First of all I would like to express my dissapointment in the director of the Kansas kids state touranment this weekend. I seems like every year I get extremely excited to head to Topeka and watch these kids who have worked so hard to get there. But, every year I leave with a bad taste left from the Team HARD KNOX coaches. Why the refrees, security, and director of this touranment puts up with these coaches amazes me.
Please don't take this wrong, the Team HARD KNOX kids are extremely talents( No one's going to argue that Matt Reed isn't one of the best talented wrestlers out there). If Kansas wants to add some integerity to this sport, then throw these coaches(NOT THE KIDS) out as soon as they start problems(which is every year at state).
I would like to know what others think on this issue. By the way, I talked to the head of security Saturday and they said that they would love to throw this teams coaches out when they start trouble, but it's up to the director of the touranment.
You're kind of a coward to call someone out and not sign your name aren't you. why? are you sceeered.
I'm a litter confused by your comment. Are you implying that you want my firt name J.
mines Jerry and most people know me.
Jerry Dale
Ok, mine is Mike and most people don't know me. New as of today. I'm not posting here to learn names. Just giving a opinion on something I've seen for the last two years at a kids event that I don't see on the highschool or college level.
I don't expect Christmas cards next year for giving my first name, but just some honest opinions. If that's not possibly than I'm sorry I've wasting your and mine time.
I get so tired of seeing these posts. If you don't know who specifically you're talking about , why come on here and make generalizations about a whole group of coaches? There are many people that coach for this club that have never been kicked out of a tournament myself included.
Also it's a rule of this forum I believe that if you wanna post deregatory comments about people you should at least have the decency to leave your name.
On a side note Jerry tell Jared congrats on his state championship!And "mvukas" if you really wanna see a coach acting out watch for that nutjob from team x-treme!!
Jason Murdock
nice Jason. I'll tell Jared he's already getting a big head.
Nutjob
Jerry Dale
Team Xtreme
Mike:
There are sportsmanship issues with numerous clubs.
In my twenty plus years in the sport Coach Knox and Coach Taylor, Sr. and I have had some highly spirited debates while mat side. NEVER have I witnessed Coach Knox, Coach Taylor, or his sons behave in the manner which you speak.
Let us not confuse poor sportsmanship on the part of individual fans with that of team leadership.
Coach Taylor and Coach Knox are aware of these issues and have been attempting and will continue to attempt to teach more appropriate sportsmanship.
While you may be unaware a TOHK fan was removed from the floor for his display of unsportsmanlike conduct.
I dont feel that it is just TOHK that does this as I seen it from other teams and coaches as well..I feel its just more noticed cause everyone expects it and looks for it out of TOHK..I have to say the way the coach from Boos school when Spangler and boo lost was not the way a coach of any team should act..Its about sportsmanship and is for the kids but if adults and coaches act this way then it only makes the kids feel they can act this way as well..Someone has to lose so why not give the one who won the credit where credit is due..I give all of the Great wrestlers who made it to State and the Finals rounds ALOT OF CREDIT Its a great honor to be there lets not forget we are all there for the same reason to support our children and teammates..I can understand fighting a call or questioning a ref for legit reasons but if you lost fair and square dont make the kid or situation worse by making a Scene..Tell the kids Good Job and go get them next year..My son really wanted a place this year..he said before we left momma I dont care if I have to stand on the floor I just want my picture taken..so when he lost on the 2nd day I was crushed, as was he..But he did his best and that is what matters..He has been wrestling 3 years and made it to state every year but he always loses his first 2 and done the first day well not this year he lost won lost but he made it to the 2nd day got to be with his friends from all over the state he has made the years he has wrestled..he got a new singlet and was the escort for Steve Kyler at the senior classic and on the way home he said mom That was the Best Weekend It was fun I cant wait for next year..Now thats what its all about..
Richard,
You are right. Anyone can buy a coaches pass and be on the floor. To assume that everyone on the floor represent HARD KNOX coaching was wrong. First I'd like me apologize to the HARD KNOX coaches if this is the case.
Mike Vukas
If anybody has that big of a problem with them, then I insist that you avoid any tournaments they may be at. However, do that at your own risk because they're always going to be bringing tons of kids to state and always competing for the team title. Otherwise you're just gonna have to deal with it.
One thing you may do is pay more attention to their talented wrestlers instead of waiting for one of their coaches to do something. Their kids are talented and even more important they are made for the next level. I'd go out on a limb to say they have more college wrestlers out of their club right now than any other club in the state and I don't see that changing any time soon either. I know that without T.O.H.K. I likely wouldn't be anywhere close to the level I'm at today in my wrestling ability.
Curtis
I have to agree with you. T.O.H.K. has a bad rep but they are great coaches that produce some outstanding talent. Another amazing thing about them is that they are in it for their kids and willing to fight for what they feel is right. No, they are not always right but who is. Personally I would like to see more coaches have the nerve to fight for their kids instead of just saying, "Oh well, there's always next year." To often I see coaches just walk off after a match and never say anything to the kids, good or bad. This can quickly put off the feeling that it is just another job for the coach and not a passion. I believe that the actions of T.O.H.K. and the many other caoches that argue for the sake of their kid are driven by passion for the sport and the kids.
