In the next eight days the Kansas Kids Folkstyle season will wind down and wrap up with the awarding of the plaques to the top six in each age and weight group. This culminates a long season of driving to practice, traveling to tournaments, blood, sweat, and many tears. I want to congratulate not only all of those who will place but all of those who set foot on a mat this year.
On the Monday after the state tournament time the readership of this forum will fall drastically and most of you will go into wrestling hibernation. Before you go into that well deserved slumber read this and send email to our leadership about the things you support and the things you would like changed.
Each year for the past three years the number of card buyers has increased but the number of sub district participants has fallen. The majority of parents site the length of the season but little has been discussed at the Executive Board level to implement changes to the present schedule. How many of you would like to have a spring break that didn't involve three or four nights of practice for districts? How many of you would love to take your wrestlers to the Big 12 or NCAA wrestling tournament (Next year the NCAA's are in Omaha)? How many of you (and clearly the number of card buyers speaks for this) would like to see a 6U Division at State? How many of you would like to eliminate subdistricts for 16U (the largest group of no shows EVERY year)?
In April the Executive Board will be voting for a state tournament site in 2010. I am advocating and looking for all of you to support a 1 year contract that will allow us to explore some options that will REALLY make a difference. 6U, 8U, 10U State could be held the weekend before high school regionals which would allow it to move around the state to each district. This would allow our current tournament to grow.
Believe it or not we are at capacity folks. Wichita is the ONLY city that can comfortably host our existing event. There are hotel room issues, parking issues, mat space issues, etc. We couldn't add an age group if we had to!
Eliminate subs for 12U, 14U, and 16U. After high school state have a district tournament the FOLLOWING WEEKEND for 12U, 14U, 16U, and 18U. Use high school weights for 16 and 18. This tournament would be able to move around the state as well. Gross Coliseum in Hays, Lee Arena, Expo Center, Bicentennial Center, Kansas Coliseum, etc.
This would close our Folkstyle season two weeks earlier eliminating spring break conflict, NCAA Conflict, USA Middle School Duals Conflict, Baseball conflict, soccer conflict, etc.
Nobody on here loves wrestling more than I do so I am not saying kids should stop wrestling earlier. There are plenty of other wrestling options. Wichita could host a national kids tournament, so could Hays. More FS/GR tournaments could be created. There are lots and lots of wrestling opportunities YEAR ROUND. Our season is too long for the majority of our members and this is causing a shrinkage in the participation level of state tournament series.
If your organization is NOT GROWING then it is SHRINKING. Please believe me, we are SHRINKING at this time. Our state tournament cannot grow in its present state, IT MUST CHANGE. When you fail to change inside your organization faster than the changes outside of your organization then your organization will become obsolete! The idea above will promote growth and capture a larger percentage of our card buyers into our two state tournament series. I don't want to hear that people cannot afford two state tournaments because those same people would be going to a tournament somewhere every weekend just like they are now. This proposal eliminates two weeks of mandatory wrestling for the present state series for the older kids and four weeks for the younger kids. We have to figure out how to GROW and how to RETAIN our members from one year to the next.
Remember, only an idiot thinks that improvement will happen without change. I want to believe we have NO idiots in our organization so it is time to IMPROVE our sport. Encourage your District's leadership to vote for a one year contract and start generating some ideas to grow now. If we keep shrinking sooner, not later, it will be too late.
I think that Will is right on here. The only thing I would change is to cut out 16U and add 6U and finish the season the week before HS State. We would still have folkstyle nationals to prepare for and freestyle/greco could start sooner. By cutting the season a month shorter we could increase the amount of athletes competing in freestyle/greco.
As far as moving state to Wichita...no brainer. It has to be done. Topeka is running out of space and Wichita is a much better choice.
We have to accomodate the middle schoolers for 12U and 14U. Middle school seasons are not over in time so we would not be able to have a true state that early. KSHSAA member JH and MS programs are NOT allowed to participate in non-school sanctioned events during their season. Stupid rule but nontheless it is in place.
I like a lot of your ideas and do realize that my 6u son is done about the beginning of March and he gets tired of practice and tournaments. When my oldest on was 6u he never got tired of practice. I can see at our practices that it is the 6u and some 8u that get tired of it. My oldest on which is 10u this year cried for an hour because his season ended early with a torn rotator cuff. I don't think that we can keep the season long enough for him. I would love to see a 6u state even if it is with only the 8u and 10u. I can see some problem and that being that if you do a sub and district 2 weeks before what will the 12u-18u we will have two tournaments to go to. I don't know if that would get more participation. That would split our family up and so then either my husband or I would havee to miss my 6u-10u state to participate with the 12u-18u in another tournament. (If Im understanding what you are saying). I do understand that most places can't handle anymore people and Topeka can only handle so much before something has to give. I also understand that things can't stay the same something has to give for growth. I wouldn't want all of your jobs due to the conflict that will happen. Most people will be very angry if you try to promote change. Will, I am glad that you have an open mind to change. I do know that most will not be as open as you to change. A lot of people will have to speak up to get this changed. I think it is great and good luck.
I agree with Will 95%. I like Coach Craig's idea of just cutting out the 16U. We are already behind most of the country on starting Freestyle and Greco. For the last two years I have complained about not getting to watch the NCAA's. Jake learns more watching the Big 12 championships then going to four tournaments. There are several reasons to shorten the season and very few to leave it like it is.
We would still have folkstyle nationals to prepare for and freestyle/greco could start sooner. By cutting the season a month shorter we could increase the amount of athletes competing in freestyle/greco.
Let me start by saying, I love the sport of wrestling. My passion for wrestling is very deep. That being said, I don't have a problem with having Subs, Districts, then State (folkstyle). My son wrestled Jr High for the first time this year and he has been wrestling since October. We hope to be seeing a lot of you the weekend after this one. After that, it will be time to move on to baseball, soccer and Jr High track. He is probably missing out by not wrestling Greco and Freestyle as far as progressing in the sport of wrestling. I am ok with that, and I believe that he is as well. I think that he will be a very good High School wrestler when the time comes. If your son/daughter wants to wrestle year 'round, that is great. I don't think we need to cut the Kids' (Folkstlye) Wrestling season back to make time for more Greco/Freestyle time on the mat. Most wrestlers are moving on to other sports.
