Kansas Wrestling
Posted By: wallacewrestling 6-under State tournaments - 12/18/07 02:20 AM
How is the tournament in Topeka going to be handled? Do the kids have to qualify at Ottawa in order to wrestle at Topeka?

Thanks in advance,
C. Wallace
Posted By: Beeson Re: 6-under State tournaments - 12/18/07 03:10 AM
Two totally different tournaments...two totally different champions...no clear champion...confusion NOW runs wild!!!!
Posted By: rassler Re: 6-under State tournaments - 12/18/07 04:14 AM
Does it really matter who the true 6u state champ is? Most of these kids will quit wrestling before they are 14. All I have heard the last few years is we need the 6u to wrestle on the big stage in Topeka. Now they have their chance and Ottawa won't give up the tournament. But I guess it's hard to give up a cash cow like that. I wonder if the best interest of the kids is the deciding factor in their decision.
Posted By: Beeson Re: 6-under State tournaments - 12/18/07 12:41 PM
Yes, at least to the kids who win the tournament, it matters a great deal. Maybe we should just do 4 man round robins at 6U state so everyone wins a medal and feels good. The reason kids quit before they are 14 is that we always make sure they feel like winners when they are young. When they get older and reality sinks in that they won't always get a medal, they quit. I don't have a 6U anymore but there should be a TRUE 6U state champion. Why should Ottawa have to GIVE UP their tournament? They started it and kept it going, now another club wants to swoop down and pick it up. Was the best interest of the kids a deciding factor when another 6U championship tournament was created? Personally I don't think so.
Posted By: NColtrane Re: 6-under State tournaments - 12/18/07 01:30 PM
Well said, Beeson.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: 6-under State tournaments - 12/18/07 05:08 PM
I agree with Mr Beeson.
The ottawa tournament is working very well, I would not take a chance on moving this tournament. What topeka might do instead, add a tournament in Topeka on a different week end and let them build it to the level that the Mat Masters have. Then you will have two quality tournaments if Topeka is up to the challenge.
A
Posted By: rassler Re: 6-under State tournaments - 12/18/07 09:49 PM
I think most tournaments at least the ones I have been to over the last 10-12 years don't let every 6u medal. There are a lot of 16 man brackets where only the top 4 place, how do we make all the 6u feel like winners,I don't understand that statement. The reason kids quit is because as they get older it takes more hard work and dedication to contend at tournaments, A lot of kids don't want to put in the time to improve so they quit.
All I have heard the last 10 years is we have to let the 6u wrestle on the big stage in Topeka, Now they have their chance and Ottawa is fighting it. In the best interests of the kids involved why didn't they offer to cohost the tournament in Topeka with Mark Stanley, The expo center is a much better facility, they would all get full mats and they would be in the big arena. Maybe they don't wnat to share the proceeds, i don't understand their position at all. It is not their tournament it's the kids tournament why not give them the best facility possible.

Just my thoughts
Posted By: dagwood Re: 6-under State tournaments - 12/18/07 10:37 PM
Ottawa should be fighting it. Not only did they start this when no one else wanted it but they run a quality tournament and deserve to continue doing so. As for the wanting to wrestle on the big stage what we need to ask is who wants this the parents or the kids.
Posted By: rassler Re: 6-under State tournaments - 12/19/07 01:09 AM
Over the last few years there has been a big push to add 6u to the state tournament. One of the main reasons cited was that these kids need to wrestle on the big stage just like all of the other kids.
This subject has been brought up year after year. I don't think Mark Stanley was trying to steal Ottawas tournament, He is just trying to give ths 6u the big stage, that has been asked for over the past 10 years.
Why not let these kids wrestle in Topeka, it's a better facility. Personaly I think Ottawa is acting like a six year old crying about someone stealing their tournament, when they should of stepped up and helped Mark make it a great experience for the kids. It just makes me wonder if the money is really the underlying issue in their reluctance hold it at the expo center. Because it's obviously a better venue and the kids would get to wrestle on the big stage like everyone has been pushing for.
Posted By: Beeson Re: 6-under State tournaments - 12/19/07 01:49 AM
Have they been asking for a bigger stage or just to be recognized by the state?
Posted By: Benelli Re: 6-under State tournaments - 12/19/07 01:59 AM
My boys are both 6 &U, and don't remember what we did last night AT PRACTICE, let alone tournament to tournament, so I don't think the kids are worried about how big the stage is, sounds like the parents to me. These are 5 and 6 year olds' let them be what they are.