I agree, there are many very talented kids that come out of their club. I guess that I have seen the "bad" side of some of the coaches. Yes, I know that not all of their coaches argue and make a scene, but it does only take one to do damage to their reputation. Yes, I have seen other coaches from other teams lose their cool and make a scene too. I just think that some of them are rude. I congratulate them on the many kids who took state. I hope my opinion of them change next year.
To any and all that have posted on this topic. I do know ALL of the TOHK coaches personally. I know Mike Vukas personally. In fact I know most who have posted personally so here is what I can tell you: Much of what has been said on this post is the truth. Coach Knox and Coach Taylor Sr. do NOT typically engage in the intimidation warfare. In defense of Mr. Vukas's comments. When the entire section supporting this team boos a competitor and then continues to throw objects at the official what else do you do? If you are new to the game you have to generalize. Did any other team make themselves overly apparent in such a negative way during the tournament? I am no angel to the officials either but I promise that I have gotten by with WAY, WAY less than what happened this weekend. In fact, Jerry Dale has been asked to leave for doing nothing more than being irritating. I am not going to go into the name the culprits as they know who they are or have been. I put up with the remarks and attempted intimidation for years. It has passed and I am thankful for this but I know it has continued to happen to others. I wish it would stop because I do know that all of them want the best for their wrestlers but in the end we all do and not all of us lose control of our actions and words. The bottom line is two sets of rules have evolved over the years. One set for TOHK and another for the rest of us. If the same set were applied uniformly to all of us this post we not be necessary.
Danny, Sean, Ulysses, Charlie, Quincy, Kenny, and the rest of the staff are assets to our organization but they could be so much more valuable if they would accept the fact that bad calls happen and that it is okay to lose even if it was because of a bad call. I know this is hard to accept but the good calls will NOT come if you make such a huge deal out of the bad ones. I know it is hard because I refuse to accept it so I try to stay out of the corner as much as possible.
I know Mike Vukas too. He is not a coward and he doesn't have anything against a single person involved with TOHK. I doubt either of his boys have ever wrestled a TOHK wrestler. He is new to the sport and not used to seeing a group (again, generally speaking) go so over the top. He just wrote down on this forum what many others have been afraid to say or write in the past.
Until next year...
2BENTLEYMOM, WERE YOU MATSIDE WHEN THE BOOS' SCHOOL COACH WAS, (IN YOUR OPINION) NOT ACTING LIKE ANY COACH SHOULD ACT??? YOUR QUOTE IS THIS: "I can understand fighting a call or questioning a ref for legit reasons but if you lost fair and square dont make the kid or situation worse by making a Scene" If you are unaware and obviously you are, the coaches job is to argue bad calls with the ref. That is exactly what they were doing. In fact Mrs. Clueless, during Spangler's match, there was a coach from another club arguing with the ref as well so something tells me that they must have been right. Spangler is my son and I will say I am glad that we have the coaches that we do and aren't afraid to go to battle for each and everyone of our clubs wrestlers. You are right in saying it is about the kids but when my son loses because a ref blows a call then we have every right to be upset and so does my son.
Like our state shirt said, "If getting there was your goal great job, WE CAME FOR THE HARDWARE."
Our coaches don't prepare our kids to qualify, they prepare them to be champions.
Traci Spangler
You are right in saying it is about the kids but when my son loses because a ref blows a call then we have every right to be upset and so does my son.
So just how upset do you or others have a "right" to get over a bad or blown call? I think that is the question that needs to be answered here.
I too would much rather have a coach with some passion for the sport and kids, versus one that never questions a "bad" call.
I'm saying that we have a right to be mad. We have the right to argue a call. Plain and simple is that to hard to understand? I know they didn't curse at the ref they did their job and unfortunately it didn't turn out in our favor.
Traci Spangler
I'm saying that we have a right to be mad. We have the right to argue a call.
Ok, we established that now! So, if I have a tendency to curse when I get "mad", (which I do), is that acceptable?
I have said before and will say again...
The amount of tallent that comes out of that club is amazing! The kids are at the top level and that is due to very tough & knowledgable coaches.
BUT, when the FANS and coaches steal the spotlight from their wrestlers by their negative actions. That is the real crime.
Example:
Park City, Maybe 10 seconds left!
TOHK wrestler down by 2 and on top. He optional starts, slips to the front, and bulldogs the kid to his back and wins by one . Standard TOHK move! EXCELLENT TRAINING & COACHING!
Then for Knox & DeShayzer and their fans to stand there and point at, rub their eyes, and tease a young man for crying is UNCALLED FOR!
All the attention is taken away from the excellent come back and put in a negative light onto the club.
Then when someone says something to them they attack that person as well.
This is why there is such a bad image for this club.
Everything in life needs villans & HEROS!
But there is no greater story then when the villan becomes the hero!
TOHK...
I DARE YOU TO BE GREAT!
Whew! You need to calm down Deucesmom! My son has lost a many a match to bad calls, or points that weren't given to him that was supposed to be. Your son lost, deal with it period. There is always next year and the year after that. Wrestling is not your life! It's in the past, move on. Yes, I get mad too when my son loses to a bad call. I walk it off, before I say something I would regret. All I tell him is that it was not his fault. If he gave me 100% out on the mat and he had fun, then that is waht counts.
