Folks,
I have been asked to lead a committee to look at if we need to have a clear definition of Novice and then make a recommendation to the state board. The committe has representatives from each of the 4 districts. The people on the committee are listed below.....
District 1: Shawn Budke, Sean McCarthy
District 2: Melissa Shoaf, Charlie Knox, Sarah Hartley
District 3: Lance Engel
District 4: Greg Pelland, Chris Normandin
The committee's goal is to look at a variety of options of how we (the state) would define Novice, look at the pros and cons, and then make a recommendation to the state board. Our intent is to present the options to the state board and then eventually to the state body for a vote.
This topic is designed to get your input and ideas so we can take them into consideration. Please do not turn this into a gripe session about individuals that should or should not be wrestling in Novice tournaments. Please provide constructive ideas so we can move ahead as a state organization.
Feel free to post your comments and ideas on here, PM me, or contact any of the district reps.
We plan on keeping you updated on our progress and the ideas we collect as we move forward in this process.
Thanks for your time and any inputs you may have.
Shawn Budke
I think truly 1st yer wrestlers.
nov·ice [ nóvviss] (plural nov·ic·es) noun : Definition: 1. beginner: somebody who is beginning or learning an activity and has acquired little skill in it
Even it their 1st year was 4-5 novice tournament with no open places. They know more than a 1st year wrestler, what to expect at the tournament, what it sounds like feels like and all the other stuff that goes on.
That also de-rails the "well my wrestler is a second year kids that is really advanced for a novice"
Give them their first year, then start taking your lumps like it used to be, there are still plenty of venues for b and even C brackets.
First year only would definitely make it easier to understand and to enforce. I guess you just have to hope that after that you go to tournaments that have enough C wrestlers that you don't get your butt kicked every time. If everybody were abiding by that same guideline, there would probably be more true C wrestlers at the opens to compete against.
I have an 8-year-old who has wrestled 6 tournaments now over two seasons (2 opens listed as D class and 4 novices) and the best he has done is second. He got a second at Rossville entered as a D and his bracket included only D and C wrestlers. His two wins came against other Ds, not against the C wrestler for the gold. So while he has placed at an open now, it was primarily in competition with novice level wrestlers.
The worst feeling in the world for a new wrestling kid and parent is to get on that mat for the first time and get truly manhandled by a kid who either has much more non-tournament experience (i.e. an older sibling who wrestles), who wrestled a full season already, or who has enough natural talent to be wrestling C right from the start. The kid who wins easily in that situation doesn't learn much from the experience either. I understand wanting your kid to experience some success, we have been on the receiving end of a lot of losses between my two boys so far and it's certainly not as fun as winning. But the spirit of competition also means that if a kid is good enough to wrestle C from the start, maybe that's where s/he should start. Mine will do maybe two more novices this year and will continue to enter as a novice at his opens unless he wins somewhere, then we will probably enter as a C.
i think we all have to take a step back and look at this as a big picture. our goals are to produce these kids to get to the highschool level. if the kids are not having fun they will not want to come back. if they dont come back our numbers will take a hit. the way it is now we have very few complaints. yes every year there are 1 or 2 tournaments that someone complains about a kid. novice is a beginners to get them ready for the next level. my 2nd year 6 year old is what i call and in betweener. he gets his butt kicked at the opens. he has wrestled 1 novice and won. had one close match and ran one move. had one coach complaining about him using a cradle. he ran the move cause thats just about all he knows. he tries to bull his way and it works in novice but not opens. i say stop the crying let the young kids have fun and get the open kids ready for the next level. get the kids ready for jr. high. get the jr high kids ready for highschool.
A 10 year old novice will catch on a lot faster then a 4 or 5 year old novice. I think 2 years is reasonable for the young ones. Top of 8 and up should't need more then a year.
My first boy (Mark) was a first year novice on the bottom of 6 and under. He went to 7 tournaments and got 1st place 4 times, 2nd place once, and 4th at the Championships. Clearly we didn't think he needed another year in novice but some people did.