Who really wants to fight traffic and large crowds anyway?

Besides Ottawa is closer for me!!
Posted By: Spex Re: 6-under State tournaments - 12/19/07 02:35 AM
I wasn't there last year but my wife was, at Ottawa, but she was not impressed with the facility. Too small, couldn't see matches, too many people surrounding the mat.. Parents go to watch there kids wrestle not the back of a spectators head or the heads of 15 coaches just standing around....Maybe coach Beeson could give Ottawa some tips on how to control a crowd ha.ha. But seriously it is easier to watch matches in bigger facilities, Hutch. Salina, Topeka. maybe something to consider, if Ottawa is will to split profits.
Posted By: rassler Re: 6-under State tournaments - 12/19/07 03:17 AM
I think that is the problem, they want to keep their cash cow.
How much money does this club make off of tournaments, They have the Ottawa tournament 600-700 kids, fight fiercly every year for districts, In fact this year it was voted on at the seeding meeting to hold district in Topeka, they fought it, They brought it up again at the district 1 meeting that it needs to be in Ottawa, now they don't want to let go of 6u state. It just seems that money is the underlying factor in their reluctance to let any tourament leave Ottawa. I'm surprised they don't make the case to hold state at Ottawa, maybe they could make a few thousand more off of that. It's shouldn't even be a discussion the expo center is a better facility for the kids, the fans, for everyone.
Posted By: Benelli Re: 6-under State tournaments - 12/19/07 03:40 AM
 Originally Posted By: rassler
It's shouldn't even be a discussion the expo center is a better facility for the kids, the fans, for everyone.


Nice opinion, but not for my kids, or their fans.
Posted By: rassler Re: 6-under State tournaments - 12/19/07 03:59 AM
What are you going to do when your kids are old enough to wrestle at kids state, start an ottawa state tournament?
Posted By: Beeson Re: 6-under State tournaments - 12/19/07 04:16 AM
Rassler, how much do you stand to make if this is big in Topeka? You seem to be the only one worried about this CASH COW. Do you have 6U wrestlers or are you just looking to make money off of them? Parents of 6U want just one 6U state championship to give some validity to their little one's accomplishment. Have the state recognize 6U and I have no problem with having the tournament in Topeka. Until then I say have just one tournament and keep it in Ottawa.
Posted By: rassler Re: 6-under State tournaments - 12/19/07 04:21 AM
I have nothing to do with this tournament with Mark Stanley or the Topeka club. I wont make a dime off of this tournament. I had a 6u wrestler before and we went to 6u state in Ottawa. I don't like the facility. When districts are there we wrestle all night, and it's not big enough for any tournament of this caliber. Why are you not willing to move it to a better venue if money or pride is not an issue.
Posted By: Beeson Re: 6-under State tournaments - 12/19/07 04:28 AM
Call me a loyal traditionalist, old schooler, small town fan, a guy who roots for the underdog, or just plain old hard headed. One thing is for sure 2 state tourneys is not a good thing.
Posted By: rassler Re: 6-under State tournaments - 12/19/07 04:32 AM
Then why doesn't Ottawa and the Topeka club get together and make this thing work at the big venue. Instead of the two clubs fighting over it get together and make it the best 6u state possible. Remember it is for the kids, don't you think they would get a thrill wrestling in the expo center instead of just another high school gym.
Posted By: Benelli Re: 6-under State tournaments - 12/19/07 11:55 AM
"What are you going to do when your kids are old enough to wrestle at kids state"

When or if that time comes, that's cool. No problem.
Posted By: Mike's Mom Re: 6-under State tournaments - 12/19/07 01:59 PM
I wrote a post that seemed like I was tooting my own horn about my son so I deleted it and thought of this instead.