My son has lost many matches because the ref hasn't given him the points or calls that maybe they should have but he is the wrestler and not the ref. I just want him to wrestle his best and make sure that when he does what needs to be done he will be given the points.
You will always have judgement calls in this sport. I believe you should ask if a kid doesn't get the points or calls but you should also take what the ref says into consideration and show good sportsmanship and leadership even if you don't like their answer.
I feel that this is just part of the sport.
Oh BTW....
BLT is...
Big Lance Tracy
Team Haysville
AND...
If anyone needs an example of a HERO...
Coach Craig from Bishop Carroll!!
I have seen that guy get after a ref with the best of them but he always has respect for EVERYONE touched by our sport!
Coach Craig,
From myself, Team Haysville, and MANY MANY OTHERS
YOU ARE A HERO TO THIS SPORT AND YOU WILL BE MISSED!
I THINK THE THOK COACHES SHOW THERE PASSION FOR THE SPORT AND I THINK IT IS PASSED ON TO THERE KIDS. WHAT KID OUT THERE LIKES TO WRESTLE A HARD KNOX KID THEY KNOW THE WILL BE IN FOR A GREAT FIGHT. AND THAT IS WHAT DRIVES MY SON. THAT IS WHY WE WILL DRIVE 70 MILES THIS SUMMER TO WORK OUT WITH THEM. YOU MIGHT DISLIKE THE COACHES BUT YOU HAFT TO ENJOY WATCHING THERE KIDS I KNOW I DO
We all will miss Coach Craig and should try to set an example, for the kids, like he does for the sport every year. Don't forget to let us know when your tournament is in Oklahoma so we can try to come visit.
Brian Wells
I don't like Coach Craig because he dresses nicer than me.
I don't like Coach Craig because he dresses nicer than me.
Yeah...what a show off!!! Proves that I don't get paid nearly as much as him, maybe I should start coaching over there!
How did this topic get my name in it??? Thank you Mr. Tracy for the nice words...Brian I hope that wherever I coach we have a tournament so you can bring your club.
Coach Eck....learn to drive...and get a haircut.
I will post some comments on another topic. As for this...Show up to wrestle...prepare...and let the rest pass you by...I really don't care who is in the opposite corner. It could be Ray Kramer or Doug Eck or the whole TOHK section of fans...I want to win. Do what you want on your side...i don't care...I'll be happy if we win and if we loose we will come back and get after you again and again and again and again untill we find a way to win....either now or 5 years from now.
Honestly...I really don't care what TOHK or any other team does in there corner...it's not my problem and I won't make it mine....Unless you are Ray Kramer Sr...
For one I am pissed that we finished behind them...I wanted to catch them...and the Brawlers this weekend...fell short a couple of points, but as always my boys came to win. It was not our year to do this. Look out for Coach Dan next year!!! He has nicer hair than Doug and Jerry Dale.
Coach Craig Adams
Carroll Jr. Wrestling
I don't like Coach Craig because he dresses nicer than me.
Yeah...what a show off!!! Proves that I don't get paid nearly as much as him, maybe I should start coaching over there!
In the interest of full disclosure...Carroll Jr Wrestling pays me in suits and ties.
I really like (love) the TOHK coaches! Oh yeah I am one of them. (The Founder). This is really good, no one has gone overboard in their criticism of us. And if something postive can come out this, than that will be great. If I/we have offened you than I aplogize. You need to know that was not my intentions. Have you ever been at the bottom of hill and decide to climb it and after you almost get to the top you see a smowball coming down and seems to be getting bigger and bigger (and you just don't think it's fair) so with out thinking, you do what you think is the best and you fight against it. May be we over reacted or maybe not but just remenber if you are critercizing us make sure that you are not doing it yourself. Ignorance is like a baby is hasn't been taught yet. Do it in a gentle way and we will work on it. For the sake of the YOUTHS! Email me with suggestions be prepared on some things for a debate. teamofhardknox2sbcglobal.net
and that coach knox is what i call class!!! open for ctrique but respectful at the same time!!! and willing to debate and open for suggestions!!! that my friends is class!!!! i met some of ur coaches at ottawaand enjoyed talking to them!!! u got some tuff kids that i enjoy watching!!
Is it your feeling that we should never argue a call or decision? Because if it is, wow I feel sorry for anyone that you coach if you are in that position.
You are blowing this out of proportion in my opinion. I merely stated that we did not curse at the ref when we didn't agree with a call. If you do that and get awake with it, so be it. Who am I to judge how you handle yourself. I am talking about how our coaches and how they act. They acted in the best interest of each kid we had wrestling.
I agree there should be some type of consequences for that sorta behavior. And it's in the rule book. I can't go verbata(spelling) but if it's flagrant than follow the rule book.
i would like to say hard knox is a good club and they have good wrestler but this weekend i seen a coach not shake hands after the match which i thought was wrong. they are kids.