The middle school season is odd anyway. They need to make it more efficient. Not enough mat time for the length. I know that some kids would miss out on the season, but I don't think that this minority of kids should dictate what is best for the majority. Not trying to say that the Middle School programs are not important, but USAWKS has to do what is best for USAWKS as a whole. Plus, I think there are a good amount of middle school programs that are lacking. Unqualified coaches and some kids have regressed. I am just going by my expierences.
The middle school season is odd anyway. They need to make it more efficient. Not enough mat time for the length.
My son wrestled seventeen matches in a seven week season. The first week and a half was practice, so seventeen matches in five and half weeks. Our coaches were very good and the experience (wrestling Jr High for a team) was priceless.
I love the idea of change. Every year all of this stuff comes up on the forum. I think that most people on here understand about 75% of what you are saying. I would also guess about 85% really agree qith most of your ideas but I would guess th only 20% really understand what steps they would need to take to help us make these much needed changes.
I think someone (maybe Will or Beeson or a few others as well) needs to come on here and walk some people through the process of who to get into touch with to help make these changes.
Get email addresses and start gathering names of supporters.
Have every idea listed out and people can send if they agree or disagree to each topic to one person and then it can presented to the Board. Then, if & when change is NOT made we can have facts and numbers to hold the board (or certain district level personel accountable for not listening to the peoples voice.
So to ramble but if we want this done then the time is short and someone needs to take the lead!
Change is need
I don't think that we would be short changing the folkstyle for greco and freestyle by cutting the season short one month. The season as it is, is too long (6 months). High School and College wrestling are shorter than Kids wrestling. There is not one sport that has a longer season than wrestling. 6U, 8U, 10U, and 12U should be done by February. That way the kids can go and watch High School State, Big 12 championships, and NCAA championships. Let the kids watch these events so they will have goals and dreams to participate in them.
I wrestled middle school and had a great expierence. I think it is a very important part of the transition to High School. Kids do not get as much of the team aspect in club wrestling as they do in Middle school. What I am getting at is make the season a true season for them. I don't think that 1 1/2 months constitutes as a season. I would like to see more JR High wrestling in Wichita, but it won't happen due to the amount of middle schools. Also, don't think for a second that I think that all Jr High coaches are not qualified...from my expierence I have heard more stories of unqualified coaches. Please do not take one piece of the comment and make it out to be a representation of my point of view. I am working with my own expierences and those, more than likely, will be different than everyone else on the board.
Now back to the topic.....
Cut the USAWKS season back a month. This could cut out middle school wrstlers, but they would still be able to compete at the national level or dive right into freestyle/greco.
With the middle school topic on my mind....
Why not a Jr high State??? Oklahoma does it.
Not all kids wrestle Jr. high in our club we have kids that are homeschooled and they wouldn't wrestle for the jr. high. That would not be fair to these kids. Just a thought
Beeson,
I have really enjoyed reading your posts on the Kansas Wrestling website. You are definitely very knowledgeable and have some great comments. Our Kids' Wrestling season starts the first Monday after Thanksgiving. A majority of our kids don't wrestle in a tournament until mid/late December. Counting practice, our season is really only about 4 months long. Believe me, down the stretch, I am ready for it to be over. At the same time, within a few months, I am ready for it to begin again. Good luck this weekend.
Not all kids wrestle Jr. high in our club we have kids that are homeschooled and they wouldn't wrestle for the jr. high. That would not be fair to these kids. Just a thought
Then these kids would wrestle in their respective age brackets with USAWKS. I have a whole slew of JR High kids that don't wrestle middle school.
BLT brings up a good point. Who do we need to talk to make the necessary changes? I’ll jump on that band wagon. Point me in the right direction.
Why not let JR High kids wrestle for kids club and middle school as long there is not a conflict with the schools schedule. Can the middle school season move to earlier in the year? This would allow them to get more wrestling in.
I wrestled middle school and had a great expierence. I think it is a very important part of the transition to High School. Kids do not get as much of the team aspect in club wrestling as they do in Middle school.
coach craig,
You took the words right out of my mouth. I wanted to say something about the Jr High to High School transition, the whole team concept of wrestling, the comaraderie of these young adults. You nailed it on the head. As far as our Jr High coaches, they are very good. I realize that we are very fortunate to have them, even more fortunate to have Jr High wrestling as a school activity. I know that many of the schools in the KC area don't have Jr High wrestling. I just hope that we don't lose these programs to budget cuts across the state.
It also needs to be remembered that in western Kansas, we don't have the convenience of close tournaments set up much before the beginning of January. We don't even start kids wrestling practice until the beginning of December as a club, so therefore, our length of season is already down to 4 months including the month of practice. You don't realize how lucky you are in Eastern Kansas at times. My other concern is with the fact that you would be asking a family, like my own, with 4 kids, that would fall into 3 different state tournaments, to travel to 3 different sites on 3 differnet weekends. Yes, I would find a way to afford it for my kids, but there are others in this economy that wouldn't be able to find a way to make it work. Yes, changes need to be made and the way you have described it Will, would be great, I am just saying we need to take into consideration the families that can't afford to give their kids the luxuries you and I have where wrestling is concerned. I would also like to see our MS season moved as indicated by another thread. It would give our MS athletes a better opportunity to participate in Kids wrestling and not have to make a choice between the MS team and Kids.
Good ideas all,
I have already mentioned in other posts that if we dropped the Sub-districts that would save both time and money. You would get full brackets and shorten the season by one week.
Also would like the see the Weight brackets change so that they make more sense esp on the high and low ends. Too many at the low and not enough on the high in my opinion.