Okay, some valid points have been made on both sides. My son has wrestled for 5 years now and I'll be the 1st to admit, I have said on more than one occasion that I didn't understand why 6&U wasn't recognized by the state. It made no sense to me. Do they not have to follow the same guidelines for all other tournaments? Do they not have to make weight like every other age and weight division? Why should they be segragated from the other wrestlers? We went to Ottawa 2x and were very successful but that didn't stop my son from asking why he wasn't allowed to wrestle at the STATE TOURNAMENT with his team mates. I'm not knocking Ottawa by any means. Props to Ottawa for standing up for these kids when the state wouldn't. But SOME of these 6&U wrestlers have the dedication and the determination to want more. They want to be able to go the "THE BIG SHOW" with the rest of their team and I for one don't blame them.

For the wrestlers who can't remember what they did at practice the night before, maybe they are to young for wrestling right now. Maybe the coaches aren't giving them the individual attention that IS needed in every club. Maybe they just don't enjoy it. There are any number of reasons they don't remember what they did. You have to figure out if they are wrestling because THEY want to or YOU want them to. Hopefully it is their choice.

Let's all just enjoy the season, it will be over before we know it.
Posted By: millspartyof5 Re: 6-under State tournaments - 12/19/07 02:31 PM
I am a 6U parent and my opinion is that they need to be incorporated into the regular state tournament. They are competing in it anyway and the little 6U studs are placing and beating out the 8U for places. This really isn't fair to the 8U. Several 6U are fierce wrestlers and as Mike's Mom states these kids are competing and are dedicated just as the older age groups throughout the season why can't they be included in these qualifying tournaments and move on to the state tournament with their teams? What are they working so hard for all season when any 6U can go to 6U state regardless of their accomplishments? I realize they are working toward their future in wrestling but they deserve equal recognition and opportunities.

This obviously isn't going to happen this year so my son won't see that day however for this year my opinion is that there needs to be 1 tournament only for 6U state otherwise neither one are serving their purpose. At this point I don't know where I should have my son go. Is USAWKS involved in sorting through this issue?
Posted By: Benelli Re: 6-under State tournaments - 12/19/07 02:36 PM
 Originally Posted By: Mike's Mom

For the wrestlers who can't remember what they did at practice the night before, maybe they are to young for wrestling right now. Maybe the coaches aren't giving them the individual attention that IS needed in every club. Maybe they just don't enjoy it. There are any number of reasons they don't remember what they did. You have to figure out if they are wrestling because THEY want to or YOU want them to. Hopefully it is their choice.

Let's all just enjoy the season, it will be over before we know it.



Actually our coaches do a wonderful job and have plenty of time for one on one...
...and if you must know, often my kids talk ME into going to practice when I would rather stay home.
Do THEY want a big show or do YOU???
Posted By: Mike's Mom Re: 6-under State tournaments - 12/19/07 06:38 PM
I am not calling your club or your coaches out. I am merely stating a fact that SOME CLUBS do not or can not provide the one on one that each child needs due to the kids vs coaches ratio. That is why we are with a small club that focuses on each childs individual ability.

As far as The Big Show goes, if you are asking if I think my son should be able to go to the Kansas State Tournament as a 6 or 7 year old because I think he is a stud, then my answer is no. I know my son wrestled all season long and worked just as hard as the rest of his team mates did and DESERVES to go. (we did last year as a 7 year old and now my son is a 2x state champ and a national champion for that matter) But I am not just talking about my son, I am talking about everyone's son that is in the 6&U age group. Why are they segregated? They pay their dues all season long to be able to show other kids in the state what they can do. It's not fair to them. It's like saying they don't matter. Not that I expect you to understand that since you would admit that you don't like to go to watch your kids at practice. I sure hope your kids don't ever get on here and read that you said that.
Posted By: Benelli Re: 6-under State tournaments - 12/19/07 06:55 PM
 Originally Posted By: Mike's Mom
Not that I expect you to understand that since you would admit that you don't like to go to watch your kids at practice. I sure hope your kids don't ever get on here and read that you said that.