Charlie, my son spent the week with you, Ulysses, Matt and Brogen (sp) during the School Boy Duals last year. He thinks the world of you. I guess you are a little strick on the the kids and I guess Ulysses asked my son if he could trade w/ someone and stay in our room. In other words, my son became friends w/ your kids. But, over the last few years as I have been on this forum, your club gets alot of comments. Few of them favorable, except for the group of apologist from your home town. I know many are deserved, I was at free style state a few years ago. I understand about playing the underdog role to inspire your kids, but it has gone too far. Your kids are losing calls now because your club as a whole gets 'over the top' to be polite. Whole sections of fans cheer against kids from your club. Maybe some in your club get caught up in the 'us against the world' role that they don't understand this is not a way to prepare a kid for the real world. Really, its time for the USAW Kansas and/or the club to deal w/ this. This topic is getting old. And, it distacts from some great wrestling by your club. My son hope to make the School Boy Dual team again and he hopes you are there too.
John,
So my question is... Why do sections from other teams cheer against our kids? Wouldn't this be us against everybody else?
Debate it.
I would like to start the debate for $400 Coach...
Opening remark to the debate:
When you're on top everyone is out to knock you off.
Now the rebutle for $300 please Alex.
Are you referring to wrestling or real life?
This is our fuel of our fire for we were returning state champions.
No its not the same! Its self induced!
Its like trying to call in sick to work because you have a hangover. Your not ill! You did this to yourself because of your actions!
Alot of people cheer against you because they see/know/heard how members of your club have treated sooo many other people.
This whole you vs. everyone else is self induced and that will change once you change!
I just wanna say to Deucesmom, just ignore what Bently says since her son spit on the mat at district when he lost and the parents got mad a tthe coaches of their club which is why the club took away their privilege to be matside at state so she is just a blow hard that thinks she knows it all and many peple have left that club due to her and her husbands big mouths!!! And as far as the hard knox issue well i have a reason not to like them after hutch tournament 2 years ago but coach know did show total class on this issue so hey i will let bygones be bygones and let it all go!!! and go one step further and say you have a hell of a program and if we were closer i would be honored for you to teach my son!!!!!
Charlie, this don't debate why it happens, but how to stop it, that is what I thought you were asking for with your opening post. And, to Alex, whole sections did not cheer against Paola when they won, what was it, 3 state team championships. And, the last thing a discussion like this needs is a cheerleader!!! I have voiced my opinion and hope to see everyone at Brute this weekend.
But if I call in sick and the boss jumps to the conclusion that I have an hangover and it's really the boss is spreading me the sickness. Case and point after we won a match a table worker yells to the coaches "Idiots come sign your sheet". The U vs EVERYONE was not deserved. (what happened afterwards was reprimanded)
John give some solutions. Will be in Iowa this week. But hope to see you at FS/GR.
BLT, remember if your criticizing, make sure you are not doing it yourself. Do I need to bring up the Park City Classic?
Coach Knox,
I admire everything guys do for your boys, it goes so far beyond wrestling, So many people have no clue just how much you guys do for these kids. My son loves to watch every one of your boys wrestle, and was so excited when seandale was in his weight class this year, it has been a pleasure and honor to have my son wrestle your boys. Keep it up, I think you guys are wonderful. Look forward to seeing you guys next year.
But if I call in sick and the boss jumps to the conclusion that I have an hangover and it's really the boss is spreading me the sickness. Case and point after we won a match a table worker yells to the coaches "Idiots come sign your sheet". The U vs EVERYONE was not deserved. (what happened afterwards was reprimanded)
This is one of the things that drives me nuts. People talk all this crap about Hard Knox and how terrible they are, only to go on later and antagonize them, resulting in more bad situations. If everybody leaves them alone then they won't react.
Also, this isn't something new! This has been going on for years and years. I still remember when Michael Bradley beat Shawn Bunch in the state finals years ago and half of the arena booed him. Unfortunately I don't see this changing any time soon. Every sport needs that bad guy that people love to cheer against. Luckily Coach Knox knows how use that as fuel and get his kids thriving off of it and not let it affect them.
Coach Knox
I can and do respect good athletes - and your team does produce good athletes - In regards to all the comments that are being made - A quote from the movie "Remember the Titans" comes to mind....~Attitude reflects leadership~...and another statement that might be thought provoking, is....Leadership is not a position, it is an ACTION. TOHK is "your" club and ultimately it reflects YOU. Could it be the way your supporters and subordinates express themselves that cause TOHK such controversy? It appears that you are spending a lot of your energy to bring out the best in the youth that are under your direction. However, there are those that represent & support TOHK that allow their actions to speak diffently than what you appear to be trying to achieve. Then again .......maybe ... "Controversy and Attention" is what TOHK seeks. If so......excuse me for commenting, I will say this...I am tired of hearing about the behaviour of TOHK rather than the WRESTLING of your club.
I agree with birddog, you all have an awesome team great wrestlers, and good coaches. I don't know who threw the pop or water bottle out on the mat after that match but I do know it came from the TOHK section, that kind of stuff is very wrong. I do know that you can not control what people do in the stands, but guys let your wrestling do your talking and the coaches do the arguing, you guys are good, nothing will take that away...
