Can anyone PLEASE tell me why the 6 & Under kids cannot be involved in the regular State Tourn. I don't feel this is fair to them. They work just a hard as the rest.
very good question, i also would like to hear the answer to that one!!!!
Pretty simple answer ... lack of volunteers at the state tournament, lack of time, lack of interest.
Nigel there are over 1500 kids @6 & under so your responce that there is no interest doesnt make any sence at all.I would love to see them added with out dropping anyone but if a group had to be dropped in order to add them I feel it would be better to drop the 16 yr old division .I dont have anything aganist 16yr olds but they already have a state tournament. The six & under are also with the team all year and work just as hard as the other kids.
No not lack of interest of fans, I mean lack of interest in those that put on the tournament, namely the kids state board.
Read in the Oklahoma vs. Kansas State topic about what Coachjt would like to see happen. I have not been a strong advocate of adding six and under because of the overcrowded conditions on the State arena floor already. I also feel it might be a little too much pressure on most of the young kids and families of 6 & unders (not all of them I know some are ready for it). But if Coachjt's plan were implemented, I believe it would take care of the floorspace problem. I like Coachjt's plan and it does allow for the possibility of six and under.
I am the mom of a 6 and under...he was upset that he couldn't go the the regular state with the other kids and I, myself, got upset when I heard several clubs didn't want to take their 6 and unders to Ottawa, that were Qualified and mature enough to go,because it was to much hassel or some other nonsense. I feel if you let them wrestle at the regular tournaments than they should be included in everthing they pay their dues and practice like the older ones. I felt as though they thought that the 6& unders were "less" of a wrestler because they were too young to go to the "big show". the 6 and unders in our club work harder than the older ones in my opinion!!!
Actually your kid could have wrestled at state but he would have had to qualify to state through the 8 & U bracket.. If hes good enough to do so then I don't see why he should not.
This topic has been discussed at great length for the last four or five years and it has ran off people from coming to the state meeting because they would argue about it for so long. District II has been pushing to add 6&U at state the other three districts have been apposed.
Now not everyone in district II is in favor nor are all the people in the other districts apposed. But last year we voted for 6&U at state and it got turned down 70% to 30%. This year was the first state meeting without discussing it and it was nice.
The main reason everyone used was it put to much pressure on the 6 yr. olds to wrestle at state.
Well said Coach,
This is just ones of those issues that many people woulnd't mind to see in practice but the issues it cause makes it not worth the time
i think that the 6 yr olds should be able to go to state just like the others.they work there butts off just like the others.there are more 6yr old in usa wrestling than any other age group.usa get there money just like the other kids THAT GO TO STATE why cant they wrestle? becouse they r to young that is a copout!what they should do is let them wrestle let them know what it is like.i know that most coaches would rather work with the older kids but the one thing that they need to rember is the 6yr olds are just as ready as the others.nigel i know how you feel about the 6yr olds! you think that they are a wasts of time becouse they cant do the moves you teach. GIVE THEM A CHANCE LIKE THE REST!!!!!!!!!
No I don't think all 6&U's are not good wrestlers becuase there are certainly exceptions I think you know of one! But overall there is not a lot of real wrestling that goes on in that age class, just rolling around. My feeling towards this age class has nothing to do with the moves I try and teach them, I can't expect them to be able to assimilate everything. The sad truth is that many wrestlers who never make it to high school wrestling are that way becuase their parents start them out too early and put too many expectations on them when they are not ready for it and they get burnt out, one of the best examples is a club that opperates near where I live. As a kids club they are excellent and have many good wrestlers however most of them never make it past middle school wrestling because they were pushed far too hard. Its stange that in a town that big with such a good kids club that they can't even compete at the state tournament in high school. Anyway as I said before I would not be against adding the 6&U's to the state tournament but not at the expense of another class such as 16&U or moving to another weekend.
6 & UNDER STATE IS TO YOUNG PERIOD. I know I am not speaking for everyone. I have coached youth wrestling for over twenty years. I have coached 5 year olds and I have coached college all-americans. I also vote at the state body meeting and I will never vote for 6 & under state. We do not need to put false expectations into these young childrens minds. A 6 & under state champ may not make it back to state for another 4 years or ever. This creates false expectations in the child and in the parents who think their kid is the toughest roughest rumbler this side of the Mississippi. My son was an pretty decent wrestler at six and under and won the majority of his matches in the two tournaments I let him pick to enter. When he graduated to 8 & under and he was all of 7 years old he was getting it handed to him pretty hard by some eight year olds. When he was eight he dealt some of the 7 year olds a whipping. I think as a whole that is the natural progression the majority of kids make. I as a coach do not want to burn out the young participants when he or she is in eigth grade.
I have seen it all to often that a parent is trying to create a national/olympic champion. Your child is not you and never will be you. So lets stop all this nonsense for a 6 & under world champ. I have seen parents run their kids out of baseball, football, track, tennis, golf, etc. Do not live your life through your childs eyes.
I have seen parents way out of hand watching the six and under group and our sport doesn't need that kind of pressure put on these young people.
The boys and girls will grow up at their own pace - not in your or my time frame. THE END!
not in
I don't understand why at the State meeting, 6u was voted against wrestling in their own class in the State Tournament. Everybody keeps stating that the kids are to young and the expectations ("parents") are to high but yet a 6u can wrestle in the 8u division at State. Explain to me why allow them to wrestle at all. I personally know of several kids who are 6u and have competed successfully in the 8u division at State. In MO you have to be at least 7 years old to wrestle in State Tournament, period. No 6u are allowed, no matter how good they are. My own personal opinion 6u should be allowed to wrestled in State. I mean, you have the 6&U Championships, don't you think that the expectations of the "parents" are high at that tournament as well?