You have been doing quite a job of putting words in my mouth....
Posted By: Benelli Re: 6-under State tournaments - 12/19/07 07:07 PM
This has gotten WAY off topic and it's partly my fault...I shall bow out.
Posted By: Talkwrestle Re: 6-under State tournaments - 12/19/07 08:23 PM
_________________________
1/20/2009: End of an error.

Without commenting on the two tourneys, I suggest you also omit (or they be edited) your political commentary from your posts. There are plenty of blogs for your thoughts about President Bush and the date his term ends. I frankly don't think they belong on this wrestling web site.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: 6-under State tournaments - 12/19/07 08:35 PM
Big show? 5A state championships are at Hutchinson High School.
The big show is where the big names wrestle.
The Ottawa tournament is not an official state tournament it is were the big names show up and wrestle. This is ottawa's tournament. To ask them to stop haveing their tournament so someone else can have a tournament on that week-end is not the way business is done. If your Mcdonalds you dont't ask Burgerking to let them have your corner of the market. I believe some of the topeka people feel that they for some reason have better options. It is a free market and when you try to munipulate the market it becomes a mafia.
A
Posted By: Mike's Mom Re: 6-under State tournaments - 12/19/07 08:48 PM
Benelli - I used YOUR words, I didn't add any.

As far as Ottawa is concerned, I gave them the respect they deserve for at least doing something for the 6&U age group since the state wouldn't. I just think if we are going to have a State Tournament, then all ages should be able to participate in it. End of discussion.
Posted By: J. Dale Re: 6-under State tournaments - 12/19/07 08:57 PM
First of all, what is ANY club doing with a "state" tournament. It should be handled by "the state". If a club is going to get it what about leaving it with the club that had the guts to start it. Second, I don't think anyone should be throwing the phrase "cash cow" around when our state is sitting on somewhere around 100k dollars. Third, we now have clubs fighting over hosting this? HEY STATE BOARD! WAKE UP! Put in a six and under state. We have somewhere around 2 or 3 times the number of card carrying 6u that we do 16u. And I thought the 6u's were the future of the sport.
Posted By: millspartyof5 Re: 6-under State tournaments - 12/19/07 09:13 PM
Well said J Dale. We are a member of a 100+ member kids club and we have more 6U than any other age!!

