all coaches a pass that wants one. We sacrifice all of our time all season long to be turned away at state. Our state leadership always wants people to volunteer their time for this and that and then turn into nazis whaen its time to hand out coaching passes. I have went to this meeting for the past 8-9 years and yes I left at 1pm as I had prior commitments on sunday evening and had a 31/2 hour drive home. Why not put all of the reports either on line or in the packets, As much as some of these people like listening to themselves talk, it would really speed things up if they didn't and most wouldn't mind not listening. Do all of the state business at the start of the meeting and send everyone home. It could be a two hour meeting, and I bet almost every club would be their to vote if this happened. This is a bad idea it's going to cause all kinds of problems come state time.
Our state leadership of this organization puts in hundreds - if not thousands of volunteer hours each year to keep this thing rolling down the track - I will applaud them and everything thta they have done for the kids in this state. Right or wrong on this issue everybody had an agenda of the items to be discussed and voted on.
Now what happens when you have 5 wrestlers and one pass? More than likely sometime during State you will have more than one wrestler wrestling at a time. Are you going to disqualify one wrestler because he dosen't have a coach? Just because some people attempt to make the meeting, spending lots of gas money to make it on time, pay their club fees but have family or even work issues, they should get punished or better yet you are going to punish wrestlers that work extreamly hard all season to make it to state. Shame on all of the board members and shame on all the clubs who voted for it.
Now "Are you making a positive difference?"
I hope I am making a positive difference! I am the messenger, I did not make the motion and I cannot vote!!
I am trying also but I have to make a difference in my childrens lives along with the Wrestling Clubs
I think its time for Randy to ask the state body if THEY are making a Positive difference in the lives of KIds all kids
Yes, I agree with smokeycabin, I believe our state/district leadership does an excellent job, youth wrestling in Kansas is doing well. But, so do the hundreds of volunteer coaches and club officers throughout this great state. Without them there would be nothing for our state leaders to lead. Lets remember the little people. Lets remember this is a service organization. Every coach deserves a pass. This was a bad idea and I bet when the people who supported it think about it more clearly, they will change their minds.
Again, I am merely the messenger!
I do agree with Will, Sean, John and for that matter all of you! There are many reasons that may have caused a person to leave the meeting early.
While coaching passes was on the agenda, the reduction was a motion from the floor. I believe it was spawned by a question about whether we (the State Body) had a quorum to approve the constitutional changes. After reflecting on that sad state of affairs, the subsequent motion to reduce the passes was made.
This was not a motion made by the Executive board but a motion made by a club leader. While a few board members supported the motion it was far from a consensus.
Yes, there are a ton of great volunteers that dedicate a ton of hours to the benefit of our kids.
I recall a mandate this past Summer, that after re-thinking was changed. If you feel strongly about this issue, contact your club leader, your Sub director, etc. and let your voice be heard.
Well put Randy. I have already put an email into my District Director. I hope everyone else does the same. I really believe that this deserves a re-think.
Tom Heald
Spring Hill Wrestling Club
_________________________________
The state has to have this meeting annually for it to remain a nonprofit 501-3 organization. The intent is to have all clubs represented once a year to have ideas share, voiced, and voted on. All club directors and coaches take this and the district meetings as an added responsibility on when they get into this -so they can be heard from and act as the representative of their club.
Sean McCarthy
STA Kids Club
It has been my opinion for some time that the important decisions are made at the executive board level anyway, thus denying the body a chance to vote on them.
While I did NOT vote in favor of the motion as it was presented, I agree with Sean on this. Last year I had a conflict that I knew could pull me away from the meeting early. I coach youth football and the team I was coaching had reached the league championship to be played on Sunday afternoon. Knowing that I had a responsibility to be in two places at once led me to ask for help from another coach on our team. We both traveled to Salina on Sunday morning and when I had to leave my club was still represented. The Executive Board has tried to get the point made several times; our annual meeting is important. When the business of USAWA-KS is conducted we need a quorum of member clubs in the room. This is a typical example of why that is necessary; not only for our organization but at the individual club level as well. If more clubs would have stuck around the motion may have failed. This was a very close vote; I can’t remember the exact count but I think less than 10 votes would have turned the tide and we wouldn’t even be discussing this issue at all. However, the motion did carry and we all have to live with the decision that was made…whether we voted for it or not.
In my mind, the example of overturning a “Board” decision that Randy talks about in his last post was a very different situation. That decision was made by a few elected representatives; who after talking with their constituents reversed their previous judgment. This particular issue was presented to the “State Body” at large and it carried by a majority vote of those present. Whether you agree with the decision or not, I think that under the circumstance it would be wrong for the “Board” to reverse a decision made by the “State Body”. That would set a very, very bad precedent. Our leadership needs to be reasonable and measured in our approach. But we also need to be decisive after a decision is made. …especially if that decision was made by the “State Body”.
BTW... I did offer an amendment to the motion which would have allowed those punished by this vote to buy back the pass that they lost. That amendment was not seconded by anyone on the floor and thus was not voted on by our body. I thought this would have been a reasonable compromise. However, those in the room appeared to be either strongly for or strongly against the original motion and were not in the mood to compromise.
When the business of USAWA-KS is conducted we need a quorum of member clubs in the room.
Ah but we were told we don't need a quorum "in the room" but simply a quorum that had been checked in at the beginning of the day. A decision I disagree with and I think sets a bad precedent. I know that is the way business has always been conducted in the past but that doesn't make it right or constitutional IMO. Under this system we could all check in and leave directly and the business would still get done.