As far as a kid getting burned out on wrestling, that doesn't happen because a kid goes to State at 6 years old, that happens because the kids parents cross the line from entering their child for the fun of it and then taking it to seriously. A serious parent will burn a child out regardless of the age, so that arguement isn't valid.
I agree with the thoughts expressed by smokeycabin above and Mr. Noblet in the Kansas vs. Oklahoma topic. We all have older boys and we have seen what happens to a lot of young kids who are pushed too far and too fast. Too many of these young wrestlers and families end up dropping out due to the pressure of winning at the highest level possible. I really do not believe the majority of these young kids are ready for that pressure and once you throw a potential State title into the mix there is automatically more pressure. I know my son would not have been ready for it as wrestler and truthfully I was not ready for it as a parent either. I remember how important I thought it was that he ought to be best wrestler in his age group at 7 when he started. I was wrong. It was more important that he was growing slowly as a wrestler every year and having fun at it. Many of the kids that had great success in his group at 8 & under at State are either out of wrestling now or not being as successful at the older age group.
From the practical side, it is not going to happen either in our current system. The resources at the State tournament are stretched to about their limit. You have older grade school kids wrestling on smaller mats than they should be at a State competition. You have long waits between matches on the first day, especially if you lose your first match. There are other things like an overcrowded parking lot and lack of a good warmup area for the wrestlers, etc. Parents of six & under should be concerned about these things because you will be experiencing that soon enough. Anyone who has experienced the full mats and shorter waits between matches for all age groups (at the Johnson County Classic and the District 1 South Sub-District at Pittsburg) can appreciate the difference between that experience and the smaller mats at State for 10 & 12 & unders. Contrary to what some say I believe our young wrestlers appreciate that difference. I know my 12 year old does.
I would say for those who want the closest thing to a State experience for 6 & under that you should take advantage of two events (the Park City/Wichita Classic and/or the Ottawa 6 & Under Championship meet). Encourage other parents on the forum next year to have their kids participate in those events. I agree with Mr. Noblet that an event that is 6 & Under only would be a lot better environment for children that young. If your team coach does not want to take the team to either, you can probably still go as an individual. In most cases you will be able to find a willing coach from another team who will coach your son or daughter at the meet. That is what happen for my son at Liberty Nationals this year where we entered him and our team did not go. He had three different coaches for his three matches and they were great and gave him some different perspectives and good advice after each match.
in responce to saying that 6 yr olds can go to state but they must compete in the 8 and under bracket..isn't that pushing them?? my son did go to the 8 and unders (all his choice) and the kids were twice his size. It left him feeling that he was fat and no good but thank goodness for the 6& under championships because now he is as proud as could be!! so I will never reccomend any child bumping up an age bracket. If my son had wrestled kids his own age they would not have matured as much yet. In the lighter brackets it might not matter, but my son wrestles 88lbs and boy there was a difference. it looked like the kids he wrestled lived in a gym!!
very well put by smokeycabin,
Its not so strange that the majority of the people than want to have a 6&U state are the very same parents that fall into that category of wanting to push their kids too hard. I know it can be hard to step outside of your own life and see what you are doing but it is something that everyone needs to learn. To a parent in this situation their though process is something like "well im doing this for the good of my child, and the more he wrestles now and the more I push him now, the better he will be in the future" Also these parents think that they know what their kid wants to do and they will either force them to do it or make them feel guilty for not doing it. Im sure I'll get plenty of critisim for this remark but I think many of the other coaches in this forum know about what im talking about, cuase they have seen parents in thier own club do it as I have seen parents in mine. This issue hits me very hard personally becuase I have a little nephew who going to turn 5 right before next season starts and I wanted to start him last year despite the reservations I have always had against kids starting so young. But I know I will be focusing all my coaching on him next year and it scares me that I might push him too hard and not realise it. Unless I feel he could really place wrestling with the 8&U's there is no way im letting him wrestle at state. Whereas the popular opinion amoung 6&U parents is that it would be more fun for their kids to go to state and get waxed than compete in their own division at state.
No Nigel it just gives us a little more insight about you!
Richard:
My guess is that she is talking more about height and muscular structure. I know last year my son was wrestling at the top of the 10 & under age bracket at 120. He only weighed 115 and had some decent height and muscle to him. He faced a couple of 8 year old boys who were coming up an age bracket for the competition. They were shorter and not as lean or muscular. My son pinned them fairly quickly in the first period and I thought it did not help those 8 year olds at all to experience that. I think it is more likely for a young heavy kid to experience these imbalances in height and strength against a boy two years or more older. But I also am not in favor of 6 and under at State for reasons that you and others have stated.
i am a father of a 6 and under wrestler and though it would be great fun to take him to state i would rather just have a 6 and u championship meet like in ottawa. it was a good time. they did it up like at state with less the crowd, less the time, less the hassle. my son took 2nd and the felt like he was world champ!!!these kids are young enough they don't care where they wrestle. they will get to go to state in due time.they have alot to learn still.(a least most of them) let them have fun because it is for the KIDS!!!!