My next son (Max) will start novice next year and i think he will need 2 years in novice. Some kids have it and some don't. Bottom of 8 on down need 2 years.
Mark Butcher
Leave it like it is! Each tournament should be allowed to determine what is or isn't a novice in their view. If you don't like their definition, then don't go! As Bockover said, there are few complaints and the system is NOT broken.
i don't think the rule needs changed at all. the rule needs enforced. tournament directors need to post the rule on their flyer. the club directors need to enforce the rule within their club. what are we going to do? pull a kid's usa card because he knows more moves than your kid? my son has learned alot more than your typical 6 yr old wrestler, but he can't think and perform at the same time. he hates to lose (his best finish is 2nd, and holds a 6-6 record, but he will not wrestle a novice tournament after this year. if he can't place at opens he will learn to get better. parents/ coaches be careful novice tournaments produce novice wrestlers. i've seen kids wrestle for 5 years in novice tournaments, they will always be novice until they are forced to learn how to compete, and challenge themselves to get better.
All good points..maybe just 1st year isn't good enough.
What about so many sanctioned novice tournaments? Like Derby Valley Center...etc that the kids are tracked and are allowed to go to 6 or 8 or some number before they aren't considered novice for those anymore.
1-2 years based on how a kid picks things up. The longer a kid is left novice the longer you prevent him from being able to compete in top level open competition. However physical and mental handicaps should also factor in. Can you honestly tell me a kid with down syndrome who loves to come participate would be forced to go open after a time limit someone has set for them to be novice expires? Or what about the kid with 1 leg that loves to compete with little success? Do we demand that those 2 situations fall in the same criteria of time? Surely there must be exceptions a club can use common judgement on.
It is very hard to put a number on this. just think of it this way. How many times do you have to show a kids a setout? Some of them learn the 3rd try some after 20 times still do it wrong.
My son got compained about 2 years ago.It was his 2nd year. He was running a few moves on a very new kid.I had to tell him what moves to use and where to put his hands.The coach we where against got very mad and said we should have just pinned the kid and got it over.Where do the kids learn in this,win quick thing.In his 2nd year we did open and novice as much as we could. He won more open tournaments than novice.
It come down to how good the kid learns.I think here in the US we put to much emphasis on trying to be equal.
This is a tough subject. I too have a 6 year old in his second year, however, he is struggling. He went to his first novice of the season this past weekend and it was a little easier, but still had to fight to get 2/4 wins. I think that coaches/parents need to be responsible for not letting second year kids go to these if they are successful at opens and that doesn't mean they have to win them ALL to not qualify for novice that means if they are placing don't let them in. I know for a fact some people use the excuse that their kids are 2nd year and that is all they take in to consideration. That isn't fair to the 2nd year kids that are still struggling.
If my son was having more success and more wins in opens and still not placing then I certainly would hold him out of novice, but that just isn't the case. That said we do not put a lot of emphasis on winning just that he has fun and does his best.
I think this is a great idea but do agree with some I've read, I don't think theres a problem with the rules. Its developing a way to police it properly. I really don't have any ideas on how to do it? I do believe that it falls into the laps of the coaches to determine novice or open. It can't be left to the parents after all no one wants to see thier kids go from winning in novice to lossing in open.
From what I've seen some kids and parents look at it as something that they have to do. It should be thier goal and privledge to be an open wrestler. Thats where they should want to be. If a club has a wrestler thats wrestling novice and has been for a while and is successful and doesn't move up its the club that should be held responsible
Novice is a measurement of skill not a measurement of tenure!!!
There is really no way to decide, track, and enforce who should wrestle novice.
If you say ok, if you take 1st or 2nd five times then you have to go open...
Well at some age and weights that is going to be after 5 tournaments just based on entry numbers.
We all know the novice status is abused by some.
I think this committiee can make some suggestions but at the end of the day its up to the club to enforce the right decission for their wrestler.
The thing that makes me laugh the most is when people are wrestling novice and they are clearly beyond that level, do you not think that everyone around you notices what you are doing?
How embarrassing!!!
I also hope we don't come up with some sort of "intermeadiate" classification!
