Kansas Wrestling
Posted By: JJD Oklahoma Kids allowed to wrestle subs. - 03/15/09 02:24 AM
Guymon OK is wrestling for the Hugoton Club. How many kids did it effect? Nothing against the kids. But this is a kansas tourney. Did we just open the door for other states? Today in our bracket we would have had second and lost a kansas kid who lives and wrestle here. Just doesnt seem right. any thoughts.
Posted By: kai Re: Oklahoma Kids allowed to wrestle subs. - 03/15/09 02:26 AM
check out the conversation at (any studs at 12U 64) on the talk form.
yes guymon is wrestling with the hugoton club! and they went thru the executive board/council to do it!! they only go to kansas tourneys since they live closer to them than oklahoma tourneys!! they dont belong in any other state or do they attend any other state!! i have but one question?? these kids went thru the properchannels and done things right by the rules put before them!! i do agree if there is some kind of hinky stuff going on!! but they went thru the proper channels to be able to do it the right way and were upfront and honest about it!! and also the petition was supported by quite a few members and coaches for it to happen!!
Posted By: Cokeley Re: Oklahoma Kids allowed to wrestle subs. - 03/15/09 03:16 AM
I heard about this after it passed by one vote. I am all for kids wrestling but this seems like an awfully slippery slope. Oklahoma has plenty of wrestling opportunity as does the Texas Panhandle. Aren't we opening Pandora's Box here? Next it will be rural Colorado towns because it would be closer to wrestle in Kansas than drive to Denver. After that southwestern Nebraska kids so they don't have to drive to Lincoln or Omaha. Steve Woody argued for this which I was totally surprised by since he is normally very, very anti change. I think this situation needs to be rethought and revoted on.
shouldn't be allowed. they live oklamoma. just travel. Does St. francis go to Colorado or Nebraska for state. What about all of those border towns in kansas do they jump ship or wrestle in kansas. They shouldn't be allowed to come over to wrestle.
so since they done it the right way and done what the rules said they should be disallowed now?? they live in the panhandle of ok!! they would drive 5 hours to the closest tourney in ok!! or 2 1/2 hours for texas!! or drive 30 miles for kansas tourneys!! my question is do you want them to wrestle since the cost alone would stop some from wrestling since hauling would be prohibitive alone!!! my theory is is this for the kids or what??? if they choose to come here and support ks tourneys and they follow our rules, so be it!!!! i would understand if they went to ok or tx tourneys they do not!! they choose to come here and support ks tourneys!! i think this is for the kids not the parents!! and to promote and give the oppurtunity to children to better themselves thru wrestling !! not only in wrestling but in life in general!!
Posted By: Cokeley Re: Oklahoma Kids allowed to wrestle subs. - 03/15/09 03:52 AM
You don't do anything about it this year as it is what is. The problem is that if blurs a very black and white line. It is about Kansas Kids not Oklahoma Kids. No one is for providing opportunities to wrestle than me but I strongly feel this is a precedent that we really didn't want to set.

SWKSKIDSMATRATS...

Where do you draw the line? Liberal kids have to drive six hours to state. Woodward has wrestling and that isn't 2.5 hours from Guymon and neither is Amarillo.
Posted By: JW1635 Re: Oklahoma Kids allowed to wrestle subs. - 03/15/09 04:03 AM
I would like this reviewed at the State meeting. I believe that as long as a wrestler is not double-dipping in two State Tournaments and he is signed up with only one club, being in the State of Kansas then we should accept his entry. I would also add that if we find a pattren of jumping back and forth from say, Missouri to Kansas, back to Missouri then wanting to come back to Kansas we take a much deeper look into their reason. I want all kids to have the oppurtunity to wrestle and some of them are in seperated family situations that lead to this kind of circumstance.
All in all we should only hope that our Kansas Wrestlers have seen the best competion we can bring them, I would be glad to have the reputation of being a tough State to win the State Title in.
i am talking about normal everyday tourneys!! woodward coaches told me at liberals tourney they drive ast least 3 hours one way every weekend to go to wrestling tourneys!! you add on 2 hrs and 15 minutes to guymon from woodward you are close!! woodward does not have a tourney they have a program!! amarillo is 2 hours from guymon!! and liberal is 40 miles, hugoton is 30 miles so which is closer for them to go to????? to me the only thing is that they SUPPORT ks tourneys and only ks tourneys and that should say volumes what there intentions are and they mean well in the respect that they are doing it for the right reasons!! and how is it hurting ks kids??? so should all ks tourneys be off limits for anyone but ks kids????????
Posted By: Cokeley Re: Oklahoma Kids allowed to wrestle subs. - 03/15/09 04:38 AM
SWK

The vote allows them to compete in the Kids State qualifying series. There are NO rules restricting them from competing in "normal everyday tourneys." It is a little unusual to be a Oklahoma resident but proclaim yourself the Kansas State Champion. I understand the geography so don't you see that this could apply to EVERY bordering state... Where do you draw the line?
Posted By: HEADUP Re: Oklahoma Kids allowed to wrestle subs. - 03/15/09 05:44 AM
check out the posts about the monett mo clubs. we would love to have their points added at state. but there is one problem, they are from mo. we practice all the time with seneca, diamond, monett, carl junction, carthage kids. that doesn't give them the right to wrestle here. sorry about how far they have to drive, but no one ever said life was fair. and the people who think that wrestling is fair, usually play basketball after 1 season. before you reply with any other situations, ask yourself 1 question. would oklahoma do the same for a kansas town?
Posted By: Hossus Re: Oklahoma Kids allowed to wrestle subs. - 03/15/09 07:28 AM
Worked in and around Hooker, OK the last few years. So I understand the Geography issue as well and it is also a part of the reason we did not move to that area. Good to see that there are some teams trying to get a movement going though. Not too many high schools carry a wrestling program in the Panhandle, I know I looked long and hard at this.

