Kansas Wrestling
Posted By: Houchin 6 & under state official - 02/21/12 09:08 PM
Could anyone tell me the name of the older official on the 1st and 2nd place mat during finals? He was a tall man with white hair.
Posted By: Jeremy Molloy Re: 6 & under state official - 02/21/12 09:11 PM
Was it the tall BIG man with white hair?
Posted By: Houchin Re: 6 & under state official - 02/21/12 09:18 PM
Yes
Posted By: doug747 Re: 6 & under state official - 02/21/12 09:35 PM
That was probably Mark Anderson. And it wasn't 6u state, it was 6u world intergalactic cosmospherical olympic championships.........Or at least that is what some people thought........
Posted By: Houchin Re: 6 & under state official - 02/21/12 09:58 PM
Ok. Thanks! I noticed he had a rough evening officiating and was just curious who he was.
Posted By: doug747 Re: 6 & under state official - 02/21/12 10:07 PM
By rough, I don't know what you're saying. You can rest assured, that Mr. Anderson's calls were made without reservation. Like him or not, he makes the call and it is hard to argue with someone that is confident in his judgements.......
Posted By: ThomasGT Re: 6 & under state official - 02/21/12 10:14 PM
Originally Posted By: doug747
That was probably Mark Anderson. And it wasn't 6u state, it was 6u world intergalactic cosmospherical olympic championships.........Or at least that is what some people thought........


Yep, we noticed the same thing even in the first round. Funny stuff I tell ya!
Posted By: Beeson Re: 6 & under state official - 02/21/12 10:16 PM
Originally Posted By: doug747
By rough, I don't know what you're saying. You can rest assured, that Mr. Anderson's calls were made without reservation. Like him or not, he makes the call and it is hard to argue with someone that is confident in his judgements.......


And 6u are the hardest group of all groups to officiate. I agree with Doug, Mr. Anderson calls good matches.
Posted By: Houchin Re: 6 & under state official - 02/21/12 10:20 PM
I just noticed numerous times he was in the faces of parents or coaches.
Posted By: Beeson Re: 6 & under state official - 02/21/12 10:21 PM
You know how 6u parents are...they should not have been matside so he could be in their faces. They should have been in the stands.
Posted By: doug747 Re: 6 & under state official - 02/21/12 10:21 PM
There was a good group of officials on the mats our kids wrestled on. One official that needs to be commended, was on Mat 1. Nathan Butler did a good job. He is what we need, young official learning the ropes. And if all officials were as big and ugly as him and Anderson, NO ONE would argue a call..........
Posted By: Houchin Re: 6 & under state official - 02/21/12 10:30 PM
Well its my understanding coaches usually coach from the mat not the stands, and the parent was having a private conversation in the stands when he jumped them.
Posted By: Jeremy Molloy Re: 6 & under state official - 02/21/12 10:38 PM
I agree Mark did a great job so did the young Butler and if Mark did get after someone don't worry about it he is a bit of a blow hard sometimes:) The 70's were hard on him...
Posted By: doug747 Re: 6 & under state official - 02/21/12 10:51 PM
If this was on Mat 5, I think I saw the altercation. It started on the mat, then a coach or parent kept running their mouth on the way off the mat. I can't remember what the coach was arguing about, but it was a clearcut example of a coach/parent not knowing the rules. Mark informed the coach of that, but the coach didn't buy it. It was something very simple.

I would say this happened early to mid afternoon..........Private message me what the controversy was, and maybe that will remind me of what the argument was.......
Posted By: Blast2l! Re: 6 & under state official - 02/21/12 11:14 PM
Not sure of the ref.. mat 1 tall dark man! Seen there was an altercation in the hall way never could get a story from anyone!
Posted By: Rford Re: 6 & under state official - 02/21/12 11:42 PM
Arguing a call in a 6u match....think about the absurdity of doing such a thing.

Mr. Anderson knows the rules, in several languages most likely, and I wouldn't be trying to change his mind.
Posted By: Houchin Re: 6 & under state official - 02/22/12 12:03 AM
The problems I saw were all during the finals on the 1st & 2nd place mat. No one is doubting that he knows the rules, I'm sure he does but I don't care for the way he treated the people.
Posted By: HEADUP Re: 6 & under state official - 02/22/12 01:35 AM
Originally Posted By: Houchin
The problems I saw were all during the finals on the 1st & 2nd place mat. No one is doubting that he knows the rules, I'm sure he does but I don't care for the way he treated the people.