BLT, remember if your criticizing, make sure you are not doing it yourself. Do I need to bring up the Park City Classic?
Oh Mr. Knox,
I am so glad you did bring up the classic.
That is where you and your supporters teased and harassed a young man for crying.
Then when I called you out on it you all wanted to "puff up your chest" and act like you wanted to get physical like a bunch of thugs would do!
Then the older lady that is always the loudest cheerer in your group flipped me off! Are you serious?
OR
Are you talking about when a ref physically assaulted one of our coaches and things got out of hand there?
If that's the case then you have me confused with that coach. And please don't try to play it off like you disagreed with what happened because that would be two faced. It was TOHK coaches that were supporting that coach and his action and even trying to play peace keeper. LOL!
So what part of the Classic would you like to talk about?
Just as a point of reference, I was just kidding in my post...
BLT, is the house you come from clean (perfect)? Be honest. The first I ever remenber of you is this week at state when I asked you, do you know what Oscar means. Don't you remenber? I asked your coach who is BLT? And you said it means; run out of bounds. I said it a code for trouble. Next year trouble will be code for double leg. Just to keep you guessing. Look I know we got some work to do and with good solutions, your support, and most of prayer we will get better. Accountabilty, responsibilty are signs of maturity. BLT to out work me your going to have to bring a lunch box and a sleeping bag. Any other things towards me email or call me. I am done with you on this website.
Coach Knox,
No one (or club) is perfect.
I want to extend an apology to YOU! I'm sorry. After talking to some of the other people I realize
it was not YOU at mat side at Park City. It was another one of your coaches and I do believe Mr. DeShayzer.
I wish you and your very talented club the best of luck. I know that when the day comes that everyone in the arena is cheering FOR TOHK, the sport will be in a much place. You don't have to be the bad guys. With the talent that you guy develope each and EVERY year, there is no reason you shouldn't be one of the crown jewels. I mean look what you have done for Heights. They don't have the rep that TOHK has. I agree that they were the underdog vs. Bishop Carrol this year but those that know the sport could smell it in the air.
Again, good luck to you!
BTW...
I pack a pretty big lunch!
See you next year!
I dont know any one from TOHK. I have talked to coach Knox as we were looking at brackets one time. To all the people complaning about them maybe you should quit boooing thier wrestlers. This is somthing YOU can do to help. How would you feel if someone boooed your kid after they won. If it happend to me I would be very angry. Disrespecting some ones kid is the fastest & most efficient way to piss a parent or coach off. This disrespect is fueling the problems you are complaning about. If some one disrespects my kid you will see behavior from me that you may not consider normal.
I have to agree with Mr. Luellen, some of the shtick from some of the TOHK coaches gets old & tired, but what I thought was more offensive was the large applause when a TOHK kid lost. That happened multiple times.
In response to Michel Luellen's post.....
Since this weekend I have had it put on my heart to post regarding the booing. This morning I prayed on whether or not to go through with it and then I opened this post and read Michaels comment. This is exactly what I felt led to write about.
I have to say I was so proud to be part of USA wrestling this weekend when the mats were crowded with people praying before the matches began. Only in Kansas!! I was overwhelmed. But on the flipside, I was ashamed to be part of it when all the booing against TOHK began. I am reading both sides of the arguement about booing, those that say that TOHK get what they deserve and then the posts like michaels. If we truly are the christians that we demonstrated through our opening prayer, we know what the bible teaches and it is not "Do unto others as they have done unto you",(if in fact, they've done anything to you at all) it is "Do unto others as you would have others do unto you". This means it has to end somewhere. We have to start by being the example. No one changes through hate. And the sad part is that most people are just jumping on the bandwagon! Hate is contagious. I saw this from the section I was sitting in. There were guests in our section, kids, clapping and joining in because hate is just that contagious. What are we teaching our kids? Wouldn't it be great if love were that contagious? It can be, but it is just not the natural thing to do. It takes practice, it takes going against what everyone else is doing. It takes character. It takes Christs true presence in your life.
From the first booing, I thought about the poor kids on the mat who have to feel like everyone in the place is against them. Even if the coaches can teach the kids to fuel off this anger, in working with children anyone knows how tender an ego is. If we are taught to react to hate, what does that develop? MORE HATE! The greatest commandment is to love. If we cannot do this for the team at least we could do it for the child. A child taught through love is going to turn out much better than one taught to fuel from hate, even if they do win wrestling matches.
Bottom line, the booing is ridiculous, destructive and senseless. What if it was your kid being booed? Could anything good come from it?
I'm off my soapbox. Let the persecution begin.....
Connie Weiss, RWC
I am in no way condoning the booing that went on. It's a kids tournament, but maybe you should look at it like this. Everyone HATES a winner and TOHK puts out winners. I think one of their kids might be pound for pound the toughest kid in the state in Brogan H. Anytime you have a team that consistently puts out winner some people will stoop low enough to boo when they win whether they deserve any of it or not. Look at high school in the 80's and 90's Ark City and Kapuan were booed then Carroll and Goddard. I still don't think it's right it's just the way some people are. People are on here bashing TOHK but then they boo. Sounds the same to me.