...you are correct. As interpreted from our constitution, a quorum is established at the beginning of the meeting. I apologize if my comments above were misleading. Those who leave are counted as abstentions to any vote after their departure. Your point only puts a heavier emphasis on the importance and responsibility of being present in order to represent your constituents.
This particular issue was presented to the “State Body” at large and it carried by a majority vote of those present. Whether you agree with the decision or not, I think that under the circumstance it would be wrong for the “Board” to reverse a decision made by the “State Body”. That would set a very, very bad precedent. Our leadership needs to be reasonable and measured in our approach. But we also need to be decisive after a decision is made. …especially if that decision was made by the “State Body”.
Per the constitution, the Executive Council may NOT overrule a decision by the State Body.
I agree that clubs should have had a representative that could stay the whole meeting. I also understand the importance of a quorum. The issue that made their decision unreasonable was to penalize these clubs on the fly. The rules were clear before the meeting and then changed after the clubs that had to leave had fulfilled their requirements. Those clubs that made the trip and stayed 3 hours or longer should not receive the same penalty as the guy who blew the meeting off altogether. The correct way to go about this would have been to vote in this requirement for next year, so that all clubs could plan accordingly.
I agree that clubs should have had a representative that could stay the whole meeting. I also understand the importance of a quorum. The issue that made their decision unreasonable was to penalize these clubs on the fly. The rules were clear before the meeting and then changed after the clubs that had to leave had fulfilled their requirements. Those clubs that made the trip and stayed 3 hours or longer should not receive the same penalty as the guy who blew the meeting off altogether. The correct way to go about this would have been to vote in this requirement for next year, so that all clubs could plan accordingly.
I won't argue the decision to penalize the clubs that left early because to be honest I have mixed feelings about it. But lets be honest here, out of the approximate 50% of the clubs who left early how many do you suppose had an acceptable reason for doing so? Ten percent? I don't know, but I would guess it would be less than half of them.
Chief,
For the sake of clarity, it is my understanding that those clubs that did not show up at all will lose “2” coaches passes…this is the same as it has been in the past. The motion that passed this year only took “1” pass away from those clubs that signed in but were not present at a roll-call taken at the end of the business session.
Mark
At the State Tournament, those clubs attending, receive 2 coaching passes for their first five entries. Then they receive, 1 pass for every additional five.
In the past, the rule was, to receive two for the first five, one must attend the State Body meeting.
Some attend the State Body meeting just to sign in and leave. Today it was decided, that a roll was taken at the end of the meeting. If a club left early, they lost one of their two passes.
sf2: I understand your position! I too, grow a bit tired especially following a long weekend. I am confident the Executive Board would like a shorter meeting too. You have made a great suggestion.
Mark,
The rule in place gives each club two passes for the first 5 wrestlers. If they didn't show, they lost one pass. This same penalty was imposed on the clubs that did show but left early.
Sorry...I stand corrected.
To add another point of clarity to this topic.....
Before the vote was made to take away coaches passes (a negative form of punishiment) there was an amendment to give the clubs that had stayed a third pass and let the clubs that left early keep two passes. The idea behind this motion was to reward the clubs that had stayed without punishing the clubs that signed in and left. I personally thought this was the fairest option.
The state body voted on this and this idea was defeated by 1 vote.
I pass this on so that everyone understands that there was a lot of discussion and some additional ideas discussed prior to the voting on the measure that was passed.
Also, please do not hold Randy responsible in any way shape or form for this. As stated earlier he is just the messenger that posted the decision on this forum.
Shawn Budke
I think it's tthe kids being punished here not the coaches. A lot of kids have had a certain coach with them all year, thats who they feel comfortable with. To take away passes after the fact is crazy. This rule should be implkemented for next year. I am so glad my son is almost done with kids wrestling, the leadership is getting petty and imposing stupid rules to show their authority, get a life it's for the kids not a bunch of pumped up adults who think their special because they donate their time. hell we all donate time and money to this sport. get a clue
Why not handle the coaches passes just like every other tournament? If you are a coach, you get a pass. It worked all year long. Pretty simple. So now we are going to force clubs to start swapping out passes so they can get on the floor to coach a kid. Find another way to punish us radicals that left early from the meeting. Changing the rules mid-stream doesn't seem right. As I said before, a precidence was set in previous years when the sign in sheet was used as role call.
It would appear that no matter what is discussed here, nothing will change since it was approved from the floor of the state meeting. I hope all that voted in favor of this feel good about it. In the end, the kids will suffer.
Tom Heald
I agree with Chief Renegade
But when Randy uses the word MAY it makes it look like the board can pick and choose which clubs will get the pass taken away and which ones will not lose them. Its all in the wording.
A good lawer would have a field day with this in just the wording alone.
What is the exact wording of the new rule. Why doesn't someone from our state leadership address this issue? It seems to me that every year our leadership tries to be more and more restrictive when it comes to state passes. They say they want the sport to grow but with the ridiculous restrictions and rules that get implemented every year it just drives people away. I would love to stay in the sport and coach 5-10 more years but frankly I am tired of all the BS, Not every team that left early will be penalized if you are a good old boy and are freinds with Ned, Leanna or any other of the powers that be you will be given all the passes you ask for, for the rest of us we will be punished and lose a pass. I think it's crazy
Randy,
I will be the first to apologize for this misdirected criticism, you are an assest to USA wrestling at the national and especially the state level, and for that I thank you! Keep up the good work, and keep us informed.