However, if driving is the main issue that this is based on, then it is a very weak one. The Folks in Colby, Goodland, Oakley, Liberal, Garden City, Dodge City, Hays, Norton etc. do a fair share of that as well. KS is a good sized state so driving is an issue for everyone here as well. Three weeks of driving, time and money for the state series in OK is really a drop in the bucket for some of the parents of wrestlers in KS for our state tourney series. All things equal in this case in my opinion. You can still get your mat time by attending the local KS tournaments with a much shorter season I might add.

This is sorta after the fact. Here we are after subs and many in the KS wrestling community had no idea that this was going to happen and or that it had been approved. This should have been made common knowledge well in advance. So right now it appears to many people to be shady even though it may not be.

As it was mentioned above the allowances will eventually lead to more special circumstances with other states clubs or state governing entities. Maybe that is not such a bad thing with the economy the way it is. Survival of the sport is also a driving factor here as well. I have read and heard that many of the KS High School Wrestling programs are now under the chopping block due to the economy and budget issues with the state. Several smaller High Schools Districts are looking at closing and being consolidated in with bigger districts. So it could be that we will have to evolve to survive. If high school programs start to die then so will the kids clubs unless we make some changes.

Here is the rub though. The OK State Series rules for instance, specifically states that you have to be a resident of OK to participate. I am sure other states have similar rules. The reason for this is the double dipping and recruitment. What better way to boost your clubs power rating at state than to recruit from another state who's State Tourney Series has been over for almost a month. Believe me there are a bunch of Oklahoma wrestlers who would love to get in another month of wrestling here in KS.

Regardless of where your loyalties may lie, if there are no compacts or agreements made with the other states to allow for mutual crossing over of their state tourney series. Then it really is an unfair advantage for some clubs to be able to recruit in this manner.

While I am not really upset that this occuring as this is prob the direction for this sport in general. I do however, think it is totally unfair that it does not apply to everyone. I for one would rather have my son to be able to wrestle the OK series than in the KS series because it is closer for us and the rules are different. But we do not have that option unless we move 20 miles south.
Posted By: birddog Re: Oklahoma Kids allowed to wrestle subs. - 03/15/09 11:50 AM
That should NOT be allowed. They can wrestle were ever they want all year long, but when it come to state they need to wrestle in their own respective state. In their case that only requires two semi-long drives -one to oklahoma regionals and one to state. Come on you Guys - Lots of us have drive to wrestle. I wonder if the Okie folkie would let us come wrestle in their State Tournie? - As for the Oklahoma Series Tournaments
The Okies don't have a problem with any out of staters wrestling in them, we know this for fact as we have kids in our club that have won the series this year and in past years. But State is State - send them home with well wishes to win their respective state title along with the Kansas coach that coached them all year if you really want to help them.
Why don't you get on the Okie site and see how they feel about it. Bet the Okies might feel slighted "out" of some competition especially if one of those kids did well in the Kansas State meet.
Posted By: HEADUP Re: Oklahoma Kids allowed to wrestle subs. - 03/15/09 01:06 PM
right on birddog, i believe that oklahoma state is already over. so i wouldn't be a conflict for the coaches. sorry, i am all for anything that betters the sport. it just seems like this was rushed, and maybe should have been looked at more closely. you know that they wouldn't allow it in oklahoma, no matter what the circumstances.
My son has wrestled one of these kids from Guymon all year. He (like the other kids from Guymon, I'm sure), is a good kid and a pretty good wrestler. However, I think if my son had been one of the kids that lost out to one of the kids from Guymon at subs (and didn't get to go on to Districts), I'd probably not be too happy about it.

For this year, the horse is already out of the barn. But I think something needs to be established for years going forward.
Posted By: Mike Juby Re: Oklahoma Kids allowed to wrestle subs. - 03/15/09 01:43 PM
Here is the rule that permitted the Oklahoma kids to compete in our state qualifying series:
Quote:
For the purpose of eligibility of entering a Sub-District or District tournament, a competitive member must be a resident of Kansas and/or be enrolled in a Kansas educational school system. Special cases to this rule are subject to notification and permission from the Executive Council. The State Tournament Director will be notified of any person permitted to wrestle under this provision.

If you want this rule changed, you should notify one of your district officers so that they can bring it up at next September's Executive Council meeting.

