My son wrestled 12u-100 all year long, one of the coaches over looked him when entering the the club for subs. I didnt find out until thursday night that he was not entered. I have called everybody just to be told that there was nothing that could be done. I dont think its right that a kid should have to pay such a high price for a mistake. But our coach was told that there were others that this happened too. So i was just wondering if this was true. I also think that some thing needs to be done about this, there has to be some leway when it comes kids and qualifing tournaments. Its just not right he has worked very hard and now its all over.
Yes, This has happened to other clubs. I am the director of a club and I over looked a wrestler. I just realized it when I was printing brackets on track wrestling. I contacted the sub-district director and our district director. I was told that nothing could be done. I could not even pay a different amount to get him in.
I find it hard to beleive that nothing could be done, when I saw at least two changes to wrestlers weight classes after the initial entries were posted.
I am not sure where this happened but in District 1 I sent out multiple emails to the Club Representatives responsible for entering wrestlers. This email listed every wrestler they had entered into the system. It was VERY easy to confirm if wrestlers had been entered or inadvertently left off. There was plenty of time to take care and make sure all of the wrestlers were entered.
effwhyeye
I also saw two changes to a bracket in the last two hours before the bracket posted . These were also weight class changes.
that is what i dont understand they said u could change weight class but could not add a wrestler dosent make sense to me even the tournament diretor said he didnt see the problem to add him. but the rules wouldnt alow it. i thought this was supposed to be about the kids?
There was a big push this year at the State level to standardize the qualifying series of tournaments. In the past these decisions were made at the District level. However, when done with the latitude and common since discussed in this thread the trade off is that each District is operating on its own standard. The thought was that because these tournaments are all part of the same qualifying series they needed to be run in a similar manner. Under the old method kids in District X may have been allowed to sign up late at the seeding meeting while kids in District Y had to have their entrees in 10 days prior to the event. This year the State has mandated that all districts operate under the 10-day rule. All entrees had to be in 10 days prior to the event; this year that was Wednesday-March 5 at midnight. This date and time was distributed through all of the clubs from your State and District administration. Under this plan changes to a wrestler’s age and/or weight could be made up until the seeding meeting started. That is why you saw the movement in weight classes. That is not a new phenomenon. These types of changes have been allowed in the past, but with trackwrestling they were just more transparent this year. I hope this helps to clarify.
Mark,
These type of situations are exactly why I opposed the rule change at the state meeting. I believe there are such things as what I term "correctable errors". These are errors which by being allowed to be corrected cause nobody harm or provide an unfair advantage. They would include but not be limited to, weight changes, age changes, and omissions. An example would be, the qualifier sign-up forms which the parent signs. A few years ago we were told that changes and whited-out forms would no longer be accepted for liability reasons. The first year this was enacted our club like many others showed up at seeding without newly signed blank forms and expected to make any needed corrections to the ones already submitted. This was not accepted and for that reason several of our wrestlers did not get to compete in the sub-district tournament. Since that time our club has at times asked the parents to sign a blank qualifier form so we would have one on hand in case needed at the seeding meeting. Then yesterday we are told with a wink and a nod, that all of this was simply to clean up a problem of illegible forms that had been corrected or changed too many times in the past. All the while, we learn, that some club's forms, with obvious changes, had continued to be accepted! I was dumbfounded to say the least.
All of us as parents or club officers have made the same mistakes as those listed above, among others. I, like everyone, has had to tell a parent I didn't get their kid entered in a tournament. A mistake at an invitational is bad enough but one at a qualifier is the worst. I say, as I said at the meeting, there has to be a way for these "correctable errors" to be corrected prior to seeding.
I agree with SF02. I understand that you can't have 2000 people showing up at the seeding meetings with entry forms, but there should be some way to correct this type of situation. Maybe 50.00 late entry penalty with the absolute deadline being the seeding meeting? I would think that would be enough deterrent that people wouldn't abuse it on purpose, but doable in actual real life emergencies.
We should make every effort to do right by 12 year old kids that want to wrestle and have done nothing wrong.