I also loved the Ottawa meet. I think that 6 & u are not ready for state either. If we are not going offer 6u state because they are not mature enough then I don't think we should allow 6u's to enter in 8u!!! Because, if they are not mature enough to wrestle 6u at state then they are definitely not mature enough to wrestle 8u at state. I watched many matches at State on Mat 1 where all the little guys were competing. Some of those little guys looked pretty overwhelmed. Ithink that if we are going to have tthe Ottawa 6u then we ought to leave the 8u state for the 7 and 8 yr olds.
I'm not saying this because I have a 7 or 8 yr old. My son is actually 6. And he will be wrestling at 6u again next year.
I also had the unfortunate opportunity to witness a little bitty (40 lb.) wrestler trying to make weight at state. It was pathetic. Enough said.
The Ottawa meet was great, and it wasn't drug out over two days and there was not a mob of people. Don't put too much emphasis on 6 and under being with the other age groups. It's nice in a place of it's own. Today there are way too many parents who put too much pressure on their kids, at this age they should focus on learning the basics and having fun. There are to many parents that try to live their childhood through there own kids, and that will not work. It makes me sick to see 10 and under parents sit on the edge of the mat and yell, not coach but yell at their kid wrestling, fun???? No, and when the kids see the parents mad because they did not win, well it's all negative. They will have enough pressure in high school, don't push it.
I was one of "those" parents who entered their 6 and under wrestler in the 8 and under sub-districts. He won sub-district and districts then went 0-2 in the State tournament. Yes, he cried a little bit after his losses but I saw much worse behavior out of 10-12-14 and even 16 year olds who threw temper tantrums on the mat.
Did we yell at him when he lost - no - we bought him Dippin' Dots. Within about an hour he had found a piece of cardboard and was "grassboarding" down the hill outside.
I have witnessed parents who yell at their 6 year olds, have seen them drop their kids down a weight class, etc., and I don't claim that those parents aren't out there. But please don't lump all of us into one group of crazy parents who want to live through our kids and think that our kid is the next Olympic wrestler. My 6 year old got into wrestling so early because he has been around it so long watching his brother wrestle. He wants to enter the tournaments that his brother is in - he might as well wrestle because he has to be there anyway. Would I have taken him to State if his older brother wasn't going - probably not. But no harm was done.
What is good for one 6 year old may not be good for another. It all depends on the kid. My kid handled himself pretty well, finished a terrific wrestling season and is going to baseball practice on Monday. But maybe we should consider moving to Colorado - he could possibly become the next snowboard champion!
I have enjoyed reading everyone's posts on this topic. Everyone is showing a concern for their children and for what they feel would be right for them and our Kansas Kids Wrestling. I especially liked the last four posts by mat rat #1, Van Fam 7, jaxx, and wrestlingmom. They were all slightly different but what is best for the kids is what I saw to be the common theme of each.
I know wrestlingmom's family. There is no doubt in my mind that the young man and the family were ready for him to participate in the State tournament this year. Their family is actually the primary one I had in mind when I stated in one of my posts that some families and wrestlers are ready for the tournament. I really thought he might have been ready last year for the tournament. This young man not only won the 8 & under Subs and District but he also won the 6 & Under Park City/Wichita Classic. To me those accomplishments definitely make him qualified as a wrestler to make a run at placing at State. This family is not an example of a pushy sports family. It is a very supportive sports family and their boys are all good multi-sport athletes.
I think this is a worthwhile topic that we can all learn from. I know I'm enjoying it and learning from it.
I just want to explain my situation and how I feel about "pushing "kids...My son is six and this is his second year wresling. He is very excited about the sport. I DO NOT believe in cutting any weight, so there for he weighed 81 lbs and wrestled 88 lb div. at 8 and under and also at Ottawa( even though they changed the weight div. there) I let him choose what he wants to do,and what tournements to go to, and he is the one that wondered why his age was different and yes, he had a wrestler tell him that he "didn't really go to state" because he didn't go to topeka. I guess my biggest problem isn't that they don't get to go to the big meet with everyone else but that they don't get noticed for the things that they do. Where is the page telling who won at Ottowa??I haven't heard a thing? I will let my son wrestle for as long as he wants and where ever he wants. If he does his best I am happy as can be but when he bring up points like this and a few others, I can only tell him the truth. and in this case, what is that??

and to Mr. Salyer, my son is short and husky, he is very strong but only six, Mr. Nowak is correct in his explanation to you. some times its not all just lbs. that matter.
Parents complaining about their 6 year olds not having a division at the state tournament sound as if you think they will always be six. STOP rushing the little ones. "Next year." Is that so hard to say? It's not the 6 & under's time for STATE. There is a 6 & Under Championship. These 6 & under wrestlers hopefully will grow into 8, 10, 12, 14 & 16? Are those champions of 8 & Under from 6, 7, 8 years ago, are they still wrestling? A lot of them still are. I know of some who are not. Pushed too hard in the beginning. Who's to say.
My impression from reading these posts is that those who oppose 6-under at the State tournament believe 6 year olds are too young, can't handle the pressure etc, etc, etc. If that is the case, why do other states have this division including Texas who actually have a younger TOTS 4-5 year old division? And probably a more interesting question would be why do MOST of the big National tournaments like Tulsa, Reno, Kick-off, Rocky Mountain Nationals series, etc offer a 6-under division???? If you think there is less pressure to win in the present method, you are dreaming. Pressure comes from parents and no matter what you do, you can't change that. If kids are mature enough to wrestle in the area tournaments every weekend, then they should be rewarded with an opportunity to qualify and wrestle in State in their own age divisions. Just because the state tournament has always been a certain way does not mean it is the best way. Change can be good especially if it is in the best interest of our kids. It would be interesting to me to know whether the 70% to 30% vote against a 6 yr old division at state by a reletively small group of "leaders" is really a true representation of the majority of members in this organization. If it is great but if this decision is being made my a small group of individuals who cast their vote based primarily on their own viewpoint and not the viewpoint of the people they represent, then the way this decision is made should be,in my opinion, changed.
