Please help me understand why we continue to put our kids at risk? I know this post will be taken several ways so let me first share that I have tried to reach the Wichita Greater Sports Commission via email & phone and have never heard anything back and now am reaching out to the forum in hopes that someone can justify why I should put our kid’s health at risk by attending this tournament. This event has the potential to be something very special for Kansas and I would argue could rival USJOC but for some reason the WGSC continues to subject kids, families, & coaches to health risk and/or injury. In a nutshell, here were my questions/concerns for the WGSC that have fallen on deaf ears that maybe someone can shine some light on.
1. Why do we continue to put individuals into an environment where the chance of contracting a skin decease is so high? There is no other tournament in the state that has the reputation like the classic and in my opinion is justified.
2. Why do we insist on putting wrestlers on a cold concrete surface covered by aged mats with inadequate cushioning to properly protect our wrestlers?
Again I know there will be several different perspectives of this post but please don’t use competiveness or the rational that every tournament has the same issues. I agree the competition is awesome here but no reason to justify putting KIDS/family/coach’s heath at risk. Secondly, if you don’t think there is a higher risk to contract a SEASON ENDING disease than another tourney please PM me that tourney so I can also rearrange our schedule next year.
Bottom line, I am not on here to bash anyone, my intentions from day one was to help make this tournament the best it could be and to keep our KIDS and families safe! Given the proximity to subs we cannot afford to put our wrestlers at risk and personally feel until the WGSC feels it in their pocket book they will not see the need to change the venue. The Derby Wrestling Club will never shy away from good competition however when the unnecessary risk becomes too great it is time to pass. We will pass this year attending what could be a great tourney in hopes that next year it will be in a venue more accommodating to those that are the most important, the kids!
Jeff Smith
Derby Head Coach
Best post I've seen on this forum in ages.
Jeff,
What is it that makes the risk of skin disease higher at this tournament than at other tournaments?
Jeff,
Can you please explain yourself?? As far as I'm concerned, this is the best Kids wrestling tournament in the state. I feel the Sports Commission does a wonderful job of putting this event on and I would encourage anyone to attend. I have been in touch with the sports commission numerous times over the past few years. They always return e-mails and phone calls promptly. Call Brian Hargrove who is the tournament director with the sports commission. You will either talk to him or receive a return call immmediately.
This event is great. The volunteers do a great job of making this the best in the state. I am not sure where you are getting your information.
I AGREE 100% with "hardyhar" this tournament could be compared with nationals and is very well ran
How about the fact that this is supposed to be a "national" caliber tournament and they run it in a livestock building. No matter how many times they mop the mats the wrestlers walk on the concrete floor and it gets right back on the mats. Or the fact that it is so crowded that you can't move matside and the coaches and wrestlers get walked all over. How about all those people and one bathroom. Just an opinion but if you want to call it a national caliber tournament why don't you start at home and run it like one in the first place.
So Jeff - Why do you do it? The tournament schedule shows at least 2 other tournaments that week. Or why not take the week off? I can't answer why you do it --- only you can.
It will never be a national tournament until it gets a better venue to wrestle in.As a parent myself I would never put my kids in unsafe conditions so if you're worried about it don't go that simple.
I have been going to the Park City Wichita Wrestling Classic for years and I must say the everyone associated with the tournament makes every effort to make it a first class event. I do know that the floor is sanitized by the management at the Kansas Coliseum and every effort is made to make it a safe environment. Via Christi Sports Medicine is on site at all times to ensure safety and care for all of the wrestlers. The mats are first class mats that are used for tournaments throughout the Wichita community all year long. The Sport Commission does take all calls and will discuss issues whenever contacted. There has been 1,200 to 1,400 kids sign up to wrestle each year for the past several years, which makes it the largest one day tournament in the State of Kansas. All in all it is a great tournament, well organized with great competition and an opportunity for young wrestlers to compete against the very best athletes from the midwest.
I think that it would be a MUCH better tournament if they moved it back to the Coliseum, their would be ALOT more space.
1,200-1,400 which is an average of 1300 wrestlers. times $20 per wrestler = $26,000 in entry fees. then add $3-$6 for each spectator. wow. and they hold it in a pig barn. that's treating it like a high caliber tourny.
Horse crap...the kids walk in it and bring it on the mat. That is the risk. What kinds of fungi can a kid get in that kind of environment? My kid has never wrestled at the Classic for that reason. One week before subs, if you get some skin fungus your state tournament chances are over. To me it's just not worth the risk.
This tournament holds the same level of risk of injury and skin disease as any other. Just because a floor is concrete and not hardwood doesn't make dirtier. It might even be cleaner! The gym floors probably don't get the disinfectants as often as the horse barn.
From my understanding, the coliseum does not cut any slack on the price for using the arena and the price, to my understanding, is outrageous. This is why the Wichita Thunder almost left Wichita and probably why there was such a push for a downtown arena in Wichita. I agree the venue, for lack of a better word, sucks. I don't think that it's a poorly put on tournament and it does draw alot of comopetition.
To be real honest, you can get a skin infection or get hurt at any tournament. Yes, the classic is crowded but we have been to tournaments this year that have be crowded as well. If you don't like the tournament, JUST DON'T GO. It is that easy. I don't think that posting nasty things about a tournament is the RIGHT thing to do. And as for holding it in a pig barn, is there any club out there that can afford the 15,000.00 per day to rent the collisium? I know that our club can't. If it was that bad of a tounament, I really doubt that they would put up the numbers that they do. Just my opinion.
You take your chance in any tounament, so go or dont, it's pretty simple. IMO its one of the few tournaments where most kids are getting alot of mat time and a good tuneup for the state qualifying tournaments.
Yea I agree, the overcrowding, conditions and all are not the best. I wouldn't say it is the worst in state though. I can think of one other tournament with way too many people, overcrowding, too hot, and very rude workers.
As expected this post has brought several different perspectives and not only is that fine but I think it’s healthy. In response to a few of the comments/questions made here are my thoughts.
RE: Hardyhar – Can you explain yourself??? I am not sure what you are looking for with your question but will offer these thoughts in hopes it clarifies my position. As I stated previously I think this could be a great tourney, something Kansas could be proud of. I have never questioned the competition at this event or the how it is ran. My question is, wouldn’t it be nice if we didn’t have to subject our kids to health issues or injury in order for our wrestlers to test their ability? Is it wrong to constructively ask why are we doing what we are doing and want something better for our kids?
RE: Disney - Why do you do it? First of all, my initial question “Please help me understand why we continue to put our kids at risk? was directed more at the WGSC than anyone. I have made the decision not to participate in this tourney but it still doesn’t change my belief that it could be a great tourney and am willing to challenge the status quo especially when kid’s health is an issue. The replies “don’t like it, don’t go, it is that simple” do nothing to make this sport or tournaments better. If that’s the majority attitude God help this sport.
As far as the health issues in question you can agree or disagree but here are a few things to ponder and possible solutions to calm everyone’s concerns.
Can you catch ringworm or any other skin disease wrestling at any other tourney, absolutely! However, I know of no other venue we wrestle in in the state that holds a horse show the week before we wrestle. I know of no other venue described as:
90,000 sq. ft. of livestock housing area (200’ x 450’)
Special Features
• Portable seating for 2,500
• Seven (7) wash racks
• Convenient water and electrical outlets
• Fourteen (14) large entrance doors (largest 24’ x 16’)Complete paging system
• Fluorescent lighting
• Cattle ties
• Up to 420 horse stalls (10’ x 10’)Up to 216 swine and sheep stalls (5’ x 10’)Up to 384 swine and sheep stalls (5’ x 6’)Truck and Trailer Parking
(Provided by the Kansas Coliseum website)
Bottom line, there are situations when the probability of contracting something are higher than other times. IMO this is definitely one of them! VanFam7 – I totally disagree with you.
If the WGSC feels comfortable with the cleanliness of this facility then why not ask the Wichita Health Department to come in, do an inspection and post their results? This could help calm everyone’s concerns. To my knowledge, correct me if I am wrong, this has never happened.
Again, I am not bashing the workers, volunteers or even the WGSC. I am however questioning that if we are putting kids at risk WHY? And, why not make it the best tourney it can be? If you had an option either to wrestle in a horse barn or, figuratively speaking, across the street in a clean and accommodating venue what would you choose? If the latter, then why not encourage a change?
Wow, way too long of a post, I apologize.
If the WGSC feels comfortable with the cleanliness of this facility then why not ask the Wichita Health Department to come in, do an inspection and post their results? This could help calm everyone’s concerns. To my knowledge, correct me if I am wrong, this has never happened.
