Kansas Wrestling
Every year I notice brackets where by the “luck of the draw” kids either advance effortlessly out due to a bye(s) or find themselves on the hard/easy side of the bracket. For the most part this is just the nature of the beast but given several posts over the years including a present one “I don’t understand”, I would like some feedback if the following makes sense.

I understand life isn’t fair and I understand we can’t change everything but I also believe that every wrestler that has worked hard all season to make it to state in hopes of placing deserves the same right as any other wrestler in their bracket. Unfortunately sometimes, and it is no fault of anyone or any district, situations arise when seeds are left open (sometimes multiple seeds) allowing for a wrestler to advance unchallenged to the medal round. There are other, more frequent times, when one side of the bracket may be loaded and the other will be made up of less talented wrestlers. We all like to say, “the cream rises to the top” but unfortunately this isn’t always the case especially when all the cream is on one side. I am not advocating that we change any seeding or district assignments, what I am interested in is; does challenge matches make sense for 2nd place? I will be the first to say, my own son has benefited from the current rules. Years ago he placed 2nd but the other side was completely stacked. This year due to open seeds he will advance all the way to the semis. I can’t help think what everyone on the other side must think and how this is right. I can assure you Tanner does not want the bye(s) and possibly leave questions of whether he deserves to place automatically.

With that being said I believe by implementing challenge matches we bring some clarity to who deserves 2nd. This simple solution erases most questions and concerns on whether little Johnny got screwed by being in the wrong district at the wrong time.

I am not aware if this has ever been recommended to the state body but should there be interest in this I will make a recommendation this summer so this could be implemented next year. Your thoughts and feedback are welcomed.
I think the better question is what sort of mindset does a kid have to wrestle again after having their heartbroken after losing what may have been a very close match in the State Finals? That competitor is already at a disadvantage mentally coming in. I know it's easy to say "well x wrestler should have himself prepared mentally" but as we all know it's tough to get many young kids mentally ready to wrestle in the first place, especially when you get into the 10us and 8us.

Furthermore, I think it kind of takes away from the ambiance of setting up medal contender introductions, wrestling through the finals, and then having yet another round of challenges after that. I understand this is something that they do at some of the national kids tournaments, however that doesn't mean it is what is right or best for USAWKS.
I will quote Ricky Bobby....."If you ain't first, your last"....second and third is basically the same place, either way your not the champ.
Having a bye at State isn't an advantage IMO. That's a lot of time for my wrestler to hang out with his worse enemy. It sits on his shoulders.
(To Beeson) Tell that to the kid that gets the 4th place to go on to state instead of leaving district with nothing. 2nd, 3rd, 4th... it all matters to these kids and that is what its about! Im pretty sure that the kids that get 6th at state are going to be happy that they placed - even if they arent the champion! There are kids going to state that know they dont have a shot at 1st, but they are excited at the thought of placing somewhere on that 3-6 list!
I'm not saying to take away medals from the other five. I'm saying we don't need to challenge for 2nd. Champion and then everyone else is a placer. We don't need to find out if 2nd is truely better than 3rd. If so we need to challenge for 3rd, 4th, 5th, and 6th also. I think we need to leave it as it is.
Thanks for clearing that up. I thought you were saying that 2-6 just doesnt matter. I see now that you were referring to the challenge. I agree with you on that the challenge wouldnt be a good idea.
Chad, do you think receiving byes out to the medal round or possibly even to the final (slim I know) and given a medal is right? Especially if there are better kids getting beat out on the other side?
Originally Posted By: Jeff Smith
Chad, do you think receiving byes out to the medal round or possibly even to the final (slim I know) and given a medal is right? Especially if there are better kids getting beat out on the other side?



Perhaps this was not your intention, but what does kids getting beat out on one side of a bracket have to do with 2nd place challenge matches? If a kid gets beat out of a tournament he/she would have no opportunity to challenge for an upgrade in placing in the first place.

What you are talking about would really only be solved by seeding the State tournament, which I'm sure you can imagine would be a disaster of epic proportions. The only other alternative would be to allowed condensed brackets at the state tourny, which again would/could lead to issues.
Originally Posted By: Jeff Smith
Chad, do you think receiving byes out to the medal round or possibly even to the final (slim I know) and given a medal is right? Especially if there are better kids getting beat out on the other side?