There is plenty of ways to get your novice wrestler plenty of mat time as a C or D ranked open wrestler.
Be realistic when you sign them up for a tournament.
On the weekends of Maize or Salina when you know they are only going to run one bracket per age and weight then you have 3 choices: take the weekend off, go and expect to wrestle thru the back side of the bracket, or have coaches willing to invest time in your "intermeadiate" wrestlers and split your club up and go to 2 different tournaments!
"But we don't have enough coaches" or "one kid is an open stud and our other is just learning and we don't want to split up every weekend"
Hey I hear what your saying and I get it! I understand there are tough choices you have to make!
But if you want them to be a better wrestler and grow with the sport and love the sport then take them to a smaller tournament where they will find kids with similar skill level and hopefully a round robin bracket. They will have plenty of chances to run into those other kids throught the season.
At the end of the day its up to the club to do what is best for their wrestlers and do whatever it takes to make them a successfull open wrestler who loves the sport.
Is that easy? Nope!
Is there exceptions to EVERY rule? Yep!
The underlying factor is coaches need to communicate with parents.Once a 3rd year wrestler struggles in open parents want to drop to novice so their kids win. I like to see my kid win as much as anyone,but this is the wrong approach.The reason a kid loses is he still reaches back on bottom,he looks into a half,he relies on headlocks as an only takedown,etc.A 3rd yr. wrestler may out strength or still overcome these flaws in novice where kids are still learning stance,penetration steps,etc.The flaws then never get corrected.Open a wrestler wont have success until they actually correct flaws.We look for improving not winning novice olympics.Old habits and tendancies are hard to break until they must be broken.
Thank you all so much for your thoughts and input. Keep it coming. We knew this is going to be a challenge to get our arms around and to be honest I am not sure if there is a great solution.
We greatly appreciate the feedback so please keep it coming.
Shawn Budke
I have one question that might help clear thing up for me anyways.
What is the driver for this "classification" of novice wrestlers?
Is it to keep the "better" novices out of novice tourneys?
Novice tourney weren't as available when my boys started. I personally thought it made then better without them.
I was selective in the tourneys I went to how close, B and C brackets possible, try to make a good experience win lose or draw. That was our first year. Then the second went to a few more and learned what it took to win in the opens.
I know that if my youngest son got a medal at every one he went to when he was younger and learning, that he wouldn't have had the drive to get better.
Everyone need to realize that walking away without a medal and just taking a kicking can change for the good also, when the time is right though.
This is how I look at novice... a wrestler that has wrestled 2yrs or less. You are no longer Novice if you have wrestled at and won an Open tournament no matter if you are a 1st or 2nd year wreslter. If the parents and coaches feel that you are ready for Open tournaments it is encouraged if you are successful then you do not go back to the Novice side of things.
If you are a wrestler that only wants to practice or go to one or two tournaments a season then you need to be encouraged to attend additional tournaments or you will never feel ready to move on to the Open tournaments. Some young wrestlers if their parents are just getting involved don't feel rushed to attend many tournaments. It is not like baseball or basketball...when you sign up to play either of those sports you have a set schedule with 2 games a week and a tournament at the end of the season.
In wrestling it is up to the parents to get their kids on the mat and wrestling!
perfect statement BLT, this is not easy. and shame on the parents, coaches, clubs, who don't get that message acrossed clearly. this is the best sport in the world, but it will never be EASY. someone else said it best, here in the good old U.S.A we have tried to make everything equal. well it's not and it won't ever be. no matter how many committees or rules you put in place, somethings are not equal. NO TWO MEN ARE CREATED EQUAL. Committee... set some guidelines, tournament directors make them clear, coaches take charge of your club, parents challenge your kids, everyone act with honesty and integrity and let's move on.