Mr. Stanley,
You mention being able to change age groups prior to the seeding meeting beginning, I know in one district they were not allowed to change the age group on Sunday. Happens that the two kids left out would have had to wrestle up 1 age bracket to have a weight bracket that would fit them. Now both of those kids are not allowed to wrestle at subs at all, even after their coach had turned everything in.
wrstlmom1970
By
RULE you are not allowed to wrestle out of your age group for the qualifying tournaments (rule 4 of Rules Modifications for Qualifying Tournaments). I am not sure when this went in to effect, but as far as I know it has been a rule for at least 10 years now. We had one age group change in D1N and it was due to an administrative error on the clubs part. A wrestler was inadvertently entered into the wrong class.
Mark
Thanks for the explanation. Didn't know exactly how that worked. I was just wondering. I feel a little sorry for the two kids that won't get to participate, but if those are the rules, those are the rules. The two kids were extremely large for their age, so there is no weight bracket for them in the 8 and under group.
Im just glad that im not the only one that thinks its wrong to punish a kid for a mistake that he had no control over. Hopfully there will be somthing done about this for next year, i dont want anybody else to have to go through this it sucks.
So does that mean that 6 and under kids are not supposed to be wrestling up in the 8 and under brackets for state?
if its all about the kids then the kids should not be punished because a coach forgot to get them entered. we are all human and we will make mistakes. its up to us to make it right and give back to the kids and let them wrestle. its not the kids fault the coaches didnt catch it.
Any error that is caught prior to seeding! After that the wrestler may end up paying the price for the adults mistakes. The host club or district should be allowed to collect a hefty penalty for any errors that are correctable though.
Let me start by saying I agree, it should be about the kids and we try and do our best to not make mistakes and get everyone included.
We were allowed to make changes up until the seeding meeting started. Thank God District 1 did a good job of giving us the paperwork to review when we got there. I found a couple of "adult" errors (read me fat fingering the wrong thing) and we were able to get them fixed no problem.
In my opinion, here's the real issue.....the reason the state has to put in rules like this is because the adults sometimes try and "game" the system. People try to see who is in which weight class and then move kids out of weight classes that may be loaded or have a couple of very good kids in them. Not saying this is right or wrong, but is sure makes it hard to identify when a legitimate mistake is made vice someone trying to "game" the system.
If we can figure out how to distinguish between the two then I think everyone would try and do their best to ensure that kids aren't left out due to legitimate adult mistakes. As it stands now, I think the system we use in District 1 is pretty good. It's just that the adults/coaches doing the entries have to be very diligent to find any mistakes and make sure we get them fixed prior to the seeding meeting.
I would like to thank Will Cokeley, Mark Stanley, and whoever else helped with the District 1 entries this year. I think you guys gave us a good system and a fair chance to catch mistakes and rectify them. The Spartans appreciate all the time and effort you guys put into this.
Shawn Budke
SF02,
While I tend to partially agree with you on this issue, I do think it is important to point out the intent behind the rules. When these rules were put into place it was not the intent to harm any individual wrestler. The true intent was to protect the integrity and consistency of our brackets. There are some errors/omissions/changes that are so cut and dried that I do believe exceptions to the rules make since. However, an issue that seems like a no brainer to me may cause issues for another.
I will give you an example of an issue that I am dealing with this year. I have a kid entered at 14-75. Friday night I was doing my homework and looked at the groups of kids across the State. As of Friday night I believe there were three other kids at this age and weight. My 14-75 kid approached me last night at practice and says can I move up. I told him it was too late for that. He breaks down and says but coach I want to wrestle. I said, I don’t understand. He explains that he and his Dad were looking at the brackets published after the seeding meeting and it turns out that he is the only 14-75 left in the State. This kid has competed all year, often times against other kids as much as 25# heavier in combined brackets. I have told him many times after tough losses this year, that if he bides his time he won’t have to wrestler the 95-100# kids in the qualifying tourneys. At 14-80 there was only one kid in our sub-district and he was also from my club. I told both boys that I would request an exception to the rule, which I have done. The ruling was quick; I was denied and a full explanation was given. Moving kids after the seeding meeting is a slippery slope. As soon as you allow an exception then there will be a dozen more requesting a move for other reasons. Am I disappointed by the ruling…yes. Do I understand the ruling…yes.