The Wichita Health Department will not be requested to perform an inspection at the Kansas Coliseum and the related Pavilion facilities as they are owned by Sedgwick County.
Good point Richard, how about the Sedgwick County Health Department.
I agree with Jeff, If you wrestle in a horse barn you take what you get: Haven't figured out why we can't wrestle in the colisieum, it's going broke but yet we wrestle in a horse barn? We will be wrestling there due to the fact this is our only way to make money through the year, (working the tourney) I feel this could be as big or bigger than Salina's tourney but only if we don't compare our kids to livestock!!! In the past high school state was held inside the colisium, why not Wichita's biggest kids tourney??? MAYBE IN THE FUTURE WITH THE DONTOWN ARENA, STATE WILL BE HELD IN WICHITA!!!!!!! Hate to see major clubs bow out of this tourney but understand and respect all wishes..
Coming from someone who has rode horseback, worked cattle, stomped, fell down, touched, splashed in, etc. the waste of both cattle and horses, for 3 days straight without a shower, I am not going to agree that horse do do is a threat to our children's health. A good old fashioned cattle roundup never caused me to have anything other than saddle rash.
For your info, the Bicentennial center, Tulsa convention center, Topeka Expocenter, and many other venues that your kids wrestle in, have rodeos, horse shows, etc. in them as well. We are probably stepping in someone's dog crap walking in the grass on the way up to some of our high school gyms. My wife has never contracted any disease changing our kids' diapers.
Would I like to see it in the Coliseum, yes. But if it costs 15k per day, keep it where it is. If someone cares to go out on a limb and take it over, commit to the 15k per day for the coliseum, raise entry fees, etc. and run it, more power to them. $20 for this caliber of tourney is a bargain.
I'm sorry, Beeson, you and I are usually on the same page, but I believe you are missing out on a good opportunity for your kids by not wrestling the Classic.
Note that his "wife" changes the diapers. He can make many but change few....
Ms Jenni
Watch your hat!
I will never admit publicly that I have ever changed a soiled diaper. But it isn't because I am afraid of getting a skin disease. Mine doesn't stink, but my kids' does.!!!!
Great tourney, well ran and on time. We have gone for the last 4 years. Other wrestlers from our Kansas club have also attended after we went the first time and encouraged them to try it. I have never felt my son was more at risk for injury there than other tourneys, he got his butt kicked a few times by great competition, that he was at risk for. I didn't notice mats that were any older than any other. Never had a skin problem from wrestling there. On the other side of the coin, he did develop a health problem after wrestling at the State Tourney last year. Different story.
We aren't going this year, just ends too late at night for a cheapskate like me. Don't want to spend another night in a hotel. I want to drive home and it's a long drive if your match ends at 9 or 10 o'clock. If the tournament directors ever take out the dinner break and long introductions stuff we will be back that year.
Doug747, unless you were a young child rolling around on a questionable surface barely clothed a week before a qualifying tournament where if you had contracted something and not permitted to compete ending your season, I am not sure how fair your comparison is. Question, will your attitude be different if your child catches something and all their hard work this year to get to the dance is all for nothing?
I don't believe it's the question of your child catching something because it's held in the barn. I believe its people thinking their too "precious" to risk it. You can contract any skin disease at anytime, anywhere. It doesn't matter. Handwashing is the best prevention. Believe me, I'm a nurse. I am not afraid to let my son wrestle at the Classic. Some people just look "down" on places like that. It's sad that our society is like that. Again, good handwashing and hand sanitizer is the best prevention.
It is not just the skin diseases and injuries that I am worried about for my child. Yes these are risks that are at all tournaments throughout the state and the nation for that matter. Last year was our last time to participate in the Classic until the venue is changed not only due to the increased risk of skin infection (5 cases in our club the weeks after the Classic) because of the horse barn venue, but also because of the respiratory illness not only did my wrestler contract, but also the rest of my family. Upon leaving the Classic last year, I blew my nose a few times to clear out the junk and the tissue was full of brown dust filled mucus. It was at this point i thought to myself, did I just blow out a bunch of pulverized horse manure? And if that is so, how healthy is this environment not only to the wrestlers but also to the fans watching. Consequently, that following week my entire family came down with a brief episode of an acute respiratory illness, which we took some mucinex and it was mostly gone by the next weekend. However, this raised a serious question in my mind as to the potential of a more serious health risk when breathing in pulverized fecal material (it may not have been fecal material we were breathing but just breathing in large amounts of dust can also harbor some health risks as well).
By and by, the Classic hosts some great competition and i believe that this tournament could be a great tournament if it werent for it being held in the horse barn. I also agree that if the Kansas Coliseum is going to charge $15,000 per day for events then they are probably going to charge themselves right out of business (as this has been evident by losing teams because of the rent issue (Wichita Wind, Wichita Wings, almost losing the Thunder, Arena Football, High School State Wrestling this year, and I am sure the list could be longer)) As for the entry fee, raise it to $30-$40 and take it into the Arena where you will probably draw even more competitors which will drive the profits even higher and make up the difference of the rent between the two venues. Just my opinion, but if it is a money issue for the venue, then raise the entry fee and the admission price, change the venue and increase your number of participants. Until this happens I will not subject my family to the conditions of the horse barn and ultimately risk my wrestler's season so close to the State tournament.
YOu sound like Hillary or Obama. If we have a deficit, raise taxes. Do you really think that we would get more kids to pay $40 if it were in the coliseum? You would lose entries no doubt. We will be sending our novice kids to the Classic, to get them a taste of the big time, though it isn't Tulsa nationals. Now, if we told those kids that they had to pay $40 to wrestle the classic, they would not go.
If it were as easy as raising admission prices, don't you think it would have been done already.
Again, if the Classic's detractors want to run it their way, more power to them. The Sports Commission would be glad to accept their help and guarantees or success.
The concrete is cold and the mats are hard as a rock. My son dislocated his elbow there and he hasn't been back. That year eight wrestlers left in ambulances. The place is not fit to hold a major event. If you don't think there is an increase in injury risk then you are ignoring the facts.
Gross Memorial Coliseum was a great alternative but a scheduling conflict turned out to be a problem this year. Next year I would encourage ALL major Kansas clubs and all others to go to Ft. Hays. Entry fee is reasonable, plenty of hotel rooms, and the venue is awesome.
By the way. Attendance has been declining. There weren't even 1000 entrants last year. The number of out of state wrestlers is next to nothing and if you travel around the tournament is a joke around the country. The people I have dealt with have always been unapproachable and pompous. I am with Jeff, we need a different major event. NEXT YEAR lets all go to Ft. Hays. The floors are clean, it is spacious, Coach Bickley is awesome, but they have a horse barn you can go visit if you miss the smell!
I have no vested interest in the tourney, but was not convinced by the initial post by Mr. Smith.
Please give us some details about what skin disease is more likely to occur due to livestock fecal matter. I am not saying there isn't, but surely you have some opinion from a dermatologist or some medical literature that tells us about the much higher risk. Crash 99's anecdotal description of respiratory problems after the tourney is also not convincing. Unless you have those same ranchers/exhibitors coming down with the same symptoms, I can't agree with your cause and effect argument.
Cokely's description of cold floors and hard mats did have some logic to it. But is there really any difference between the hard floors/mats of Salina, Oklahoma City State Fairgrounds, or Topeka? What facts show this, if so? Do people dislocate their elbows because of the hard surface of the floor or they way they fell/someone landed on them?
I fear that people are really turned off by the presence of the manure and are reaching for reasons to criticize without evidence to support their arguments. I have no problem with people not liking the site; it is not my favorite location either. But given the fact that many other tournaments, Derby being one of them, have their own real negatives, I don't think there is really an increased risk of anything at the Classic.
Please show me the facts that have been referred to to prove I am wrong and I will be happy to change my mind.
Talkwrestle,
When was the last time you went to a tournament where eight kids left in an ambulance? Just wondering why you overlooked that factual comment.
Excellent post Talkwrestle. I would like to see the facts as well. Most of the negatives that have been sited can be said of many other tournaments. Concrete floors, events with animals/livestock,skin/illness problems, and hard mats.
I have enjoyed watching an equine event,every year, in the facility just a few steps from the back door of the Expocenter in Topeka during our Kansas Kids Championship. I personally know of many coaches/parents who go to that facility to purchase food at a reasonable price and then are on or near the mats.
I would be very interested in the data concerning the increased risk of injury in this tournament compared to other tournaments with similar numbers of participants.