I don't like having a wrestler get a bye out to the semifinals, as I am sure the wrestler does not like it either. Very few of the Brackets have this problem. It is not the kids fault. They did everything they were asked, showed up and wrestle. Their is no shame in that. I would rather see that happen then for the greater number of finalists having to prove themselves. The champion is still the champion.
I do not like the idea of a challenge match. One kid just lost a match in the finals and the other kid is just coming off a win, who do you think has the adv.? I have seen it from all sides. At USJOC my son was the #2 seed and took 3rd. He challenged the kid who took 2nd (#1 seed) and lost in a close match. At Middle School State one of my wrestlers took 4th then was challenged by the kid who took 5th (who had beat him earlier) and lost and then did not make the KS National Duel Team. At the same tournament another of our wrestlers took 5th then challenged and took 4th and made the team. Until they have a challenge format at High School State Tournament we should keep it as is.
Now, if you want to seed the State Tournament that might be an idea. Start with #1 vs #4 then seed the rest of the bracket.
I hate the 2nd place challenge concept. If you could gather the data I am guessing you will find that you might as well hand Mr. Third place his 2nd place award. Especially for kids.
2 and 3 are on the same side of the bracket at state anyway and if 3 is better he will win in the semis. Years ago D1 did it that way (at subs or district, can't remember which) but I don't think it made alot of difference so they quit. If someone had a bad match in the semis at district they have a chance to make up for it the next weekend. Good luck to everyone this weekend!
Why we are at it let make all matches at stae the best 2 out of 3 just in case someone has a bad match or gets caught in something goofy.
Originally Posted By: fireman95
2 and 3 are on the same side of the bracket at state anyway and if 3 is better he will win in the semis. Years ago D1 did it that way (at subs or district, can't remember which) but I don't think it made alot of difference so they quit. If someone had a bad match in the semis at district they have a chance to make up for it the next weekend. Good luck to everyone this weekend!


State brackets are not seeded so 2 and 3 are not always on the same side of the bracket. You could have your best 2 wrestlers on the same side of the bracket it is just luck of the draw.
It has always been the luck of the draw. No reason to chance it. This year you are on the weak side next year on the strong side. Wrestle your best and no one can question it. If we challenge for 2nd then we need to challenge for every other place. Not sure we all have a week for state.
Sorry bout that I was talking bout district challenges.
Until districts can be re-done, and the seeding can be done fair yea I think their should be. I understand everyone that said it shouldn't but I seen some kids this year that just got seeded like a cake walk and I seen severals kids get seeded #2 or #3 that didn't have a very good record at all. It didn't affect my son but I did see 2 kids that was seeded over my son and he had pinned them all year in local tourneys. My sons seeding was not near as bad as some of the other kids from our club. So you got look at this both ways should a kid get 3rd when he could of easy beat the kid for 2nd but he got robbed on his seeding???
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Do challenge matches for 2nd make sense at state? - 03/22/10 11:25 PM
I ran this by my son (because he is the one who is doing all of the wrestling) and he thinks it would be cool. Let the kids vote. I'm yes and no. Yes if we get 3rd and no if we get 2nd. LOL
I don't see what their is to lose..Like they say let the best man win!!!
challenges are ok, but be careful that we aren't trying to prepare the path for the child!!
Originally Posted By: Beeson
...second and third is basically the same place, either way your not the champ.


I agree from a loss record there isn't any difference and you are also correct neither are a champion, but I disagree from that point forward. Ask any kid what they would prefer? Ask any older competitor if they were prouder to have been a runner-up or a consolation champion at the kid’s level, high school level, colligate level or even beyond?

Rotating district match ups is a good idea, I just think it can be improved on.

Questions, for those brackets that have low numbers, we round robin them, why? Why aren’t they seed and then wrestled out? (BTW, I agree with the round robin bracket)
Originally Posted By: Jeff Smith
Rotating district match ups is a good idea, I just think it can be improved.


I agree. I think we should draw the match ups for each age division after Districts. Example: 8U D2 vs. D4, 10U D2 vs. D1, 12U D2 vs. D3, 14U D3 vs. D4, and High School D4 vs. D1. These could be drawn out of a hat after Districts to lessen the temptation of positioning for a better spot in the bracket.
Originally Posted By: Beeson
Originally Posted By: Jeff Smith
Rotating district match ups is a good idea, I just think it can be improved.