I believe that many issues should be left up to each District to decide at a local level. There could be an appeal process at the State level to rule on the fairness of decisions made at the District level. But we must all follow the rules in place to the best of our ability.
Mark
This is one discussion that I really wish did not have to happen. The idea that a young boy or girl should spend all year training and competing with a eye towards taking a shot at qualifying for the state tournament, only to have that dream shot down because of errors by the adults that should be looking out for him/her, disappoints me greatly. Unfortunately, all too often I end up being one of the people who are responsible for enforcing the rules saying “no” in these cases, when every fiber of my being wants to say “yes.”
If your son or daughter is not going to be wrestling this weekend because of one of these rules, I know that there is nothing that I can say which would mitigate any of the hurt that your family is currently feeling. However, for those of you who are wondering why a bunch of adults can’t see past a few rules to do the right thing for a young athlete, I would like to try and explain why these rules exist and why they are enforced so stringently.
Perhaps the best place to start is to confess my own sin and the resulting damage. Approximately 15 years ago, when I was the District II director, I received a request the day before the subdistrict tournament that seemed to be an easy call. A wrestler had been entered into a wrong weight class, due to an error by his club director, and wanted to be moved into the correct weight class. There was an outside shot that he could make weight in the bracket he was entered, but he had hit a growth spurt and making the lower weight, if even possible, was going to be extremely difficult. The weight class he wanted to be moved into only had one or two other wrestlers, so it wasn’t going to affect anyone’s ability to advance to the next week’s district tournament. I talked to the club director of one of the other kids in the bracket he wanted to move to and this director had no objection. Therefore, I allowed him to move to the other bracket. It seemed the perfect scenario, with no one being harmed and this young man being allowed to compete.
The next week I was faced with an appeal by a club from the other subdistrict. When they arrived at the district tournament, they found one of their wrestlers was facing this young man who changed weight classes the prior week. Somehow they knew that his weight had been changed, and they challenged my authority to make this change. Clearly they were concerned that this young man was going to affect their chances to qualify for state and they wanted him out of the bracket. Any hurt that I might have felt in denying him the chance to move to his correct weight class the prior week paled in comparison to the sorrow that I felt when I realized that I had no defense for my actions. Because the rules did not allow this change, the only recourse was to scratch this wrestler from the district tournament, ending his season because I decided I knew better than the rules did.
This incident has had a lasting impact on me. My initial reaction was to question whether the rules that we had were necessary and, more importantly, were they fair? The problem that I quickly realized as I considered how these rules should be revised or deleted was that very little happens in a vacuum. Take for instance the impact of a wrestler who is entered in the wrong age group. Our rules state that a wrestler may not wrestle outside of his/her own age group, so if this error is not corrected before the start of the seeding meeting s/he will not be able to wrestle in the subdistrict tournament. It would seem to be easy to just make the right decision and move this wrestler to the correct age group, but where should the wrestler be put on the bracket? The reason for seeding wrestlers is to try and ensure that the top four wrestlers have a fair chance to place at the subdistrict tournament by not making them wrestle each other out of medal contention. Of course they still have to win the matches that the seeds anticipate they will win, and a nonseeded wrestler has every opportunity to defeat a seeded wrestler and earn that qualifying spot, but the goal is still the same. If my wrestler is (on paper) the third best wrestler in this original bracket, and if the new wrestler is the best wrestler in the bracket, it is very possible that drawing the new wrestler in the bracket may force my wrestler to have to defeat two higher seeds just to make it to district while the #4 seed gets to avoid these competitors. Since my wrestler was seeded higher than the #4 seed, why should he be penalized because this other wrestler did not enter the correct age group and subsequently was moved into my wrestler’s bracket?
An option would be to reseed the bracket, but this is also problematic. There is a reason that this is the only Kansas youth tournament where all of the participating clubs come together to argue over seeds. Because of the time and distances involved, and the discussions that are necessary to try and do the job right, this is not a minor task. It would be difficult enough just to get all of the clubs back together that are currently represented in the two modified brackets to do a complete reseeding, but this ignores the “what if” potential. For example, what if I had known that a certain wrestler was not going to be in a certain bracket? Potentially, I might have moved my wrestler into that weight class – why should I be denied this opportunity after the fact if the state is allowing changes? I can come up with several other “what if” scenarios, but you get the idea.