Mark is usually short and to the point some people misunderstand that as being rude.

His job is to call the match, not greet everyone with a smile as they enter.

It gets really old when coaches try to challenge a call, by running out onto the mat and yelling. If they knew the rules as good as they thought, they would know the correct procedure to challenge a call.

The above scenario is worse in 6u matches and novice tournaments
Posted By: Beeson Re: 6 & under state official - 02/22/12 01:45 AM
This has been discussed before. The biggest problem is that too many coaches dont know the rules, and even more parents don't. This is a good official and I would bet dollars to donuts that he was right.
Posted By: in it to win it Re: 6 & under state official - 02/22/12 01:49 AM
What many parents do not realize is that Mark Anderson has many, many years of accomplishments and is FILA qualified to ref. Olumpic Trials/Olympics as well as International competition.

Pity the parents that thought their calls were "better than Mark's." This man is a KS officiating attribute!
Posted By: Houchin Re: 6 & under state official - 02/22/12 02:06 AM
What you guys are not understanding is that the parent was not even arguing with him about anything. When they walked off the mat the parent said something to another family member about the match. He then jumped someone in that area whom he "thought" was making rude comments and later found out he was wrong about. The voice he thought he heard wasn't even saying a word. How many people are gonna stand back while someone jumps down your throat accusing you of saying somthing that never happened. It has nothing to do with coaches or parents not knowing enough about wrestling.
Posted By: Houchin Re: 6 & under state official - 02/22/12 02:12 AM
Pity the person who thinks they know what went on. The man may be an amazing official but even the greatest make mistakes! No one ever said he was a bad ref or didnt know what he was doing. I'm sure he is a great person. I just personally didn't agree with his actions on sun!
Posted By: Cowbuff Re: 6 & under state official - 02/22/12 02:45 AM
dont know dont care leave the refs alone
Posted By: HEADUP Re: 6 & under state official - 02/22/12 02:46 AM
Originally Posted By: Houchin
Ok. Thanks! I noticed he had a rough evening officiating and was just curious who he was.


forgive me for misunderstanding, i think statement might be misleading though.

it's a little more clear now, but not much
Posted By: Cowbuff Re: 6 & under state official - 02/22/12 02:49 AM
here we are on here calling out a call that a ref made has there been a ref on here calling out a call a coach or parent has made believe me i have made some bad calls myself as a parent and as a coach
Posted By: bockman Re: 6 & under state official - 02/22/12 02:55 AM
i think this was after the 64lb. final match. my son was in that match and won so im not sure what all happened after that. i did see something going on but figured the refs and security had control of it so i didnt ask questions. we all have to remember we must keep our composure in front of these kids as we get on them for acting out. its hard sometimes but the kids do as we do and when they do it we yell at them or even spank their butts.
Posted By: Cowbuff Re: 6 & under state official - 02/22/12 03:09 AM
keep it fun for the kids
Posted By: Rford Re: 6 & under state official - 02/22/12 03:21 AM
Originally Posted By: Houchin
Pity the person who thinks they know what went on. The man may be an amazing official but even the greatest make mistakes! No one ever said he was a bad ref or didnt know what he was doing. I'm sure he is a great person. I just personally didn't agree with his actions on sun!