I don't believe you can put a specific time limit on novice. It is up to the coaches in the kids programs to decide if it is time for a kid to be moved up to advanced. In years past I have seen kids get moved up to advanced halfway through the year, and we have also had kids that stay in novice for 3 years. It is definitely not right to move a kid that is having problems in advanced back down to novice for some wins and to boost confidence, boost their confidence in your own room! I have always thought it helps a kid out to get moved up into advanced, they might lose more matches, but they will improve faster. Everyone knows that you can move a 4,5, or 6 year old, 37-44 pounder into advanced and they will be wrestling mostly novice kids anyway. Its also easier to leave kids in the slower moving novice practice for them to get the basics drilled into them, and enter them in advanced tournaments, you don't have to move them out of your novice practice just because they are in advanced tournaments. Good luck putting a definition on novice, we have tried to do this for years, and it hasn't happened yet. Get all the board members on the same page first, some of them don't understand novice!
Committee... set some guidelines,
Therein lies the first problem. As is obvious, no two people can agree on the/a definition. I have real questions if any definition of a novice could be enacted without amending the constitution, not just the by-laws. If a constitutional amendment is necessary then it would require a two-thirds majority to enact. We have trouble getting that kind of majority for things much less complicated and controversial.
tournament directors make them clear, coaches take charge of your club, parents challenge your kids, everyone act with honesty and integrity and let's move on.
And there is the second problem. It is always going to be an 'on your honor' type of system. So there is still going to be the same amount of people abusing it then, as there is now. Those that think Cathy Juby or a tournament director is going to be going around checking entries to see how long a kid has been carded, are silly!
Leave it like it is! Each tournament should be allowed to determine what is or isn't a novice in their view. If you don't like their definition, then don't go! As Bockover said, there are few complaints and the system is NOT broken.
my proposal for people to do what is right for them, isn't much different than what you say here sportsfan. I AGREE if it ain't broke don't fix it.
the only difference is tournaments don't determine much of anything at this time, the parents do.
what are we going to do? pull a kid's usa card because he knows more moves than your kid?
seem like i read this somewhere else????
Those that think Cathy Juby or a tournament director is going to be going around checking entries to see how long a kid has been carded, are silly!
say it isn't so.....sportsfan and I seem to be on the same page.
With all our wonderful technology and the definition of novice we should be able to track all wrestlers that have a wrestling card. Most tournaments use track wrestling for their tournaments. Track wrestling keeps profiles on wrestlers with placements etc. Why cant we use this system and work with Track wrestling to categorize by the stats it keeps. Length of time, # of placements and types of tournaments(open/novice). Then when the tournament makes brackets track can flag on open wrestler that is in a novice bracket. It would take everyone using Track wrestling and of course time for kids to be tracked. Just an idea sure it has flaws but what doesn't. At least computers aren't biased or lie.
I heard an Idea recently...
If you do decide to track it by just the number of years they wrestle then maybe you could do it by USA Wrestling card number
1st year the card number starts with an N
exp:N11458...
2nd (and or 3rd) year kids with an I for say intermediate
exp: I11458...
And everyone else has an E for experienced
exp: E11458...
So that way track wrestling could track by card number and so could clubs wanting to police it that dont use track wrestling.
When they sign up they must send a list of USA Card numbers along with the entries.
Now if a club is purposely changing I's to N's then you can hold the club accountable.
I dont know how else to track and inforce
But I still dont think we should track novice by tenure.
All it would take is adding to the card - 'member since'. Not real hard in today's age. Cards could be checked during skin checks.
All it would take is adding to the card - 'member since'. Not real hard in today's age. Cards could be checked during skin checks.
That is, if you believe "novice" is a length of time.
thank god my son won his first open tournament this weekend in Chanute. we will not be wrestling novice ever again. our club has 0 novice wrestlers from here on out. i think. now we wont have to get yelled at by anyone on this topic.
I saw a kid hit a spladdle off a shot which he was setting up by letting the opponent in on his leg (missed the pin but scored) after that he threw in the legs, power half and stretch out a kid in a novice tournament - that young man is about ready to move on to open even if he is a 1st or 2nd year wrestler. You can fool some of the coaches but not all of them.
I saw a kid hit a spladdle off a shot which he was setting up by letting the opponent in on his leg (missed the pin but scored) after that he threw in the legs, power half and stretch out a kid in a novice tournament - that young man is about ready to move on to open even if he is a 1st or 2nd year wrestler. You can fool some of the coaches but not all of them.