The bottom line is that there are very few actions that we can take that do not impact someone else in a disadvantageous fashion. Since these other individuals followed all of the rules, it seems unfair to put them in the position of trying to obtain their own remedies to any harm resulting from changes.
One rule that I do believe should be reviewed is the ten day rule for accepting subdistrict entries. Initially this was felt to be necessary to provide the subdistrict host a fair opportunity to prepare themselves for the seeding meeting. With the adoption of TrackWrestling and the simplification of putting together the participation reports due to the online entries by member clubs, I think it might be possible to reduce this time period. However, I believe there will still need to be a deadline and there will still be those individuals who are harmed when they miss these deadlines. And I will continue to agonize over those youth who must pay the price.
As a dumb outsider looking in, it would seem to me that if the list of participants had been made available through track wrestling, parents could have checked for themselves that the kids were registered prior to the cutoff. Is there a reason not to?
Club statisticians were able to "view" and "print" all competitors from "their club" to confirm that all entries were correct.
We also received numerous emails with all entries, as well as the age and weights that were entered.
But why not let everyone access this? Not weights and everything, just participants. I know club statisticians were able to view, and yet someone fell through the cracks. Again, I don't know all the ins and outs and people are doing a great job with a lot of information and a short time.
As a dumb outsider looking in, it would seem to me that if the list of participants had been made available through track wrestling, parents could have checked for themselves that the kids were registered prior to the cutoff. Is there a reason not to?
They would be moving wrestlers left and right. Years ago we used to have the entries available for all coaches to see prior to the seeding meeting. We had to discontinue this because it was often a foot race to see who could move a wrestler/wrestlers from one weight to another. Coach 'A' would go up and change his wrestler to another weight class and coach 'B' seeing this would follow behind doing the same. Some kids changed weight classes multiple times in the same day. Then we closed the entry lists and this practice ceased.
I said no weights, just names.
They can change weights at the seeding meeting anyway so what's the difference?
They can change them but not because they know of who else is in the bracket or another bracket is less full.
They do in district 3. They know everybody from the east and west. I would submit that 95 percent of the weight changes on seeding day are a result of seeing the names and weights.
i still think we need to be able to add kids if there is a legitamate error that is not the kids fault.
They do in district 3. They know everybody from the east and west. I would submit that 95 percent of the weight changes on seeding day are a result of seeing the names and weights.
There you have your answer right there. I can't explain why other districts do some of the stuff they do.
You are talking about before or after the seeding has begun?
What do you mean I have my answer? My question is that if everyone can move around anyway, why is the information withheld until the seeding meeting? Make it available and only allow weight changes at the seeding meeting. I just don't see the harm in telling everyone the participants without the weights. Otherwise make it a correctable error.
The way it currently is, coaches are making weight changes at the seeding meeting without consulting parents.
Sorry, I had already started a reply before I saw your second post.
District 3 starts the meeting by giving every team represented a list of the participants, by weight, from both sides. They then start at the smallest 8 and unders and go through all the weight changes. Then the east and west go into separate rooms and start seeding wrestlers after all the weight changes have been announced for both sub districts.
Next year the deadline can be midnight the Friday night before the seeding meetings. Basically a little more than 6 days before the Sub district weigh-ins begin. All entries will be viewable but only the club rep can make changes. ALL changes will be done by midnight so there will be NO opportunity to change anything past the deadline. NO paperwork will be required and payment will be mandated at entry time. By midnight on Friday everyone will be entered, fixed, and paid for. The seeding meeting will not permit any changes of any type. The bottom line is that the club directors or rep who is entering the data MUST verify their entries or risk having to disappoint one of their wrestlers. Yes, we are human and we do make mistakes so get some help, verify the entrants and make sure you don't have any disappointed wrestlers. DO NOT procrastinate! Give yourselves plenty of time to verify the information you have entered. Lets face it, the system, as it stands, works pretty darn good. Out of 3,674 kids entered we have very, very few issues. It would be pretty darn hard for me to point a finger when so many got it right.
Will,
Are you saying this is already planned for next year?
