District 2 will be offering the following bylaw amendment:
Article II - QUALIFYING FOLKSTYLE TOURNAMENTS
3. SEEDING MEETINGS - Each district will establish a deadline, 6 days prior to the sub-district tournament, after which no additional entries may be made. The deadline for entries shall be two hours prior to the start of the Sub-district seeding meeting. Once seeding starts, no changes or additions will be allowed except in the case of clerical errors by the tournament director.
I think having the current deadline of 10 days prior to the sub-district tournament is better if we release the names and weights of the participants for the public to view for possible errors or omissions. Then by imposing the 50 dollar penalty fee for anyone that has not been entered the ability to register. This would deter clubs from coming to the seeding meeting with their entries written on a piece of notebook paper for someone to hand enter.
I know that with track wrestling entering a late entry the day of the seeding meeting is no big deal. But if you had to enter several clubs with several entries would be a big deal.
The entries would still have to be entered on track wrestling; no entries would be accepted at the seeding meeting. I strongly disagree with a 10 day deadline! With the use of track wrestling we should be able to allow the wrestlers more time to have the opportunity to sign up. The extended deadline will also allow clubs to verify their entries before the seeding meeting and add any wrestlers if needed. It is difficult to get the high school wrestlers into our wrestling room before the 10 day deadline. They want a chance to "breath" after competing for the high school. By changing the deadline to Sunday does not mean clubs have to wait to enter but allows clubs to not miss wrestlers that missed the Wednesday deadline.
The $50 penalty is ridiculous! I can see a $15-$20 penalty fee but not $50! What is the plan for the $50? Who keeps the money? Does it go to the state or district?
-Sarah Hartley
The purpose of this is to allow someone to enter that was left of by mistake not for everyone to register when they want to. If you abide by the deadline rule it doesnt cost you a dime.
And my experiences with high school kids they sign up on time but they dont show up the day of the tournament.
Every year a handful of kids (not high school wrestlers) somehow do not get entered and their hearts are broken because of the hard line we have drawn in the past. The $50 is not really to penalize but to provide incentive for the club directors to verify that the entries are correct and have them done on time to allow for preseeding. I am ALL IN FAVOR of post the entries as they are entered too. This will give parents, wrestlers, coaches, etc the opportunity to ensure their kids are entered and entered correctly. Who cares if some wrestlers choose to dodge competition. Everyone is getting bent out of shape over the $50, which goes to the District btw, and will only apply to a limited few and hopefully none!
With the cutoff two hours prior to the seeding meeting the penalty fees are a moot point. Is an error going to be found in that two hour window that wouldn't have been found prior? Doubtful. I have no problem with parents seeing the entries for their own club/kids but if you open up all the tournaments for all to see it will be a MAJOR headache for club directors with parents moving kids around to avoid competitors.
For the record, I'm not sure an official vote was taken but it seemed to be the consensus at the D-II meeting that if the bylaw change was passed at the state level requiring a penalty fee for late entries, that D-II would simply refund at least a portion of that fee back to the club paying it.
Who is going to enter all of the late entries if you don't set a deadline? You are worried about some bracket moves but not about the club who walks in two hours before the meeting with 25 wrestlers who have not been entered? Why does it make so much sense to everyone else but not District 2? Was it inadequately explained? Do you think you are going to have lots of entries having to incur the $50 penalty? I fail to see your logic sporto?
They way I understand it is that there will be a deadline. It is 2 hours before the start of the seeding meeting. There would be no late entries.
Why would the clubs come to the seeding meeting with their entries not entered? They have until 2 hours prior to the meeting to get their entries into trackwrestling.
If the clubs enter their kids they can verify all of this before for any ommissions.
Why does it make so much sense to everyone else but not District 2?
Because we are not a bunch of hysterical fools in District 2?
Let me play devil's advocate. Lets say EVERYONE decides to enter two hours before the seeding meeting... Then parents have no time to verify entries. There will still be wrestlers left off inadvertently and no means to correct them. There would be no time for pre seeding. No time to print out all of the listings, if you so desire to do so. How many subs have you managed Sporto? Hysterical fools?? What is that all about? We are looking for ways to include everyone and have a sensible process that is flexible yet stable. 2 hours before the meeting is not going to work.
Cokeley identified the problem(s) that we are trying to fix.
Please answer how moving the deadline from 10 days to 2 hours fixes the problem. If a club forgets (on accident or on purpose) NOT to enter little Johnnie 2 hours before the seeding meeting, then how does making the deadline to 2 hours before the seeding meeting fix the problem? If little Mike (or big Mike if you rather) gets entered into a wrong weight or God forbid age group 2 hours before the seeding meeting, then how does moving the deadline fix the problem?