I do believe every one is entitled to their opinions. But I feel better knowing my decisions are based on facts and not opinions.
I agree with Jeff completly, the classic has not been the same since they stopped having it at Century II. Great facility, and kids not walking around hourse crap all day and then bringing it on the mat. If you cram that many people in a small space you are goin to have promblems. They just need to eat ther pride and admit ther were wrong and move it back.
Jake Keplar
Circle Wrestling
Ive been wrestling since I was 4, Never been in a gym with live stock promblems and your oout side the BACK DOOR not in side
I honestly feel that the some of ones slamming the Wichita Classic are only doing so because they want the competition to move to Hays where they choose to have their kids wrestle. I also see no difference in the health risks at Classic as I do any major tourney. As for people all over hating the classic, we go to several national tourneys each year and I know lots of people who love it from other states. Yes the tournament has a very different attmosphere than all of the rest but that is part of what keeps it great. Face it there is great competition and it breaks up the monotony a little bit before the state stress starts! Also I don't even see Hays listed on the calander for that weekend. You know I personally don't enjoy the smell of horse dookie however I don't think I will give up a great tourney to keep from smelling it and honestly if I ask my kids this is their favorite tourney of the year and they don't even care about the smell!
I will just add to the pile. The officiating there is horrible! I don't know where they find some of these guys. One of them had to get a pass to leave the old folks home so he could do the tournament.
Usually these type of posts get people going. My response will put most to sleep. Sorry.
Cokeley, in formal logic your argument is called the fallacy of affirming the consequent. For example, If A, then B. B exists, therefore A must exist. It is, by definition, an invalid argument.
I did not overlook the 8 ambulances. They just don't prove anything. What were the nature of the injuries? Were they from an illegal move? Did they all result from a trauma from striking the mat? Is it because this is a competitive tourney with mostly high level wrestlers. Was there a mis-match that usually does not occur with A,B,C, and D brackets. Is it because the easy 0:15 pins of weaker kids aren't as common? You would have to compare all like factors and actually look at the reasons the ambulances were used. You are right, most "Mom and Pop" tourneys don't have such injuries.
Connecting ambulances simply has no bearing in my mind.
Now if you can show me 8 examples of throws or trauma related injuries from hitting a proven hard, cold mat with everything else remaining the same, I will reconsider my position.
I have been to nearly EVERY major kids folkstyle event you can name. I have NEVER seen the number of injuries at any other event that you see in Wichita. Officiating could be a contributor, some of the things you mention as well. You are correct, there are just many, many variables. However, the floor is colder and the mats are harder on the barn floor in Wichita. I guess I will have to invest in a stempmeter to prove this out. Will I need an accounting firm to audit my data? I am just putting my opinion down based on years and years of participating, coaching, attending, etc. The venue sucks. No arguement!
well said
Jake Keplar
Circle Wrestling
Well Cokeley, you sure do have your own opinion. I may not have been in wrestling as many years as you have been, but I have seen some tournaments that the floor is hard and cold. One being that we went to this year, but you know what? That did not deter us from going. You need SCIENTIFIC facts to prove that you contacted skin diseases or respiratory diseases for that matter. If you say that it is the over-crowding, then look at some of the tournaments this year. There were some that you could not even find a seat, because they booked too many kids. Diseases are all around us; we even carry many of them (MRSA for one) that we may not even know about. It just depends on how your hygiene is. And if your afraid to bring your wrestler to a great tournament, then so be it. That leaves room for more. And if you doubt my thinking, you can see my college diploma that says that I know what I am saying.
Anyone can get a college diploma, that doesn't mean they are smarter than everyone else. Just look at our president.
Hey, I am not stopping anyone from going to the Barn for a hoe down. Knock yourself out, literally! I am just calling it like I see it. I don't have to write a thesis to state an opinion. I am not involved with the agency that would be able to shut it down, I am just saying if it is the best Kansas has to offer it is a disgrace. I am promoting going to Ft. Hays NEXT YEAR instead of Wichita. Soften that diploma up and you might find a real use for it because I don't need to see it.
Don't need scientific facts or a college degree to give an opinion on this forum do ya? I've been involved with kids wrestling this time around for 3 years & every year have been warned about getting some skin funk at this tournament from different sources (fairly confident no hidden agendas from the sources). I've never heard that it came from horses poop until reading this thread though. If there is any kind of health concern at any tournament scientific fact or not this is the perfect place to comment on it. Isn't it?
If I can offer another view point. I think everyone can agree to disagree however hopefully those believing that there are no additional risk to the kids hopefully won’t argue that there is a large number that feel differently and have chosen not to attend for the reason mentioned before. If this can be agreed on then why wouldn’t the organizers of the event recognize this and show some effort to calm everyone’s concerns? These concerns have existed for years and yet I have seen no communication from the WGSC addressing these issues. I can only speak to Derby’s two tournaments as I have posted following them, should there be issues or concerns I would like to hear them and will address them in an effort to make the tournaments the best they can be. ESPECIALLY, if the concerns have to do with safety of those attending.
Common sense tells me that if I am losing people for the aforementioned reasons that I don’t take a don’t care attitude but go to extra efforts to address them. If you want scientific evidence of injury or skin decease, I cannot offer that. However I make decisions every day based on common sense without such scientific backings as I am sure you do.
Again, one recommendation to the organizers would be to have the appropriate agency(s) come in and provide a clean bill of health for the facility. Is that too much to ask? Would it hurt?
At what price do you compromise the safety of the kids? In my mind no amount of profits or competition justifies putting them at risk.
I am not writing to be hateful or agree with the conditions. I agree that is it is not held in the best place, but on the other hand you can contract anything anywhere. Being in a small space with a bunch of people, you can contract just about anything. I have seen, in the tournaments that we have gone to, a wrestler with obvious ringworm (not covered) wrestle. I have also known of wrestlers that had been throwing up and running a fever and still wrestle. Now I am sure there will be many instances of the same thing. I am just saying that I think the instances of contracting anything is the same everywhere.
Mr. Smith,
I think you need to re-read your initial post, including the title. You start with the risk as a given. It's not just a matter of common sense, but established fact. I have no quarrel with your club or favor with the Classic, but just can't see how such a one-sided post is correct.
I just want to know if there is such a real risk. I may reconsider attending. I don't think it cuts it to say "Well a bunch of people think it causes skin disorders and is unsafe. So we are going to boycott it until they prove our unsubstantiated claims are wrong." I don't think your request for someone to say there is no problem is unreasonable, but that's not what you said in your initial post.
Do you really believe your comments about profit and running tournaments? I dare say that at your tourney, the lone men's room near the concession stand presents much more of a risk than the minimal left-over manure at the Coliseum. Have you seen the floor and seen what the boys step in and drag to the mat? Will you rent port-a-pottys for your tourney next year? How about getting rid of the raffle tables, the t-shirt table, or moving the concession stand to ceate less congestion? I am sure the panther and and its case right in the middle of the commons aren't going anywhere. Will you turn down the heat to prevent, in my mind, the greatly increased risk of transmitting the flu and colds. Maybe you could give up about 400 entries and use the smaller gym for your miscelleanous profit centers. If money and profit don't play a role, I guess making some signigicant changes to your tourney is an option.
I apologize for criticizing your club or its tournament. But until you stop ignoring your own profits and cut your entries to the number that actually fit your facility; pay for the rental of a bigger facility that fits the number of entries; or donate some of your money from some of your profit centers to the Classic, I think you should keep a tight grip on the stones in your glass house.
This may just be the one topic all year long that makes me mad enough to even post in this forumn. Do you all mark your calendars as to when to start complaining about the horse manure in the barn at the Wichita Classic. If you researched all the major facilites were kids wrestle you might be shocked at the types of events that are held there. My kids wrestle and show horses and I guarentee you that the facilites where some of our horse shows are held would put the little local town gymansium to shame for cleanliness. If you don't like the venue for this tournament than it is your God given right not to go.
I thought I would post a few SCIENTIFIC facts that some people have requested. Just some background about myself, I do have several college degrees. I work as a paramedic and emergency room nurse. I have seen about every type of skin infection out there.
As far as livestock facilities go there are several documented animal to human contamination. Some caused by zoonotic pathogens (which means an organism spread from an animal to human). Just to state a few types of skin infections that can occur- equine morbillivirus (hendra virus), salmonellosis, cryptospordiosis, leptospirosis, yersiniosis, campylobacter, and ringworm. Yes, these all sound bad but usually with treatment they do clear up quickly. But that brings up the point that most people do not do good skin checks on their kids at home which brings it to the mat for all of our kids (this is another soap box that I will get on some other time). People are also not being educated on the antibiotic resistance that is occuring with some of the bacterial infections. Antibiotics are being placed in animal feed to promote faster weight gain. Which is allowing the bacteria strains to mutate and become resitant to most antibiotics. I think that I could go on forever about this whole subject, but I won't bore you all.