I would give him another year in novice. After all he didn't pin the kid with the spladdle.
Novice can not be determined by any length of time or placements in tournaments. Many novice tournaments only use round robins. Some open tournaments could have the same thing in their age and weight.
Coaches could have the novice kid wrestle 10 or so novice matches.If a kid wins 80% of his matches in novice he should move up.
I got additional confirmation this weekend that it's not simply enough to look at records.
My 11 yo (who by a fortuitous birthday is still in 10 and under) wrestled at SFT Sunday. Only two kids in his bracket, so they went best of 3. He got second. Or last. Depending on how you look at it. Either way he got beat twice. On paper it's a second place. In reality, he still has a LONG way to go before he can protect himself against B or C wrestlers.
My 8 yo, however, won his first novice. Against two other kids and there were no pins. So does winning two matches on points mean he is ready to move up permanently? Maybe. But we need a little more mat time to know for sure. We are definitely doing some D entries at bigger opens this year so we can see how he does against a bigger pool of kids. So far I think he has only wrestled 5 different kids this year.
As a parent, I really do like round robins for the novice wrestlers. The goal for us is more matches, and round robins make that more likely for a new wrestler.
I got additional confirmation this weekend that it's not simply enough to look at records.
My 11 yo (who by a fortuitous birthday is still in 10 and under) wrestled at SFT Sunday. Only two kids in his bracket, so they went best of 3. He got second. Or last. Depending on how you look at it. Either way he got beat twice. On paper it's a second place. In reality, he still has a LONG way to go before he can protect himself against B or C wrestlers.
My 8 yo, however, won his first novice. Against two other kids and there were no pins. So does winning two matches on points mean he is ready to move up permanently? Maybe. But we need a little more mat time to know for sure. We are definitely doing some D entries at bigger opens this year so we can see how he does against a bigger pool of kids. So far I think he has only wrestled 5 different kids this year.
As a parent, I really do like round robins for the novice wrestlers. The goal for us is more matches, and round robins make that more likely for a new wrestler.
According to win percentages your 11yo is -2 and still has a ways to go before becoming open.
Your 8yo is +2 if he wins 6 out of his next 8 you may want to evaluate the whole novice classification.
A win to loss ratio is the best option in my mind. You may have kids that have wrestled for 3 and 4 years that have not won, or won very few novice matches. And on the other hand you may have a first year kid that has won 18 out of 20. Which one do you think needs to be novice?
so if my kid wrestles nothing but novice tournaments wins 80% of his matches but still cant put a half on right or run actual moves he doesnt need to be novice any longer. so no i dont think thats the best way to present it. next.
I think we are wasting a lot of time considering the very few problems that we have with "self policing" the novice tourneys. So a kid that you feel like "shouldn't be wrestling novice tourneys" kicks your kids' butt, so what, he got a better color medal than your kid. I promise you, noone will remember who won the 6u 49 lb Valley Center Novice bracket in 2011.
Our goal should be to continually tell our kids that it starts to count in HS, and keep them out for this great sport/life lesson instruction. And even if they never turn out to be a state champ, placer, or qualifier, we can NOT allow them to quit, as that is giving up, and that ain't what this sport is about, and it ain't what life is about. We have to keep kids out, no matter how many times they get their tails handed to them.
I think that as a coach or parent, it is up to me to determine when it is time to throw my kid to the wolves.
Once a kid starts having success at novice tourneys, he should be put in some open brackets. But I should also be allowed to take him to tourneys where he can see some success.
We just had an incident at the Sante Fe Trail Novice Tourney this weekend. One of our 10u girls who won 2 matches all last year and yet to win one this year faced a 3rd year 10u Trailhand wrestler who has placed 4 times dating back to Feb '09. When the parent approached the coach/director, she was lied to and told he was a 2nd year wrestler(TW proved otherwise) then was told he was too busy to deal with it. This girl broke her Radius in her wrist and is done for the season. With this happening I would not be surprised if I don't see her back at my club next year. Such a shame.