Also would like us try and get a National tournament in this state. I think we are shorting ourselves in this regard.
I think alot of people are missing why some kids dont go to state.There is more to it than time.To some kids it is just fun,when it gets hard [state-tournaments] they do not want to go.If people hear the kids some would like to go all year,some only 1 day a week and some just what to go to touraments.There is also the $ factor some can not spend the cash to go all over the place.
Than you think making 3 difrant state tournaments for difrant ages will make it better.I think of this as a family time.So if you have to split up or go on difrant day,the cost will be to high for some.
For me it is a no brainer.This is my sons 2nd year.He is 8 and under.In the start of the year he did not get it much at all.In the middle of the year he was doing ok maby less than ok.In the last 5 tournaments he has gotten it.It will be a hard road to get to state but he has a very good chance to do it at this time.Six weeks ago he would not have made it though subs.It takes some of the kids alittle longer to grasp all of it.
Charles
Doing away with subs will only help the best kids.If you have a full bracket at subs you will get a 16+ bracket at dis.
I do think that the bottom end of the weight bracket needs some changes.I do not think putting boys in the heaver end all bunched together will make things better.
No one says you can not skip on some days.I know most do not go to every turnament.If you want spring break off take it.I know no one in our club will come drag you off the beach.
I do think some National turnaments would be good.Even just more state=state would be nice.
The problem with taking spring break off is that it is always during the qualifiers or state tournament. It wouldn't be a problem if spring break fell in the regular kids club season.
Great feedback! One thing I am confused about is the three state tournament comments. I suggested two:
6,8,10 In early February (requires subs, dist, state)
12,14,16,18 In early March (requires dist, state only)
There are lots of good questions and there is no solution that will satisfy all of the concerns and issues but status quo is definitely not a good answer.
Please email any and all of these folks:
Kids Executive Council (click here for additional information)
Executive State Director Ned Price
(913) 367-7095
Nedrick.Price@sodexo.com
Executive Ass't State Director Tom Richard
(785) 537-4935
tomr@cbsmhk.com
Treasurer Leanna Buckley
(785) 944-3630
lbuckley@twinvalley.net
Secretary
Parliamentarian Richard Salyer
(316) 541-2764
RichardDSalyer@sbcglobal.net
State Freestyle/Greco Director Kyle Roberts
(620) 792-3504
kroberts@usawks.com
Officials Representative Loren Anthony
(316) 320-2470
janthony3@cox.net
District 1 (go to Kids page for additional information)
Director Lee (Tuff) Hermreck
(913) 294-5658
hermreck@skw-inc.com
Assistant Director Mark Stanley
(785) 286-0899
mstanley@haydentower.com
Assistant Director Joe Cisper
(913) 491-4846
cisper@hotmail.com
Freestyle Director Tom Peterman
(913) 262-9656
Raslion1@sbcglobal.net
District 2 (go to Kids page for additional information)
Director Jess Keith
(316) 721-4430
JessSK@cox.net
Assistant Director Kenny Taylor, Sr.
(316) 744-3753
foxktgt@aol.com
Assistant Director Scott Biddle
(316) 394-2533
centralwrestlingclub@yahoo.com
Freestyle Director Charles Knox
(316) 685-5948
teamofhardknox@sbcglobal.net
District 3 (go to Kids page for additional information)
Director Lance Engel
(620) 241-5679
llengel@ks-usa.net
Assistant Director Darrel Loder
(785) 546-2096
drloder@sbcglobal.net
Assistant Director Michael Brownell
(785) 632-1464
coachbrownell@yahoo.com
Freestyle Director James Cook
(785) 227-2379
jcook@maswu.org
District 4 (go to Kids page for additional information)
Director Steve Woody
(785) 626-3309
stripes@ruraltel.net
Assistant Director Kyle Wright
(785) 877-3834
kylew@ksdot.org
Assistant Director Scott Edwards
(620) 338-2987
scout68@cox.net
Freestyle Director Kent Hahn
(785) 425-7108
stcktonrx@ruraltel.net
Freestyle Director Joe Arellano
(620) 640-4851
swgrapplers@cox.net
Please copy me on your suggestions, comments, proposals, concerns, etc. I would love to get a movement started and keep the momentum going.
willcokeley@gmail.com
Will, I was referring to the HS state tournament in the middle of the two you have down. That is where I got 3 tournaments from.
i really thing we could learn alot from a good old okie like coach craig. I just have to wonder do the kids learn more in the club or the Jr. high wrestling. I talk to alot of dads that say even if they had jr. high wrestling they would stay with the club. I dont get it why the jr. high programs start so late but i would like to see the season cut around a month earlier. I would like to start freestyle in the next few years but really doubt my son is going to want to wrestle for 7 to 8 months. 5 months is long enough. someday if we actually start listening to some of the ideas from the other states and make it happen you will not hear kansas wrestling say we are still getting our butts kicked by oklahoma and iowa.
So Will,
If I wanted to express my opinion on the length of the season, where we should have state, and some ideas on different weight classes what steps should I take.
Let's say I'm in district 2.
Walk me though it!
What Would Will Do?
HA! Instead of WWJD - we need WWWD wrist-bands! ;-)
Will, you might find the link below informative and entertaining:
http://www.thematforums.com/myforum/?show_forum=4High school national forum. One thread is about 'how is your state tourney ran?' Dealing with KS having THREE sights and how that compares with other states (hint: I haven't read of a SINGLE one yet that has 3 different locations like us!) -- this thread even has some cool pics!
The other thread on the same forum that I think would interest you is titled:
"Do you guys think states should be one-class (in any given state)?"