The votes are cast at the state meeting, and every club is encouraged to send a representative. In fact, they are actually penalized by the loss of a coaches pass at State if they do not send a representative, so this is not a small group of people trying to keep decisions to themselves. Also, for the most part, the people who attend these meetings have been around wrestling for quite a long time and have come to their opinions through much experience. That is not to say that they are perfect, but they are certainly not attempting to cast these votes in secret or without the vote of every club in the state. If you think this voting process needs to be made more reflective of all, the best way to do it is to have a representative of every club present and ready to vote for the position of their club.
Truthfully, the reason why the issue is voted down every year is becuase the people that mostly want a 6&U division at state are those whose own kids are in that group. The people that are voting every year usually don't have any kids in that age. Usually the parents who want it complain and complain for at most a couple of years then their kid moves to the next age class and qualify and they forget about the 6&U idea becuase it doens't pertain to them anymore or they couldn't care less. This really is a dead subject because as you have already seen at least three other times in this post there is no way its going to get passed until a large group of "supporters" aka parents start attending club meetings and bringing up the idea with your presidents or head coaches (whoever is your rep at the state meeting) and take yourselfs to the state meeting and voice your concerns, otherwise you might as well stop talking about. "Actions speak louder than words" -anonymous
Nigel,
Sometimes you need to engage your brain before your fingers. The previous post just explained it to you that most of the people that attend district and state meetings are persons that have been in the sport for numerous years, which is absolutely correct. This would lead one to believe that most of these people do not have wrestlers in the 6U group unless it is younger siblings. The facts are these, district II has a long history of supporting 6U at state. It has been brought up for a vote at the state meeting I believe at least 3 times that I am aware of. It is repeatedly voted down by districts 1 and 3 for the most part. So no, it isn't just the parents of 6U wrestlers that support the addition at state.
Ok, well heres the deal. keep on bringing it up and watch it keep getting voted down.
NO!!! PLEASE DON'T BRING IT UP AGAIN!
So then, if the Board is opposed to 6u at State, why do they allow them to enter at 8u? Does anyone know the answer? It seems to me that, if they are so against 6u at State , and have been for years, they are being hypocritical.
VanFam7
6u's are allowed to enter the state tourney at 8u because they qualified as one of the best at 8u kids in the district. Six is under Eight.
VanFam7, your question was directed to the wrong group. As KCWrestlersMom pointed out in her post, these rules are voted on by the member clubs, each of which gets one vote at the state body meeting. The Kids Executive Council, like the State Body, has those who support adding a 6 & Under division at the state tournament, but (also like the State Body), they are outnumbered by those who are opposed to it.
Irregardless of how the Executive Council feels, however, a simple majority vote by the clubs would make this happen. The issue has been debated, and quite heatedly, at previous state body meetings, and as others have pointed out, the vote by those clubs has consistently been strongly opposed to the addition of a 6 & Under division at state.
I think Coachjt and many others aren't necessarily opposed to the change, they just don't want to have to go through another protracted fight at the state body meeting, unless there is reason to believe that the clubs would vote differently than in the past.
Sorry coach JT I was being sarcastic
VanFam7,
I have never been to a meeting of our association, so I don't actually know how the discussion goes. I would guess however that the practical aspect of resource limitations that I referred to in above post probably has a great deal to do as to why we do not have six & under at State right now. If they were included, you would have even longer waits between matches and even more wrestling age groups would be put on smaller mats. I do believe people are being very sincere when they say that they do not believe most 6 & unders or their families are ready for it. As you go on in wrestling I believe you will find that the success that they achieve in the older age groups will be more significant to their ultimate success as a wrestler. But I really do feel the limited resources have a lot to do with it.
I think if a large group of you really want to see a sanctioned 6 & under State Championship that you would have a better chance of getting the Ottawa or some alternative site designated as the official State 6 & under championship. I just don't see them trying to stretch out the resources of the State tournament even more with another age group.
I have not stated that I am for or against it. I can honestly see both sides of the issue. It would make the tourney longer. Another angle to look at is the numbers of 6u members. That 30$ membership adds up. Those dollars are what help put on the state tourney. Yet, they are denied participation and recognition. Again, I am not for or against 6u state I am just exploring and discussing the issue. I am not pointing fingers or accusing, just curious!
Before adding 6 and under at states, I would like to see that the majority of wrestlers get the opportunity to wrestle on a full mat. Also, the better wrestlers should have longer time periods.
For example, some state championships for kids in the past have had full mats along with 2-2-2- periods for any wrestler over 100 pounds.
The problem with allowing 6 and under is limited resources of mat space etc... and compromising older wrestlers with small mats, short time periods (i.e. 1-1-1) etc. It is generally parents that 'push' their 6 year old without realizing the effect on their kid.