In the 20 years that I've been active on the Executive Council, either as a voting member or in my current Ex-Officio position, I have seen this provision requested several times, and approved probably 10-12 times. The only times I can recall where approval has been granted is when the wrestler(s) are actively associated with a Kansas club during the regular season, don't have easy access to out-of-state competition, and forgo any competition in their home state's championship series.
Posted By: Spexy Re: Oklahoma Kids allowed to wrestle subs. - 03/15/09 01:50 PM
This is BULL!!! I realize they went through all the proper channels, but everyone in Kansas travels as well. Why is the distance you have to travel the issue? This is a KANSAS state event, not a MULTIPLE STATE EVENT, whomever voted or let them in should of thought long and hard of the repercussions that it would cause. Kansas kids not making state due to the fact an Oklahoma kid beat them out not right!!! My feelings, they had their chance, now it should be our turn!!!
I understand what is being said by those against this allowance. But, this does appear to be a special circumstance. It was voted on and approved. And, isn't the whole purpose to improve wrestling?? I guess I would be mad if one of these kids beat my kid out of state on one hand. But on the other hand, where they only wrestle in Kansas tournaments, wrestle for a Kansas club, I would guess my kid should know these wrestlers and have learned how to beat them by state. I really believe these kids are as much Kansas kids in some ways as those who wrestle for Missouri clubs and on their Park Hill Dual teams competing against KANSAS, and then come back and wrestle on our end of the year dual teams. It was a special circumstance. I really understand both sides, on a Sunday morning before church, I am just trying to point out some issues on the other side. It really does not matter to me. As Randy says its all about he kids!!! This rule helps some kids and if your kid is not good enough to beat them, isn't that what wrestling is all about.
Posted By: mmeditz Re: Oklahoma Kids allowed to wrestle subs. - 03/15/09 02:11 PM
Just curious, is Weston Maravilla 8u 55# from Hugoton a true Hugoton kid or an OK kid?
Posted By: JJD Re: Oklahoma Kids allowed to wrestle subs. - 03/15/09 02:13 PM
Let them wrestle all regular tournaments if they want but when it comes to Kansas state go to your own. I have traveled numerous time a year to the Wichita area (at least 6 tournaments) which is a 220 mile drive each way. Salina 4hrs each way. This is my own state never had a problem with it. OK kids state was in Tulsa a 7hr drive from Guymon and Topeka is a 7hr Drive for Kansas State. Guymon Drove 2hrs to Dodge city and it is a 2hr drive to Garden City as well. They wrestled as Guymon Ok all year long until subs and did not practice with Hugoton they justed signed in under the Club. Get all the mat time you want in Kansas but at the state level attend your own. I think State board jump the gun on this one.
Posted By: mmeditz Re: Oklahoma Kids allowed to wrestle subs. - 03/15/09 02:19 PM
I see Weston has been pretty successful with Hugoton since back in 2006. I answered my own question, thanks anyway.
Posted By: BLT Re: Oklahoma Kids allowed to wrestle subs. - 03/15/09 02:20 PM
I have a question. How do we treat the KC folks that live on the Mo side? Are they allowed to wrestle Ks if they are in a Ks club? Is KC some kind of exception to the rule as well or do we make those kids drive the other direction. Do the KC Mo kids get to wrestle Mo state?

Point:
I know of a young man that lives in Hunnywell Ks. That is south of Wellington & 1 mile north of the OK line. His dad works in Blackwell OK and they go to school in Braman OK. (Why not South Haven? Too long to type!) But they want to wrestle out of Blackwell and was told they could until state bc they have a Ks address and it is a very strict policy that only OK wrestlers can wrestle their state series.

Before I pass judgement on this I would have to see how they handle the KC area kids. If they don't allow them to wrestle then I claim foul!
If they allow then its the same gray line!
ok!!!
they do practice with hugotons club!!!! go to the practie and see for your self that those kids go and practice with hugoton!!!
they dont go to any oklahoma tourneys!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
they didnt go to salina,hutch, or any other tourneys back east al year long!!
they are trying to get a program started down there and all they want is a chance to wrestle and get kids into this sport!!!! and they help hugoton with practice and tourneys!!!
and this whole thread was started by someone that has a axe to grind because why????????????????????
couple questions???
A-is wrestling for kids?????
B-is there a diff between ok kids and ks kids???
C-would they have said a word if those kids went 0-2 and wwent home like nothing????
D-if you have questions ask them and they will be answered honestly and upfront!!! i dont pull no punches!!!!!
E-weston maravilla is a 2nd grader at hugotn elementary
Posted By: JWeil Re: Oklahoma Kids allowed to wrestle subs. - 03/15/09 03:35 PM
I think with extrem cases like this one, we evaluate every wrestler case by case that askes to wrestle our state tourny's. As for every day tourny's wouldn't you go to another state if it was close. I know we would.
Posted By: JJD Re: Oklahoma Kids allowed to wrestle subs. - 03/15/09 04:38 PM
A- Wrestling is for the kids.
B - You answered that one yourself.
C - I doesnt not matter 0-2 0r 2-0 the point is this a Kansas qualifer not KS/OK.

Talked to numerous coaches from Hugoton and was told this was dropped in their lap and not all were on board.