I could not agree with you more!!! The booing breaks my heart as a mother and just a descent person! I can not imagine how that would make me feel if it were my kid. I've never been in a fight in my life but I'd be ready to throw down at that point. Of course, I wouldn't but that is what I would feel like doing and I'm sure that is what the TOHK team felt like as well. What are you people thinking??? Anyone who booed a kid this weekend should be ashamed of themselves.
Great posts Connie and gymmom , lets end this thread on that note.
If you want to hate the coaches and the club have at it but please quit booing our wrestlers , after all it is supposed to be about the kids.
Jason Murdock
When someone boos, it is more a reflection of the booer than the booee. Anyone could have booed for the same reason that the booers did but many chose not to. Booing is never acceptable.
Except if you are poking a grandma in the eye with a hot stick, then someone ought to be doing some booing!
;-)
This is my first post so I hope it is not to long winded. I have been reading this forum for a long time. It is unfourtunate that the kids have to suffer the wrath of the crowd booing or cheering the result of their match whether they won or lost. The kids unfourtunately do not have control over the actions and reactions of the coaches and the parents on the wrestling mat and in the stands. The fact is that some but not all TOHK coaches and parents act in such ways that brings such negative feelings towards their club. The rest of the wrestling clubs watch and respond in their own ways to TOHK's behavior. I myself believe that it is the head of the wrestling clubs responsibilty to inform the parents, coaches, and wrestlers the type of attitude and behavior that it is acceptable. FANS THROWING THINGS ON TO THE MAT FROM THE STANDS AND A COACH FLIPPING OFF THE CROWD, which by the way all happened at the state tournament this year, IS NOT ACCEPTABLE! I know that everybody is built differently mentaly and there are hot heads and loud mouths that will never learn how to cope with losing and also winning with good sportsmanship. The head of the wrestling club needs to tell these certain individuals that these kinds actions will not be tolerated and they can not join the team. My older brother and his wife started their wrestling team 10 years ago with these rules always being up held. We start every wrestling year with a team meeting that includes the wrestlers and their parents that want to join our team. He gives a hand out that outlines and details what our wrestling team is all about. He hammers on the point of good sportsmanship is to be abided by all associated with our team, winning and losing. Don't get me wrong there are a few of us that get a little bent out of shape based a refs bad call or bad sportsmanship from the other wrestler or coach or in some cases our own wrestler. Not everybody is perfect but I can tell you that he or his wife would never put up with any of nonsense that you see from teams like TOHK. I can tell you that if we had someone associated with our team acting in an unsportsmanship like or undesirable like way a basic response from my brother would to tell the individual to SIT DOWN and SHUT UP or to leave the wrestling venue. This sport is for the kids and not for the coaches and parents that want to make a spectacle of themselves. For the love of God our kids have us to look up to and follow to help them live happy and successful lives. Thank You for the your time and I know I probably rambled way to long. One more thing Go State!
Bleeding Purple,
God is obviously not a K-State fan or they would have better teams.
Bleeding Purple,
God is obviously not a K-State fan or they would have better teams.
Funny windjammer, everyone knows that K-State doesn't do sports. Bleeding Purple is obviously talking about K-States fine Veterinary School.
Bleeding Purple,
God is obviously not a K-State fan or they would have better teams.
Funny windjammer, everyone knows that K-State doesn't do sports. Bleeding Purple is obviously talking about K-States fine Veterinary School.
Windjammer and PC,
You two are ruthless, and I like it.
Did anyone notice that there were about 3 to 4 refs missing from this year's state tournament that are there every year? I sure did and I called one of them up and asked him what was going on. He said that they were asked to work the state tournament but turned them down because the tournament and the director had no backbone to back up the refs and the decisions that they made. He said that they were tired of the whole mess that the state tournament has become. From what I could understand he felt like he was going to a gun fight with gun filled with blanks. I told him about what took place on mat 2 with the TOHK kid and the Gardner-Edgerton kid. The TOHK coaches were very upset with the outcome of the match and believed that the ref blew a call that cost their wrestler a win. I told him that the TOHK coaches were jumping up and down all over the place yelling and screaming at the ref and were way across their magical little line that is taped on the mat that coaches are not supposed to cross unless given permission to. I told him that no one was thrown out or penalized. He laughed and said he was glad that it was not his problem. He did say that if he was there and it was his mat they probably would have been good as gone from the tournament if the tournament would have back him on the ejection, but he doubted that they would. I also mentioned that some objects were thrown out on to the mat during the next match from the TOHK crowd. He did not laugh at that.
Gymmom I agree with you I would do the same thing. I don't want to get into this but parents should be above childish games and booing is a childish gesture and for shame on all of you who have been booing anyone. It doesn't matter whether it was a TOHK or any other team grow up and pull your big girl panties up and let the kids wrestle and the better wrestler will come up on top.