Iowa Fan did you attend the Folkstyle Nationals? I have made comments on this on the Oklahoma Vs. Kansas thread and made mention of the possibiolity of using the weigh in room for extra mats. Well they did this at the Nationals. They could do the U6 and Cadet Division at state with out any additional time being added.. The bottom line is that Kansas Wrestling should support what the majority of PARTICIPANTS want on this issue. It would be interesting to know after the discussions the specific clubs who were opposed. If there was an open voting process the thing might pass, especially when considering the flack that came from those individuals and clubs who did support the issue. To say though that it is already offered and that 5 year olds can compete in a U8 division is, I believe, unrealistic and unfair. It would be interesting to hear of the legalities of this, offering different benefits and qualifications for different groups based solely on age from an attorney. I am solely against Title IX but bad law's often get passed by organizations or individuals not acting appropriately in the first place. If colleges and High Schools had seen the benefit of women's sports this law may have never been passed. It would be a shame to see something like this eventually force itself upon us because of an unwillingness to offer it. By the way and for the record, I don't have a U6 wrestler in my family and probably never will again. One additional comment here, the continuation of the "fight" for this division I believe is worth it. I can think of numerous times in life people have had to fight hard and continually to get something right passed, and it just seems to me that when paying the same price the same benefits, against the same age group of kids is fair.
Nigel, if you are still reading in this topic you can see that Iowa Fan is an example of one of these 12 & under kids who wants bigger mats and a better state experience. I believe you made a statement in the Kansas vs. Oklahoma topic that a 1/2 mat was good enough for 12 & unders. You also said, "...No more talk about giving this group and that group a great state experiance. Ask just about any kid in any age group and they will tell you that thye enjoy their state experience regardless of how its run...". If you read Iowa Fan's post above, I guess you would have to say he is an exception to your statement. Iowa Fan wrestled at State this year in the 12 & Under age group and he seems to believe that his state experience could have been better if it had been run in a different way.
In connection with this topic, I received a private request to post a breakdown of how card fees are allocated. A
summary financial report has been posted on this website. This shows how the card money is allocated to the various divisions of USAW-Kansas. In addition, each division also has its own financial activities beyond the card fees.
I hope the summary report helps you see where your card money is allocated. If you want more information, please contact your club's director. Every club was provided with a fully detailed set of financial statements at the beginning of the season.
Vince,
you may not have known.. but there is an open vote just about every year on this topic and it always gets voted down basically because no one wants to be responsible for the extra work load it would create to add the 6&U's as I have continued to proclaim if some people would step up to the plate and say "Yes I will volunteer shoudl we add this" then maybe it would have a chance but that never happens. Most of the time people will say that they are willing to help but when it comes time to do it they are the first to back out and say they have other things to do.
Nigel, I know you are probably correct about the fact that many people will back away from actually volunteering to do anything extra.
If you have read all my posts on this, you could see that I'm not advocating 6 & under being added to State. Actually I would prefer to see only 4 instead of 5 age groups at State. I advocate 7 & under (2nd graders & under), 9 & Under (3rd and 4th graders), 11 & under (5th and 6th graders) and 14 & under (7th and 8th graders with no high school wrestlers). All the wrestlers would have bigger mats, less wait between matches, and a shorter wrestling day on Saturday and Sunday. I would also advocated the kids folkstyle season to ideally end before both the high school season is over and also before most of the kids are on their Spring Break.
I would definatly be against trying to get rid of the high schoolers, I love watching the high schoolers at kids state because they get to meet up with other wrestlers from different classes that would not be possible in High school state
Richard, I have a hard time figuring you out as do many others. I think your comments are sometimes the reason for that.
Regarding some of your comments: Here goes: You want to seem to want to criticize me for my lack of volunteerism. Well, you will certainly need to get your facts straight on this one issue. Ask any number of individuals at state this year if I made that effort. I think I recall working weigh-in, helping work tables as did my wife and son and our club has a good reputation for its willingness to always help, plus I did church on the mat. By the way these things were replicated the following week for nationals. I think I even offered to help clean mats or anything else that was needed maybe you can ask someone like Coach Gibson or several others at the tournament about that. There were several times I even helped the people in the hospitality room. I would never mention these things except you seem to have a reason to question if I was willing to help. Regarding volunteering for a six and under at state, Read my writing. I DON'T HAVE A 6 AND UNDER KID BUT HERE GOES, LISTEN REAL CLOSE, I'LL BE GLAD TO HELP. By the way that tournament was on a Sunday. I personally took 4 vacation days to attend, since I pastor a church that meets on a Sunday. I'll tell you what, and I mean this, challenge me to see if my comments are true. I'll volunteer on one of your Sunday tournaments, outside of state, or 6 and under state if you agree to preach from the pulpit in my church on that same Sunday. You want to challenge me here, let's see if who is willing to come through here. I mean this in fun, but am serious.
You also make the comment about my comment about people knowing who votes which way on certain issues related to KS wrestling. As far as I am concerned, the populace of the individuals purchasing their cards should have a say in the issue. I would love information about this process from someone within the organization since I am new to this state as far as wrestling goes. Coach Juby or Richard, feel free to inform the ignorant, (me). I will continue to believe though that the officers should represent those individuals and should stand for what is right. There may have very well been discussions on this in the past, but it seems from the number of posts that there is still some interest.
You make a great comment about rights in Kansas, specifically related to driving. I will challenge that on your example though, that if a 16 year old was told they had to wait until they were 18 that would be unfair, if they had the same payment requirments. By the way, a history lesson here, not trying to be rude, but America is not a Democracy, it is a Republic. There is a difference, remember the pledge to the flag, especially the part about supporting the Republic for which it stands.