We have traveled to numerous states and wrestled National events and wrestled alot of regular tournaments also. To see different competion and to get mat time for the Kids. At the end of the season you come home and see if all your hard work, time and effort put in can be rewarded by your own state. There is nothing like seing your kids at state tourney come in the Parade and Being introduced in the finals. Just dont know how you think it right to stand on the Podium with a Kansas Plaque being from OK. Last thoughts and Im Done. ****
a- we agree on!
B-kids are just that kids!! no matter what state you are from!!
c- is it not called usaw wrestling??? its for the kids not the parents!! to better our children thru wrestling!! kids are just kids!!!!
D-so who have you talked to from hugoton about this?? its amazing how this is third hand HEARSAY!!!!!!! what i have heard is that the kids are whats important!!! that is what i am in it for whether your kid or mine it doesnt matter as long as they benefit from the experience!! win or lose!!!! its about doing your best and nothing else!!! winning and losing is just part of it!! the try factor is whats important, self-dicipline, among others, but the most important one is also SPORTSMANSHIP!!!!!!!!!!!
Posted By: Cokeley Re: Oklahoma Kids allowed to wrestle subs. - 03/15/09 05:24 PM
Let me pose this question to those who are trying to figure this out:

If Guymon, OK started a HS wrestling program would KSHSAA let them attend the Liberal Regional and qualify for Kansas 5A state because it would be closer than driving to Ponca City, OK for OK Regionals?

The entire season kids from anywhere can wrestle in Kansas tournaments and they do. For three weeks it is about Kids who are RESIDENTS of Kansas with a few exceptions. Kids who are residents of Missouri but attend school in Kansas. That is the usual case for making an exception.

I would love to see Ned Price chime in on this since he didn't get to vote.
Posted By: blaise Re: Oklahoma Kids allowed to wrestle subs. - 03/15/09 07:39 PM
I agree with you Will..
Originally Posted By: swkskidsmatrats
c- is it not called usaw wrestling???
Our organization is:

The name of the organization shall be United States of America Wrestling Association – Kansas, Inc. Kids Division. In addition, the organization may conduct its affairs under such trade name(s) as may be approved by its Executive Council, including but not limited to the name USAWA-Kansas Kids.
Posted By: S Biddle Re: Oklahoma Kids allowed to wrestle subs. - 03/15/09 08:16 PM
Will - How do you know he didn't get to vote, maybe he did vote.
Posted By: Cokeley Re: Oklahoma Kids allowed to wrestle subs. - 03/15/09 08:50 PM
Ned is only allowed to vote if it is a tie. It was not so he did not vote. Tuff did note vote either as he was in Mexico on a much deserved family vacation. Tom Peterman abstained. THe YES voters and NO voters will have to disclose themselves.
Posted By: Pelland Re: Oklahoma Kids allowed to wrestle subs. - 03/15/09 09:20 PM
WOW.....I can't believe this was even a request to our council much less approved.

Greg Pelland
Kansas Resident
Posted By: Pelland Re: Oklahoma Kids allowed to wrestle subs. - 03/15/09 09:48 PM
I've been thinking about this..........I have a few questions for the Hugoton Wrestling Club.

1) How many OK kids wrestle for your club?
2) How long have they been wrestling for your club?
3) Do you enter them into the tournaments your club goes to?

Thanks,
Greg Pelland
Originally Posted By: Cokeley
Ned is only allowed to vote if it is a tie.
It is not true that the president (executive director) can vote only to break a tie. If the president (executive director) is a member of the assembly (executive council), he or she has exactly the same rights and privileges as all other members have, including the right to make motions, speak in debate and to vote on all questions. However, the impartiality required of the presiding officer of an assembly (executive council) (especially a large one) precludes exercising the right to make motions or debate while presiding, and also requires refraining from voting except (i) when the vote is by ballot, or (ii)whenever his or her vote will affect the result.

When will the chair's vote affect the result? On a vote which is not by ballot, if a majority vote is required and there is a tie, he or she may vote in the affirmative to cause the motion to prevail. If there is one more in the affirmative than in the negative, he or she can create a tie by voting in the negative to cause the motion to fail. Similarly, if a two-thirds vote is required, he or she may vote either to cause, or to block, attainment of the necessary two thirds. [RONR (10th ed.), p. 392-93; see also Table A, p.190 of RONR In Brief.]

Originally Posted By: Cokeley
It was not so he did not vote.
Ned's vote MAY have created a tie causing the motion to fail.

Originally Posted By: Cokeley
Tom Peterman abstained.
It has long been my position all members should VOTE. The members of the Executive Council are representatives of their respective districts and I believe their constituency expects their elected representatives to VOTE.

Originally Posted By: Cokeley
THe YES voters and NO voters will have to disclose themselves.
Richard, as Parliamentarian, did not vote. During discussion of the motion Richard's position was made very clear and it was directly opposite that of District 4.
Do Richard and Will agree??

Is Will saying that we should do as KSHSAA would do??
Posted By: Cokeley Re: Oklahoma Kids allowed to wrestle subs. - 03/15/09 10:57 PM
Maybe Ned was confused about those complex rules. He told me that he did not vote because it wasn't a tie. I understand that you are saying that he could have voted to cause a tie?? It is immaterial at this point in time. The situation has been created and will remain in place until another vote.

I agree with Richard that ALL elected officials should attend and vote. ALL votes should be a roll call vote and every elected member should have their votes disclosed so that their constituency can question their justification for said votes. Just my opinion.