The previously proposed bylaw change fixes both of these issues. Keep the 10 day deadline, release the entries prior to the seeding meeting, and allow late entry for a fee up until 1 hour before the seeding meeting begins….this plan fixes both of the stated problems.
Why does it make so much sense to everyone else but not District 2?
Because we are not a bunch of hysterical fools in District 2?
I am in D1 and I am seeking help for my hysteria! But I seem to recall a quote ... better to remain quiet and thought a fool than open your mouth and remove all doubt!!
The main benefit of the date change is having more time to enter without being left out completely. I know the date change will not fix all of the problems or clerical mistakes. But NO bracketing is done before the seeding meeting so what difference does it make to allow entries up to the day of the seeding meeting?
-Sarah Hartley
If you do it for subs. Then why not for EVERY tournament running Track?? They either want to wrestle it or they don't (high schoolers)....This is the whole reason for this thread is high school kids, correct?? Thought this was kids wrestling. Who are we catering to, high school or kids??
If you don't have a deadline then you start the meeting and you realize that someone has been left off because their club didn't enter until the last minute, what do you do????
There is no reason to not allow entries up until a few minutes of a seeding meeting. There is no additional paperwork. If a club left a kid off, they would have left him off whether there is a 10 day deadline, or a 2 hour deadline.
When I enter kids on trackwrestling, I copy and paste the entry sheet onto an email, which I then forward to all of my parents. I won't wait until two hours before the seeding meeting to enter most of the kids. I'll do them as I get them. But I want the opportunity to enter that high school kid that was sick of wrestling right after high school state, but then is ready to get back on the mat 5 or 6 days later.
If there is a team stupid enough to show up at the seeding meeting without having entered any kids, well that club should get a new director............
There is no downside to allowing entries up to 2 hours prior to the start of the seeding meeting. Actually, there is no downside to allowing them up to the start of the seeding meeting. Noone says you have to print me a sheet off, and have me sign it after reviewing. Just show me the computer screen, I'll review it, and if ok, you can print it off and I'll sign it. We can save the environment by not having to print off two pieces of paper-one that may or may not be correct, and another with corrections.
Will, you are a huge trackwrestling guy, so just admit that it doesn't hurt ANYTHING to allow entries right up until the seeding meeting. Trackwrestling allows us to do this, so let's do it.
Doug,
Club directors make errors every week of the season when entering kids in tournaments. While trackwrestling has made management of tournament operations easier, those managing the tournaments need time to make corrections or additions. It may be easy to fix one or two problems, but it can become a monumental task to fix 20 or 30 (or God forbid 100) at a time. This is exactly what your D2 amendment is setting us up for. I was involved with running tournaments before trackwrestling and I was a big advocate of implementing this software and making it mandatory for our qualifying series. I know what it can and can’t do. Trackwrestling has gone a long way in allowing us a platform to offer better quality tournaments. However, we have identified a couple big holes in our qualifying series entry process. Like any database program, it comes down to garbage in…garbage out. The original amendment that keeps a deadline for entries, opens up registration for participant/parent review, and allows late entries for a fee fixes the holes which allows participants a chance to participate even if an error was made. The D2 amendment does not fix the holes in the system that have been identified…it only kicks the problem down the road and in turn makes the errors harder to fix.
Mark
Spexy,
There are two amendments on the table. The original amendment was actually proposed to help with errors made in the entry process for ALL of our age groups. As it stands now, if a wrestler of any age is left off of club registration lists then that wrestler has no means to get entered into the tournament whether the error was their own fault or not. The original amendment allows for participant/parent review and gives the participant (who miss the 10 day deadline) an avenue to gain entry into the tournament for a fee up until one hour before the seeding meeting. The D2 substitute amendment does not allow for the participant/parent review period; under their substitute amendment the deadline for entry is simply shifted to two hours before the sub-district seeding meeting. I will concede that their substitute amendment would benefit the high school wrestlers the most. However I will offer that while the original amendment was not proposed for the High School wrestlers in mind exclusively, it does fix that problem as well. If a high school wrestlers wants to participate and has missed our 10 day deadline, they will still be able sign up for an added fee up until one hour before the seeding meeting if the original amendment is passed next Sunday. I hope too many folks aren't confused by this D2 substitute amendment, because there is a lot of merit for the orighinal amendment.