Regarding the statement of unfairness; You make mention of several exceptional wrestlers and that is a fair and appropriate statement; however, those individuals are few and far between. On any given year, you may be able to make that comment about a few wrestlers but when looking at the total placers for the total number of wrestlers I don't believe your figures hold out. Maybe someone would like to do a legitimate study of legitimate 6 and under wrestlers that place at state and see the numbers. If I am wrong, and a large percentage, say even 40% of those placing in the 8 and under are legitimate 6 and unders I will gladly apologize and admit my mistake on this issue. Frankly, I'll even be glad to do the math and stats if someone can inform me as to the ages, etc of the placers in the last few years of 8 and under. Again, I'm stepping up to your challenge.
You continue with your comments criticizing me for my comments. As stated above I helped in several tournaments this year besides the one's mentioned above. You state that I have made negative comments about Kansas wrestling. Show me where. I started a thread that actually praised Kansas wrestling and its tournaments as its wrestlers as being as good and it’s state tournament as being better. Numerous officials and officers of the state board and tournaments of KS have told via email and in person of the appreciation of those comments. Again, Mr. Slayer if you are going to throw mud at least have the decency to get your facts straight.
Your last comments regarding duel residence. Here are the facts. I have a home in Oklahoma, used part time for rental, (vacation) and ministry related retreat home, by the way of which I receive no income. I live in, and pastor a church in Wichita. My wife will be teaching school in Derby next year, right now she is a stay at home mom. Did I love Oklahoma? Yes, and I still do, as I did other states I am from including Tennessee and North Carolina if you want to use those states to also criticize me. I have many friends who wrestle, and coaches I appreciate from there and various other states. I do however live in Kansas and love it. I plan to continue living here until my son graduates from High School. I can't continue to make promises after that because I have a job that requres transition on ocassion. I actually believe that your comments of essentially “love it or leave it” are inappropriate and disrespectful. By the way, I also lived here from 1977 to 1985 when I promoted concerts attended college and worked with the homeless and needy in Wichita. Simply put Mr. Slayer, you seem to want to throw mud at someone where it will have a hard time sticking. I will continue to give back to this sport and the people of Kansas whom I love and appreciate. It was my choice to move back here, because I love it. I would hope your comments and attitude of this nature would not be applied to the military personnel who are stationed in Kansas, yet originated from another state. I will also continue to advocate for the sport and the kids in the sport and for this state. I just happen to believe it is more appropriate to find ways to make something work than it is to blast someone and make accusations that are simply, incorrect. You see, comments that propose to describe my comments as negative about this state and can not be taken back from those who read them are simply put; Wrong!
I don't know what you mean about your comment regarding supporting Martha and siding with Hootie. That being the case I can't comment. Mr, Slayer, there have been numerous times that I have posted in support of your comments and your right to make those comments even though I may not always agree with them on other threads. I would hope that your efforts are not to demean or put someone down just because they disagree with you on a particular point. I always use my name for the reason that people can feel free to contact me personally, many have, many who disagree with my views and many who agree. I appreciate that and will continue to do so.
I also don't understand your need to make the comment regarding Saddam. Are you trying to make a point that is popular to draw favor? I honestly don't know. If and please understand that I mean if, that is the case, please be reminded of my comments and prayers supporting our troops at the State and National Tournaments as well as my own families and numerous friends involvement in the war at this time. Also pick up a number of newspapers that have run articles about my church making those efforts, far more than just praying as of recent. Maybe you have heard some of the interviews I have done on various radio stations on this point. Then again, maybe not, if so you would have never made this particular comparison.
I fully understand that life is not fair. Feel free to visit my neighborhood and allow me the honor of showing you the people I work with on a daily basis who know that and I am spending my life trying to help. Maybe you can visit my web site
http://www.furches.org and hear comments from athletes, governors and others that have praised my efforts. I again would enjoy trading roles on a particular Sunday so you can see legitimate people who have had little hope but have overcome those obsticles. While life may not be fair, it does not negate our responsibility to try and make it fair. Many people use the wording of "Well, am I my brother’s keeper?" Amazingly, they are quoting a Bible verse when they make that comment, unfortunately they never read Jesus response, which paraphrased, is, "You bet you are."
If a simple majority of individuals who pay their dues to USA KS were polled on this issue and did not approve I would simply agree with the inability to pull it off. That does not mean that I would agree with the decision though and would not continue the effort to work for what I believe to be fairness.
You see Mr. Slayer I am not opposed to your rights to make your comments. I might disagree but when personal attacks are made I think you have crossed the line. I just happen to perceive that anyone reading those comments would likely take them that way, especially where you tell me how far it is to drive to Oklahoma. I will at least have the decency to email you my response as well as post it on the web site.
One last question though. Do you have any kids in this group? I have stated that I do not. I have also stated that I would be willing to help at a combined state. If you do not have kids here, or even if you do, I would be curious to understand in a civil way as to the reason for the level of lack of support. I do know that if our country never readdressed issues such as slavery, women's rights, age of service for military, etc that things in America would be much different. Frankly I hope we fight like crazy to readdress public law on Title IX. Thankfully, we live in a country that allows for this type of debate.
Richard,
You made a suggestion that Mike was unwilling to volunteer for the cause that he is promoting. The insinuation here is that it is easy for Mike to complain but back it up as a volunteer first. You also brought up his dual residency in Oklahoma and Kansas. I think most people would consider that a personal comment and one that was not given in a positive light. I think most of us would taken these comments personally. You have posted that I'm just always complaining before on your comments about my posts. Are you the only person who can promote a change or comment about a situation in a negative manner and not be considered to be complaining? I guess it is your choice of words or phrasing your objections but I would say that you do have a tendency to get personal in your objections to posts from other people.