I'm not pointing any fingers either. They have done a remarkable job with an enormous amount of information for as long as I have been around. It would just seem that there is no real reason not to be transparant with the entries and it might eliminate a few of these situations. If I am the offending club officer, I would prefer all my parents had checked for themselves.
well darn it some one point a finger. lol just thought i would try and be funny, been a bad day needed to make a joke.
If it were up to me it would be the plan for next year! We have to move this through the proper decision making channels. Start with your club director, then your sub director, district director, and any state board member that you know.
We received an email from the subdistrict tourney directors verifying the entries we had put on the computer, prior to the deadline. So the info IS available prior to the deadline. If you club waits until the last day to enter kids, then it will be tougher to catch an omission or mistake.
I understand that. The club should turn stuff in on time, the club should verify all the names and cross reference them to the names they submitted and everything should be perfect.
How does that help an average parent? First Stryk has no control over when the club sends their entries in, nor do I control our club. First Stryk doesn't have access to the e-mail list. Neither do I see the e-mail. My thought in using track wrestling was to give the parents some control over the process.
This could just as easily have been any one of our wrestler's, and I guess I'm just not as comfortable as some are with First Stryk's bad luck.
windjammer it makes me feel good that somebody else thinks the way i do. thanks for the concern.
I don't think you will ever see the parents have access to the pre-seeding data. It would be a zoo! You can see how much of testing the waters goes on on this board, with the "who's tough at this age and weight?" threads. You will always have to rely on the competence of your club directors to some degree. If your directors make too many errors then replace them.
The information is there and should be shared freely. If people want to jockey and play Ebay bid stealer by moving their kid at 11:55pm then so be it. We will never eliminate those trying to dodge competition but at the end of the day those who dodge competition merely to qualify or place at kids state will not be around to place in HS state.
There is a kid in District 1 who wrestles 14U 75. He thought that he would finally get to wrestle some kids his size after grinding out the season being combined up to 85. He entered without being able to see any other entries. Guess what, he is a state champ! Is he happy, HECK NO! He wanted to move up to 80lbs so he could wrestle! Hats off to this young man! He knows it is really about mat time and competition no podiums and plaques. The RULES won't permit him to move up but if the information would have been available you can bet he would have. It is ridiculous to hide information. This isn't poker! I guarantee you the overwhelming majority of parents would vote to allow viewing of the data.
I can only speak for District 1...I thought the process worked very well for the first time using Track wrestling. The issues we had were what I consider minor and the lessons learned were at the club level. Now that we understand the system there are a couple of tweaks we will make to our club process but all in all I thought it went a lot better this year as compared to past years. Heck in past years the poor kids and parents were relying on knuckle heads like me to actually do math to try and figure out record percentage and what that equated to and then adding additional points based on how they placed, etc.
Feel bad about kids that got left out or in wrong weight classes. But overall I have to say that in District 1, I think our District leadership did a great job! Thanks again to Will Cokeley, Mark Stanley and any others that organized all of this for our district!
Shawn Budke
I would guess any problems with trackwrestling will rear their head the day of the tournament if they are going to.
They wont have any problems they have run the system before.
I'm only worried about my own district. District 1 can create problems where there are none anyway.
lgtm ... I'll take that back!!
LOL!
The ruling was quick; I was denied and a full explanation was given. Moving kids after the seeding meeting is a slippery slope. As soon as you allow an exception then there will be a dozen more requesting a move for other reasons.
I am dumbfounded to hear of the situation for your 75 pounder.
Can the 75 lb weight class be grouped with the 80 lb class for the state tournament and qualifying events?
Also, looking at past results the 14U 75 lb weight class should probably not exist. It looks like the 14U 70lb weight class was eliminated sometime in the past.
I have no familiarity with the precedent and rules in this situation, but hope he is still able to wrestle.
Can the 75 lb weight class be grouped with the 80 lb class for the state tournament and qualifying events?
No!
Also, looking at past results the 14U 75 lb weight class should probably not exist. It looks like the 14U 70lb weight class was eliminated sometime in the past.
You've got that right! I'm kind of surprised that Nedly's crew missed this weight during the study of weight classes that needed to be eliminated.
I have no familiarity with the precedent and rules in this situation, but hope he is still able to wrestle.
He won't be able to with no competitors statewide.