Instead of traveling to oklahoma why don't we just start the same time they do? And end the same time they do!! 16u not sure they belong in kids state, getting pretty old and thay have their chance in HS. 14u yes if we can decide if they can do both Jr. high and kids club. If we would start the same time as Ok. just think of all the different venues to pick from, Kansas kids in Oklahoma and Oklahoma kids in Kansas, and neither one trying to wrestle the others State tourney!!!! Tulsa, JOC, Kansas kick-off (if happens) Salina, Wichita classic, this is where you can tell how good your kids really are. Shorten the season and wrestle the big ones, but don't forget about your local tourneys, not having to travel a long distance is crutical to some....What if the season was shorter, all you would have to do is get 2 clubs to hold one big tournament instead of 2 small ones and run it together (IMO) This would still bring in the numbers and make for one kick butt tournament
I have been asking this question all season. My son wrestled middle school for the first time and did have a wonderful team experience unlike he has ever had with kids club. However, the competition was not as tough and this may have hurt him some in the long run. It is my understanding that the Kansas High School Activities Association is the one who made the rule about middle school kids not being able to wrestle kids club at the same time. I do not see why this would be a problem as long as the wrestler was at every middle school practice and dual/tournament and then did kids club on the weekends and when ever else it could fit in. It would only make for better wrestlers. I know this rule has been around since I was in high school (80's) and applies to swimming and any other sport. Does anyone know why they made this rule? Has anyone ever tried to get it changed?
I don't think that we would be short changing the folkstyle for greco and freestyle by cutting the season short one month. The season as it is, is too long (6 months). High School and College wrestling are shorter than Kids wrestling. There is not one sport that has a longer season than wrestling. 6U, 8U, 10U, and 12U should be done by February. That way the kids can go and watch High School State, Big 12 championships, and NCAA championships. Let the kids watch these events so they will have goals and dreams to participate in them.
Well said Beeson! I went to the NCAA Championship every year from 1987 to 2005. But since back in Kansas 4 years ago I have missed the last 4 NCAAs due to our scheduling here. The kids need to be watching college and high school championships.
My dad took me to all of these things to watch for years. Every big tournament I ever wrestled in (high school state to Olympic trials) I watched several times before ever competing in them.
He had the attitude, "how can you expect to visualize or win a tournament you have never seen?" Of course he also thought outside of the box more than most people do. . . something you have to do to become a champion!
Eric, I think its very important for guys like you among others that wrestled in college to push for this at the state level. Those things coming from guys like you might, just might make those guys that make all the rules actually begin to listen at what really makes a difference. My question is this for all those that make the highschool and kids wrestling rules. What kind of wrestling do they do in college. So if we make folkstyle 6 months and freestyle what 1 or 2 months what does that actually do for our kids when they get to that level. Dont you think it would be worth while to shorten the folkstyle season and start the freestyle a little sooner. I really dont know because I havent had a chance to get my kid started in freestyle because by the time that starts my kid is done with wrestling physically and mentally. He is ready for baseball by that time. It is ok for kids to play 3 sports these days right.
Does anyone know why they made this rule?
Yes!
The rule is:
A student who is a member of a school athletic, scholars’ bowl or debate squad effective Tuesday following Labor Day through Friday preceding Memorial Day may not participate as a member of an outside team or as an independent competitor in the same sport, scholars’ bowl or debate activity.
The purpose of the KSHSAA is:
This Corporation is organized not for profit and it is organized and shall be operated exclusively for the following
educational purposes:(A) To contribute to the education of the middle/junior and senior high school boys and girls of Kansas by:
(1) Administering a program of interscholastic activities, festivals, clinics and contests among member
schools.
(2) Elevating the standards of good sportsmanship and encouraging the growth of good citizenship, not only for middle/junior and senior high school boys and girls, but also of adults and all others who come into contact with school activities.
(3) Protecting member schools from
exploitation by special-interest groups.
(4) Encouraging pride in scholastic achievement as a fundamental basis for a well-balanced activity program.
(5) Serving the best interests of all member schools by influencing the proper type of legislation or any other desirable means.
The KSHSAA Mission Statement is:
Mission Statement
Goals that Influence Student Learning Outcomes
The Kansas State High School Activities Association advocates principles and sponsors services which assure that the state’s middle level and high school students gain a balanced preparation for life, work, and post-secondary education.
Principles on Which Intended Outcomes are Based
Principles advocated by the association are promotion of scholastic achievement as a fundamental basis for a well balanced activity program, and development of effective citizenship through the practice of good sportsmanship.
Services to Accomplish the Mission
Services provided by the association are:
1. sponsorship of educational workshops, seminars, conferences and publications designed to inform and positively
influence students, parents, educators and community members in accordance with organizational principles;
2. administration of a program of interscholastic activities, festivals, clinics and contests among member schools;
3. protection of member schools from exploitation by special interest groups; and
4. communication with policy-making bodies to influence decisions consistent with association principles and operational standards
Has anyone ever tried to get it changed?
Yes!
In past years there have been several organized attempts from the Kansas City and Wichita areas to introduce legislation in both the Kansas House and Senate to address the "Outside Competition" rules enforced by KSHSAA.
Also, there was a lawsuit filed several years ago by a group of Wichita area parents which did affect several KSHSAA changes. I will have to research my records, however as I recall, the decision also clearly stated participation in KSHSAA sponsored activities was not a stucent's "RIGHT" but was a "PRIVILEGE"
My question is this for all those that make the highschool and kids wrestling rules. What kind of wrestling do they do in college.
Collegiate wrestling is folkstyle. I returned last night on a red eye flight from the NCAA Tournament held this past weekend in St. Louis and the FOLKSTYLE wrestling was incredible.
[/quote] Collegiate wrestling is folkstyle. I returned last night on a red eye flight from the NCAA Tournament held this past weekend in St. Louis and the FOLKSTYLE wrestling was incredible. [/quote]
The most important thing, I believe, is getting kids ready to be competitive high school wrestlers (Folkstlye). As I stated earlier, I am probably not helping my son progress in wrestling by not having him wrestle Freestyle/Greco during the summer. I still think that he will do well in high school, and that is our goal. These guys that wrestle in college, especially D1, they are a very special breed. I watched the NCAA Tournament finals when I got home yesterday (WOW!!!!!). After next weekend, my son will move on to Jr High track, soccer and baseball. He might go to a wrestling camp this summer, but other than that, wrestling begins again next fall.