I have NOTHING against any of these Kids or the Hugton wrestling organization. I understand their position but this creates the potentional for lots of blurring of the "boundary lines". District 4 is geographically huge and it might be MUCH closer for a club to go to a District 2 or 3 sub? Are we going to grant that change due to the excessive mileage issue? Just curious, where do you draw the line?
Posted By: Cokeley Re: Oklahoma Kids allowed to wrestle subs. - 03/15/09 10:58 PM
KSHSAA is more of a tax issue situation but since I always get beat up for questioning some of their rules I thought I would use them to clarify this issue.
Originally Posted By: John Johnson
Do Richard and Will agree??
On many matters.
Posted By: Spexy Re: Oklahoma Kids allowed to wrestle subs. - 03/16/09 12:07 AM
Since I have family in western Ks. and don't think my boys can make it through our districts but could make it through D4, I could change their address to a town out west and wrestle there? That's basically whats happening here, you have left the flood gates open. Yes, I agree it's for the kids, but the kids want to make it to state REALLY, REALLY BAD!!! They have worked their butts off all year just to stay home due to the fact an OK. wrestler beat them out!!!!!
Posted By: BLT Re: Oklahoma Kids allowed to wrestle subs. - 03/16/09 01:39 AM
So what is the rule for KC?
Do they have to go to school in Ks?
To be the best you have to beat the best! Come on guys, I understand all the POLITICS on this issue but honestly what is the big issue here? My opinion is this; you have a parent or parents who are angry because their son or daughter is not moving on to DISTRICTS. Traveling, I have taken my son on many trips, Tulsa, Liberty, Monster Mash, oh Kansas Kids State in Topeka which is a 6 hour trip for us out in the Garden City area and I'm sure a bit longer for the Hugoton Club, i.e Guyman kids. So we know about traveling. I always tell my son that I really don't care if he wins a kids title because we are working towards big things and that is high school and beyond. He understands that and wants to compete against the best so if that means he has to beat some kid from Guymon Ok. then let him or her strap on that singlet!!!!!!!
Posted By: nix Re: Oklahoma Kids allowed to wrestle subs. - 03/16/09 01:52 AM
well said preito
Posted By: deeohh Re: Oklahoma Kids allowed to wrestle subs. - 03/16/09 02:02 AM
We have always lived in Picher ,OK and wrestled in Ks. We counldnt win any matches at state in OK, so we started coming up to KS where the the winning is much easier. My kids go to school in Picher, OK so they were granted a Presidential pardon for all the lead dust they have eatean over the years. They cant remember a lot. But they are looking forward to State in two weeks in Goodland,KS. They say thiers supposed to be hardly anyone there? Looks like another wall of thophies!
Posted By: Cokeley Re: Oklahoma Kids allowed to wrestle subs. - 03/16/09 02:08 AM
Deeohh and Ricky Bobby are brothers! You heard it here first!
Posted By: usawks1 Re: Oklahoma Kids allowed to wrestle subs. - 03/16/09 02:32 AM
District 1 has had exceptions made a few times on the residency requirement! But as Will described, if they attended school in Kansas they were allowed to wrestle.

Either/or ... seemed to be the "common law" when past boards were presented with these requests. Either they had to live or go to school in Kansas!

Posted By: deeohh Re: Oklahoma Kids allowed to wrestle subs. - 03/16/09 02:36 AM
This was all OKed by George W. right before Tiger Woods took over as President.
Posted By: Spexy Re: Oklahoma Kids allowed to wrestle subs. - 03/16/09 03:01 AM
Maybe we all need to move to Oklahoma, and this thread will die!!!!
Posted By: deeohh Re: Oklahoma Kids allowed to wrestle subs. - 03/16/09 03:34 AM
whoa, whoa, whoa, pump up the brakes Spexy. Did you not read. I have the blessing of both George W.Bush and new president Tiger Woods! Besides ther aint no houses left in Picher,OK
Posted By: usawks1 Re: Oklahoma Kids allowed to wrestle subs. - 03/16/09 03:40 AM
... there all in Galena!
Posted By: Thea Re: Oklahoma Kids allowed to wrestle subs. - 03/16/09 03:40 PM
I have received a couple of calls on this thread, so let me respond to a few of the questions. They are definitely valid and all of the questions, concerns and sides of the issue are valid and worth considering.
A. Hugoton did not "recruit" these kids. Their coaches, due to their travel concerns, asked if they could participate in the Kansas Kids Qualifier series. They called someone in the state office and were told they would need to write a letter which would be brought before the executive council. They asked if the Hugoton club that, if approved, they could practice and wrestle with and for the Hugoton club (because that is how the exective board told them it would have to be.) We expected their request to be turned down. I, actually, was shocked that it was not turned down. Quite honestly, I would have turned it down. I do not even buy into the travel item, for years, the Hills, Lissolos, I, and a few others traveled 3 - 7 hours back east to get some mat time against tough competition.
B. Should we have asked for the variance? The Guymon club wrote the letter asking for the variance explaining their position and circumstances, we agreed that if, okayed by the executive
council, they could wrestle with us. The benefits to us were more practice partners for our kids and more coaches to help with practices. That has happened. After they received their variance from the executive council, they began to come to our practices.
1) How many OK kids wrestle for your club?
I entered 8 Guymon kids into the sub district tournament, 1 scratched. The other 7 were in the 8 & U division.
2) How long have they been wrestling for your club?
They began to wrestle for our club for the sub district tournament after receiving their variance.
3) Do you enter them into the tournaments your club goes to?
Our club alot of times goes to two different tournaments, a close one for the new kids (due to travel time and expenses and a second one 3 - 7 hours away for our more advanced kids who need more mat time or need to see the tougher competition. Even though the Guymon kids were at several of the tournaments our kids wrestled at, we did not enter them. I assume this is because they wanted the variance before making this commitment. I do not know this, I assume this since they began coming to our practices and checked out a team singlet after they received their variance.