Mark
If the club directors are not emailing, or posting, the email verification that they receive after they enter their wrestlers, so that parents can review, then they are idiots.
Remember, changes can be made prior to the seeding meeting, if there is an incorrect weight. Entries are the issue, not changes. Those are made easily with the click of a mouse, prior to the seeding meeting.
I have always disagreed with releasing entries prior to the seeding meeeting. A club should only have access to their own entries, via the confirmation email that they receive after inputting the entries. But that is another issue........
If the club directors are not emailing, or posting, the email verification that they receive after they enter their wrestlers, so that parents can review, then they are idiots.
Doug - I agree, under normal circumstances, this would work. I hope the intent of the change is to deal with the exceptions.
What if you have parents that aren't present at practices, the kid is sick the days leading up to the sign-ups (and doesn't let anyone know they are going to wrestle even though they didn't practice for 2+ weeks) or perhaps that family doesn't have email. I know, even my 85 yr old Grandma uses email.
I like the intent of the change and support allowing a kid to wrestle while still holding clubs accountable. It seems the current rules, punishes the kid for an adults mistake. Be it a club director, parent, coach or otherwise.
Disclaimer: I am from D1, to some may be considered a hysterical fool, please take with a grain of salt.
So now the kid that doesn't come to practice for the 3 weeks prior to the tourney, has to make sure he or his parents checks his email, or stops by practice, sometime prior to 2 hours before the start of the seeding meeting, to make sure he is entered correctly.
Things don't have to be complicated to be right. This simplifies the process, there is no gray area, and it gives everyone plenty of time to make sure their entries are correct.
Here we go again, trying to design a rule that is going to cover every single situation. What about the kid that was kidnapped and wasn't rescued until 4 minutes before the seeding meeting, but still wants to wrestle? When he was kidnapped, he weighed 125 lbs, but lost weight from malnutrition, and doesn't have time to run to a scale and see what weight he should enter at??!! What about him??!! waaaaaaa!!!!
Finally someone else is pointing out this is about the actual entries! We have always done changes (ie weight for instance), those could continue to be done.
The way I hear some on here talk that there would be a $50 penalty to simply change a weight that was after the 10 deadline. I do not believe that this is the purpose of the admendment, the actual entries are.
Doug,
Now you’re just being an ass. I guess we’ll just have to agree to disagree. But, I will tell you that there were real flesh and blood wrestlers that were not able to wrestle in the State series last year for no fault of their own…and EVERY year for that matter. The situations varied from the parents making a mistake, the wrestler sitting on the fence, the club making mistakes, and even worse, a participant purposely being left off a list. Every year the managers of the Sub-District tournaments get hit with every excuse in the book. The intent of the original amendment was to give these kids who for whatever reason missed our deadline an opportunity to wrestle for an added fee. The original amendment offers the fairest and most consistent way to deal with this issue. Some excuses may be more legitimate than others, but who decides whether little Johnny’s internet outage was more important big Mike’s trip to the ER. I don’t like excuses, but if we are going to open the door up and fix the problem for one kid than we need to have rules in place that can be consistently applied to the entire USAWA-KS organization. Simply put, extending the deadline without an added fee DOES NOT FIX THE PROBLEM. Any solution that doesn't put in place a parent/participant review period DOES NOT FIX THE PROBLEM. This is my last comment on this issue…until Sunday. Club representatives, you have to show up to have a voice! The D2 amendment DOES NOT FIX THE PROBLEM.
Mark
Purple Freak
Nobody is trying to charge a fee to make weight changes for kids that were entered prior to the 10 day deadline. I am not sure where you read that, but it is NOT part of either amendment.