Does anyone know why they made this rule?
Yes!
The rule is:
A student who is a member of a school athletic, scholars’ bowl or debate squad effective Tuesday following Labor Day through Friday preceding Memorial Day may not participate as a member of an outside team or as an independent competitor in the same sport, scholars’ bowl or debate activity.
Richard,
Just to clarify, only during that activity's "season". Wrestlers can compete in wrestling tournaments outside of the season. Actually they can compete up until they join the team. In other words they could wrestle in tournaments all the way up to New Year's or perhaps up to regionals if they have not joined their hs or ms team. I believe.
By the way, Tuff Hermreck, as of this evening, has not received any email, U.S. mail, or phone calls regarding support or suggestions for changes. Lets heat up the cell phones and fill up the email boxes!
Great posts keep them coming.
Ned Price
With response to Cokeley's comment about the "season". We wrestled and strongly support middle school wrestling. We chose to wrestle some kids club (Ks and Ok) tournaments prior to our middle school meets. Our middle school pratices started prior to Christmas break and our first meet wasn't until January 27th. However, the powers that be in our district informed us that our middle school season began the day practice started, not the day "we set foot on the middle school mat". Hope to get them (ad and administrators) to see the light and the grave error they are making. Anyway we can't actually compete with kids club until our season is done, sometimes the week prior to the Classic/Hays tourney or subs. (Think I posted about this on the high school forum.)
Our competition was good with the middle school program. Saw many kids we know from other kids clubs. Not all in our weight bracket, but know the names.
I don't think making the kids club folkstyle season shorter and therefore eliminating the kids who wrestle middle school, is necessarily the answer. I realize a lot of people are not affected by this, because they don't wrestle middle school, but there are many good wrestlers who do. (State qualifiers, placers and champs.) I don't know what the answer is. There is more to it than "well, just don't wrestle middle school". I have come to the conclusion that those that make the decisions (KSHSAA, local school admin., etc.) don't like change and probably never wrestled. (lol) It is just too complicated and easier to leave things as they are.
Cyclone, I agree with you totally! Making the kids club season shorter and eliminating the kids who wrestle middle school is not the answer. My son wrestled middle school as well and we are now on our way to kids state. I think it would be tragic to just adopt the attitude "well, just don't wrestle middle school." I think we need to push the KSHSAA to reexamine the rule regarding not being able to do both. That rule was put into effect well over 30 years ago! I venture to say that things are different now and possibly the reason it was made, may not be as big a concern now. I know the rule applies to other sports as well. I'm sure swimmers would like the rule changed as well.
I think you are right about about the KSHSAA not liking change. I made a call to get a little clarification on why the rule exists. I could tell during my conversation that the attitude towards change is not favorable!
KSHSAA is going to have to been informed by your Superintendent (or a high level representative from your school system) that you want this rule changed. They DO NOT listen to parents. Your school official needs to lead into the conversation by reminding Rick Bowden and Gary Musselman that they work for the schools, not the reverse. Change can be made but you will have to move quickly to get several high level school officials to more or less ambush KSHSAA. The easier alternative would be for all MS or JH wrestling programs to drop out of KSHSAA. Rick Bowden told me that a great number of MS and JH schools ARE NOT members of KSHSAA while nearly all high schools are.
Next time you call them you might get a more friendly response if you mention my name to lead into the conversation!
By the way, my proposal accomodates MS and JH seasons (unless there is a JH/MS league or group where the season goes beyond the HS season. In that case that group REALLY needs to change their season!). I DO NOT want to eliminate the participation of JH and MS wrestlers. I DO believe we need both but I also strongly advocate gymmom's position of taking the chains off of the athletes to let them do both at the same time. It has been my experience that MOST of these programs DO NOT have weekend events or VERY FEW weekend events. I have never understood the harm in letting a wrestler do both even in HS. Many, many other states take a much more relaxed position on controlling their athletes. I really fail to see the justification for such strict control.
Every year we discuss shortening the season but you will hurt the MS seasons. Through out the state the MS season lasts from Mid November until Mid March. We have several clubs in our district that finish up their MS season the weekend before Sub Districts. In the past they went until the week of District but finally moved their season up one week. Our MS starts in Mid November and finishes the first week of March. This is what has kept us from shortening the season at the end. Will has many good suggestions, most of which have been discussed in the past. Until we can get the MS seasons all the same it will hurt the MS'ers. I can not see the KSHSAA changing any of the MS seasons. One of the problems with moving the State tournament every year is that when it is moved from one location they will fill the weekend with another venue and most likely keep it every year. We use to hold the State tournament in Salina. As soon as we left for the Expocentre they brought in the Womens college basketball finals.
I say leave it the way it is. There is about 12 weeks of regular season. Our family likes to take at least one weekend a month off. I assume most familys take at least a few weekends off or more. This leaves maximum of approx 8 regular season tournaments. I dont want it cut down to four. We love the sport.
Lance,
You have to think outside of the box! You contract the venues three or four years in advance so that the venue is not full. The cities want our tournament and with the economy the way it is now and for the next few years they will be begging for events! Move the 2nd state tournament to the next weekend then so you do not miss any middle schoolers. My plan does NOT harm the opportunity for the middle school wrestlers. I have to ask though, What in the heck is a league doing having their MS or JH season running PAST the HS season??? That seems crazy. They can move that withouth KSHSAA doing anything. Leaving it the same should not be an option. If you are not changing you are not improving. If you are not improving then you are becoming obsolete. We need to change this now while the numbers are only slightly falling off. It will be too late if we wait until they dramatically drop off. We have to put our tournament in a position to grow. It cannot grow today so please Lance, think outside of the box. Go to your league, which might be the ONLY league of MS/JH wrestlers that goes beyond the end of HS season and beckon them to change so we can move the state tournament series.