The "leadership" did not make this rule or even the make the motion on this issue. Your peers that sat next to you and saw you leave made the motion, disscussed the issue, tried to ammend the motion, discussed the issue some more, and voted. In effect, your lack of voting on this issue has created the problem.
I am on the Executive Board and do not have a vote at this meeting. Most every issue we deal with at the Executive level must be passed by you at this once a year meeting.
I understand you are upset, but I feel you are directing your anger and discontent toward the wrong people. The leadership does not magically appear, they are voted on in a parlimentarian matter.
Many of the points and suggestions made on this site make sense, if only they would have been heard in a meeting by those who can vote and support your views, like the State Body Meeting.
Great statement Rassler, thats what I ment when I said Randy used the word May.
One thing that attracted me to this sport in the first place was the lack of politics. The varsity team was determined by one-on-one competition not by who your dad was, how much money you gave the booster club or if the coach liked you. Now the very thing I despised, politics, is right in the middle of the sport I love. Instead of focusing on making more opportunities for kids, finding more coaches for kids, getting more kids to wrestle, improving facilities, rewarding volunteers, treating those who love the sport with respect we are focusing on these things:
Limiting coaches passes
Upholding ejections with no executive oversight or appeal process
Fatten the bank account as much as possible
Force coaches to have background checks
I am sorry but none of these objectives will help our sport grow or make it more enjoyable for those who are already involved. I am not saying I disagree or agree with any of these topics but what I am saying is why isn't our energy focused on:
Getting more kids to try our sport
Creating more team events for kids
Fund more wrestlers and events
Figure out how to sanction a 6 and under state
Create a novice state
Work on losening the KSHSAA up to get more kids from Middle School and Junior High to join USA Wrestling Clubs
Fund more open practice facilities and clinics
Create a Kansas tournament series to allow wrestlers to generate points and win awards
Why can't we focus on positive things? Sportsmanship is no different today than it was when I started kids wrestling in 1971 so why are we wasting our time on this topic? We need coaches and the kids need them more than ever at state. We need more coaches passes, not less! The problem is that a majority of the 70 clubs left during the voting portion of the meeting were upset that about that number had left early so they voted to show their displeasure by taking away passes without thinking what this was going to do to the kids. I didn't right down the names of those who voted for it but I know that Bob Stein was adamantly against this but to no avail. Common sense could not prevail. I have thought long and hard about how to overturn this decision but I cannot short of an emergency meeting which a quorum of club directors would attend. We DO NOT want to empower the Executive Board to make decisions without the State Body approval. Are there any other ideas out there?
Could a poll be created on this site, a password mailed to each club director to access the poll to make (1) vote, and have this poll available to the rest of us so we can watch the outcome? I don't know what it takes to have a (quorum), but I think this could be a solution not only for this, but maybe for the other topics that are voted on at the state meeting. Being able to do business online might be a step in the right direction. It would odviousely save us time and money.
Now we are getting somewhere in this discussion. Randy's sign off says a lot about checking our motives. Are we making a "POSITIVE" difference in the life of kids? The last 5 or 6 posts have brought up terms like restrictive, petty, authoritative power and good old boy network. If taking away coaching passes hurts the kids, all of us involved in Kansas wrestling need to take a deep breath and GIVE THEM BACK. If it takes a specially called meeting to invite a quorum of club directors, let's get it scheduled. I have never understood why we can't have e-mail's sent to each club director asking for their vote. Can we not have a level of trust that they will be answered honestly? This state has too much to be thankful for to let these "petty" issues rob the kids of their joy.
I make the motion that all coaches that need a coaches pass for the state tournament be given one. There is no restriction on the number of coaches at the qualifing tournaments, we don't need them here. Can't be any more crowded than some of the qualifing events!
Then if you want a stick or carrot to get the clubs to the state meeting use something like this. Show up to the state meeting and you club dues are $50, don't show up and they are $100. Then of course make it known WHEN the census will be taken for the attendance at the state meeting.
Tom Heald
What is the reasoning behind limiting the number of coaches passes?
Will,
You bring up some very valid points. We tried to make this a positive by rewarding the clubs that stayed rather than penalize the ones that left. There was an amendment to the motion and we voted on it. That amendment lost by 1 vote. I personally feel this was the way to go because it wouldn't have changed the original rules or premise that some people operated on, ie, sign in, get credit and then leave. However, for those who stayed it would have rewarded them with an extra pass.
What I didn't realize until too late is that the discussion that followed that motion was about not allowing clubs to negotiate with their districts to get extra passes. The impression was left with some voting members that if we passed the amendment to give the clubs that stayed an extra pass then we wouldn't be able to get extra passes in the same manner that has been done in the past. I think this influenced the way some people voted. That part of the discussion was not part of the amendment that was made and I didn't realize it until it was too late.
I am with you in that I don't fully appreciate the reason we have to limit passes. I think we should have enough passes so that every wrestler could have 2 coaches on the mat with them while they are wrestling. I don't have any statistics but my instinct is that the ratio for wrestlers to coaches passes would then have be in the neighborhood of 1 coaches pass for every 2 wrestlers. I do understand the concern about crowding at matside with coaches that are not coaching standing around the mats and people in the stands not being able to see. To me this is an enforcement issue that can be dealt with in other ways rather than limiting number of passes.
I also agree that these coaches put in a lot of time during the season helping out and for them to not be able to get down to the mat to coach at state is a tough pill to swallow. I know that we made it so passes can be swapped out but that makes it very hard in practice because you have multiple kids on the mats at the same time.