But if I call in sick and the boss jumps to the conclusion that I have an hangover and it's really the boss is spreading me the sickness. Case and point after we won a match a table worker yells to the coaches "Idiots come sign your sheet". The U vs EVERYONE was not deserved. (what happened afterwards was reprimanded)
Charlie,
I was there at MAT 5 and watched one of your wrestlers loose the 72# bracket and the reaction of the coaches on and off the mat is what specifically started this incident. When one of your wrestlers one the 76# bracket, a TOHK coach that was behind the table but on the floor hopped up on the wall and started screaming at people, "you know you hate it when we win, you know you hate it", over and over and over. And yes, he was directing it AT ME directly and others also by pointing at them My son was at 80# and because of one of your coaches flipping the crowd off and another calling a table worker a "f****** b****", the mat was shut down for a while. None of your coaches were called idiots, even though one of them was, that I heard and I was 2 feet from the table the whole time this was going on talking to the table workers from the Brawlers. The table workers handled themselves very well. I would say that your coach that jumped up on the railing was lucky that a gentleman didn't defend the honor of the lady that was cursed at. Good thing they only brawl on the mat and not off.
So, to say that your coaches were called idiots after you won a match is wrong. I didn't hear it. But, if it was said it wasn't said because your wrestler won. It was said because of the the way YOUR coaches were acting after the 72# match and the 76# match.
I do respect the intensity that your coaches bring to the mat. As you know I bring it also. I have not always been perfect by no means after Landon loosing. But, I think what most are trying to relay to you and your coaches is to walk on and off the mat like a champion win or loose.
We all seem to forget at times, me included, this is for the kids.
Good luck to all of those wrestling this summer and we will see you all next year.
Sean Deshazer Sr. calling my son a loser on the way to the podium, On the podium, and on the way back from the podium is one of the reasons TOHK is getting a bad name. My wife had to ask a security guard to walk them up the stairs.
Sean,
You still owe my wife and kid an apology. I don't know if your call yesterday was an attempt or not. I gave you one day to be a man. You will be called out every day until they recieve an apology.
Chad Beeson
Sean,
Thank you for the phone call. I appreciate you getting with me and talking this out. We have always had a good relationship with each other, our sons, and clubs. The next time we see each other this will be a non-issue. Kesean is a great wrestler who I hope we wrestle very few times in the future. Good luck and God Bless.
Chad Beeson
Case and point after we won a match a table worker yells to the coaches "Idiots come sign your sheet". The U vs EVERYONE was not deserved. (what happened afterwards was reprimanded)
Coach Knox,
I was behind that table. Anything said to that coach was JUSTIFIED by the table worker. YOUR coach had just flipped off the crowd by dragging his middle fingers across his forehead!!! How sad of an action is this. I don't know any of the parties involved, but am supplying a 3rd party view.
Jim Ryan
I was sittin right next to the table that happened after wat was said....but this is my first year coachin and i wrestled for knox and i have known all them guys since i was 4 or 5 years old....a lot of my success in the sport are owed to these guys...the booing even i got and i never did nething dirty or flagrant...as i got older i always laughed inside when i heard people boo cuz they just looked ignorant and that on them...i will come out and say some of the actions are not needed but that is from both sides..maybe both sides get better and meet in the middle things will change..
Iowastyle-
How would you react if the kids you pour your heart and soul into coaching just lost a tough match , only to have more than half the arena cheer the fact that they just lost?
I think Curtis hit the nail on the head when he talked about people antagonizing this behaviour.
Until you have been matside and had people boo your wrestler just for the simple fact that he wrestles for your club you will have no idea.
Jason Murdock
TOHK can flat out wrestle. There's no question about the talent and the skills of their wrestlers and coaches. They kicked my son's butt several times this year. But when the National Anthem is being played (not sure if it was fans, wrestlers coaches, etc.) and my son asks me (5 year old) why they have their hats on sideways and don't respect the National Anthem, I didn't know what to say to him.
Coach Knox, you asked for constructive criticism. This is something we can all do a better job at to help out sport, not a TOHK gripe.
Congrats to all on a good year,
Jeremy Seier
another thing i would like to say is that next year or through the summer if u see our coaches and i am one of them stop and have a conversation for a minute with me or any one of our coaches....i am very passionate about this sport and love being involved and though i will admit i am biased towards my wrestlers i also really enjoy seeing the other kids wrestle cuz its amazing to see the different approaches people take to the sport and i really enjoy it...u know the funniest thing to me is ppl are arguing all about TOHK but walkin through the tourneys this year i saw plenty of parents and coaches chastizing their wrestlers for a loss...i also saw bad calls this year that helped us out and the coaches just sat in the corner and the kid lookin at them like r u gonna do sumthn? i feel if u r out there wrestling and u know there is a bad call and your coach just sits there would u want him in your corner?now im not condoning yelling/cursing at refs but think about how u would feel if u were wrestling and your coach doesnt fight 4 u
TOHK can flat out wrestle. There's no question about the talent and the skills of their wrestlers and coaches. They kicked my son's butt several times this year. But when the National Anthem is being played (not sure if it was fans, wrestlers coaches, etc.) and my son asks me (5 year old) why they have their hats on sideways and don't respect the National Anthem, I didn't know what to say to him.
Jeremy Seier
General rule of thumb, take your hat off during the playing of the National Anthem. I don't give a hoot if you choose to wear your hat frontward, backward, side ward, or catty corner ward, take the dang thing off when the National Anthem is played.