Michael,
No one is shortening the season! This plan advocates moving the state tournament series. That will NOT prevent clubs from having kids tournaments or you from taking your little guys all over to wrestle in other events. I know you are going to Brute and that you go to other events outside of Kansas. If you want more wrestling it is out there for you. This is about addressing the majority of others who DO NOT want to keep wrestling until the end of March for state. This plan does NOT prevent YOU from wrestling all year round if you want.
Will,
I'm sure you know that if you move the state tournament series, it will effectively end kids club tournaments for that year. There is currently nothing to prevent a kids club from having a folkstyle tournament in April, but you know that it would not draw enough competitors to be worthwhile.
Has anyone actually done a poll to see what people actually want? I'm not sure there is a clear majority on when people want wrestling to be over.
Let's face it most clubs really don't get started until after Christmas (tournaments) some clubs have scheduled tournaments in December but that's not really when most are competing.
I second the motion to Michael's "leave it alone". We also decide when we want a weekend break but to have the State series done before the HS wrestling finals is just a cop out. Sure we like supporting the Labette Cardinals and they finish up the 3rd week in February @ Nationals. I can also state that we've "been there" in having a novice wrestler and a HS wrestler. Of course the HS wrestler and then onto college always came first.
We also play soccer in the fall and spring and wrestle a little in the summer.
My son wrestles for Maize Middle School and they finished their season the weekend prior to subdistricts. I don't want the season moved earlier. I would just like them to be able to do both at the same time!
Will,
I think you skipped over the part where our (McPherson) MS season is over the last week of January. I agree with you. We talked to our MS to get them to end the season one week earlier to allow our wrestlers to participate in the Salina tournament. (Then we only had one wrestler enter.) It would be nice to have all the Middle Schools have the same season. What some towns do is allow the students to do both basketball and wrestling. Some towns have to do that to fill both teams. I was just pointing out what we run into with some of the MS seasons in our district (District III not the school district). We use to have to allow walk-ons at State because some schools hadn't finished their season. Our school competes against schools that start their season at different times through our MS season. I am willing to "think outside the box." As I stated earlier you have some great ideas. I agree with gymmom, I wish KSHSAA would allow our kids to participate in club events as long as it doesn't interfere with the school program. Keep the ideas coming. We do need to do something!
Allowing kids to wrestle both middle school and club is what really needs to happen, so that the kids that need some stiffer competition can go and find it somewhere. If they are getting what they need in MS, don't bother with club wrestling u ntil after MS season is over.
And an early March finish to the season would be fine by me as well. Plenty of opportunities after that to wrestle as well: Freestyle, Greco, Reno, Iowa, etc.
Doug
There will be a meeting of the board to decide where next year's state tournament will be and how long we will enter into a contract for that venue. I STRONGLY support a one year deal. It would be nice to go to Wichita once since we have been in Topeka for 23 straight years. Surely the Wichita folks can practically give it away for one year to impress the wrestlers and parents with what they can do in hopes we would vote to come back. We absolutely MUST have a one year agreement this year to position our organization for finding a better way to manage our season, structure our events, and grow our membership. Please contact your district director or sub district director and encourage them to vote for a one year contract to allow us to explore, in depth, the various options for improvment. Better yet, come to the meeting on Sunday, April 19th, in Salina. It will be your best way to find out what the proposals looked like and how it was voted on. I think a room full or parents who support changing the season would definitely open some eyes!
In our area MS wrestling begins just as our MS football season ends. The boys/girls wrestle while MS Girls Volleyball is in session. Then it goes into both boys and girls Basketball sessions. So...our MS kids are up and going by December. Didn't realize that for some the MS season doesn't end until March! Our High Schoolers and MS wrestlers are only wrestling for about 2 weeks together. And as for missing out on watching High School State Wrestling...we just take that weekend off...and miss Liberty Nationals
Next year will bring both a jr high and hs wrestler to our home. So our season will be extended. I would like to see my boys be able to wrestle a national tournament during their school seasons! That would be wonderful!
I am not for eliminating the 16u....as next year will be my older sons last year for Kids State and he would be pretty upset at the last chance at a winning that venue. So I'll be petty and not support that one!
We aren't finished for this season either as we'll be headed to Brute this weekend. And the boys are already talking about Freesytlye and Greco...and the Sunflower State Games in July!
What I like about wrestling is that you can choose how long and how difficult your season will be. If you and your kids are burnt out...take a weekend off.
Sorry for the long post! But I do think more parents should attend the meeting on April 19 as suggested by Will. If you feel strongly about change then be there and speak your peace and maybe we'll see a few improvements in the years to come!
Keep the High School kids and leave the season the way it is. High School kids in the practice room really increase the intensity. You wil see the 12U's and young 14U's really step it up to impress the High School kids. Letting them practice together is something special that is not allowed by KSHSAA. Because of this any change that eliminates the High School kids from participating in the kids state series, I would be against. But, Middle School needs to change. It all needs to be in the Fall, it needs to be long enough for the kids to actually learn something, and it needs to allow participation in Kids Club wrestling also. And, I see on the internet, some states actually have a Middle School State - why can't Kansas.
I agree with wrstlmom1970. Clearly "Cokeley" has no idea what it is like to live in western Kansas. DeSoto is proximate to all of the events in the eastern part of the state. What about us out here? Maybe "Cokeley" should take a trip out west sometime and realize wrestling isn't just an eastern Kansas exercise! The west side is the best side.
Mr. Take a Whiz,
Clearly "Cokeley" has a VERY good idea of what it IS like to live in Western Kansas. I lived in Liberal from 1963-1981 and went to Fort Hays from 1981-85 back to Liberal for two years. You are going to have to go to Elkhart to get any farther west.
Since I am proposing to move the Kids State tournament to Wichita, Salina, or Hays by using a split format I am completely in touch with what is needed to be fair to those out west. Change is rarely received with open arms but often necessary. Without change there can be no improvement.