C. Weston Maravilla is a Hugoton kid. His mom is a nurse in Hugoton and his parents own a house here in Hugoton. They moved to Hugoton from Liberal before Weston started preschool here. Even though Weston is not a second grader, he is in First Grade here at Hugoton Elementary. He is my grandson and has a great time wrestling with his Uncle Derek (a couple of nights ago they were practicing submission holds..too much UFC!)

D. Was it shady? The Guymon club went through the proper channels and were given the variance. They were told the only way they could wrestle in the Kansas Qualifier series was to wrestle under the Hugoton Club. Should Hugoton have turned them down? Maybe........I wouldn't have made that decision because of my bias, my thoughts went to exactly the same place, what if one of them took Derek's chances of competing at the state tournament away? It is a great thing to watch your child work hard and have that work rewarded by competing at the state level. I was glad the decision was left to the executive board who I felt would be less biased. If we do not like the ruling or trust the council's decision making and want more control over it, lets change the rule and make it more specific and restrictive so that there are no gray lines.

I think all the posts on this subject have been well thought out and deserve answers, so if you have other questions or thoughts you can post them here or email me and I will do my best to respond. I appreciate the respectfulness of all who have posted here.

I should say I am not posting this as an official club response, but I have been the Hugoton Wrestling Club secretary for a few years. They are a great group of people and coaches.

Thea Schnittker
ziprosel@hotmail.com or tschnitt@pld.com
Posted By: badbo Re: Oklahoma Kids allowed to wrestle subs. - 03/16/09 04:24 PM
Sounds like this is settled. Time to wrestle.
Well said and very eloquent as well. Strap up and get after it kids.
Posted By: usawks1 Re: Oklahoma Kids allowed to wrestle subs. - 03/16/09 08:08 PM
... and if I might add, I have always found the Hugoton to be a class organization! They definitely have the kids in the forefront of their thoughts!
Posted By: Cokeley Re: Oklahoma Kids allowed to wrestle subs. - 03/16/09 10:03 PM
For the record, this topic, from my perspective, has NEVER been an indictment on the Hugoton Wrestling Club. I don't even have a problem with these kids wrestling this year. I merely want to point out that our Kids Executive Board has set a precedent that is a mighty slippery slope. No one has done anything WRONG, per se, but way the issue has been handled opens up the door for many, many other situations and may cause the need for more rules and more clarification from this point forward. To me, that is the REAL ISSUE not 7 kids from Guymon, OK.
Just curious if these kids wrestled in Oklahoma during their season, finished there (went to qualifiers), then came to Kansas? Double dipping?
Posted By: tcob Re: Oklahoma Kids allowed to wrestle subs. - 03/18/09 02:21 AM
Not that I count, here is my opinion, If they live in Kansas they wrestle in Ks. "That is what a state tournament is about". Otherwise let's let every state in and call it a national tourney. "Is it the money they are after?" "Or the kid with a medal on his chest saying " I won the Kansas State Tourney>"
Posted By: ReDPloyd Re: Oklahoma Kids allowed to wrestle subs. - 03/18/09 09:56 AM
Originally Posted By: jcassaboom
Just curious if these kids wrestled in Oklahoma during their season, finished there (went to qualifiers), then came to Kansas? Double dipping?


Good question. And the answer is ...................?
Posted By: 2coach Re: Oklahoma Kids allowed to wrestle subs. - 03/18/09 11:26 AM
They are not double dipping, they were at every tournament that southwest kansas had, most were at Hays or at least some of the better ones. It's a first year club with alot of first year wrestlers that have only wrestled in Kansas.
Posted By: ReDPloyd Re: Oklahoma Kids allowed to wrestle subs. - 03/18/09 11:35 AM
Originally Posted By: 2coach
They are not double dipping, they were at every tournament that southwest kansas had, most were at Hays or at least some of the better ones. It's a first year club with alot of first year wrestlers that have only wrestled in Kansas.


Even better answer.
Posted By: birddog Re: Oklahoma Kids allowed to wrestle subs. - 03/18/09 08:48 PM
Take a look at the oklahoma wrestling web site (forums)- they think we are a joke for letting the oklahoma boys wrestle in our Kansas state tournie - they even go as for as saying they wouldn't let us wrestle in their state tournie. I don't want to exclude any kid from wrestling but a state championship is meant for state residents.
Originally Posted By: birddog
Take a look at the oklahoma wrestling web site (forums)- they think we are a joke for letting the oklahoma boys wrestle in our Kansas state tournie - they even go as for as saying they wouldn't let us wrestle in their state tournie. I don't want to exclude any kid from wrestling but a state championship is meant for state residents.