We also have not gone to the Wichita Classic. I think that because of some of my knowledge I am a little more cautious about certain things. I think that the main point should just be common sense though and educating yourself to all the things out there that your child can contract (not just from a horse barn). I carry purrel in every bag that we own for while we are at tournaments. As soon as we leave a tournament my son washes with antibacterial soap and then selsum blue. We have managed to only get ringworm once in the 5 years he has wrestled and nothing else.
I will say while we do need to watch for MRSA, I have seen 3 recent cases in the ER from sport contact.
J. Cassaboom
I don't think it's just the manure. It's just not a good place for a tournament. Especially the kind of tournament Wichita is trying to have. If Wichita's attitude becomes if you don't like it then don't come, I promise you they won't come. Will is telling you he already hasn't been been coming. Numbers are down.
I don't know if it still is, but when I went to school Wichita was the biggest in the state. Salina, Hays, Hutch, and others are having tournaments in the kind of venue this one should be in.
It is easy to take criticism of our tournaments personally and get defensive. Sometimes we need to listen to the customer.
windjammer, I don't disagree or agree that this is the best place to host this tournament. I am not in any way a part of this tournament or how it is run(except for my son wrestling there). I am just so tired of this ongoing discussion about horse barns and horse manure. The comments that seem to belittle the horse show industry and portray it as this filthy, bacteria infested, hick filled industry that makes me upset. If those that want to throw those types of comments around want to tell me the amount of times that have attended horse shows and seen the levels at which they are run, then I may be able to swallow those comments. When I read a comment that someone has been to that specific horse show in above mentioned venue and seen the mounding piles of manure rotting on the floor, that I would possibly agree with the statement that the venue does indeed present a risk to my children, which are probably infested with said bactaria, from being around such utter filth as the horse show industry. If someone feels just cause to email me to get the names of my own children so that their kids don't wrestle them and run the risk of getting a skin infection because they are hard working kids that from time to time have contact with horse manure I would be happy to oblige.
Heres an interesting side note, neither for or against, just food for thought. I'm probably not the only one that has seen the reports about how your kitchen counter is more bacteria infested then your bathroom toilet. As someone mentioned earlier in the thread the cleaner/disinfectant is probably of the ness. proportion to handle the need. For any of us that have grown up on a farm, playin in the barn, rollin in the hay...(keep it clean now) we could vouch that a pig, horse or a cow probably hasnt given us an infectious skin disorder. Like I said, just food for thought.
Health Dept. seal of approval shouldnt be to much to ask for either, in my opinion.
Talkwrestle – I will concede that my initial comments and title could be misunderstood, in my opinion and several others there is little doubt this venue holds a higher risk of injury and skin disease. With that said it is important to understand I only would like to see this tournament to be something Kansas can be proud of. Given the number of views and times this topic has come up can you not say it is a concern. Do you know of any other tourney in Kansas with the reputation equal to this one (don’t post it if you do).
As far as your comments regarding Derby’s tourney and as I posted right after the tourney, I welcome all “constructive criticism” and will not make excuses for the areas we fell short in, only a promise that we will work on these and correct them to make it the best it can be. I do not know who you are but am sure I have never received an email or phone call from you sharing your concerns. If you would like to discuss Derby’s tourney I would be happy to discuss it on another topic, email or phone. Lastly, I can promise you this, we as a club will never compromise kid’s safety for profits. Absolutely no way!
I have one last thing to say about this topic. I agree that the Classic is not held in the best place. But I do believe that my child has a better chance of contracting a skin disease or respiratory illness in a crowded gym with coughing people, where it is way too hot. That just spreads the germs further. I believe that my child gets more competition at the Classic than alot of places.
Tulas nationals is wrestled with only an insulating foam barrier between the mats and the ICE HOCKEY floor.
Is the horse barn the best place for a tourney? No. Is Fort Hays an option? If Fort Hays puts a tourney on that same weekend, it will be an option. This year's Hays tourney did not even have a 14u division. We'll go where the best competition is at, whether it be Hays or Classic.
I don't know if anyone else feels this way, but I don't like the insinuation that some on this board make, that if we go to the Classic, we are not looking out for the safety of our kids. If we wanted to protect our kids from being injured, we wouldn't let them participate in any sport except SOCCER!!! Much less a sport like wrestling or football.
That soccer comment will get me back on COkeley's good side!!!
Soccer is number 3.
U.S. SPORTS INJURIES — 2002
(Top 25)
TOTAL
(000) (%) E.R.
INJURIES
(000)
TOTAL 20,145 100.0 3,358
Basketball 2,783 13.8 521
Running/Jogging 1,654 8.2 *
Soccer 1,634 8.1 259
Football (Tackle) 1,084 5.4 351
Softball 1,063 5.3 122
Strength Training 1,062 5.3 *
Volleyball 667 3.3 128
Football (Touch) 661 3.3 *
Martial Arts 610 3.0 *
Baseball 602 3.0 *
Fitness Walking 529 2.6 *
Bicycling (Recreational) 445 2.2 109
Tennis 415 2.1 *
Ice Hockey 415 2.1 171
Skateboarding 399 2.0 103
Walking (Recreational) 384 1.9 *
Cheerleading 323 1.6 *
Golf 291 1.4 *
Skiing (Downhill) 289 1.4 *
Aerobics (Net) 279 1.4 *
Horseback Riding 265 1.3 *
Roller Skating (In-Line) 252 1.3 105
Snowboarding 218 1.1 *
Hunting 207 1.0 103
Mountain Biking 201 1.0 *
* Less than 100,000
SOURCE: AMERICAN SPORTS DATA, INC.
Copyright © 2006, American Sports Data, Inc. All rights reserved.
Thank the Lord that I don't allow my kids to play such a dangerous sport!!
Nice to know wrestling is safer than that ultra dangerous "recreational walking".....I think these stats just might be scewed by the number of participants.
24/7
Recreational walking is quite dangerous. You can be walking along having some recreation, then WHAM! You break a leg.
Just wanted to say this has been a very good thread!!!! We all should be more aware of the risks at all tourneys that we go to. I think that yes you can contract a skin disease from any tournament, but Jeff does have a good point. Why do they not have it at Century II anymore or in the colliseum?
I would love to see more awareness at all the tournaments on MRSA. I had another case of it in the ER today.
I don't know about sports injuries but I did read that more people die from vending machines falling on them than from snake bites.
I think the people who have horses, pigs, cattle or any other livestock in the building should be forced to put diapers on those animals. That would end all that poop.
I hear plenty of kids in S.W Kansas,Oklahoma,Texas,Colorado are wrestling here.March 8-9.http://newmexicojuniorwrestling.com/
I am a complete newby to the board with no WC agenda whatsoever. My son is a first year wrestler and will not be going to the WC because I don't feel he is ready yet for that level of competetion.
With that being said. I know a little about animals particularly livestock animals. The post from the person who is a nurse was very spot on in relation to possible transmissible microorganisms that are a concern with livestock.The one correction or rather point of contention that I have with that was the discussion of antibiotics fed to livestock adding to the risk. It is true that antibiotics are frequently fed to ruminant animals for weight gain and improved feed effieciency,they are commonly reffered to as ionophores.
However Show quality animals are fed and treated much differently than food production animals. I think in 98/100 of these animals you would not find ionophores being fed to these "pets". Most of those animals are fed exacting and well managed diets free of additives designed to add the most weight in the shortest amounts of time before slaughter.If the Coliseum does allow livestock production sales in this facility I would be much more concerned.
And it is these show types of animals that are typically brought around the country for shows and exhibits.I would be interested to see the method they use to clean and sanitize this facility after such shows. The floor could easily be checked for the presence of dangerous pathogens and microorganisms with some random swab tests around the floor surface. What something like that would cost I'm not exactly sure. But I would think that anytime you would be putting mats directly on the surface that livestock has recently used it would be mandated like the increased water sample tests in the Arkansas river just before Riverfest.
do they sanatize the pigs that those very same kids try to catch in a greased pig contest. do they santize those sheep that those kids do the mutton bustin with. we are around this all the time but I do not ever think I have ever seen anything come out of this. if you feel that you might catch something watch who you sleep with and dont bring your kid is all i can say.