At National tournaments; Rocky Mountain Nationals, Cliff Keen Kick Off, Tulsa Nationals, etc. they do not limit the number of coaches passes a team can receive. They do pretty stringently enforce not being around the mats unless you are on deck and have a wrestler getting ready to wrestle. This seems to work pretty well.
Another idea is to give a base amount to clubs and then charge for additional passes. I know some are against this but it would help reduce the amount of people around the mat. I have heard that one of the reasons for limiting passes is so that parents (folks who aren't coaches) don't come down to the mat. By charging for extra passes it would at least make people think about whether it is worth the $$$ to be able to be matside.
Bottomline: In my opinion I think as a body we can develop some feasible solutions. We will never make everyone happy but I think the real issue is enforcement of who is let to the mats and when. This should be done by not limiting coaches passes. The state tournament venue allows for a pretty controlled access to the floor. We could make it so you are not allowed on the floor until your wrestler is 2-3 matches away from competing. This would keep both the wrestlers and the coaches off the floor.
Just my thoughts and I am willing to help work any solutions we can develop.
Shawn Budke
Are these same clubs going to asked to work a table at State time?
Was Coach Gonzo & Mr Disney's reasons for not being in attendance more acceptable than the one's that left 1hr early?
Matt
It sounds like what many of you are supporting is “Mob” rule. What is worse; being governed by the “Man” or being ruled by a “Mob”? With the “Man” you know who to vote out; being ruled by a “Mob” is very close to anarchy. A lot of the ideas brought up in this thread sound like good ideas. There are many of them that I hope my club director would have supported. I don’t know exactly how the meetings are run, but the thing I want to know is why weren’t these ideas brought up at the annual meeting? Our organization could loosely be described as a representative democracy. In order for it to work our representatives need to do their work. I think I read that 120 clubs were represented at the beginning of the meeting and only 69 were left when the voting took place. I agree that taking passes away is more of a punishment of the of the kids. I think our leadership let us down on this issue. I just have a different spin on it than most of you. Leaders that I hold responsible are the ones that were not in the room when this was voted on. I don’t hold anything against those who did their duty and attended the voting portion of the meeting. I don’t care how they voted; I think they should be patted on the back either way. They certainly don’t deserve to be lynched by a “Mob”.
I agree a lot with Cokeley, and Confucius, but I also think that every club should be represented by a member at the most important meeting of the year. Let’s be honest here, as a Head Coach of a club I need to be at the State Body Meeting, or have someone from my club attend. If my club is not represented at the meeting where the votes on ALL topics that eventually effect the kids in my club, who is at fault? Who is hurting the kids? The board members were there, 69 clubs were there, and some members here are blaming those people who sacrificed every minute to make sure that they had a say in what is happening in our origination. It sounds to me like the ones who stayed were trying to look out for our kids.
Think about this. If you go to work, clock in, stay till noon, and then leave. Would you expect to be accounted present for the whole day? I know my work would not allow this. What if a coworker left at noon? Would you fill that it is fair, that you have to stay, and he is counted present for the entire day, and gets his full wage?
Same thing with school. Should our kids be allowed to show up for roll call and then leave class early? I know that I would not let this happen in my home.
I think the “mob” needs to look into the mirror and ask “Was I there to vote on the subjects that would affect my kids, or was I just there to get another coaches pass?”
On the other hand the people who were there need to ask themselves if they made the correct decision, to punish without stating the rule first. Would you punish your child for not taking out the trash if you haven’t told them to do so? Would you ground your child for not getting straight A’s if you haven’t told them that it was expect. I believe that this was a quick decision that should have been approached differently.
I myself could not be there. I had a show to go to in Kentucky for work. As a head coach I found two members of my club to represent the kids in my club. They fortunately stayed for the entire meeting, as was expected, but not stated. Sure they could have left early, but they represented my club well, and I applaud them for that. I am proud that they stayed and tried to make a difference for all of the kids of Kansas.
I believe that all coaches should receive a coach’s pass at state; can we vote on this at the next board meeting? Like a lot of you have already said, all coaches volunteer time to help the kids of Kansas, why are they not allowed to get the rewards of coaching the same kids in the most important tournament of the year?
I know there are some legitimate reasons for not being able to be there, or having to leave early. I don’t fully agree with the decision that was made. I think that it should have been effective at next years meeting, but I wasn’t there to vote. So I personally lost my say in all the votes by not being there.
P.S. Can we get a better hospitality food for state. HaHa.
Ray Kramer
Head Coach
Goddard Wrestling Club
P.S. Can we get a better hospitality food for state. HaHa.
Ray Kramer
Head Coach
Goddard Wrestling Club
Sorry Ray, those of us who stayed voted down the $5.00 increase in the state entry fee. About the only reason given for need to increase the fee was to improve the hospitality room. It's back to Doritos and bring your own dip.
I just find it amazing this issue is dividing the membership in such a manner. Instead of finding a way to get every qualified coach a pass, some take the easy way out and work to restrict. I hope none of the people who voted for the issue did so thinking it would be easier for them to get 'extra' passes. Its as if some enjoy the fact this issue works to divide the members each year. It come up every year I have been on this forum. I understand the demands of our state leadership and of our coaches - I spend 5 years as the sec/trea in our local union and I know these types of jobs are demanding. But, work for win-win solutions. Punishing those who left early is not a win-win answer. AND, the idea anyone in a volunteer organization would have to have an excuse as to why they left a meeting early is extremely upsetting. Its not a job, its volunteer. Was there anything done at the meeting that could not be done on the internet. AND, the idea I stayed, so should you, also does not reflect the nature of a volunteer organization. The thought that someone will have to beg to get the chance to be with his son at the most important tournament of the year, really upset me. I don't expect a pass this year. Thats ok, my son is older. But, I will miss being on the floor and seeing people I like and maybe have not seen all year. Its nice to be on the floor. And I just do not understand why restrictions are all people are looking at. NO this vote was not passed with the best interest of the kids, and thanks Randy for reminding everyone what this is really all about.