Well, the "west side" is the best in 3,2,1A, but overall, my vote for "best" is the Wichita Area.
XGHSWC. Isn't that what Wichita State had on their basketball shorts in the 80's?
Why would I follow that or even care? I mean come on, Wichita State Basketball? So, I do not know what you are referring to MrWizzzard. That is the first that I have heard of that.
Now Wichita State Wrestling, I will definately follow that.
There is never enough support from all of the clubs at the State Body Meeting, just from the cities around there. People need to get together from other clubs and carpool to Salina.
Most middle schools don't even start until football has been over for at least a month. If we could get them to understand that 98% of the wrestlers don't play BB, then starting the wrestling season earlier wouldn't be a problem. I agree that 6&u (the biggest division) should be added to kids state, and the kids need to have an opportunity to support the High School and college championships, so maybe another State Tourney for 14&16 is realistic. The only problem with this is the young kids in the programs really enjoy the older kids in the room at the end of the year, but we have to give up something to make gains.
As far as where State is wrestled at, let's take the political votes out of it and put it in the kids hands, the District that places the most kids at State the year before, has bids on State next year!
Mr. Wizzard, please explain what you are talking about. I have been following this thread from the beginning and I do not believe the intent was to make it an East vs. West debate, it was about how to improve wrestling. If you have specific points about how some of the recommendations will not work in the West, please explain to us in the East and let us know why. Lets try to build a discussion and not just attack.
And, Mr. Wells, we start wrestling about 1 day after football ends and then we start Kids Club a week after Middle School Wrestling ends. Works perfert - based upon the rules as they are. That is what needs to be changed - the rules that stop Middle School wrestlers from participating in kids club.
leave it all as is, but add 6&u to state.. and start the state tournament on friday .. 6, 8, 10 unders wrestle friday 12, 14 , 16 under wrestle saturdays then everyones finals on sunday,,
Mr. Johnson,
That's part of the problem. Not all Middle School programs are on that schedule, but they all should be on the same. They all should follow a week after football and end that would make them all end the same time.
leave it all as is, but add 6&u to state.. and start the state tournament on friday .. 6, 8, 10 unders wrestle friday 12, 14 , 16 under wrestle saturdays then everyones finals on sunday,,
Which would be a great idea, except now you are asking a whole lot of people to take another extra day off from work, and for the 6,8,10 under kids and parents to spend an entire day of doing nothing, not to mention paying for another nights hotel/or gas to drive another round trip.
Case in point.... not going to work.
another problem with adding six year olds would be space cuz if u look at the membership for kids there are more 6 year olds than nething so that would demand more mats and lets be honest the 8 ,10, and 12 and unders would lose mat space and possibly 14 and 16 and unders and they need all the space they can get...tho it might seem like a great idea i think there are more problems than rewards
Went I put up my first post on this I was thinking as the father of a 13 year old. But, now thinking back and looking at the posts above, maybe we should end the 8U and 10U early. I have seen alot of 6U and 8U kids burn out by the middle of February. Yes, I know there are exceptions. There always will be, but for the majority of the young ones the season is too long. And, even if their season ended in February, they can still practice and start Freestyle/Greco. Plus they can hit some of the national tournaments we cannot hit because we are in our state series. If their season ended the week before High School Regionals, you would have room to add 6U to State. Then could have the 12 and 14's all on full size mats at their state. Maybe an 18U to try and get a version of Grand State. Plus this would solve the Wichita/Topeka debate - one in each city. The young kids would get to watch High School State. This is the only way to add 6U's to state. Otherwise there is no space.
what about another venue in the same city whereever state is???
just a thought! dont know the solution but theres a oppurtunity!! there is good and bad in alot of the arguments, but it would be nice to have the older kids there to cheer on the younger kids!! it at least really means something to my 6 yo! and vice versa cus my son loves chering for his older buddies!!!!!
and then bring all the kids together for the parade and finals matches!! sorry i hit submit before i finished!!!
leave it all as is, but add 6&u to state.. and start the state tournament on friday .. 6, 8, 10 unders wrestle friday 12, 14 , 16 under wrestle saturdays then everyones finals on sunday,,
Which would be a great idea, except now you are asking a whole lot of people to take another extra day off from work, and for the 6,8,10 under kids and parents to spend an entire day of doing nothing, not to mention paying for another nights hotel/or gas to drive another round trip.
Case in point.... not going to work.
it happens at brute and that goes on from thursday
It wont work to split them up cause if you are like me, you would have two kids wrestling at different places and I really like to see both my boys wrestle. It is just hard to come up with something that would work. But I would really like to see 6 and under at state.
Don't compare Brute to State, that is why state had 16 man brackets, while many of the brackets for the young kids (8th grade and below) were 8 or less.
true,,, about brute,, i did just look that up and all them 1st and 2nd graders were 6manand 4man,, why is that,? there are so many wrestlersin that age group here in kansas, why wouldnt more turn out?
Because the season ran so long...and now they are taking a break. Had the season for those kids been over in February, alot of them could have wrestled casually the last 2 months and may have been all excited to go to Brute or any other of the upcoming tournaments.
Was I attacking someone? Kind of thin skin around here it looks like. Just asking a question. Sorry I bothered you guys. Where I'm from, we get along with basketball players. It later occurred to me that I was thinking about MTXE which means "mental toughness extra effort" which was on the WSU uniforms. I guess I could see where that would rub some people the wrong way. Or not.
Beeson,
Could be everyone is broke from the long weekend at Topeka. I know we are tapped out fiscally, would have loved to go though. This tournament should get our support more or possibly moved so that it could be supported better. Random thoughts, Hossus
This tournament should get our support more or POSSIBLY MOVED so that it could be supported better. Random thoughts, Hossus
Let's move the state tournament so we are on the same schedule as most of the country. Then we can support this tournament, High School State, Big 12, and NCAA's.
Would have loved to gone to brute, but it would have cost us about 400-500 dollars. Just couldn't afford it right now. But we would have loved to gone.