I have been to this tournament several times. The facility is horrible, It's a cold horse barn. The last time we went they had an eighty year old cross eyed referee, The only thing he could see was his own nose. We haven't been back for three years and will never return.
That is one of the meanest things I've ever seen on this forum! That referee probably reads this. I've been watching him for 7 years now and I will say that does a good job! He's got more experience and knowledge than all of them combined. He is certainly better than the younger ref with 20/20 vision that we got in Salina! Keep your mean comments to yourself!
I would suggest putting this one to rest and call out Jamie and Adam from mythbusters. They surely can test the floor for bacteria and see what is truly coming out of the animals read end. It is worth a shot.
http://dsc.discovery.com/fansites/mythbusters/mythbusters.html
While entertaining, El Duque is not the problem with the barn in my opinion.
Given the number of post and views in less than a week it is obvious that this is an important issue to many. Hopefully if nothing else, the WGSC will recognize that and I would strongly encourage them to be more open and communicate proactively with the wrestling community.
I think it is also safe to say that everyone would like, as safe and enjoyable experience as possible at this event. I like the comment previously made, sometimes you have to listen to the customer! As I have tried to communicate, I am only interested in making this tourney something Kansas can be proud of. It is not to bash any of the clubs that volunteer or organize it.
Given the time of the year there are a few things to consider. Foremost it is critical that extra efforts are taken to ensure the safety of our kids. Any skin disease or mild injury a month into the season is not that big of a deal, a week before subs could be season ending. Why not go the extra mile? Secondly, considering that a lot of the other state’s wrestling seasons have wrapped up, offers a great opportunity to attract even more out of state competition to a 1st class tourney. In my mind that is one reason the competition is so good at the classic, just imagine what it would be if it was held in a well respected venue?
I always feel it is important if you have concerns or constructive criticism that you also help find a solution. Hopefully my comments below will prove that.
This morning I had a great (educational) phone conversation with Paul Gilbert, President of Resilite Sport Products Inc. Paul also serves as Sub-Committee Chair for American Society of Testing and Materials International (ASTMI). ASTM set the standards for all sorts of products in varying industries including the manufacturing of wrestling mats (for reference Google ASTM 1081-97 “Standard Specification for Competition Wrestling Mats”). Paul shared several things worthy of sharing here to help educate everyone reading this. Interesting, according to Paul a cold surface does not adversely change the qualities of the mat. In fact, an excessive hot environment will have more of a negative effect on the mat’s shock-absorbing properties than a cold environment. He also advised that mats can last as long as 25 years and still be safe. Although there are specific test that can be performed to assure the safeness (F 355-01 “Standard Test Method for Shock-absorbing Properties of Playing Surface Systems and Materials) of the mats it would not be feasible to conduct these on site. However Paul recommended that there are still things that can help ensure the safety of the wrestlers. First, although the thickness of the mat can lead to misconceptions of its safety, he recommends a minimum of 1 in. It should be easy enough for the organizers to get confirmation from whoever is lending the mats that they meet ASTM specs. Along with a visual inspection looking for compressed areas that don’t meet the 1inch criteria or any obvious flaws and communicating these steps have been done would hopefully calm some of the concerns. I will be honest some of the finding surprised me but am happy to share the results.
Secondly, it is again important to understand what measures are being put in place to protect those attending. As indicated in a previous post, Via Christi’s Sports Medicine has been and will be on site. Along with EMS, I think this is great, however with the exception of the prescreen for skin disorders Via Christi performs it is important to understand that their roles are reactive in nature and not proactive. It is not their role to determine the safeness of the venue only to attend to those that are injured (reactive). Considering that prevention is the best way to eliminate injury or health issues, it would be nice to know what measures are being taken to again ensure the safety of those attending.
Lastly, the issue that the venue is contaminated to an unsafe level –whether it is or isn’t, I do not know with 100% certainty. I do know this though, the perception is there and sometimes perception is reality. I have not visited with the Sedgwick County Health Department or any health agency for that matter but would think if the appropriate tests were performed and they came back clean, it would calm and change the opinions of many.
In conclusion, (finally) are there issues keeping this tourney from being a great tournament? Can those be improved? In my opinion both answers are yes but strongly believe it starts with communication. If we hear nothing we have to make up our own conclusions, right or wrong. I as many have always said this could rival some of the national tourneys especially given the time of the year (other state’s seasons are over). It will however never happen in its current condition.
Good luck to everyone that attends, hope to see you at State.
Although the temperature of the mats may not affect their shock absorbing ability, the temperature of wrestlers wearing singlets is important in their flexibility and shock absorbing ability in my opinion.
Have you ever tried to roll up a cold mat? I don't believe Mr. Gilbert. I do agree when exposed to extreme hot they are too soft but when they are cold they are harder. I have my mats up off of the concrete on plastic pallets and they are great when the temperature is 65 to 70 but 55 to 65 they are hard. None of my mats are Resilite so maybe I need to buy one!
Just curious, in all the years of the tournament have there ever been any outbreaks, epidemics or just large number of people complaining of infections or illnesses?
My name is Brian Hargrove and I am Director of Events and Marketing at the Wichita Sports Commission. Myself and Bob Hanson, President & CEO of the Wichita Sports Commission just got off the phone with Jeff Smith and listened to his concerns. We would like to state the following...
#1) - Pavilion II is thoroughly cleaned before the event. Bob and myself each are on hand as the Coliseum staff cleans Pavilion II before the mats are placed in the facility. They use power sweepers and washers, mops, disinfectant and odor control powders.
#2) - The mats used for the event are the same mats used for many other tournaments that your kids may wrestle. We hire eight clubs to assist us in running the tournament and they each provide 1 or 2 mats for the tournament. These clubs are not going to provide "aged mats" that would add risk to kids in this tournament. These clubs that help us each have 50-60 kids wrestling from their own club. Do you really think they are going to give us "aged mats" that could cause harm to their own kids??
#3) - Via Christi Sports Medicine is on site at all times on Friday night during weight ins and Saturday for the entire event. EMS is on hand at all times, also. If there is ever any injury that occurs, we have first class staff on hand to treat injuries.
The reason we put on this event is for the kids. We strive to make this the best, first class event in the state. We take every safety step necessary to make sure that the kids are safe and there are no risks of serious injury. Unfortunately, as is the case in any tournament, injuries happen. They happen in many tournaments that kids wrestles in. It is not because they are wrestling on bad mats or hard floors. It is very similar at many events.
The Sports Commission takes great pride in this tournament and the success that it has had over the past decade. And, we plan on continuing this great tournament for many years to come. We have listened to Jeff's concerns and others and plan on taking safety measures necessary to bring comfort to every parent or coach out there. We know and recognize there are concerns and we plan to address them the best way we can and assure everyone we have the safety of all wrestlers as our number one concern.
We take great pride and make every effort to return all calls and e-mails. If anyone out there has any concerns that they would like to address, please e-mail me at bhargrove@visitwichita.com. I would be more than happy to discuss this with you one on one instead of attacking one another on a message board.
Thank you for taking the time to read this and I will see you on March 8.
Brian Hargrove
Director of Events
Wichita Sports Commission
Brian Hargrove Just wondering how much would the entry fees have to be to have it at the coliseum.
Brian have you been to Salina's Tournament? That is first class.
My son has been wrestling for 5yrs. never been to your tournament for all the reasons I've herd of, was going to try it this year but having second thoughts. your telling us that between the other 8 clubs involved you cant rent the coliseum for a day..were does all the money go.
I am going to take some time to calm down and will post my thoughts on our conversation tomorrow. I hope to provide additional insight into our phone call at that time.
Just put the tournament in the coliseum and make one of the best in the state. Their shouldn't be any profits that doesn't benefit the wrestlers of kansas anyway.
I have never been involved in hosting a tournament, so take these numbers w/ a grain of salt. I have to be missing something. Below is just a simple guess? I have no clue.
Wrestlers 1400
Fee $20.00
Total + $28,000.00
Adults 2000
Fee $6.00
Total + $12,000.00
Kids 300
Fee $3.00
Total + $900.00
Officials 25
Fee $175.00
Total - $4,375.00
Colliseum - $15,000.00
Total Income $21,525.00
Clubs 8
Profit / Club $2,690.63
What am I missing besides concession which brings more money to the clubs. I see I'm missing awards. Surely the concession would pay for the awards? I've never been to this tournament, and am guessing on the adults/children attendance, and someone said earlier that this tournament used to have 1400 wrestlers. Are there more officials? Are there less adults?
Couldn't you get more people into the colliseum which would bring more money? Couldn't you get more wrestlers into the colliseum which would bring more money? There has to be a reason why they don't have it at the Colliseum?