I did hear the female at the front table with the laptop say "I will sell the passes back for $500" I wont leave her initials and edit later.
But it is not about the money!
Hospitality room = very poor!!
Raise the entry fee $20
Raise the gate fee ?
Program ad Fees $25 - $100
Score clock ads $100
$100,000 in bank
Sell Coaches passes back for $500
Stabbing your peers in the back - PRICELESS
So whats going to happen now when a kid is up and the only coach from his team allowed on the floor is busy coaching another wrestler. Who is being punished then?
Why are we punishing anyone? We should be thankful that people are willing to give up their time to coach.
The idea of someone from our state leadership offering to sell the passes back for $500 is disturbing. I think this person should resign her position immediately. This is not the kind of person we need to help this sport grow. This kind of thinking causes people to leave the sport.
I thought you had to have a bronze card to get on the floor.
why not give all coaches with the card a pass?
Does anyone know a coach who has been denied entry to the floor? I haven't been to the state tournament in several years but from what I hear there are floor passes all around and way too many coaches on the floor as it is. If a coach is not able to get a pass through the current system I would say one of two things is happening, either that coach is not wanted on the floor by his own club or that club/coach is so far removed from what is going on they have no idea how to work the system. Either way that is someone who probably shouldn't be on the floor. And when did this tournament become a reunion for coaches? Silly me I thought it was about the kids but now we find out it's about the number of old friends who can meet and greet on the floor and the hospitality room.
The comment I made about charging $500 for a coaches pass was all said in "fun", as I even laughed about it when I said it. It was NOT a serious comment - come on people!! If you really know me and my love of the sport, you would of known that!!
HOWEVER, you might be surprised who would pay it just to get on the floor. I have been to national or larger tournaments and it's nothing for them to pay $75 - $100 just to get a coaches pass. Also, at some of these tournaments, they are have rules and you are allowed so many passes and that is it.
First of all, the issues we were voting on for THIS YEAR'S state tournament were all listed on the agenda, which was mailed to all clubs and posted on the web page.
The executive council recommendation was to leave it the same as last year WHICH WAS, 2 free passes (one of those lost if you DID NOT attend the State Body meeting) AND THEN one per five (5) wrestlers who qualified. Also, if you do not qualify any wrestlers, than no coaches passes are given to that club.
The motion made was an "amendment" to change this recommendation, and include the wording that a roll call be taken at the end of the meeting and those clubs not in attendance at the end, would also loose a pass. That is what the vote was taken on -
The discussion included about whether this could be done this year, changed every year, attendance, etc. The issues we were voting on were for the State Tournament 2008, which included entry fee, gate fee, officials pay, and coaches passes. These are the same items discussed and voted on each year.
While some may not approve of it, your State Body (clubs who stayed the entire meeting) voted on in, NOT the Executive Council.
Leanna Grater
Leana,
I have been to just about all of the national tournaments and I have yet to find one that limits coaching passes. They may sell them but they don't put a limit on them.
I just read mrs. Grater post and as far as the way she feels about wrestling I know for sure shes loves the sport of wrestling and I have new her for years and yes she should not have said it and let anybody hear her, but that being said its hard for me as a coach to be sold a bill of goods that this was in the best interest of the kids or kansas wrestling. Theres been so much said about this that the state body either gives floor passes out like they have in the past or kids wrestling in kansas has been set back 10 years and I hope the familys of the kids that love wrestling don't pull there kids out of a sport the they like and so I think its time to rethink what happened and put a end to the mess. What do you think the kids and parents that read the talk forum think about the mess that kansas wrestling has gotton its self into.
First the dist.1 has a big amount of money taken and now this, its not looking good for Kansas wrestling.
Leana weren't you and ned talking about selling passes last year for 50-75$. I believe that thread is on this website. So were you really joking. I think you enjoy having the power over people to deny them passes. I overheard you and ned talking last year about it.
Was Coach Gonzo reasons for not being in attendance more acceptable than the one's that left 1hr early?
Matt
Yes. Coach Gonazles was not attending the meeting as he was not up for re-election and had announced long ago he was retiring from the Executive Board.
Was Mr Disney's reasons for not being in attendance more acceptable than the one's that left 1hr early?
Matt
Yes. Mr. Disney was not in attendance as he was prosecuting Scott Cheever for the murder of Greenwood County Sheriff (and former high school wrestler) Matt Samuels.
On a Sunday, last I knew the court houses were closed on weekends.