Late last year a novice kids didn't sprawl quick enough and my son hooked his fingers on his leg and injured hid hand really bad. Them damn novice are just going to hurt the open kids!....lol
SFT injury, sad to see but this is a contact sport. Without knowing the details I would think novice vs open kids has a ton to do with it. My son has never wrestled in a novice tournament, but has wrestled a tons of novice kids. He is as physical as he can be, and never has broken anything on anyone else.
The sad part is coaches, parents, and tournament director not handling the issue whatever the outcome it never gets better ignoring it.
Also wish a speedy recovery to the injured wrestler!
Folks,
I want to provide you an update to what the committee has been doing on this idea of defining Novice. I am pasting the info below as it is the report that I sent Matt Treaster. He will provide this report to the state board this weekend at their meeting.
If you read it closely you will see the "Way ahead" for the committee. This is based on a discussion I had with Matt as we were trying to get an idea of where the state board wanted us to go with the committee. Please look at the options and their descriptions. Most of these were derived from the great feedback you all gave on this forum. We tried to capture the variety of ideas that you all submitted.
As I see it, the crux of the problem is that Novice is ability based and therefore that is subjective criteria. It is hard to give prescriptive, set in stone rules in this case and end up doing what is best for the kids (this is my opinion). Therefore we tried to give a wide variety of options.
The bottomline is that you get to have a direct say in what we as the state do on this issue. We will discuss the options at the District meetings this winter/early spring, provide the state board feedback, and then if warranted present the options and vote on them at the state body meeting in Oct 2010.
Please look this over and provide your thoughts and feedback to myself, your district reps, or discuss ideas on here.
Thank you for your help.
What we have done......
1. Stood up the committee.
2. Reviewed the Georgia rules.
3. Started a topic on the USAWKS talk forum to solicit thoughts, ideas, opinions, etc.
4. Developed 4 Options (will explain in more detail later) 5. Received feedback from about have the committee.
6. Committee members have talked with other members of their district.
Explanation of Options......
1. Option 1: Do Nothing
Currently Kansas has not rules, guidelines, etc for defining Novice. The determination of Novice wrestlers is left to club directors, coaches, and tournament directors.
Discussion: A fair amount of people on the talk forum support this idea, however, just as many dislike this idea and would prefer to have some sort of criteria established by the state. So far, none of the committee members have came on line to support this idea.
Option 2: Georgia Model
Develop a Rookie category for first year wrestlers only. Define Novice as first or second year wrestlers that have never placed at state.
Discussion: This is the most prescriptive option. It give clear rules but doesn't allow for those kids that take longer than 2 years to develop. Another disadvantage is that this idea adds more divisions. A few on the committee think this would hurt clubs that try to host tournaments in that you would not get enough kids for each of the divisions in order to hold a tournament and cover your expenses.
Option 3: Guidelines
USAWKS officially defines Novice as wrestlers with 3 years of experience or less; who have never won an open tournament; placed in 4 open tournaments and/or has not won more than 4 Novice tournaments. These are general guidelines to help provide a framework for tournament directors, club directors, and coaches. The ultimate decision of determining if a wrestler is a Novice is defined by the respective tournament director and respective club directors/coaches in accordance with these guidelines.
Discussion: The intent of this option is for the state to provide general guidelines to assist tournament directors, coaches and club directors. It is not intended to be prescriptive and seen as a set of hard criteria. Many on the talk forum and on the committee of being too prescriptive so that coaches don't have the flexibility to all kids to wrestle based on their ability. This is the unanimous choice from 4 of the committee members that have communicated their preferences.
Option 4: Hybrid
Establish a Rookie category strictly for first year wrestlers. Define Novice using the same definitions as Option 3.
Discussion: This option provides some flexibility but is very prescriptive on the Rookie division. The reason most of us dislike this idea is that it adds another category and numbers for tournaments can become an issue (see Option 2 discussion). None of the committee members have recommended this option.
Where do we go from here......