Could someone sharper than myself put a pencil to this that knows what it takes to run a tournament. I'm curious how the numbers would look.
Like Mr. Smith said, Wichita could make this a one of a kind tournament in Kansas.
what ever happened to centruy II to much money $ or like normal did some upset sombody else
First of all thank you Brian for sharing WGSC’s thoughts on this forum with the wrestling community and potential customers of the WGSC organized tournament.
While my response will be professional I have the luxury that I do not have to be politically correct and therefore will be very candid. It is important to understand these are my feeling and opinions and would encourage everyone to visit with Mr. Hanson to formulate your own opinion.
I was excited to learn that Brian and I would have the opportunity to visit, I however never imagined what took place would occur. From the onset of our 47 minute conversation it was clear I was the enemy and not a parent, coach and customer who had genuine intentions. The best description I can give is “Hostile”. I will not share all the dirt of the conversation on this forum as it may be counterproductive. I will however share some key points of our conversation that will hopefully provide insight for those that care about this tourney.
According to Mr. Hanson
*This tourney was moved from Century II as the result of the contract not being renewed. The date then was secured by the Home & Garden Show and will never be available again.
*The WGSC took over and moved it to the current location. The cost for the Pavilion II is 11k a day.
*There are eight clubs that help with this tourney and also share in the profits. The WGSC made 5k last year.
*The Coliseum has to be rented for two days and the high school paid 35k-40k to rent this last year.
The rest of the conversation I will summarize with the following remarks.
Following a statement by Mr. Hanson that they are interested in both, giving the kids an opportunity to wrestle and the safety of those attending, I asked if he would share with me what are the steps they will take to ensure the safety. Mr. Hanson’s reply, I don’t have to! I advised him that I would share his comment to which he later insisted I share this, we have listened to your concerns and will make every effort to ensure the safety of the wrestlers. (As promised, Mr. Hanson.)
I had hoped for a better dialogue and ultimately a higher comfort level, unfortunately I am far from that now. Mr. Hargrove, I again want to thank you for your time. I had heard good things about you and would be happy to visit with you again anytime and would love to have the Wichita Eagle present.
For the record Mr. Hanson, I don’t care about how much money you can raise in one phone call. What I do care about is the safety of our kids. You and I will never speak again!
Jeff,
There is one part of your last post that I would like to have the opportunity to address.
This is not a true statement
"*The WGSC took over and moved it to the current location...
"
The history of the Wichita Classic (Please correct me if I am incorrect)
***The Wichita Classic was founded by two wrestling clubs (Goddard and Derby) who did a wonderful job of managing the tournament.
***The Wichita Classic was held in Century 2 for a number of years.
***The Home and Garden Show beat the clubs to renew the contract with Century 2 management and locked in a long-term contract.
***The CLUBS moved the tournament to the Kansas Coliseum.
***The first year the tournament was moved to the Kansas Coliseum complex it was held in Pavilion 1.
For those of you who are not familiar, I believe this Pavilion has a dirt floor. In order to accomodate the mats, plywood was laid on the ground and the mats were layed on top of the plywood. The mats were in 3 rows (Could have been 2)
***The CLUBS moved the tournament into its current location and served as the tournament hosts for the first two years in the "Horse Barn".
***One of the clubs decided they paid their dues and wanted out of managing the tournament. (They had done a wonderful job up to that point)
***The other club needed a partner and together they approached the GWSC to partner with them.
***The club that wanted out helped for a year or two then stepped aside.
***Jointly the other club and the GWSC have put on the Wichita Classic until this year.
***I believe that this is the first year that the GWSC has been the sole organizer of the Wichita Classic.
If any part of this is incorrect please feel free to share.
The history of the Wichita Classic (Please correct me if I am incorrect)
***The Wichita Classic was founded by two wrestling clubs (Goddard and Derby) who did a wonderful job of managing the tournament.
I believe the Andover club was in the initial group who organized this. That was why for years they didn't have a tournament of their own.
***The first year the tournament was moved to the Kansas Coliseum complex it was held in Pavilion 1.
I am almost certain at least one year the tournament was held IN the Coliseum itself. I remember there being a huge ice storm that year which I believe the Coliseum stuck the host clubs with some hidden charges for heating that caused the tournament to go back to Century II for a couple of years.
USE AND MAINTENANCE
A wrestling mat should be used at room temperature (approx. 70 degrees) to maximize performance (keeping in mind that heat rises and the floor will be cooler). At 55 degrees, though not frozen, the impact protective properties will be greatly diminished.
Found this information at matsmatsmats.com
Steve, thanks for the reply, you will have a better idea of the history than I.
Clive - interesting point!
Jeff,
Two years ago I spoke with the same two gentlemen as well as Mr. Brewster from the Goddard Club. They were not interested in boosting attendance, making it easier to enter, going online with more information, improving safety, or any ideas from the outside. I told them that it appeared they were clearly not in it for the kids. I was verbally beat up and having already lost $5,000 out of pocket for elbow surgery, I decided it was time to permanently part ways and find a better big time tournament for Kansas. Hays was on the cusp last year as their attendance exceeded that of the Classic but a date snafue derailed their momentum this year. Next year I will work long and hard with Bryan Schumacher to try to get Hays up to a status where it might be known as the Prairie Nationals! It is close to Colorado and Nebraska and there is commercial air service available. I would hope we could pull in some more entrants from out west and get the Okies to drive a little extra. The fact that doesn't lie is that the numbers have been declining at the classic. They didn't even have 1,000 entrants the past two years. Pompousness and arrogance will get you no where in a world where the customer is always right. Wichita Classic may very well rest in peace in the very near future.
sportsfan02,
You may be correct and there may have been other clubs involved with the tournament initially. I do not know all of the history past about 12 years or so.
I can say that in the last 12 years the Classic has never been inside the main arena.
From a financial standpoint it is not feasable to put the tournament inside the arena.
Here are the main problems with putting it inside the arena.
1)Size of the Arena: Under the current format (One Day Tournament) it takes 14 full size mats to accomodate the tournament with 21 wrestling surfaces. I believe only 9 or 10 mats fit inside the main arena? That would create a loss of between 5 and 10 wrestling surfaces. How would the tournament make up that lost wrestling time without getting done at 1 AM?
2)Time: The tournament would have to be atleast a 1 1/2 day tournament (Similar to JOC). I personally love the idea!!
3)Cost: I believe Coliseum charged KSHSAA around $15,000 per day to use the main arena. Because of Space it would require two days rent or $30,000. I do not see how the tournament would even break even at that point.
An example of what it would cost to put it in the main arena...
Outgoing Rent $(30,000)
Awards $(3,700)
Officials $(6,750)
Mats (Clubs) $(15,000)
$(55,450)
Incoming Entry Fees (20*1500) $30,000
Gate $9,600
Concessions $-
$39,600
Loss $(15,850)
In addition here are the actual numbers from the classic for the last two years: 2006: 1,151 2007: 1,098 (I beieve both of these numbers are over 1,000)
I can also say that there is a new manager over the Coliseum and he has been working with the GWSC to address issues.
A great example of this is internet service. The GWSC asked that internet service be placed inside the Pavillion so that the GWSC could possibly use TrackWrestling to manage the tournament and make the entire tournament available on-line. They are working hard to try to make that happen!
The previous manager of the Coliseum was legendary for his unwillingness to work with people (Just call KSHSAA and ask them about the high school tournament)
I very much want to see the Wichita Classic succeed and grow into a national caliber tournament, possibly even a 2 day event, that all of District 2 can be proud of!
However, I also believe that there are just certain things that are beyond the control of the GWSC!!
Let me offer some options for getting into the main arena:
1) Because each club is a non-profit organization, they should ban together and petition Sedgiwck County for a reduced fee to have the arena for two days!!!
2) Clubs from District 2 should volunteer their mats and their table workers to put on the tournament. The added savings would almost pay for the second day of renting the tournament.
We (District 2) should step up and work together to make the Wichita Classic better and work for positive change not bash each other or the organization that has kept the tournament alive for the last several years!
If we cannot change the building, we should still work together to figure out a way to make the situation better than it is!
I always look at the motivation for why people do what they do or say what they say.
Some people make choices because they want to bring about positive change (Jeff Smith- I appreciate your motivation, your intentions are honorable, not necessarilly the method).
While others make choices because they have a personal agenda or are angry.
I hope that I have not offended anyone but rather given people a positive motivation to make the situation better.