I'm not for the six and unders to be included at State like Mike is. You can see from my last post what I'm for.
Come on Guys, I'm getting an Ice Cream Headache!!!
I know exactly how you feel
While my son is now 11, I'm for a 6&u state tournament. We have attended the Tulsa Nationals since Rhett was 6 and I see no problem other than floor space.
I believe District II voted to host the tournament, but them politics became a factor.
Again, let's GO For IT!
Mike Flood
I agree that 6and under needs to be added to the state tournament. On the other hand it would have to be a 3 or 4 day tournament. Getting help for 3-4 days is hard. So my final answer would be: ENTER IN 8 AND UNDER!!!!!! My son did as a 5 year old and made it to state in his forst year. If you want to get it added then start rounding up helpers on a list and submit it to the board and see what happens.
Youth Sports
Quick Facts
Age in which children first have the capability to understand social dynamics of competitive sports: 8 years old
· Average stint in one sport : 5 years
Source: U.S. Census Bureau, National Council of Youth Sports, NCAA.org, Jay Coakley's "Sports in Society".
· Number of kids ages 5-19 in U.S.: 61,446,112
· Number of kids ages 5-18 that competes in 61 top sports organizations: 38,259,845
Source: U.S. Census Bureau, National Council of Youth Sports, NCAA.org, Jay Coakley's "Sports in Society".
Youth Age Divisions
Youth competitions typically take place in two-year age divisions. These age divisions provide young athletes the opportunity to compete with other athletes of similar ability. The age divisions for competition year 2005 are as follows:
Age Division Year of Birth
Bantam (10 & under) 1995+
Midget (11-12) 1993-1994
Youth (13-14) 1991-1992
Intermediate (15-16) 1989-1990
Young (17-18) 1987-1988
2005 Divisions
The Junior Olympics is divided into six divisions for boys and six divisions for girls. The athlete's year of birth shall determine the division in which the athlete shall compete. With each succeeding year each division shall be adjusted. Listed below are the 2005 divisions (NOTE: Sub-Bantams do not advance past the Region 2 Meet in both Track & Field and Cross Country):
Sub-Bantam: Born 1997 or after
Bantam: Born in 1995-1996
Midget: Born in 1993-1994
Youth: Born in 1991-1992
Intermediate: Born in 1989-1990
Young: Born in 1987-1988
(NOTE: Sub-Bantams do not advance past the Region 2 Meet in both Track & Field and Cross Country):
Which line item in the budgetlisted in Mike Juby's post represents the costs for Kids State in Topeka?
Won Wood
What year did your son compete as a 5 year old and at what weight?
I have read all of the arguments for and against 6 and under participating at Topeka's State Championship. Some of the comments have been extremely harsh and VERY narrowminded. I was offended at the attacks to the Wrestling Moms. My family has been involved with wrestling for many years and I've attended four straight State Championships. I have a son who will be in 16 and under next year and had one in 6 and under this year. So I can empathize with the emotions behind both age groups. I have also had experience with another equally competitive sport, Premier Soccer. In both sports, indvidual excellence is the ultimate goal( You know what I'm saying...that high school Varsity spot or College scholarship!). ALOT of time and money on the parent's part is spent and the children are prodded sometimes willingly and sometimes not along the way. Similar to wrestling, those "first in the sport" parent's assume that because their child is very good and on a great team at an early age then their son is the next Freddie Adu. But over time, other's skills improve and puberty kicks in! The playing field levels significantly at around age 12. And as SmokeyCabin has said to my own sons, when you get to this age group everyone is tough because the average wrestlers have quit. You'll still see some of those once amazing 6 year olds at age 14 competing and then there will be a whole list of others that you say, "whatever happened to?" I do know that my 7th grader drove SmokeyCabin crazy at age six running around the wrestling room and climbed on Smokey's back more that he practiced those first two years. He placed at Novice tournaments and there wasn't a 6 and under Championship back then(if there was I didn't know about it).
But you know, I know he isn't looking back lamenting over if only he had gone to State at six, how great he would have been. If we are all honest with ourselves, at age six Gameboy and Hotwheels rank higher and the honor of a State Championship is short lived and it's more important to the parents in bragging rights. I could have taken my Kindergartner this year to the 6 and Under Championship, but you know wrestling season is long enough for all of us and the other two did fine without it. By the way my seventh grader got second at State this year, it was a long 7 year trip to the Championship, but it was well worth the wait! On the other side my other son placed too and he's moving up next year to 16 and Under so it will be the last hurrah, so to speak. I know IT IS IMPORTANT to a 15 or 16 year old (compared to a six year-old or parent of one) to place at State. Those Championship memories will be much more engrained in those wrestler's minds when they look back when they are adults than of those memories from when they were five or six. I do believe that the State Championship is more VALUABLE when it is kept as a PERSONAL goal or achievement. When it is something that a wrestler strive's for, it is kept special. So now that I've honored Vince Nowak by writing a book, I will finish by saying let's keep it the way it is, it works well. It is an honor to make it to State whether you are a six year-old competing at 8 and Under or a sixteen year old for the last time and let's keep it sacred. And for those out there who want to argue that it is their six year old wrestler who wants it most of all, that's great that your child loves the sport. However, it is alot easier to keep a child competitive striving towards a goal than to have to push them along after the disappointment of losing something they've already attained. Those are some of the ones that have burned out that we look back on and say "what ever happened to so and so, remember when you thought you could never beat him?" There's always an exception, but the pattern hasn't changed in my experience with wrestling, soccer, baseball, football and the list goes on.
