I like the fact that we use TW for recording and posting the results of our state events. I know that sometimes there are hold ups at the mats waiting for bout sheets and that is the biggest pain but the way you can go in and see brackets and profiles is awesome.
BUT...
There is one thing that I've seen that needs to be resolved and made mandatory for all State Qualifying Events. The people running the tournaments need to record and post the wrestlers actual weights. I think it is important part of the program and it also flags if there is anyone in violation of acceptable weight parameters
Here are the Subs that did not record this info:
Sub Dist 1 N and Sub Dist 4 S did not record any weights at all!
Sub Dist 4 N did not record actual weights. They only entered the weight class as the actual weight.
I hope that from here on out the people running these tournaments will take the time to make sure the information is taken and properly recorded.
Lance Tracy
I'm sorry I disagree. The actual weights shouldn't be displayed for everyone to see. If they make the weight that's all anybody needs to know.
Yes they should so you can see all the bad parents cutting weight.
Bad parents cut weight? I must be a good parent because I'm over by 40lbs.
At state qualifying events weight limits are strictly enforced. If someone wrestles outside of the acceptable parameters then they are not allowed to wrestle according to the rules.
As I have to to understand...
If someone is allowed to wrestle and they are not in compliance then that means they are not sanctioned and that would mean that weight class would not be sanctioned and NONE of the kids in that bracket would be allowed to advance onto the next state event.
So Yes
They need to make sure they record all weights and make sure the no one is over or UNDER the allowed limit.
We need to see actual weights. What if you got to Districts and there was a kid in your childs bracket that would cause all the wrestlers of that bracket to not be allowed to advance to state.
There would be some very upset people.
Please post the actual weights.
Before there was trackwrestling. They marked their arm - that was it - they made it or they did not make weight. No entry on a piece of paper - example 129.5 pounds. Seeing a number in the trackwrestling system has nothing to do with whether or not they made weight. So what are you trying to say about all the subs that did not record a weight? Come on just wrestle. The people doing the weigh-ins check the kids off a list different at each tournament - even if they are all using trackwrestling. Trackwrestling doesn't specify weigh-in rules.
My suggestion for trackwrestling tournaments. Have blank bout sheets at the tables - just in case the computers go down. Each table should have a match numbered offical bracket for each weight on their table.
The old fashion way does not need electricity, cables, modems. I like the track system - it just needs a paper and pencil back up plan at every tourmament. A stack of 50 blank bout sheets on each table can keep the tournament running without delay.
At state qualifying events weight limits are strictly enforced. If someone wrestles outside of the acceptable parameters then they are not allowed to wrestle according to the rules.
As I have to to understand...
If someone is allowed to wrestle and they are not in compliance then that means they are not sanctioned and that would mean that weight class would not be sanctioned and NONE of the kids in that bracket would be allowed to advance onto the next state event.
So Yes
They need to make sure they record all weights and make sure the no one is over or UNDER the allowed limit.
We need to see actual weights. What if you got to Districts and there was a kid in your childs bracket that would cause all the wrestlers of that bracket to not be allowed to advance to state.
There would be some very upset people.
Please post the actual weights.
So if they are under the weight class they are wrestling its wrong, I don't get it. I thought they had to be under the weight they are wrestling.
So Yes
They need to make sure they record all weights and make sure the no one is over or UNDER the allowed limit.
We need to see actual weights.
If you make weight your in. If your over your out. The actual weight is entertaining but not necessary.
no need to record actual weights.
if someone is cheating, they won't enter the right weight.
makes no sense to me.
paper back ups are a great idea smokey.
What is to far under weight? Never heard of that before.
I am not trying to be a jerk about this but ok I guess I will be. There are districts out there following and enforcing the rules and others that are not. I was informed over the last week that in order for a tournament to be a santioned event that it must follow all the rules and bylaws set forth by USAWKS.
Rule 4-4-2 No wrestler will be permitted to wrestle another person with a weight spread exceeding the following weights:
8 & under 15 pounds
10 & under 20 pounds
12 & under 25 pounds
14 & under 30 pounds
High School 35 pounds
So for example:
1. If a 230 pound high school kid wants to wrestle 285 HE IS NOT ALLOWED!
2. If a 210 pound high school kid wants to wrestle 250 HE IS NOT ALLOWED.
3. If a 185 pound 12U wants to wrestle 215 HE IS NOT ALLOWED.
We have had some of these happen to us this week. We were informed of the rule and had to change weight classes and therefore lost any seeding critera that we had over other wrestlers. This may of cost a wrestler a chance to go to state. Even though they wrestle this weight all year long in HS or MS and at other tournaments, we have to make changes come state time.