Thank You
Mr. Cokeley,
I would be more than happy to show you our #'s from the previous 2 years showing that participation in the classic is well over 1000 both years. However, many of us know that you have a personal agenda against the classic. So, continue to lie if you want, but those close to the tournament know the truth. Be a man and talk to me one one one instead of throwing out lies about the classic.
Thank you...
Brian S. Hargrove
Director of Events and Marketing
Greater Wichita Area Sports Commission
100 S. Main, Suite 100
Wichita, Kansas 67202
Work (316) 265-6236 Cell (316) 990-7689
http://www.wichitasports.comHome of the Coleman Company - Johnny Bench Award
Apparently I struck a nerve...
During the past two years when the entries have been posted I simply copied them into a spreadsheet and the count was in the high 900's two years ago and I think around 950 last year. If not all of the entries were posted then those are not the facts. I did not lie only represented what was made available. I think everyone will agree that the number of participants has been in decline as they were once in the 1200's. I apologize if the facts I stated are in error but I did not intentionally lie.
has the horse barns been remodeled? i have talked to lots of people that said, there were several announcements last year that it would be remodeled, just wondering
Yes it has been remodeled.
I have rented the Arena Building at the coliseum several times for paintball tournaments and it is only $1200.00 plus utilities for the weekend. If I remember right it is like $2000-2500.00 plus utilities for Pavilion 2 for the weekend! If they are cleaned up and out Saturday night it would be even less.
Steve, thank you for your efforts and comments here. Your approach by also providing recommendations is right on. I also think you have given some great ideas regarding Dist 2 coming together.
I am not necessarily a believer in "the ends justifies the means", but if at the end of the day our kids are protected and the tourney gets better, I am willing to live with the method I took.
Take care.
Mr. Cokeley,
I would be more than happy to show you our #'s from the previous 2 years showing that participation in the classic is well over 1000 both years. However, many of us know that you have a personal agenda against the classic. So, continue to lie if you want, but those close to the tournament know the truth. Be a man and talk to me one one one instead of throwing out lies about the classic.
Thank you...
Brian S. Hargrove
Director of Events and Marketing
Greater Wichita Area Sports Commission
100 S. Main, Suite 100
Wichita, Kansas 67202
Work (316) 265-6236 Cell (316) 990-7689
http://www.wichitasports.comHome of the Coleman Company - Johnny Bench Award
Apparently I struck a nerve...
During the past two years when the entries have been posted I simply copied them into a spreadsheet and the count was in the high 900's two years ago and I think around 950 last year. If not all of the entries were posted then those are not the facts. I did not lie only represented what was made available. I think everyone will agree that the number of participants has been in decline as they were once in the 1200's. I apologize if the facts I stated are in error but I did not intentionally lie.
"Keep in mind that all private email is considered to be copyrighted by the original author. If you post private email to a public list or board, or forward it to an outside party in whole or in part, you must include the author's permission to post the material publicly. Not doing so can get you into some deep doo-doo legally or with your friends and associates. Think of it this way... how would you feel if a personal private email that you had written for a specific purpose/person is then plastered across the Internet or forwarded to folks you do not know? Always ask for permission before forwarding or posting any private emails!"
http://www.netmanners.com/courtesy1.html
I agree that Hays is going to be the premiere tournament in the state on this weekend. Jr. Cardinals will not take any athletes to the wichita tournament. We will in fact take 25-40 to Hays next year and for many years to come.
Prairie Nationals??? Kind of has a nice ring to it!!
[/quote]
"Keep in mind that all private email is considered to be copyrighted by the original author. If you post private email to a public list or board, or forward it to an outside party in whole or in part, you must include the author's permission to post the material publicly. Not doing so can get you into some deep doo-doo legally or with your friends and associates. Think of it this way... how would you feel if a personal private email that you had written for a specific purpose/person is then plastered across the Internet or forwarded to folks you do not know? Always ask for permission before forwarding or posting any private emails!"
http://www.netmanners.com/courtesy1.html [/quote]
Give me a break...there isn't and shouldn't be any expectation of privacy!!
We also will skip the Wichita tournament this year.Hays definetly next year.Sounds like to many lies down south.
Let's keep the tournament alive until we can get it moved to the new arena in downtown Wichita.
Anything that is sent over email can be read by anybody that knows how to access it. Nothing is private in the computer age. It all goes in to hidden files in your computer and in the processor of your and their internet provider. SO HOW PRIVATE IS IT REALLY GOING TO BE?
Don't want anyone to know do write it down.
Our club is taking approx 20-25 wrestlers to this years Classic. For our family it will be the 5th time to attend. We have always enjoyed the Classic and will continue to attend. My biggest complaint of the past has been only that you are not allowed to bring in coolers. As far as the cold cement floor...have you been to Tulsa Nationals?? It is held over a Hockey Arena...I had a light jacket on the entire time...and was still chilled. The bathrooms were not clean...except for the first 1hr or so...but what do you expect? My son cleaned the bottoms of his shoes each time he got back from the restroom and prior to wrestling. We take our own precautions by using the foam skin protection prior to each practice session, each weekend tourney and have our sons shower as soon as we reach home. Our club mats are cleaned prior to and after practice..so we try to control our environment as much as we can. Still no one has any control over the opponent and the precautions they take. So do your best to keep your child free of skin disease and hope that everyone else is doing the same.
I grew up on a farm so don't worry too much about the manure...have smelled it in the past at the Classic...never saw a sign of any inside of the facility. We take it sleeping bags/lawn chairs/dvd players, etc and set up in a corner with our entire club...we all enjoy each other and watching good matches. I will admit that there are a few injuries...but last year at our subdistrict there were more than I would care to see.
Hope to see you there on the 8th of March.
we clean clean clean etc an still my son got a skin condition shower everyday what can you do
According to my pediatrician, Selsom Blue slightly left on the skin is a good deterent for a fungal skin condition.
We live on a farm and raise horses, cattle, and hogs. My kids have shown in all the area's of Park City, Kansas Expo Center, and American Royal/Kemper Arena. They have gotten more infections from a human contact(handshake), then livestock. I believe you are unaware of the health regulations that are required to show livestock in some of these venues, these animals go thru blood tests and vet checks just to leave the farm. My oldest is 16 and I honestly can't remember him getting any type of skin infection from the animals. If you think a cow or horse hasn't crapped in the coliseum part you would definately be mistaken, back in the day(80's) it housed several national horse shows. FYI - some of these animals cost more then my kids and are pampered in ways I only wish I was.
Bottom Line-if you don't feel it is safe, don't go.
With all due respect, showing horses in all parts of Park City etc. or even raising livestock is not the same as jamming 3000+ people of which 1200 kids ages 4-16 with possible cuts and scrapes into a horse barn only to wrestle on a potentially unsafe surface! Take your son, have him roll around on the mat barely clothed with a few scrapes at the end of the tournament 3600 times at 3 minutes a pop or roughly 180 hours and then let’s see what he catches. My point is taking one individual and his/her experiences is not a fair way to summarize the risk for everyone in there! Here is a concept address the perception that there is a risk, communicate what is being done to protect everyone and make the tournament better. Not simply take the attitude don't like it don't go!
One other comment, given the concern around the Classic’s venue, this last weekend while attending Liberty Nationals I took extra effort to look for things common or uncommon to the Classic. In a nut shell here is what I noticed. Excellent wrestling mats and no indication that there was a horse show right before (may have been don’t know for sure). The other thing I noticed or didn’t notice was the presence of skin foam everywhere. Here you have a National tournament with kids from all across the country attending, more than twice the size of the Classic and I didn’t see one application or hear of any applications of skin foam. Can the same be said about the Classic? Why is that? Does it need to be like that? The only difference between the events (for the purpose of this discussion) is venue, in fact given the number of wrestlers attending and all the places they came from I would think people would perceive a higher risk.
Something to ponder.
If your kids are stepping in horse manure then they are obviously running around outside in thier wrestling shoes where they should not be anyway. I have never seen a pile of horse manure in the facility during classics. As for crash99 maybe you should leave the city limits once in a while and quit sheltering your kids from every possible danger that may come thier way. We didn't get into this sport because it was the safest or easiest, get tough or go home (or should I say stay home), by the way, make your kid take a shower after every tournament and you won't have to worry about skin diseases.
4boys that is a misconception. Your kids can take a shower after every tournament and still contract ringworm. If they are exposed to it in the morning and don't shower until 7 or 8 pm they already have it.
is there confirmed skin case's from this tourney or what. stuff happens deal with it an move on..
Pittdogg, interesting post. "stuff happens deal with it an move on.." with subs the following week, if your wrestler comes down with something he will not be moving on!