My point exactly reDPloyd. If anybody knows about this it should be you. Again, not singling out any club, fans, coaches, etc. But I'd like to think I taught my son what you guys have done for us all. We should ALL do a better job respecting where we live and what we have. My son simply asked me about a certain individual about it.
I choose to take the high road when a call goes against us. I have a memory good enough to know that some calls go OUR way just as much as they go AGAINST us. It all evens out.
i understand that sir but just becuz u question a call does not mean u have to yell or be obscene...when u question a call it is not to get the ref to change it then and there it is more to get them to think about the call and approach it differently in the future...tho "takin the high road" may seem like a good idea the problem with that is the complaints you see on here about refs will only get worse if there are not coaches who question calls...refs need some things to be brought to attention...this doesnt mean yell and cuss the ref but its ok to question it and see where they are comin from then tell them where u r comin from i have seen this year i question a call then the rest of the tourney/year they call it the way that i see it...i dont question a call to spite a ref and make him look bad i do it to help our kids from all of our teams clean up "bad calls"
As a outsider looking in my son invited his grandpa to come watch him wrestle for the first time ever and was so glad he had come. I was setting in the stands beside his grandpa who had never been to one of these events before after about three hours he turned to me and said you know its not real hard to not like those guys and i said who and he said those hard knox coaches. I dont know wich ones he was talking about and really dont care but i was kinda embaresed that thats what he got to see at his first tourney. Point being them hard knox kids are great wrestlers who im sure work there tail off who diserve better than two have it ruined by a couple of there coaches. The coaches in question who i dont know who they are but they themseves do should feel ashamed and conduct themselves better for there kids that work there but off.On the other hand i was also embaresed that the crowd was booing the kid its not his fault its his coaches. Ijust wish these coaches in question would quit trying to imtemidate and argue with the refs on every call to get all calls including bad ones to go there way. Im not trying to upset anyone just letting you know the way it looks from a outsiders view.
im guessin it happened on mat 2 on saturday right?
Yes it did i think it could of been handled better but who am i to judge! Sure didnt look good to the spectators though.
Nobodys perfect everyone has flaws im sure that there was enough constructive critisism in this post that the hard knox coaches that were in question whoever they were get the point. And im confident that they will do whatever they feel they need to do to make there club stronger by getting the publics feedback . I think they get the picture and nothing else needs do be said or it would'nt be constructive no more it would just be critism . So i vote to end this topic
I 2nd that!
TOHK has shown a willingness to be open minded & open to suggestions.
I say if you have anymore issues email or PM Mr. Knox!
This topic pops up every year!
Maybe this year will be the year they dig deep and strive for change.
If not then I hope next year USAWKS takes a very serious no tollerence policy towards this kind of behavior.
Good luck on your road to change!
Its a long one but I know they will pack their sleeping bag and lunch and over come all this negative PR!
Chad,
The most heartbreaking part of all this was your wife saying she couldn't wait for the season to be over with Jake's bracket in her hand. Her son just won state and it was overshadowed by this behavior!! You don't get those moments back and hers was taken away.
Ok this needs to stop... we all have times when we get out of hand and get unsportsmanlike i know i did this weekend after i lost my finals match on a controversial call ( i kept my head for the most part except for a couple of choice words about the match to my coachs) but my point is TOHK is a good club i hate wrestling kids from there because i know they will be tough and they wont give up. My overall point is that everybody has their moments and its not right for anybody to call out coaches from TOHK or anywhere else for that matter about their behavior.
o and sorry about the grammar and punctuation misstakes on this texting has gotten the better of my typing skills.
Logan Arnhold Hays KS
o and sorry about the grammar and punctuation misstakes on this texting has gotten the better of my typing skills.
From what I have read on the forum, there must be a lot of folks out there texting too much.:) That is why they have the Preview Post buttom at the bottom, so you can critique what you wrote, including grammar and spelling, before you hit Submit. It really does work.
we all have times when we get out of hand and get unsportsmanlike
No, "we" don't! In fact, the over-whelming majority of coaches and parents never have a problem in regards to their own behavior and sportsmanship.
You do everyday on here! For someone who is constantly harassing people on a talk forum ,you should keep your judgements to yourself.
Jason Murdock
...That is why they have the Preview Post buttom at the bottom, so you can critique what you wrote, including grammar and spelling, before you hit Submit. It really does work.
it also gives you a second chance to 'cool down' and read what you've typed before you post
...That is why they have the Preview Post buttom at the bottom, so you can critique what you wrote, including grammar and spelling, before you hit Submit. It really does work.
it also gives you a second chance to 'cool down' and read what you've typed before you post
Very good point Special Ed. Again, based on a few of the posts I have read on the forum, this might help eliminate some of the knee jerk reaction comments. If all else fails, you can still be saved by the edit button, or, as I saw the week before State, the delete post button if you really aren't content with what you posted.
...That is why they have the Preview Post buttom at the bottom, so you can critique what you wrote, including grammar and spelling, before you hit Submit. It really does work.
it also gives you a second chance to 'cool down' and read what you've typed before you post
As evidenced by the post immediately before yours! But the opportunity to "cool down" doesn't mean someone can or will put anymore thought into their posts I guess.