Mark
Doug,
Now you’re just being an ass.*****don't let your mouth write checks your a$$ can't cash***** I guess we’ll just have to agree to disagree. But, I will tell you that there were real flesh and blood wrestlers that were not able to wrestle in the State series last year for no fault of their own…and EVERY year for that matter. ******And the D2 proposal would be the least punitive way to rectify that situation******* The situations varied from the parents making a mistake, the wrestler sitting on the fence, the club making mistakes, and even worse, a participant purposely being left off a list. *******In each instance, our proposal would allow those kids you mention to wrestle, as long as they checked their email, or went to practice to check with their club director******** Every year the managers of the Sub-District tournaments get hit with every excuse in the book.****And this would end that, because trackwrestling closes 2 hours before the seeding meeting under our proposal****** The intent of the original amendment was to give these kids who for whatever reason missed our deadline an opportunity to wrestle for an added fee. ****Ours give them that option without the additional fee****** The original amendment offers the fairest and most consistent way to deal with this issue. **See above*** Some excuses may be more legitimate than others, but who decides whether little Johnny’s internet outage was more important big Mike’s trip to the ER. I don’t like excuses, but if we are going to open the door up and fix the problem for one kid than we need to have rules in place that can be consistently applied to the entire USAWA-KS organization. Simply put, extending the deadline without an added fee DOES NOT FIX THE PROBLEM. Any solution that doesn't put in place a parent/participant review period **********I have never gone online to check to see if my son was entered in the correct weight, and neither do most parents. They assume their kid is entered correctly. And you still have that option to make weight changes when your club is called up to ok the entry list. I'm sorry, but if a kid can't get entered by the 2 hour deadline, he doesn't want to wrestle very bad********DOES NOT FIX THE PROBLEM. This is my last comment on this issue…until Sunday. Club representatives, you have to show up to have a voice! The D2 amendment DOES NOT FIX THE PROBLEM.****And the D1 amendment punishes you for not entering by a deadline that is way too early******
Mark
Disclaimer: I am from D1, to some may be considered a hysterical fool, please take with a grain of salt.
I don't think you necessarily have to be a hysterical fool to be from D1, but I do think it helps to fit in there if you are.
Doug,
I guess we’ll just have to agree to disagree.
IMPOSSIBLE- we CAN NOT agree to disagree. ALL grievances must be settled. settled the old fashioned way, with a duel. Mark and Doug you will have 3 choices to chose from, Nerf dart guns, bows with "lick n stick" arrows, or a joust on tricycles with foam lances. The first man with 2 victories declared shall be crowned the winner, and will subsequently be allowed to be as histerical, foolish, an ass as he choses, and NO other man shall be allowed to take that right from him. NOT even Sir Richard Salyer, Sir William Cokeley, NOR Sir Sportfan02.
gosh i missed this show, now on with ACT II. Bravo, gents, Bravo!
I thought my example was funny, but it got me called an a$$....Must have hurt someone's feelings. Must not be politically correct to joke about a kidnapping, for fear of even one person being offended........ One person gets lung cancer(and never really knows what caused it), and everyone has to do without coal fired electric plants. One nuclear reactor has an accident, and they all are bad. I'm sick of catering to the minority.
If our amendment doesn't pass at the meeting, I'll accept it, no big deal. Let's vote on it. You'd think D2 was wanting to chop kids' arms off or something.
I never had a problem with the way we've done entries for subs. What ever the rule is, that is what I've lived with. You never heard me whining about a kid that got left out. I just told the kid "too late, you knew the deadline". But I have wondered, ever since we went to trackwrestling, why we needed the early deadline. Now I know that it is for that one kid, so dedicated to the sport, and so badly wanting to wrestle the kids' state series, that he misses the last 3 weeks of practice and misses the deadline. Yep, that is the kid that I will go to bat for..........
To clear up any mud that has clouded this issue:
The D2 proposal would basically give you up until 2 hours prior to the posted seeding meeting start time, to enter and/or make changes. So let's say the seeding meeting is posted to start at noon on Sunday March 4th. Trackwrestling would be shut down to any NEW ENTRIES as of 10 am on Sunday March 4th. This will keep a club from bringing new entries to the seeding meeting, they will have to enter them before they leave the house for the seeding meeting.
At the seeding meeting, each club will be called up to verify their entries for accuracy. Weight changes can be made at this time if need be. Once any changes are made on the computer screen, the entries can be printed off, signed off on, and be done.
This is a zero tolerance policy on entry deadline. If you choose to wait until Sunday morning to enter your wrestlers, and you internet happens to be down that morning, you better get to your neighbor to get 'em entered. My advice for club directors would be to enter kids as you get the entries, so that you stay ahead. So if a kid tells you two weeks early what weight he is going, as long as trackwrestling is open, get him in. I will probably tell our kids that the Wednesday before is the deadline, and use the Thurs, Fri, and Sat for "recruiting" those high school kids that didn't want to wrestle after HS state, but start missing it after a week or so away from it.
Wrestling is expensive enough, so if a kid decides on Sunday morning that he wants to wrestle, let him, for NO ADDITIONAL FEE.
Again, I will adhere to whatever system we adopt. You won't hear me whining about a kid not getting to wrestle. If I didn't get the info to the kid about the correct deadline, that is my fault. If the kid is too dumb to ask, that is his fault. So we can both deal with it. Life isn't going to spoon feed you...........
I just feel like technology allows us to adopt this type of deadline, so why not do it?