Considering their hard work all year and the fact the risk could have been lowered, that would be a shame!
lowering the risk they should....... not moving on if you contract something.... see your doctor get proper treatment a note an by rule they cant keep you from competing..
I know for positive that there was skin foam used at Liberty over the weekend. We did not attend but kids from our club did and they did use it as they do at EVERY tournament....Tulsa, Brute, Park City, and as they and we will at subs and hopefully district and state. It is a good preventitive to be used every time...the cleanest facility can still have a wrestler that has ring worm that somebody didn't catch at weigh in..wrestling on your kids mat. Nobody cleans the mats between each match...so better take care of your own kids as best you can.
I myself would like to see Park City at a higher quality facility like Liberty ...(Brute changed venues this year and I am glad)...with seats w/backs, additional bathrooms, more concessions at a lesser cost....better mats, quality refs as they make a huge difference in whether or not your kid gets hurt while wrestling a match. But until it moves I am sure that we will continue to attend.
Why not just post that you would like to see the venue change to a better location and ask for assistance or suggestions as to how that can be achieved. Instead of dogging a facility and the people who run a good tournament? I think that you would go alot further in the long run.
I have followed this thread over the last 1 ½ weeks and finally thought that I would offer my opinion and comments, for whatever they may be worth! I believe that Jeff’s initial comments, concerns and motivations were truly genuine and ONLY motivated towards providing for the safety of our kids. Not unreasonable at all and I would commend him for being willing to raise the issue, instead of standing on the “side-line” with these concerns.
Jeff’s concerns are raised to the direct aspect of the safety and wellness protection for our children. I understand that sometimes, and even through Jeff’s comments, it will cause many to become very defensive and upset when questions such as these are raised. However, what has concerned me even more is the tone of the responses which have appeared and been echoed by the organizers of this event. This unfortunately has not provided the sport or even our communities with the view that this is currently a “first class” event.
Our club decided to share our concerns with our parents and have opted not to participate in the Wichita Classic this year. Simply, we felt that there was too much potential risk to our kids. With this being said, I would also like to commend Mr. Foster for his comments and initiative to work together in order to make improvements, so that this can truly be a “First Class” tournament in the future.
We wish everyone a safe time at the Classic and look forward to seeing you at the other upcoming tournaments.
Greg Rodman
Rose Hill Wrestling Club
Email: RHWrestling@cox.net
My son will not participate this year. It is not worth it. Besides the skin question, there are the poles too close to the wrestling surface. I'm sick of hearing, "How'd the kid do at the Classic," in seeding meetings at subs. People think it'.s the only tournament with tough competition. They're wrong.
Final comments before this weekend’s tournament – Over the last several weeks a lot has been shared on this forum, private messages, emails, and one on one conversations regarding the venue in question. I knew going into this there would be several different perspectives to consider and strong feelings on both sides. Although there are several areas still to be improved upon I wanted to share a thank you for everyone who has weighed in on this topic. I think it is great that we have this forum tool to share our thoughts, concerns and ideas (hopefully in a constructive manner). If nothing else, a dialog has begun on how this tourney can improve and possibly be something Kansas could be proud of.
For those attending this weekend, good luck.
is there confirmed skin case's from this tourney or what. stuff happens deal with it an move on..
Well, does anyone know? My sons have been participating in the classic for the better part of the last decade. Not once have they contracted any skin condition as a result. Nor to my knowledge has anyone else that we know. Personally, I feel that the "venue" has become part of the rich lore of USA wrestling in Kansas. A change of venue would take away from the hype surrounding the event and in my opinion would make it something less.
This is one of the best tournaments in regards to competition. If you are worried about the risks, DON'T GO. If you are not afraid of the competition then I don't see the problem. Too many people worry about things beyond their control. I have taken my boys there for 7+ years and they have never contacted any illnesses or had any injuries. If all you can do is find a negative out of this format than you, obviously, have little faith in our Kansas Wrestling Program. I implore you to find a better tournament for high competition than this. If the competitive level concerns you, why bother entering, anyway.
is there confirmed skin case's from this tourney or what. stuff happens deal with it an move on..
Well, does anyone know? My sons have been participating in the classic for the better part of the last decade. Not once have they contracted any skin condition as a result. Nor to my knowledge has anyone else that we know. Personally, I feel that the "venue" has become part of the rich lore of USA wrestling in Kansas. A change of venue would take away from the hype surrounding the event and in my opinion would make it something less.
We had 5 confirmed cases last year come back into our practice room. 2 caught it in time to get treated and 3 others didn't have it show up until Thursday before Subs and given the time frame of 72 hours as required on the skin release form, these 3 were unable to participate at Subs, District, State. What a shame to end such a long season of hard work for these kids and not be able to be afforded the opportunity to attempt to qualify for State due to a fungal infection.
I just wish that the event was a first class event as it should be and not have the reputation that it currently does. Maybe with all of the views and the discussion, instead of bashing other people's opinions and feelings, some positive change can come out of all of this for the betterment of the entire Kansas Wrestling Community.
Once again, if you don't feel safe or safety for your wrestler, DON'T ATTEND. How hard is this for you anti Classic people to understand. If you don't want to go - DON'T GO!! This tournament will continue to exist with or without you. Instead of finding fault with it, STAY HOME. They don't need you there anyway. It ruins the whole event for those of us that really want to wrestle the best kids out there.
Does not having a name make it any less true?
No it just makes your tough talk seem less true.
what are some of the tough match ups to watch at this tournament. im not familiar with alot of the older kids but would like to watch some of the older kids matches. I will be paying most of my attention to the younger ones but would like to watch some of the ideal match ups in the older crowds.
The fungus is at any tourn. Chicken pox was at Winfield Tourn. Why isn't anyone concerned with the STATES mandatory out-of bounds lines. What would you have done if the ref or coaches didn't catch your kids going out of bounds onto the hardwood and slams their head into the floor, so far I have been to very few tournys since the STATE has installed this rule that go by it. I would hate to be the ref that this happens to since they are the ones that are supposed to have control of the match. As coaches and Dads we go to the best tourny every Sat. to face the toughest comp. for our sons/daughters and to worry about a fungus that ends their season VS an injury that ends their career/life. It may be far fetched but it is always a possibility. and I'm sure that the Heatlh inspector doesn't come to everybody's tourny and watch to make sure that the 10 year old has washed their hands after using the toilet and then going to serve food at the conc. stand.
Let people go to the tourn and judge for themselves they will either love or hate it depending on were Johnny places.
GREAT COMPETTION thats why we show up from Nov.-April every SAT.
Five confirmed cases, how can you be sure that these five confirmed cases happened at the Classic. Is it possible that it happened in the practice room, in the High School practice room, middle school practice room, or even a previous tournament.
The incubation period for ring worm is 4-14 days. It makes it near to impossible to determine where it was contracted. If you had 5 confirmed cases concerning your wrestlers I would be more concerned about your practice room than the tournaments they are attending. A few facts from the Dept. of Health and Safety regarding ringworm.
Your risk of getting ringworm is higher if:
• You come in contact with a person who has a fungal infection or with a carrier—a person who has the fungi but does not have symptoms.
• You are susceptible to fungal infections or you have had a previous fungal infection.
• You have an impaired immune system due to a disease such as diabetes, AIDS, or cancer.
• You live in a warm, damp climate.
• You wear tight-fitting clothes or you let your skin stay damp for long periods, such as by staying in a wet bathing suit or sweaty workout clothes
You are a wrestler
Incubation Period For Ringworm
Tinea corporis: 4 - 10 days.
Tinea capitis: 10 - 14 days.
Ourkids are at risk to skin disease just because they are wrestlers. I am not convinced that you can prove that the kids from your club contracted a skin disease at the Classic. If other clubs also all of a sudden had an outbreak last year maybe I would be convinced, but so far that is not what is being reported.
I totally agree. Great facts by the way. You can catch ringworm anytime, anywhere. I believe that you cannot prove that the 5 cases came from the Classic. The incubation period is too long. I think you need to look at your practice room. I know we make our son and daughter bathe right after practice. And since my husband is a coach, he has to help with spraying and mopping the mats after practice. I have seen cases of ringworm at other tournaments, and yes, there was chicken pox at Winfield. See, it's everywhere. You just have to have good hygiene to keep from getting anything.
16 and Under 155 will be good. 14 and Under 125 will be good.
We are ALREADY proud of the Classic. There's no "possibly be something Kansas can be proud of" about it.
The boycotts did not seem to hurt the entries- Good luck to everyone this weekend at the CLASSIC.