As wrong as this decision was and is, please don't compare us to okies.
Tue Mar 17 17:20:51 2009 205.153.56.10
Jerry Scott <>
Quote:

nRE: First of all OKWA set the rule on who can and who can't compete at State, NOT ME, NOT YOU! If they want to put in that you can't go unless you have an aunt missing 3 toes and a frekle on her left hip, THEY CAN!! If they put that you have to attend school in OKLAOMA, THEY CAN. THIS WHOLE PI)*(&)*(& contest concerns "SUPPOSEDLY an out of stater can attend KANSAS state tournament". FIRST, I haven't seen ANYTHING to that effect. And frankly, I could care less, I don't want out of staters entering Oklahoma Kids State. Also!! there has been real shaky comments WHERE Rea's live, They've given a Missouri address at times, dad does something in construction and has a box in some little town barely in Oklahoma. I do know first hand, I've been told by reputable people that Mr. Rea was telling they were going to wrestle the Missouri State AND Oklahoma State. I HAVE NO USE FOR THAT TYPE OF ATTITUDE. Good Luck to Kyler in Missouri, I imagine he will win. He "might" win in Oklahoma (but a whole bunch who I thought would also, ... didn't). When He has a home that one could go ito and have a cup of coffee, a school administrator verifying attendence in an Oklahoma school, plus a report card, hey, I'd let Alf attend Oklahoma Kids State if he met that. QUIT YOUR WHINNING.


....from the Oklahoma boards .....just makes you grin and giggle.
Posted By: Paratroop Re: Oklahoma Kids allowed to wrestle subs. - 03/18/09 09:37 PM
Anyone got the links to the Oklahoma board?
Posted By: Namwen Re: Oklahoma Kids allowed to wrestle subs. - 03/18/09 10:12 PM
http://okseries.com/cgi/kforum.cgi
Posted By: Paratroop Re: Oklahoma Kids allowed to wrestle subs. - 03/18/09 11:01 PM
Thanks
Posted By: 2coach Re: Oklahoma Kids allowed to wrestle subs. - 03/19/09 12:09 PM
birddog, you are just scared that it will take your championship place away from you cause they have a boy in your boys weight. who will pretty much win that weight class...
Posted By: birddog Re: Oklahoma Kids allowed to wrestle subs. - 03/19/09 08:02 PM
2coach (rodriguez - is that you?)- "scared" you are right!. But IMO the Kansas State tournie is still for state residents only. By the way who is the Hugoton Kid in my son's weight class 10/79.
Posted By: Thea Re: Oklahoma Kids allowed to wrestle subs. - 03/19/09 09:05 PM
Please let me preface this with telling you I understand and respect your opinion. To answer the questions that have come up....

1. The Guymon, OK kids did not participate in their state series, as for any other Oklahoma tournaments..I am unsure. Does this change the facts on the biggest complaint I have heard (residency)? Probably not...I am only answering the question posed.

2. All 7 of the Guymon kids were in the 8 and Under division. There are three moving on to districts. Most of the Guymon kids are beginners.

If you have other questions..........

Thea Schnittker
Posted By: ReDPloyd Re: Oklahoma Kids allowed to wrestle subs. - 03/19/09 09:52 PM
Originally Posted By: Thea

All 7 of the Guymon kids were in the 8 and Under division. There are three moving on to districts. Most of the Guymon kids are beginners.


This is where I figured out my thoughts on this subject. All of our kids start out as beginners, many of which are U6 or U8. Some of them will eventually become very good or great wrestlers. Even though these young wrestlers may not impact the State Championship results much this year, they could down the road. I do think that this needs to be ruled on now, because in the future, it may very well make a big difference.
Posted By: 2coach Re: Oklahoma Kids allowed to wrestle subs. - 03/20/09 02:07 AM
Okay you got me, you know I was only kidding, tell Chuckie to go get it and wrestle hard. I do not know the kid from Hugoton at his weight...
Posted By: tcob Re: Oklahoma Kids allowed to wrestle subs. - 03/22/09 02:46 AM
If we would want to wrestle in a national bracket we would transport to them. Living in western Ks. we travel all over the State looking for the competition. We have placed at state ever since 5u, we are now at the top of 10u, going to State again. When we have been at the top of the age bracket, "he" has had a3rd place finish. At the bottom of the age bracket, a 5th place finish. It is to our child and ourselves to get ahead of this record. All children have dreams and one step at a time goals. Why let someone from another State in, to fullfil their dreams before our own. We have one boy in our bracket that has placed at State at least the last 2 years. He lives in Ks. The only place we see that he wrestles most of the year, is in Oklahoma,until the qualifing tourneys begin. Then he is back in Ks. We have not surched enough to know how the OK tourneys go.
Posted By: Disney Re: Oklahoma Kids allowed to wrestle subs. - 03/22/09 02:59 AM
Will -
Not to stir the pot because this isn't my battle but I am a little confused with your position. At the high school level you appear to favor less restrictive rules with an eye towards increasing competition. Your attitude reflects in the performance of your son. Steel sharpens steel so to speak.

But on this issue you seem to take a position that would hurt these kids and their wrestling. Do you think banning these kids from the Ks series will make them go to a Oklhoma club? My guess is it would frustrate the family and they would move on to another sport. They are just kids. The more competition the better. It will pay off in the end.
Posted By: Cokeley Re: Oklahoma Kids allowed to wrestle subs. - 03/23/09 03:14 AM
Barry,

My problem is not with this club or these kids but yet with the precedence that it sets. Where do you draw the line? This decision opens the flood gates, from my perspective, for any small clubs who feel like our organization is more attractive than their home state's. I have NEVER stated that KSHSAA should open up the borders and invite HS teams from bordering states to compete in the Kansas Regional and State tournament. A state tournament, to me, is black and white for the state residents only.