Doug,
I was frustrated (my feelings were not hurt), but not for the reason that you eluded to in your post. I apologize for letting my personal comment get ahead of my common since. My frustration stems from the fact that I believe we need to examine all of the bylaw changes by looking at two things. First, what are we trying to fix and does the change proposed actually fix the problem identified; and second what are the unintended negative consequences of the changes we are trying to make. For the most part USAWA-KS is a smoothly operating organization. For that reason we need to guard against creating bigger problems unintentionally. How’s the old saying about good intentions go? Once our bylaws are set, I am a very big proponent to living by the rules. Unfortunately this has not always been the case in regards to this issue as the bylaws are currently written. Where one district may live by the rules and not allow late entries, others are going down the slippery slope of allowing a late entry for one excuse but disallowing another participant for reasons they deem not worthy. This is why I am in favor of the late entry portion of the original amendment; what’s good for one is good for all. You can enter late for an added fee. But, if you allow open registration up until two hours before the seeding meeting you fail to give club directors the incentive to get their entries entered in time for a parent/participant review period. Why I feel so strongly about the parent/participant review period, is because a lot of these errors are not even discovered by the parent/participant until after the seeding meeting when the entries are now posted and it’s too late to make a change. I agree with you that it is “stupid” (your word not mine) for club directors to not do the parent/participant review on their own; but it is a fact that you can’t fix stupid. I hope that all the 1468 viewers of this thread have learned a little from our debate. See you on Sunday….
Mark
I think I called club directors that are not communicating with their parents via email, or posting entries on the wall in their wrestling room IDIOTS, not stupid, but I'll go ahead and call them stupid also. I don't think there are many that fall in that category, so we should not be insulting too many people with our statements.
I still disagree with the review period. The review period is going on at the same time entries are being put into trackwrestling. I don't think we need a separate "review" period, after the close of trackwrestling. And I disagree with making it even more expensive to wrestle with that penalty of $50
Here is a question for someone: Is there a way to allow access to data from our own club, that we could give a password or something, to our parents, to review the entries after I enter them? Not needed for our club, but for those that think we need it, is that possible. The parent would not be able to change anything, but could see the entries for our club only? For those of you that support releasing entries early, just allow access to the entry data as soon as they are entered. Oklahoma does it this way I believe. I'm ready to give up on my "keep kids from running" rant. One way or another, kids are going to run. We've seen many situation where "scared stiff" dads are asking "what weight are you guys going?", trying to get the inside scoop on how is the best way to get his kid the 8u state championship.
This may be an alternative to your plan. Give us the late deadline, and we give you the open entries, so parents can review them as they are posted. It would also allow parents to, if they don't see their teams' entries, bug the club director to get off his butt and get them entered. Kind of a check and balance. If by Saturday, your club's entries aren't in the system, club director's phone will be ringing off the hook.
Unfortunately this has not always been the case in regards to this issue as the bylaws are currently written.
Could I be so bold as to ask, which district is it that hasn't followed the rules in the past?
Unfortunately this has not always been the case in regards to this issue as the bylaws are currently written.
Could I be so bold as to ask, which district is it that hasn't followed the rules in the past?
why do you ask questions that you already know the answer to?
why are Mark and Doug trying to get out of the duel?
why can't we just settle this stuff like men?
why doesn't the old "sticks and stones" quote work these days?
when is the intermission going to be over? i wan't more action!
Doug called me a "stupid idiot"!
And you didn't even call me an a$$ !!!!!!
Well not officially I didn't.
Just a point, you could do away with the requirement that clubs enter the participants - and do like the Blue Chip tourneys and USA Nationals and let the parents enter the kids themselves thru trackwrestling. This would prevent all the problems - I guess it would probably put too much power in the 'peoples' hands. Clubs could still do it for the parents who are new to the sport and are not sure how to do it.
For a liberal, I am surprised you would give any power "back to the people". Maybe you'll be smart enough to support Herman Cain this time around...........
Hate to admit it, but this wouldn't bother me at all to let parents enter if they'd like, and don't trust stupid idiots like Team Roper
There is still one question that has not been answered yet. Where does the extra money go from the late entrees? Does that money go to the State, District, or hosting club? I would like to hear the answer to the question.
I think we should use all money raised by the fifty dollar fee,to provide Beer and Strippers for the coaches room at state, this would make a long day much more enjoyable.
I was thinking that I would let my son sit out of the kids series this year, but if you guys do that, he is wrestling!!!!
Jess,
The money would go to the District.
Tom