I would like to chime in on this topic being someone that has been around the wrestling scene for many years. I think that the first part of this topic is leaving the meeting "early" well if memory serves me right attending the meeting is voluntary and done by members of the clubs that donate their time. In the past members from our town's wrestling club mark the calendar, get up at the crack of dawn, and donate their time to drive across the state to District and State meetings. They donate their time and their money to attend these off season meetings. They do this not because they have to but because they want to. Things like this is what makes wrestling in Kansas great when people give of their "free time" to help Kansas kids. I find it disturbing that throughout this post people are having to defend why they didn't attend the meeting or why they left before the end. I think there are bigger issues that need addressed than attacking long time wrestling volunters. Some of these people being called out have gone to these meetings for years donating their time I am amazed that if they miss all or part of a meeting how fast others point fingers. I think if people are looking for a pat on the back for donating some of their time than they are in this for the wrong reason. It's the people that jump in and get their hands dirty helping at tournaments, duals, meeting ect.. that do it because they want to . They don't do it for the look at me look at what I did these are the kind of people who are pointing fingers in this post. I think the biggest part that bothers me about this topic is at this time over 7 pages of replies, which we all know some of the kids read and if we as parents are fighting over something like this what message do are we sending to the kids. I feel don't punish the kids for what others do or don't do, support the kids win or lose and to all the clubs have a great upcoming season.
On a Sunday, last I knew the court houses were closed on weekends.
Scott:
I am stunned by your response. If it was your father who had been gunned down while performing his job I hope you would appreciate the job done by Barry.
A mans life was at stake in a capital murder trial and I know Barry was spending all of his time concentrating on this far more important matter.
My First job is to save a life and I had been up all night long fighting a house fire inwhich a family lost most of every thing they owened and in there eyes its means as much as Barry job does and your right the court house is closed on sunday but we are not here to cast stones, we are here for the kids that wrestle in kansas or are we. your right the people in charge are looking out for them selves and yes most coaches will get there passes if the don't say anything to upset the apple cart. When Kenny and Caty were in charge this kind of thing would have never got out of hand and as I remember I think Grater house bunt one day and if you would have asked her the fire department was there and if the men who worked for the department would have packed up and went to the state meeting she would have been up set to. In other words coaches do not get paid they do it for the kids, and yes some of them do it because there kid wrestles but the people that come from the dist 1 know my kids are out of kids wrestling and one is the head coach of Hiawatha middle school and asst. coach at the high school and yes, I was going to get out two years ago when the club though they could run it without me and that lasted two years and the hiawatha wrestling club has went out and again I was asked to step in and start a club so thats why I was in slaina sunday and the club called team hawks will lose a coaches pass because we left early but if I have a choice to make again to help save a familys home or lose one pass to coach the kids wrestling club at state the familys of our kids that wrestle are smart enough to understand and thats why today I still love the kids and familys of the people of hiawatha and in return I hope you find a way to help the kids insted of patting yourself on the back on the long hours you spend in making a mess of kids wrestling in kansas and by the way whem barry gets done with his court case he could fine time to get the money back that was taken from dist. one.
Great Post
As I hear it Barry did a great job with his case. Thanks to him the Samuels Family may get some of their peace back. But that should not be the only reason people should get a break. Leaving early because of a drive or their family should be a good enough reason. Everyone should be thankful for those clubs that have enough dedication to show up and not just say forget it. I had to skip a day at work, drive close to 140 miles to and 140 miles home and still lose my pass. I probably won't be there next year because our awards banquet for my children is always on the same weekend so I won't be wasting my time and fuel next year.
Not meaning to talk for Scott, but maybe the point is why does anyone need an excuse. And, if an excuse is needed, who rates what is a good enough excuse. As stated very well by Slap, its volunteer!!!!!! No excused needed. And, I understand this was not on the agenda, it came from the floor. It wasn't expected. And, on the important things that could be talked about, how about audit requirements for the clubs to ensure the member's money is taken care of. That makes a lot more sense than taking away passes from someone who thought time with his family was more important than sitting in a voluntary meeting.
To Mr. Johnson
Great post your right on its to bad others don't understand. Thanks
Who made the motion to have clubs that weren't present at the end lose a pass?
Here is the deal -
1. Attendance at the State meeting was falling off very badly;
2. The State tournament directors were concerned about the number of people on the floor at the State meeting who were not coaching and making it harder to run the tournament;
Obviously a lot of people don't like the approach that has been taken to remedy these two things. So how about suggesting alternative solutions? How do you get people to the State body meeting? How do you keep the floor at State less congested?
I agree with John Johnson that we don't want to be rating excuses for non attentance. But we do need clubs to attend the State body meeting.
And we have all be on the floor at State. No one can seriously argue that everyone on the floor NEEDS to be there ALL the time. How do we get those who are just standing around and don't have a kid coming up for an hour or so to get off the floor.
(And thank you Richard for the support)
Who made the motion to have clubs that weren't present at the end lose a pass?
But we do need clubs to attend the State body meeting.
And I would add, stay till the business is concluded!
Richard im glad Barry is doing his job with this case. I wasnt knocking him for doing it. I was just telling the facts. We all got jobs that we got to be at. Keep up the good work Barry.
Scott - I understand you were just making a point. No offense taken.
This topic is where I need to ask the following question:
I have attended (to their conclusion) all of the State Body Meetings for the past 14 years.
I did not attend the State Body Meeting this year(football commitment, as I volunteer for that sport too). Lose 1st "free pass".
Guess you can say I left early too. Lose 2nd "free pass".
What happens when 4 kids from Mill Valley Wrestling Club qualify for the State Tournament?
Will these kids have to forfeit because their coach can't make it to the floor to coach?
Better yet - Should 9 kids qualify and we earn a "free pass", how in the world will 1 coach keep up with all of them, let alone manage to keep an eye on the clock and scoreboard, as well as actually coach the athletes. Remembering that scoring errors are hard to get corrected if we can't keep an eye on them.