Here are some examples of where this rule is being violated:
Sub District 1 N
HS 250 pound class
Sub Dist 2 N
Hs 285 pound class
Sub District 3 E
HS 285 pound class
Sub District 3 W
HS 285 pound class
I personally think the enforcement of this rule is stupid but if some of us are going to have to play by these rules then ALL of us are going to play by these rules.
Call me a stickler...
Call me bitter...
Call me PISSED OFF!
Cause thats what I am right now.
We need to see actual weights. What if you got to Districts and there was a kid in your childs bracket that would cause all the wrestlers of that bracket to not be allowed to advance to state.
There would be some very upset people.
Please post the actual weights.
You are making one assumption that I believe affects this entire discussion.....that the "actual weights" are the ACTUAL WEIGHTS.
There are many things that can affect the weight recorded by the scale such as movement, leaning, etc. To my point, we weighed my son here at home Friday before heading to Sub-District weigh in and he was .3 under. This is a calibrated scale (and it's calibration checked regularly as we use for other things that require calibration) and we always take the average of (3) weigh-ins to allow for the restless kid factor. So, we get in the car, head to the weigh-in and he comes out and says "Dad, I am .2 over". I told him to just go around and back through, and this time make sure that he stood with his feet flat (like I had him at home) and that he stood perfectly still.
He came out 5 minutes later and said "We are good, I was .3 under like at home".
With that kind of variance, I would suggest that we could open up a huge can of worms when we start posting actual weights.
In my humble opinion, you either make weight or you don't, and that is responsibility of the tournament staff. As for your point about not allowing other wrestlers to advince, I know that is the rule. BUT, can anyone name a time where that was enforced. In 20+ years, I can't think of one.
Of course I could be wrong.........
Rule 4-4-2 No wrestler will be permitted to wrestle another person with a weight spread exceeding the following weights:
8 & under 15 pounds
10 & under 20 pounds
12 & under 25 pounds
14 & under 30 pounds
High School 35 pounds
So for example:
1. If a 230 pound high school kid wants to wrestle 285 HE IS NOT ALLOWED!
2. If a 210 pound high school kid wants to wrestle 250 HE IS NOT ALLOWED.
3. If a 185 pound 12U wants to wrestle 215 HE IS NOT ALLOWED.
We have had some of these happen to us this week. We were informed of the rule and had to change weight classes and therefore lost any seeding critera that we had over other wrestlers. This may of cost a wrestler a chance to go to state. Even though they wrestle this weight all year long in HS or MS and at other tournaments, we have to make changes come state time.
We posted at the same time, and like I said....."Of course I could be wrong........."
I guess I was wrong, and in your scenario this is indeed an issue!
Here are some examples of where this rule is being violated:
Sub District 1 N
HS 250 pound class
Sub Dist 2 N
Hs 285 pound class
Sub District 3 E
HS 285 pound class
Sub District 3 W
HS 285 pound class
I just want to clarifiy here...
ACCORDING TO TRACK WRESTLING INFO
These are examples of violations of this rule.
Well i know for sure that at least 12-15 kids did not wrestle because they were not making weight at D1 south subs and that was just in the 8 and under age group. So if you are saying that districts are cheating or not going by the rules then maybe you should petition the state board. That way they can form a crew to come to each sub and control the weighins. I bet that if that happens it would cost each wrestler at least 50 dollars just to wrestle at subs. I don't know if you think you got cheated or what but rules are rules move on already!
I am aware of the issue and I am looking into it.
Ned
Thank You Ned
Matman
I'm not saying thay anyone is purposely cheating...
I'm saying that maybe not all the rules are being followed to the same extent in each district and that is not fair
Well i have yet to find the RULE that states you must post the actual weights of the wrestlers. I am sure all they have to do is make weight to wrestle! There is nothing that says yes you must post the actual weights of all wrestlers on TW! So i guess i don't understand how the rules are not being enforced!
Read up a little on the thread matman1976.
matman1976,
The point that is being made (and I missed it the first time also) is in this part of an earlier post:
Rule 4-4-2 No wrestler will be permitted to wrestle another person with a weight spread exceeding the following weights:
8 & under 15 pounds
10 & under 20 pounds
12 & under 25 pounds
14 & under 30 pounds
High School 35 pounds
So for example:
1. If a 230 pound high school kid wants to wrestle 285 HE IS NOT ALLOWED!
2. If a 210 pound high school kid wants to wrestle 250 HE IS NOT ALLOWED.
3. If a 185 pound 12U wants to wrestle 215 HE IS NOT ALLOWED.
So, in this section of the rule and using the examples posted above, you can indeed be too light to wrestle a particular weight.
The issue that is being raised by the original poster is uniform enforcement of this policy, as I am sure that not everyone understands it correctly (again, I did not and I have been around this sport a long time).
And, the final point is that by posting the actual weights in TW someone could verfy this rule is being interpreted correctly, as it appears that last weekends subs MAY have had "some issues"
To that effect Ned posted "I am aware of the issue and I am looking into it".