1. I am going to put the 4 options with their descriptions on the talk forum and illicit feedback and ideas.
2. The district reps will present these options at the district meetings before the seeding meetings. The idea is that each district discusses these options so the district reps can get an idea of which option their district prefers.
3. The committee will discuss the preferences from the different districts and make a recommendation to the state board at the state tournament. The recommendation will only consider looking at whether the districts prefer Option 1 or if they prefer one of the other 3 options. If the recommendation is Option 1 then this issue will not move forward after the state body meeting. If the majority of the districts prefer having some sort of definition (ie, Options 2-4) then the state board will take these options forward to the state body meeting in Oct 2010 and the state body will vote and decide which option to implement.
Shawn...
I think the issue that will require the most thought would be the tracking and enforcement of the definition.
If you base it on anything other then tenure then you will need some form of tracking and enforcement.
Will coaches be required to submit records???
Will someone be hired to sit and track novice results???
I think you all need to BASICLY leave it like it is. Let a tournament define what they are going to allow to wrestle at their tournament. First year, second year, first year with no 1st place finishes, or WHATEVER.
If someone has a protest they take it to a tournament director and its handled there. The tournament director talks to the people involved and makes a decission.
Will people lie and cheat? YES!
Will people find a loop hole and exploit it? YES!
But out of the 1000 entries we see every weekend at different novice tournaments all over the state, how many offenders are we really talking? 5? 10? 20??
My guess is less then 1% and Im ok with that allowance!
Now, I do think it would be OK for the state body to make a suggestion as to what they think is an acceptable definition of novice.
1 or 2 year kid who has never placed in an open tournament (I dont care how many kids are in the bracket! If your worried then don't enter them!) or never having won the Derby Novice State Championship.
At the end of the day any parent or coach (especially coaches) should know that keeping a kid at the novice level actually ends up hurting them in the long run and in my opinion, that child will not be around for a long period of time because they are too far behind the curve.
Is there exceptions to these rules and ideas? YES!
EXAMPLE: Can a child be physically or mentally unable to compete and should be allowed to wrestle longer at the novice level.
But that is something you will need to take up each and every week wuth a tournament director.
If a child is in that situation and still has the heart and desire to lace up those shoes, I would not tell him NO if it was my tournament!
These are just my thoughts and ramblings on the matter!
Good Luck in your quest for finding the best answer!
BLT,
Thanks for your feedback. I just want to clarify one point in referance to this one statement "I think you all need to BASICLY leave it like it is. Let a tournament define what they are going to allow to wrestle at their tournament. First year, second year, first year with no 1st place finishes, or WHATEVER.".....
Please don't think that myself or any of the others on the committee spearheaded this. We were asked by the state board if we would volunteer to do this project and specifically Matt asked if I would chair the committee.
Personally, I agree with almost if not all of your post above, however, I know there are other perspectives and points of view. That is why when you look at the options we developed we intentionally tried to include a very broad range of options (do nothing to very restrictive).
Also, I do not plan on making any decisions or having the committee make any decisions. As I see it this should be left to the state body (all of the clubs) to decide what we as an organization want to do.
Personally I prefer either Option 1 or 3 for all of the reasons you mentioned above.
Again this is my opinion and as the chair it is my duty to present all options and opinions to the board and the body for a decision.
Good news is that we will all have a say at the end of the day.
Thank you very much for your comments because they really helped shape some of the options that were developed.
Shawn
Shawn,
I guess I should have state "WE all need to..."
I totally understand how and why the committiee was formed and what they are asking your roll to be!
And I just wanted to share my OPINION!
I think its great that we are taking the time to look into this issue but I dont think we have (or even if theres a real need) the resources to really spend to police this in the way it would take to truely enforce it!
Please understand that if someone comes up with a good way to make this happen then I am ALL FOR IT! I think that novice year is where 90% of the kids fall IN or OUT of love with the sport.
We don't need sharks swimming around while they are learning to swim.
That 1st year should be focused on education (learning the sport), conditioning (becoming physically able), and passion building (doing whatever it takes to make them see that if you are willing to put forth the effort this is a very rewarding sport).