Respectfully,
Jeff Broadbent - MVWC
Excellent question Jeff. Set aside all the other comments about the value of staying till the end and why individuals could not and someone please tell me; how a coach is going to explain to their wrestler that has worked their rear off to get there why they had to forfeit their match because their coach couldn't be present? This is a scenario I hope never happens but given the recent decision I can not see how it will be avoided! Who are we in it for? Who is being punished here? Someone please answer!
Well Jeff Smith thats a no brainer the kids, although it may take the brain trust a little longer because they will have to have a meeting to talk about it, and then vote
Excellent question Jeff. Set aside all the other comments about the value of staying till the end and why individuals could not and someone please tell me; how a coach is going to explain to their wrestler that has worked their rear off to get there why they had to forfeit their match because their coach couldn't be present? This is a scenario I hope never happens but given the recent decision I can not see how it will be avoided! Who are we in it for? Who is being punished here? Someone please answer!
I also disagree with the outcome of the vote, but to be clear, your scenario would never happen. There are so many coaches on the floor that almost any of them would gladly coach the wrestler. He would be disadvantaged by not having the coach that knows him, but forfeiting is out of the question.
Eric, I would agree that there would be several qualified coaches on the floor available for the child but considering that the coach is not familiar with the child's moves, strengths, weaknesses etc. I am not sure how much better of an experience this provides for the wrestler. Especially, considering the fact that the situation could have been avoided in the first place. Fact is, there shouldn't be even the slightest chance of this happening and right now that chance does exist.
Eric, I would agree that there would be several qualified coaches on the floor available for the child but considering that the coach is not familiar with the child's moves, strengths, weaknesses etc. I am not sure how much better of an experience this provides for the wrestler. Especially, considering the fact that the situation could have been avoided in the first place. Fact is, there shouldn't be even the slightest chance of this happening and right now that chance does exist.
True. I would expect that a coach in that kind of a bind would qualify for the sympathy pass.
Who made the motion to have clubs that weren't present at the end lose a pass?
Who seconded it?
In response to mr.Disney
1. In order to get more clubs at the state meeting, shorten it up,do all of the voting first, pass out typed reports with the packets, that way if someone has to leave early they can.
2. The floor does get a little crowded but it never interferes with the tournament, it doesn't slow down the matches, just about everyone that wants a pass gets one all you have to do is ask ned for one. I don't see a problem here.
the bottom line is the state meeting is too long, by the time everyone is done with their reports people are ready to go home.I agree their are people on the floor that don't need to be there but so what, the tournament runs smoothly for the most part,explain to me what the problem is, most district tournaments are worse.
if all you have to do to get a floor pass is ask Ned then that being said why go to the meeting at all? I don't think that is a very good anser.
As of today we have 9 pages of ideas and we are not any closer to solving the matter than on the first page. the club that started the whole thing is setting back not saying a thing and hoping no one anser jeffs post.
well I will tell you it came from a club with a lot of kids and coaches and they are not like a small club that depends on just one or two coachs to be there every weekend for a handful of kids. Its takes years to get a good wrestling club started and one day to destroy the dreams of kids and coaches and I hope that for the wrestling program in Kansas we can reunight and get better and the people in charge learn from there mistake.
and the people in charge learn from there mistake.
Tom:
Exactly what was the mistake made by "the people in charge".
The people in charge at the State Body meeting are elected by the State Body to follow rules voted upon by the State Body.
A motion was made regarding coaches passes, an item on the agenda, and the motion passed by a majority vote of the State Body. The fact remains YOU LEFT and therefore your voice was not heard and your vote was not counted.
The fault lies directly with the person you see when you look in the mirror.
So if a new club was chartered today, and say had one kid make it to state, would they get a coaches pass to coach their state qualifier? They did not leave the meeting early....there is nothing in the rules that says you have to be a club by the state meeting. It is my understanding the rule was amended to say you lose a pass if you left the meeting early this would not apply to a new club chartered Dec. 1.
24/7
So if a new club was chartered today, and say had one kid make it to state, would they get a coaches pass to coach their state qualifier? 24/7
Why would they need more than one pass? The rule is one pass for every five qualifiers.
Richard
I like what your saying is at the bottom of your post Richard does not play well with others. I hope your refuring to coaches that are up set and not the kids these coaches work with each week and have to tell the parents they may not have a coach at there coner when state time comes around.
Richard you know how much work I have done for the kids the past 18 years and I will still do anything for the kids but the statment that was made just ask Ned and he will get you a pass is going to be hard for people to live with because that has went on for a long time any way. Richard your right I did leave early and belive it or not it was the first time in all the years that we left early and as a lot of others ,in fact almost half did the same thing they left early to.
So mabe its time for you to learn how to play well with others and if you do, things like this would not happen.
Now we can set here on the computer and get upset and smart off to each other but the bottom line is, we have to get back as a wrestling group and do whats best for the kids, you have to remember kids read this to.
Richard when things don't go well go to bed and wake up and have a good day. Thanks
Sportsfan02 you didn't read my post very closely. I was asking would they get a single pass? There is confusion if a club lost one or two passes. At least I thought I read that somewhere in the 9 pages of posts.
24/7
Did I leave early? Yes! Good excuse? Not really. Think something crappy happened? Yes. Will I stay the whole meeting next year? You bet. Gonna Complain? Hell no. Get over it and change it next year if you don't like the outcome. You have to be there to change it though.
I was asking would they get a single pass?
24/7
And I said yes!
Who made the motion to have clubs that weren't present at the end lose a pass?