This is an interesting topic, and shows how rules can sometimes create situations we did not anticipate.
Great catch BLT .......
Chuck
I have and you are accusing two districts of not going by the RULES! Well the rules do not state you must post wrestlers weights! And as for wrestling someone 15-20 pounds heavier i do not believed that happened! So it seems only one person in the whole state has a issue with this! So im saying there are bigger bones out there to chew on so its time to either wrestle or go home!
ok so you are saying that if a highschool wrestler weighs too much but him and another are in the heavyweight class that he automatically loses! For example kid weighs 245 and the other one weighs 281 he automatically losessouinds kinda like a loop hole to me " Oh he weighs 36 pounds more thatn me i don't have to wrestle! WOW! sounds as if BLT thinks he or someone got screwed! well at that age i bet if you think like that you probably need to find a different sport!
Ok! So if thats the rule then we need to make sure every kid in the state is signed up for the correct weight class! So wh have two weigh ins one to determine where you have to wrestle and one to make sure you make weight! I know of several kids in the 10 under division that moved up or down because of the competition and one is probably giving up 9 pounds, because he moved up to better stronger competition. And if im correct he went up two weight classes so hes wrong? Answer me that!
matman1976,
A couple clarifications from your posts:
For example kid weighs 245 and the other one weighs 281 he automatically losessouinds kinda like a loop hole to me "
No, the point is that the first kid should have been signed up for 250 and the second 285. If you look at the earlier posts the maximum allowable weight spread for kids wrestling at the High School age bracket is 35 pounds. For that reason, kids club has a 250 pound class inserted between 215 and 285,
So if thats the rule then we need to make sure every kid in the state is signed up for the correct weight class!
That is the point of this thread.
I know of several kids in the 10 under division that moved up or down because of the competition and one is probably giving up 9 pounds, because he moved up to better stronger competition. And if im correct he went up two weight classes so hes wrong? Answer me that!
Not an issue, because from the earlier post the max allowable weight spread for 10 & under is
20 pounds. In your scenario things are fine, but if you were 10u and weighed 109lbs you could not wrestle 10u 130.
Again matman you are missing the point!!! It is against the RULES according to the state you can not give up more than a certain amount of wt. You do however has you said have 2 weigh-ins to check and see if the RULES are being inforced. You have the entries with the desired wt class sent in. Then when a wrestlers goes to the weigh-in, the director(the rule enforcer person) can check and make sure they fall within the limits of the desired weight class. Being to light is basically the same as being over weight. You have to weigh a certain amout to wrestle....period. According to some of the weights that were recorded in TW some kids were to light (therefore..illegal) to wrestle a desired weight class. But yet they were allowed to wrestle by the director..and therefore something needs to be done. That is all that BLT was saying. Hope this helps enlighten you Mr. matman on this topic.
The whole point of this thread was equal ENFORCEMENT and education of the rules throughout the state.
If they do it this way here and a different way there and it effects a kid then its not fair.
I think this rule especially at the HS level is not right. These kids should be allowed to wrestle where they want but its not my say so its the rule.
The whole issue of bringing up track wrestling was this is the tool we have chosen to use so let's use it and make sure this does not happen to anyone else again.
I say let it go since we have already stated the state series and ANY changes now would not be right or fair and just make sure that we are aware of it and enforce it equally next year and let's just wrestle and finish this year out.
I say let it go since we have already stated the state series and ANY changes now would not be right or fair and just make sure that we are aware of it and enforce it equally next year and let's just wrestle and finish this year out.
Well said!
Matman, my son has routinely had to wrestle kids that have 20-50 lbs on him just to see mat time, so it does happen. Not complaining, just the way it is. Also, there is an example of a 205 wrestler at Wichita Classic that is now in 235 at sub-district.
If the weights are to far apart. Give them both a gold medal and have them wrestle exibition matches if they (the kids, coaches and parents) agree to such matches.
I think what matman is saying is that there is no rule about posting actual weight. There is a rule about making weight to high and to low no need for the extra info you either make it or not.
Exactly! Lucas you are exactly right its not D1 or D2 fault its the wrestlers fault for enering into the wrong weight! So i say if he/she wants to give up 40-50 pounds so be it! But you have to realize the people doing the weighins and such are VOLUNTEERS they don't get paid and maybe some of them do not know the rules! They are just being nice enough to volunteer to help! My point is exactly this we have so many things to do to even get the event ran and here you are wanting to add to our volunteers load! Most are new wrestling parents and are willing to work for free! But if we keep adding to thier load then next year we may not have enough volunteers! Now do you understand BLT!!!!!!!!!!
We can make as much paperwork for the qualifiers to fill out as you desire but for D2 we are already having problems finding clubs willing to host. This can all be handled by the host club without having to make another notation or check another box, whatever. Beyond that, it's just people being nosey.