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Amen, Amen. Read the comments on the topic "WOW...". I agree totally with everything you just said.
Originally posted by jeffroberts:
Which line item in the budgetlisted in Mike Juby's post represents the costs for Kids State in Topeka?
I'm not sure what your question is above. The state tournament is a profitable operation.
Having been to a few elections on this topic, I'll try to be brief and not too offending.
First off, as others have stated, this has been a dramatic push out of one of four districts and each time it has been brought up, as a voting body (ie the clubs) it has been voted down. It hasn't even been close. Costs, financial impact on families, wrestlers aptitude, etc., is immaterial. The brass tacks so to speak clearly illustrate that there isn't a wide spread interest.
Don't believe me? Case in point, this topic. Out of 1500+ participants, we have 26 posters. And let's just suppose for a minute that each poster was bent on getting this through. Reality check, the 26 would only amount to 2% of the eligible wrestlers. Never in the course of history has 2% been able to force anything into being.
I'm bad at research. Does anyone have the numbers of the 6 and under state tourney in Ottawa? How many attended? What percentage is that?
What bothers me about this dead horse is the fact that such a insignifant percentage is actually interested in the endeavor, ie, low percentages in posters, votes on the floor of the state body meeting, and I'm speculating here, but turnout in relation to eligible participants at Ottawa vs. the total numbers, consistently come on the message board right about the time late Jan, begin posting about how bad the Board is in not letting it fly.
What's the problem? First, as Mike pointed out, this is not the board's decision. This is an issue that has to be brought up and passed by the state body. The board only acts as the facilitator to enact what the body wants. The state body has clearly stated time and time again, through its vote, that it is not interested.
Second, if this was such a pressing issue, of vital importance to the well being and growth of the athlete, then why hasn't more been done to ensure such participation is included. Quite simply, "my kid's not six anymore." What irked us as parents with 6 year olds isn't that important to us when they are 8. That should attest greatly in to it's vital importance.
The argument of, "they deserve it," holds little water. I deserve a payraise as a teacher, I don't think our legislators are going to follow it through though.
The argument of "we're the largest group" is of little importance as well. It is the largest group, composing of 22% of the wrestlers. Not enough to overthrow much of anything. But lets take a closer look at the numbers, they slowly dwindle the older out kids get. Now this is because of a variety of issues, but I contend that most drop out because of burnout. Instead of barking about, "why not 6," we should be glad that there are voting members that realize we're losing numbers and this could be a contributing factor.
I have yet to hear of a kid quitting wrestling at 6 because of no state tourney. I have heard of kids quitting because they are burnt out.
Enough complaining about "think of the kids" or "what about the largest group" already. Could it be that most 6 year old parents are just out exposing their kids to the sport like my mom and dad did with me when I was young. They had no ambition of state champion at 6. Their ambition was to find something I was passionate about and enjoyed as a squirt and then feed that passion as I got more interested.
At six, though I was on the ball field every evening working on throws from centerfield to home with the team, I was more interested to see how much Big League Chew bubble gum I could get in my mouth.
Just some thoughts and I went longer than I wanted.
martialartswrestler, I have to thank you for resurrecting this thread from two years ago. Nigel, you can see we were locked in posting combat two years ago. I bet you could find threads from four years ago and you would find Nigel and myself going at it. It is like a broken record (on Nigel's part not mine).
KC Sportsmom, that is certainly an impressive post. I am honored that you mentioned me in it, but I must say you know I am noted for being concise and not overly verbose in my posting! By the way I am signing copies of my new book "My 428 Greatest Kansas Wrestling Forum Posts" at this Sunday's end of the season banquet. KC Sportsmom, you have earned a complimentary copy.
Good post. I actually went in my son's room last night to see what he had done with all his trophies and medals he earned playing biddy-basketball, baseball, football, etc. I found them all in a box shoved under his bed, dusty, jumbled, without any care. I asked him why they were there and he said he didn't even remember half that stuff. He does have his junior high and high school achievements displayed, but as a teenager he has retired his childhood memories.
Let the kids learn when they're 5 and 6. Let them learn the fundamentals and decide if they really like the sport. Don't put the pressure on them that they have to win RIGHT NOW or ELSE!!! We need our sport to grow not decrease in numbers. We need these kids in the long term not the short term. We need them for that team state title or national colege title. I don't have an individual state title to my name, but I do have a team title to my name. And it still means the same today as it did 18 years ago. It was a group of teammates pulling together other than someone by themself. I have nothing against the 6 year olds. It should just stay the way it is. I have a 10 year old and a 6 year old and a 3 year old.
Everyone keeps saying there's 1500 plus 6U kids paying their dues and working their butts off all year. I bet it's 500 or less. Let them learn and if the parent thinks they can kick some *** let them wrestle at 8U. I did with my oldest. My 6 year isn't even close. Each child is different some have it early and some don't.Kids mature at different levels.
I left the sport of wrestling for a few years when I was a young kid. You guessed it I was burnt out. Because I tried to get my son to enter some of these national tournaments here at the end of the season. He told me NO!! He placed at state state. I asked him don't you want to see how you rate nationally?? I don't care was his answer. He was done with his season and satisified with what he had done for the season. Please, everyone don't burn them out.