I agree. I think we should draw the match ups for each age division after Districts. Example: 8U D2 vs. D4, 10U D2 vs. D1, 12U D2 vs. D3, 14U D3 vs. D4, and High School D4 vs. D1. These could be drawn out of a hat after Districts to lessen the temptation of positioning for a better spot in the bracket.


I agree, there is still some positioning going on in districts that can't be avoided until no one knows what districts they will face. Then everyone should go to win without trying to get the "better side" of the bracket.
Originally Posted By: Teamroper
I agree, there is still some positioning going on in districts that can't be avoided until no one knows what districts they will face. Then everyone should go to win without trying to get the "better side" of the bracket.

Am I reading this right? Some kids/parents/coaches will throw a match at Distrcits to get opposite side of the bracket from the perceived best wrestler in the State from their opposing District match-up for State? If that what you are implying and it is happening, that is a shame.
It is and has happened in the past.
Track Wrestling gives alot of information and people use it to try to get an edge.

I hope it blows up in their face personally.
I knew a young man and a father who once conspired and injury defaulted the wrestlers Dist 1 finals match so he could be on the opposite side of a wrestler who defeated the kid earlier. When they got home they found out the rival was sick and didn't even wrestle at districts. smile
Beeson, - what are saying? if your not the champion it doesn't matter? - that doesn't make sense - why is their a podium? - why are their any other placements given then? Tradition has always permitted that other wrestlers are recognized for their placements in a tournament. With that being said, why wouldn't you want the placements to be accurate?, especially with the way our state brackets are set-up. Many of the national tournaments do this anyhow, I'm not so sure that the challenge matches are an easy thing for a kid - but it does make for a real 2nd place. We have been in that spot 2 times(lost both times). Also been in the position were we got 2nd and had never beaten the 3rd place kid (we just got luck of the draw)Challenge matches left out any doubt because of bracketing. Tough deal for my kid, but it is the right thing to do.
I think most people that have been around many tournaments that have challenge matches believe that there is a significant advantage to the challenging wrestler and that they win a higher percentage of those matches than they would under normal circumstances.

Therefore they believe that challenge matches do not reflect the correct order of placement any better than not allowing challenges in the first place.
Butcher has the best idea - let the kids vote on it - I wonder if that could be done?
i had a parent ask one year," should we lose and get second to be on the opposite side of "johnny"? i said "hell no, if you want to be the best you have to beat the best, first match, last match it doesn't matter!"

there is ONLY 1 champion the rest is "luck of the draw"

there is no difference between 2nd or 3rd- they each have one loss

there is no difference between 4th and 5th they each have 2 losses

there is 1 difference between 6th and everyone who went home early- 6th has 3 losses, everyone else only has 2.

sorry if that sounds tough, WELCOME TO THE HA CLUB!
1st place = Winner, Champion, etc.
2nd place = 1st place loser.
3rd place = 2nd place loser.
4th place = 3rd place loser.
5th place = 4th place loser.
6th place = 5th place loser.

I agree with Beeson.
Very few tournaments are seeded "perfectly". A few examples:
1. Tulsa Nationals - based on how you have placed in Roller event carries alot of weight.
2. NCAA basketball...the tournament is not based on the best 64-65teams but on who won their conference (similar to our 4 districts going against each district - 1 district may have the 4 best kids)
3. NFL - The Cardinals could never seem to make the playoffs because they could not win the division over Dallas, PHI, NY.

As much as my competitive nature likes the challenge, I'm just not sold that it really gives you a better outcome than our current structure. Bottom line, the only way to really find out is to wrestle a 16 man round robin, which is not possible & still may not give you a clear cut ranking. The only question is this: Does a challenge make the outcome better?

What about the kid that took 3rd, beaten by 2nd, but not by 1st..should he be able to challenge the 1st place kid? Maybe I'm wrong, but at some point, this just doesnt make sense.

One thought that hasnt been mentioned.....under the same thought process, if 5th get to challenge 4th, you could have a kid that thought he was going to districts or state then looses and is out?

This sport is a tough sport with tough lessons, but wow...?????
Originally Posted By: birddog
Butcher has the best idea - let the kids vote on it - I wonder if that could be done?