You are exactly right SPORTO! If they wanna be nosey then volunteer to do it! MY LAST TWO CENTS!!!!!!!!!!!!!
This is a bunch of nonsense and this isn't a new topic by any means. I brought this up last year around this time and again about a month ago. If your going to use track wrestling then you should put up the actual weights. If you think it is being nosey, then I say so what. If you don't have anything to hide, then it isn't an issue anyway. It's the people who are doing things wrong who don't like to be caught or have to answer for what they are doing who are shaking in their booties. The weight rules are bogus in my opinion but if we gotta follow them then everyone else should too, no exceptions....
I dont think D2 is having any problems finding clubs to host.
What I don't understand about the qualifiers is this. If it is a STATE qualifier, then shouldn't all the qualifiers be ran the same. I have no problem with a friday only weigh in because it is probably the most efficient way to run a track wrestling tourny. But if one sub or district has a friday only weigh in then should they all. Or if one has a sat. morning weigh in then shouldn't they all. I know that there will be some kids that don't make weight for friday night that could have on sat. morning. So why should other districts have any advantage or disadvantage. Make them all the same. Or is this just another example of no organization in KS Kids Wrestling.
Exactly! So i say if he/she wants to give up 40-50 pounds so be it!
Matman
I dont know where we got crossed because we are saying the same thing.
EXCEPT
If they enforce different rules in different districts.
My message is what JDale is saying. Make them all the same!
Use pen and paper at the tables!
Let them wrestle up in weight!
Make them all wear polka dotted socks!
I do not care!!!!
Just make sure everyone does it the same!
How can you argue with that?
I think what matman is saying is that there is no rule about posting actual weight. There is a rule about making weight to high and to low no need for the extra info you either make it or not.
You are right here too Lucus..
But it was the system (Track Wrestling)that flagged the weight differential. So when it did, in the other districts, someone had to click the little ignore tab and keep on going!
So IF we are going to use this system then everyone needs to do it the same. Put in actual weights, no weights, or the weight class. Just do it the same so kids from one part of the state are not denied there chance to wrestle and others are allowed.
I dont want anyone to not get to wrestle. That is why we are needing to do it the same so if there is a rules violation then it can be addressed.
[quote=BLT]I am not trying to be a jerk about this but ok I guess I will be. There are districts out there following and enforcing the rules and others that are not. I was informed over the last week that in order for a tournament to be a santioned event that it must follow all the rules and bylaws set forth by USAWKS.
Rule 4-4-2 No wrestler will be permitted to wrestle another person with a weight spread exceeding the following weights:
8 & under 15 pounds
10 & under 20 pounds
12 & under 25 pounds
14 & under 30 pounds
High School 35 pounds
For some reason I thought this rule was for non qualifying tournaments to control what brackets can and can not be combined.
My suggestion for trackwrestling tournaments. Have blank bout sheets at the tables - just in case the computers go down. Each table should have a match numbered offical bracket for each weight on their table.
The old fashion way does not need electricity, cables, modems. I like the track system - it just needs a paper and pencil back up plan at every tourmament. A stack of 50 blank bout sheets on each table can keep the tournament running without delay.
I know this is a bit off topic at this point of the discussion, but this quote was brought up in this post to which I am offering my $.02.
Derby ran our tournament with blank bout sheets at the tables to keep the tournament running smoothly back in December. In retrospect it was a decision that I, as the tournament director, decided to make to help things run smoother and I believe that it did just that. The only problem with it is the HUGE headache I had afterwards entering all of the blank bout sheets into the trackwrestling system since my data-entry people were not accustomed to having to think through a bracket to make sure everything is entered properly. It took me several days to find and make sure I had each and every bout sheet entered into trackwrestling correctly.
On the flip side of that with the Kansas Novice Championships, I employed a different approach. I placed 2 computers with internet access in the main gym at the head table, one to enter all bout sheets from that gym and one to print off bout sheets for that gym as they came up. Had only a few glitches in the system (mainly due to operator error in entering bout sheets). And we had another setup similar for the Aux gym in a classroom close-by. Only on the larger brackets (32 man) did we really have to wait for bout sheets at the table for no more than 5 minutes. If the manpower and resources are available, I believe that this is the way Trackwrestling is supposed to work.
I dont think D2 is having any problems finding clubs to host.
Scott, there were no bidders for the subs in the north. Originally, Carroll was looking at hosting both qualifiers for that reason. Eventually the Andover Jags stepped up and volunteered. I believe this is the second year or more that we've had problems in the north finding clubs willing to host. Qualifiers have become too big of a hassle with TW for too little money.
gb wrestling fan NO ONE follows this rule. They use it only when the want to. Not enforced in non qualifying tournament. I guess not enforced in qualifying tournaments either. There is another thread that talks about this also.