Agreed if any club should have it the one that started it should if it changes it needs to be by the state!
Posted By: rassler Re: 6-under State tournaments - 12/19/07 09:42 PM
The problem is we don't have a big enough venue to include the 6u kids at the current tournament.
Posted By: bubbasmom77 Re: 6-under State tournaments - 12/19/07 09:48 PM
WE are not a member of kansas wrestling anymore but I would just like to comment. We now live in pa again where there is not even an 8 and under state, so this year my 7 year old will be wrestling up to 10 and under to try and make it to state. I have to give some props to kansas for incorporating the 8 and unders but I do believe that the 6 and unders should also get some state recognition. We did attend ottawa last year and while it was very crowded and long it ran very smooth and stuff was very well priced. We also went to 8 and under state in topeka and it was also well run but too pricy. I dont know what the right thing to do is wether to move the 6 and under to topeka at the same time or just to recognize ottawas tourney, but I do know that there should only be 6 and under state. Also be thankful that there is an 8 and under, I wish there was one here.
Posted By: J. Dale Re: 6-under State tournaments - 12/19/07 09:48 PM
So are you saying that even though the 6u numbers are bigger they are not as important as the rest? Even I won't touch that one.
Posted By: rassler Re: 6-under State tournaments - 12/19/07 10:04 PM
I'm not saying that at all, But the older kids are already included in the state tournament so it would not be right to exclude them, Personally I think the 6u season is way too long, the state should sanction a 6u state tournament and hold it the weekend before subdistricts, the only way to include them in the current tournament would be to either exclude an age group or run a three day tournament to include them.
Posted By: J. Dale Re: 6-under State tournaments - 12/19/07 10:16 PM
I don't see it that way at all. First we are already there for weigh-ins second, if the 6u season truly is to long then how do you explain all the 6u's entered in 8u at subs. Also I thought when you build a house you build the foundation first. P.S. if you have qualifiers for the 6u you don't have 32 or 64 man brackets.
Posted By: J. Dale Re: 6-under State tournaments - 12/19/07 10:17 PM
Sorry, but if the season is to long that should be the parents decision.
Posted By: rassler Re: 6-under State tournaments - 12/19/07 10:23 PM
Maybe thats the problem with 3/4 of the 6u quitting by the time they are 16. I have been coaching for 12 years now and by the middle of february 90% of the 6u are tired of wrestling and in a lkot of cases it's the parents that coerce them into continuing. Practice 2 hours a day 3 days a week from december to march is a lot to ask of 4,5,and 6 year olds
Posted By: J. Dale Re: 6-under State tournaments - 12/19/07 10:48 PM
If you have the luxury of 2 hour practices with 6 year olds then you are doing a ton better than about 95% of the rest of us
Posted By: rassler Re: 6-under State tournaments - 12/19/07 11:33 PM
Dale how long have you been involved with kids wrestling, I'd be willing to bet you have a 6u wrestling and have been at it a year or two. Go ahead let your kid wrestle every weekend, why not get them in freestyle too that way the season will last until june. And when your kid wants to quit at 12 you'll have noone to blame but yourself. I'm glad my son is done with kids after this season he will be too old next year. I'm tired of dealing with parents who think they have a 6u olympic champion.
Posted By: J. Dale Re: 6-under State tournaments - 12/19/07 11:48 PM
Actually between wrestling, officiating and coaching i've been involved for close to 30 years. with the youngest kid i'm involved with being in 12 and under. (and yes he IS involved in freestyle and would rather wrestle it than folkstyle) It is not right that the 6 and unders work as hard or harder than most of the kids that are your sons age and get absolutely no recognition at the state level. I love people that get on here and try to be a phsycic. (Dionne Warwick went broke doing that i think) I'm just trying to use common sense. But if you would like me to come down to your level i will stick a straw in my ear and suck out half my brain. If you are going to call me out then have the guts to put your name on your post.
Posted By: Beeson Re: 6-under State tournaments - 12/20/07 03:13 AM
Rassler, since you will be glad to be out of Kids next year, why do you care about the 6U?...you don't! I don't have kids in 6U but many people do and this matters to them. Many of the wrestlers that are 6 and 7 want to have a state championship tournament. Not the parents but some of these kids want to have the title state champion. I agree with grandpa Isenberg it's not where you wrestle, but the competition you wrestle. Ottawa is where the wrestlers should start, if a wrestler wins Ottawa then go to Topeka to (for lack of better words) unite the championship. If a wrestler does not win Ottawa there is no sense to go to Topeka.
Posted By: Ell Re: 6-under State tournaments - 12/24/07 02:41 PM
I do have a 6 under and I don't think Ottawa should be forced to give up the tourney they started That is like moving the Ark City open or the Tom Faust memorial to Salina because the facility is bigger! If the state was taking over 6 under that is totally different but for one club to take it from another club just because they have a bigger facility is just not right! I my self do not like 32-64 man brackets however every tourney this year my 6 year old takes out his huge bracket to look at! He did not win, I am talking about the little bracket that you purchase. I do think that all kids of the same weight and age are in one bracket so there is one true state champ! I hate the idea of two 6 under tourneys. I would like to see them wrestle at a district tourney but I don't think that would be very feasible. I don't know the answer here but 2 tourneys is not it!!
Posted By: OMMCP Re: 6-under State tournaments - 12/26/07 02:33 PM
fight fiercly every year for districts, In fact this year it was voted on at the seeding meeting to hold district in Topeka, they fought it, They brought it up again at the district 1 meeting that it needs to be in Ottawa,


Fight fiercly..... What? I think the responce was oh well; we'll try again next year.


Definition of obsessed:
It just seems that money is the underlying factor in their reluctance to let any tourament leave Ottawa. I'm surprised they don't make the case to hold state at Ottawa, maybe they could make a few thousand more off of that.


The fact is Ottawa loves to host tournaments; we have fun with a dedicated group of caring parents, coaching staff, and community. It's OK; don't worry, be happy.

OMMCP
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