This tournament should get our support more or POSSIBLY MOVED so that it could be supported better. Random thoughts, Hossus
Let's move the state tournament so we are on the same schedule as most of the country. Then we can support this tournament, High School State, Big 12, and NCAA's.
Chad, someone will just fill the voids after the kids state tournament if it's moved up. The first weekend after the new date you will have the proverbial "Hardluck State Tournament". Then the following weeks you would have the clubs who got shut out of hosting a tournament due to the condensed season and fighting for open dates. And after all of the new season and The State Tournament, people would still attend these after season tournaments if offered.
I say continue to do as you and others have done and that is allow each and every person, family and club to make their own decisions about when to take off and even when to end their season. I will as I have always done continue to take the weekend of high school state off regardless of what tournaments are available. I would as I have posted before support a moratorium on tournaments statewide the weekend of high school state, but realistically if we did that, we would still have a bunch of people traveling out of state to some tournament if one was available.
My concern is not how long others wrestle. You are right, tournaments will continue after state and people will wrestle at them. My 2 concerns are not having the choice to attend the NCAA's, and having to wrestle into March. The NCAA's should be the goal for our wrestlers but they can not attend them and claim a state tital. Have 6,8,10 and 12U State Tournament the weekend before High School State. The weekend after High School State have 14U and 18U open state tournament, kind of like a Grand State. There are usually not enough wrestlers in these age groups to have qualifiers anyways. You may end up with a 32 man bracket here and there, but that would be ok. For those who want to keep wrestling, good luck and have fun. For those who don't, the season can be over.
Don't compare Brute to State, that is why state had 16 man brackets, while many of the brackets for the young kids (8th grade and below) were 8 or less.
Agree somewhat.
My son's bracket had 23 wrestlers from 9 different states and was quite competitive as many of the high school brackets were. Yes, most of the "kid's brackets" were somewhat "weak". Some of the HS brackets were as well I realize. My opinion is that only the high schoolers should compete for "All-American" status. I do not think that it is "right" for an elementary kid to be declared an All-American. Don't hate on me though as this is my opinion.
Was I attacking someone? Kind of thin skin around here it looks like. Just asking a question. Sorry I bothered you guys. Where I'm from, we get along with basketball players. It later occurred to me that I was thinking about MTXE which means "mental toughness extra effort" which was on the WSU uniforms. I guess I could see where that would rub some people the wrong way. Or not.
Or not.
I get along just fine with all athletes and if I don't, it is not because they are basketball players. The BB reference did not rub me wrong. I just had no idea what you were referring to as I do not follow WSU BB. I would however follow WSU Wrestling if there was such a thing.
Now your "West is the Best" thing does rub wrong. That was the case twenty years ago but is simple not the case now. If you truly believe that, then you are living in the past and are in denial. This is also comparable to the small class is better than big class thing which also applied twenty years ago but is not the case today. I am not hating so don't hate but I am sure you will anyway or at least someone will. I am just tired of the West/Small School Class is the best thing.
My opinion is that only the high schoolers should compete for "All-American" status. I do not think that it is "right" for an elementary kid to be declared an All-American.
XGHSWC, I know alot of the kids that work alot harder than the high schoolers do. But they shouldn't be able to claim AA status?
Wow. that's a brave statement.
Jerry, put down the Marlboro, or whatever you are smoking, and look at it the way he probably meant to say it:
Some kids showed up at Brute and were already All Americans because they only had 4-8 kids in their brackets. When a kid can't qualify for Ks state, yet can win a "national" tourney, should it really be called a national tourney? Wichita Classic has out of state kids, but noone calls their kid an all american for placing there.
The tourneys that I call national level events are the Cliff Keen kickoff, Tulsa Nationals, Reno, Iowa Folkstyle Nationals, USJOC. I'm leaving some out for sure, but as examples these are the biggies. I think it is a disservice to the kids that have made the podium at these types of tourneys, to give All American status to kids that place at Brute by not winning a match.
It is nothing but GOOD for the kids to be on the mat, no matter the tourney, but I think the hype needs to be scaled back until they move it to a weekend that doesn't have Iowa folkstyle nationals and Reno Worlds going on at the same time.
See you at Andover Central tonight.
Doug
My opinion is that only the high schoolers should compete for "All-American" status. I do not think that it is "right" for an elementary kid to be declared an All-American.
XGHSWC, I know alot of the kids that work alot harder than the high schoolers do. But they shouldn't be able to claim AA status?
Wow. that's a brave statement.
Wrong Jerry, totally wrong. It is not a brave statement at all. I said what it was, my opinion, and I also said no hating but you had to jump all over it. Yes these kids work hard. My son worked very hard when he was that young also, but I guarantee that he works alot harder now that he is in high school. I just think that it is kind of silly to declare an elementary kid "All-American", especially in a 4/6/8 man bracket. I would have thought that it was very silly if my son was declared an "All-American" when he was in elementary school as well. Why can't they just compete for competition sake. Again, no hating intended but you are welcome to hate on me if it please you.
Not hating at all just stating a fact. ALOT of these kids work their tales off from Sept. thru March and if it's a legit national tourny then what should the problem be. I'm not counting Brute i'm talking about Tulsa/folkstyle nationals. If they work hard enough to place then why say it's silly to call them AA. By the way, you know my name. Now who are you?
Hey you guys are hijacking my thread! This isn't about ALL AMERICANS it is about a one year contract so that we can make some changes to allow our Kids State Tournament to grow. Show up in Salina on April 19th!!
I prefer to remain anonymous because I would rather have people focus on my comments and not on me. I can tell you that you know me and hopefully you would consider me a "friend" which I would consider you. If I told you my name, you may not be my "friend" anymore which would be sad.
And now, because I do not want to "hijack" Cokeley's thread, all of my comments with regard to Brute/Improvements/"All-Americans" will appear on the Brute Improvements thread. Look for them to appear soon as I am sure they will be "controversial".
That is the "Disappointed in Brute" thread.