What is your position Barry? If you read everything that I wrote on this post there should be no confusion on your part. I am confused how this would hurt these kids. I think the story is a bit skewed. We all travel to wrestle in Kansas. It is MUCH closer for them to drive to Oklahoma City for state than to Topeka.
Will,

I'm with you on this! This is one of them no brainer... It called Kansas Kid State!!!
I know in the past kids from Missouri I think the Walker at STA, The Stroms at Bishop Mieg
have been in the kids qualifying tourments... And a lot more that we may not know of!
Posted By: markrat Re: Oklahoma Kids allowed to wrestle subs. - 03/25/09 07:43 PM
There have been kids who lived 2 miles into CO and attended a Kansas school wrestle in the KS kids state wrestling tourney in the past. I also know of some out of state kids that wrestled and placed in KS High School state tournaments.
I think if a kid signs up with a Kansas kids club at the beginning of the year and practices with that club the entire year and goes to the Kansas tournaments - the majority of the ones available - then that individual should be able to wrestle in the state series. If the individual signs up with a Missouri Club and practices all year with a Missouri Club and travels to Missouri tournaments all year - then they should wrestle in the Missouri state tournament. If someone wants to sign up just for subdistricts, districts, and state and they belong to an out of state club (or they got their card with a club in a different state) they should not be allowed in the Kansas state series. There is a form that must be filled out with USAWKS if you have a kid or kids in your club with an out of state address
that must be filled out every year and sent in. Why would an athlete that practiced all year with Kansas kids, paid his or her dues to USAWKS and competed mainly against Kansas kids all year - not be allowed in this state series. Some people can not help it if they live right on a state border. All in all I do not think it is that big of a deal. But if a RULE is made it must be made so everyone knows at the very beginning of the season. So we as clubs can tell an out of state kid that they can not participate in the Kansas state series. It would be real easy for the National USA organization to make a national rule for every state. The rule could read: You can only particpate in only one folkstyle state series and that is the state of your primary residence. Or the rule could read: You can only participate in only one folkstyle state series and that state is the state that is the state of the club that issued your card. If the rule is violated and found out - then what is the disciplinary action?????
Posted By: luellen Re: Oklahoma Kids allowed to wrestle subs. - 03/25/09 09:06 PM
I say we make it simple if you wrestle in ks state you must live & reside in kansas. I aqree with Will this opens up a can of worms. This does not stop kids from wrestling in kansas regular season tournaments.
If changed it needs to be rule. For the kids sake they should have been told NO you can not particpate because you are an Oklahoma, Missouri, New York resident before subdistricts - not when they pull in to Topeka for weigh-ins. If everyone wants the rule change get it on the state agenda for the next meeting in October or November in 2009 so it can be voted on and changed or stays the same. I think that is the process that needs to take place. Participation numbers will go down. I do not know by home many - I do not have a list of all the kids with out of state addresses that signed up for USAWKS.
Posted By: Disney Re: Oklahoma Kids allowed to wrestle subs. - 03/26/09 02:03 AM
What is my position?

I think when Atticus was younger I would not have liked the idea. Who wasn't happy at State when the bracket looked easy? Doing well at Kids state was pretty important.

But now I beleive that for our wrestlers to do well in high school and on the national level they need as strong of competition as they can get. We are in a small state population wise. I hate to see a kid be the toughest kid in south central Kansas but get destroyed the first time he faces someone who is pretty good. I think the "take on all comers" attitude is one we should encourage in our wrestlers. They may take a few losses but will be better for it.

I also think the existing rule is pretty good. The number of cases are few. They have to come in front of the board and it is not a rubber stamp.

I realize that this is coming from someone whose Kids State days are over and my views may be a little Polly Anna but they are what they are.
Posted By: Cokeley Re: Oklahoma Kids allowed to wrestle subs. - 03/26/09 02:11 AM
Barry,

You get that competition outside of the three weeks we set aside for the KANSAS Kids State Tournament Series. The rule has always been flexible to allow kids who live out of state but attend school in state. These kids ALWAYS belonged to a Kansas Kids club. This is a town, not a suburb, that exists in another state that decided that it was more convenient to wrestle in Kansas. You are an attorney, would you want a rule that said you didn't have to pass the Kansas bar if you have passed the Oklahoma bar and you live close to Kansas? To me this is a situation where the line has to be drawn and the gray has to be made black and white or we will have small towns from Colorado and Nebraska wanting to do the same thing.

This isn't about getting better or improving competition. If were about that I would say bring them all in but then it wouldn't be a STATE tournament.
Posted By: Ben Dover Re: Oklahoma Kids allowed to wrestle subs. - 03/26/09 09:12 AM
How about at the next Olympic trials for USA Wrestling we go ahead and invite the Canadians, their close!!

As far as the “Bring on the competition” argument. Lets compare it to High School wrestling. During the regular season teams are free to wrestle teams outside of their league, classification, and State(with certain restrictions). But buy rule, and common sense, at the end of the season to find a league champion just the teams in the league are allowed to compete! IT IS NOT AN OPEN TOUNAMENT!! The same logic applies to Regional and State.

Now I realize that Teams can change leagues and classifications but my point is that the State Tournament,IS NOT AN OPEN TOURNAMENT, and the boundary line seems pretty clear,Kansas STATE wrestling championship.
I am in total agreement with you Will.

The Topeka State Sunflower Games only allows Kansas residents to participate in their athletic events.

Draw the line. Kansas residents/Kansas Wrestling State Tournament.

For those that want to bring it on they will be @ USJOC/Roller's Series/USAW's Liberty Nationals etc.
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