And we could have them vote if they want to stay up all night the night before the tournament watching movies or playing video games too. No, lets leave the decision making to the adults!
let them stay up late, and eat pizza, play video games, but don't give them medals at the end of the tournament.

let the adults wrestle for seeds, if your dad beats up his dad, you get the number 1 seed, and so on.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Do challenge matches for 2nd make sense at state? - 03/23/10 09:08 PM
Lets vote on letting the kids vote. lol
let's play beer pong, and the winning team get to decide.

BUT.........let's make it true double elimination beer pong, just so we know who the real champion is. i'm just sayin'.
I still think the kid with the highest GPA gets seeded first. Now, if my son wasn't pulling straight A's in the classroom, I might have to rethink my thought process.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Do challenge matches for 2nd make sense at state? - 03/24/10 01:24 AM
The kids can vote when thay are at state weigh-in. Who wants to argue with that? It's simple!

name: BUTCHER

age: 8

weight: 55

yes / no: yes
How about the child does what the adult tells them to. Even more simple. Do the kids get to vote on what goes on at the Brawler practice? laugh
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Do challenge matches for 2nd make sense at state? - 03/24/10 01:38 AM
IM just making a suggestion on how it could be done. I dont care but my son wants to be challenged if he gets second.
I think your son's last name probably evens the field! I have a cousin with the last name Killer! smile
Originally Posted By: MarkButcher
IM just making a suggestion on how it could be done. I dont care but my son wants to be challenged if he gets second.

If he gets 2nd, I would say that he has already been challenged.
Originally Posted By: Paratroop
I think your son's last name probably evens the field! I have a cousin with the last name Killer! smile

Bronson,

Are you sure your last name isn't Killer, 'cause you are killin' me? The best of luck to all the Sunflower kids wrestling at State. Sean, please tell all the STA kids who made it this far that I will be rooting for them as well. My son and I are extremely fortunate to have been a part of two clubs as special as these two are.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Do challenge matches for 2nd make sense at state? - 03/24/10 02:29 AM
He said that it would make him feel better about himself knowing he is a true second by giving the other kid a chance.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Do challenge matches for 2nd make sense at state? - 03/24/10 02:45 AM
I am happy either way....I'm out!
Mark,

From a parent/coach/wrestler that has been involved in this sport since the age of eight, I tend to try to make light of things when I can. There are times that I am dead serious, but most of the time I realize how hard it is for kids to compete in a sport this tough. I am sure that you and your son are extremely happy to be going to the State Championship tournament next weekend. If he finishes 2nd, he has earned 2nd. He shouldn't have to prove to anyone that he is better than 3rd (unless he threw a match at Districts to get on the opposite side of the bracket from the best wrestler in the State like I have come to understand happens).

My son just finished up his ninth year of wrestling. Before this year, he had made it to State two out of the last three years winning three matches at those two State tournaments. He physically and mentally developed well beyond where he was last year, and became a better technical wrestler as well. It showed as he went 53-17 this year including his Jr High record. He graciously bowed out going 0-2 at Districts in one of the toughest District brackets in the State, competing to the best of his ability all the way through. He would have been more than thrilled to place 6th at State this year, let alone 2nd.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Do challenge matches for 2nd make sense at state? - 03/24/10 03:30 AM
we are new to this sport. This is only our first year in the open division. My son got to challenge for second at the Kickoff and I asked him what he thaught about it. Im giving his opinion. He voted yes, not me. I think that more kids are aginst it then for it so i dont think mutch will come from all this. 4 out of 5 kids i asked said no. (not counting my son) Only one was intrested in the idea of someone challenging him for second.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Do challenge matches for 2nd make sense at state? - 03/24/10 03:33 AM
Its a hard one! crazy
i believe taking third is more enjoyable than taking second... yes it is great to go to the finals, but thats why they are the FINALS... in other words they should be the final match and all challenge matches do is put a wrestler who is sad because he lost in the finals against a kid who just fought his way on the backside and is fired up
NO! First is all that matters. Good Luck!

Jim Ryan
Seeding sounds very difficult. What about the kid that has grown and goes up a weight class just before subs. I don't think wrestling for a "true 2nd" makes sense either. Do we then wrestle for a "true 4th???"

P.S. My son came in with a 4th place finish, beat two firsts, a second and a third on the way to a third place finish. There is no better adrenaline rush.
No!
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