Who seconded it?
why isn't anyone answering Mr. Roberts question? This should be public information. Mr.Salyer you seem to think you know everything else why arn't you answering this.
Another thing why don't we give enough passes to have two coaches in every corner. With all of the scoring and time mistakes at state I would think this would be a priority.
The answear to Mr. Roberts question should be in the minutes of the meeting. I would think they would be available within two to four weeks after the meeting. Is this time frame correct?
Mr. Slayer said the item was on the agenda and passed. Is that a completely true statement? Did it pass as written or was it amended? There is a big difference. And, were the rules changed as to what counted as having attended the meeting. The real issue this thread is pointing at, and no one is addressing is the state tournament is real close to outgrowing the Expo Center, if it already hasn't. Changes need to be made that will allow all coaches on the floor, make it where there are not 4 or 5 hours between the matches for the kids, and ensure the fans are treated better by the facility staff. This issue is a sign kids wrestling in Kansas is doing well. The question is are we going to fight with each other until we drive some people out of the sport and find a way to include all. And, Jeff's question has validity.
To answer a few questions....
1. I do not know who made the motion nor do I know who seconded it. I do know that I made an amendment to have a pass added for the teams that were there at the end rather than have one taken away. I thought it was more fair to reward those who stayed rather than penalize those that left. This amendment was voted on and lost by 1 vote.
I don't think it is really important as to who made the motion, etc. What is important is that we try to really define the problem and then develop reasonable solutions. Once we do that then we can take it to the State meeting and try to make changes.
In that endeavor, I think the real issue is the limitation of coaches passes at the state tournament. I personally think that there should not be a limit and that you need to coaches per 1 wrestler. One to coach and the other to watch the score.
The biggest reason I have heard for limiting the # of passes is because of the crowding on the floor. If that is the reason for limiting passes then I think there are other ways to fix the crowding on the floor rather than limiting coaches passes. Here are a few ideas.....
1. Don't put a restriction on the number of passes. Strictly enforce access to the floor by limiting coaches on to the floor only when they have a wrestler that is 3-4 matches away from competing. Further enforce this by having a staff of some kind that roams the floor and check people. This is done at other big tournaments and works pretty well.
2. Provide a limited number of passes and then sell additional passes. This would allow those who really want them to have access and not limit clubs. It would also take out any subjectivity on who gets extra passes.
These are just a couple of ideas. There are pros and cons to both. I think if we can develop some reasonable courses of action then we can take them to the state meeting and discuss them and let the state body decide.
One thing I would recommend to everyone is that for those of us who think we should have more passes then we should do a better job of keeping ourselves off the floor if we don't have a wrestler getting ready to compete. I know that I am guilty of "hanging out", waiting on the floor rather than waiting in the stands. If we all were better at getting off the floor when we weren't needed then we can eliminate one of the arguments for restricting passes.
Just my two cents.
Shawn Budke
Mr. Slayer said the item was on the agenda and passed. Is that a completely true statement? Did it pass as written or was it amended?
What was said is:
A motion was made regarding coaches passes, an item on the agenda, and the motion passed by a majority vote of the State Body.
Coaches Passes was one of numerous items on the Agenda!
Who made the motion to have clubs that weren't present at the end lose a pass?
Who seconded it?
Wouldn't that be a motion towards a condition of attendance of the State Body Meeting?
Matt
I was somewhat surprised nobody made a motion to lower the number of wrestlers per coaches pass. If as some say the 5 wrestlers per one coaches pass is too many, then why didn't someone make a motion to make it 4 wrestlers per one coaches pass?
....and my question still is:
If a club did not attend the meeting -
The club has 4 wrestlers qualify and get NO coaches to coach them!?
The club has 9 wrestlers qualify and get 1 coach to coach them!?
Is that how it works?
Jeff Broadbent - MVWC
What happens to those teams that missed the meeting entirely? Do they lose both passes?
Has anyone answered this question? I think there might be some confustion on this matter. I know I am.
1) no show, lose a pass
2) leave meeting early, lose a pass because you werent there for the final roll call.
If you were a no show:
By default lose your first pass, do you lose your second pass because you weren't there for the final roll call?
What happens to those teams that missed the meeting entirely? Do they lose both passes?
Has anyone answered this question?
Yes it was answered.
I believe the answer to your question is-
If you left early or you did not make roll call- then you lose 1 pass. You are still given 1 pass for the first 5 kids and then 1 pass for every 5 kids after that- so if you have 9 kids you only get one pass-
As for the Floor crowding problem at state- I totally agree it gets very crowd and that is uncalled for. I would say that it is because of the large clubs have multiple passes and all of them being on the floor at one time. Solutions to this could be
1) Have a warm up area where kids go just before having their match- when they are next on the mat a wrestler and his coach are walked to their mats- this having only 1 set of wrestlers and coaches at each mat.
2) Limit the number of coaches on the floor at one time- very hard to do- and probably is not an option
As far as dealing with the yearly meeting- I think the meeting needs to be shorter and maybe even figure out a way to do it via internet so coaches can be there without being there and saving them hours of driving and dollars on gas. I think the meeting needs to be done with a 2 hour time limit to keep interest up. I know I am not one of the pwoers to be and I do not have time to try and be so I appreciate all the efforts they give. I know that our little club struggles to find 2 coaches to take to meets and I am thankful for any help I can get. I also know that there are rules and I need to follow them and if that means I miss a meeting and lose a pass that is what happens. I do hope everyone can figure out how to get along