That's probably a good point. Even best make mistakes. And I guess anyone that doesn't agree with a particular call can come on the forum and express their personal opinion and whether they agree or disagree with what an official did or did not do. Most officials don't participate in the forum or make any effort to explain their calls (and Mark rarely, if ever, reads the forum posts anyway)so you'll never know what he was thinking, what he heard, or what he saw.
Posted By: Cowbuff Re: 6 & under state official - 02/22/12 03:26 AM
thank u
Posted By: John Taylor Re: 6 & under state official - 02/22/12 01:55 PM
A little off topic but!!!! Everyone makes mistakes,everyone! No matter how experienced you are or how much you know the rules mistakes are made, its just a fact of life for a referee. I officiated several years ago for about 3 or 4 years it is a hard thankless job that is exactly why i stopped doing it. I have coached high school, college, and kids club for the last 18 years. The one thing I don't understand about ref's and remember I know how tough their job is, is that when they do make mistakes instead of talking about it with the coach who asks them, the referees immediately gets a defensive posture and doesn't want to listen to what you have to say. It happens all the time and I guarantee, that they know they made the mistake and don't want to admit it. Referees have a very tough job everyone understands that, but before every tournament during the coaches meetings the head ref asks all the coaches to be respectful and handle things the right way. I think the ref's should start doing the same. It is within the coaches right to raise his hand and approach the table to get clarification and to express his opinion and understanding. Alot of times when i see coaches do this the ref immediately gets an attitude and doesn't want to listen. Coaches should always respect the referee's for what they do and for their knowledge but the coaches should get the same thing in return from the referee. Just my 2 cents.
Posted By: Houchin Re: 6 & under state official - 02/22/12 02:19 PM
I agree 100%. Well said!
Posted By: bockman Re: 6 & under state official - 02/22/12 03:19 PM
i think this is what we are going to do next year if we run a tournament. we will not have officials. the officials will be both of the coaches. they will flip a coin to see who is the main ref. the other one will be the ref that walks around the edge. not sure how that would work but hey its an idea. then there would be no arguing any calls.
Posted By: in it to win it Re: 6 & under state official - 02/22/12 08:03 PM
why have coaches referee?--they need to be in the corner making certain the parents call the match correctly ---have a parent for each kid reffing the match/yelling and making the calls and lets really see a show! Just my .02

by the way where's that guitar playing monkey when we need him playing entertainment? During down time.
Posted By: gofigure Re: 6 & under state official - 02/22/12 08:12 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kc5bfJ8FHzg&feature=email

Try to watch this video- not the same official others have talked about- but this guy takes forever to get to the mat- 4+ seconds...witness him take at least 4 steps before easing himself down to the mat.

Of course, he was much faster when he chased a woman out of the gym for commenting on his work.

As for the video- he never calls a pin she clearly earned. He have something against a girl winning?

Nobody should be afraid of a critique of their work.
Posted By: bockman Re: 6 & under state official - 02/22/12 08:36 PM
we all have to remember that this is 6 and under wrestling. i think the refs give the kids on bottom a fighting chance to get out. yes i have seen it where i thought a kid even my own kid pinned but i think at that age what does either kid learn with a 10 second pin. i would rather see them wrestle out 3 periods at that age. it was the 6 under state but not a highschool state. they cant learn everything in practice. the only way to get what you want out of a ref is to become one yourself. i do get upset and question calls but at the end of the day you couldnt pay me enough to be a ref. i did it for 2 years and stopped doing it cause of the coaches and parents. i was acutally asked to ref on saturday but had too many kids to coach so chose not to. really didnt want to do it even for the money.
Posted By: Wrestlerspappy Re: 6 & under state official - 02/22/12 08:38 PM
that is plain as day a pin

Originally Posted By: gofigure
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kc5bfJ8FHzg&feature=email

Try to watch this video- not the same official others have talked about- but this guy takes forever to get to the mat- 4+ seconds...witness him take at least 4 steps before easing himself down to the mat.

Of course, he was much faster when he chased a woman out of the gym for commenting on his work.

As for the video- he never calls a pin she clearly earned. He have something against a girl winning?

Nobody should be afraid of a critique of their work.
Posted By: Blast2l! Re: 6 & under state official - 02/22/12 08:56 PM
It clearly was a pin.however this ref was getting yelled at all day by grown men and didnt say a thing but once a woman " with a 7 month old new born strapped to her chest" argued a call and was walking out of the gym he didnt hesitate to chase her out yelling and pointing his finger in her face while her baby cried.. frankly im surprised he was allowed to continue to ref. And to top it off the father came in and asked for his ref badge # and he took it to such offense he ejected him for asking.. ASTONISHED
Posted By: Jfer Re: 6 & under state official - 02/22/12 09:13 PM
To the comment above that the ref's try to let the kids get out of pins to help them learn the same ref had no problem in period 2 calling a pin on her within a second. Had it went all 3 periods she would have won. She had MANY more points than he did. I do think ref's are human and they do make mistakes (like everyone) but it's upsetting that he made that call and the day before told a boy on bottom (who a girl also had pinned) "c'mon you can get out of this".
Posted By: gofigure Re: 6 & under state official - 02/22/12 09:20 PM
Blast- I didn't mention that- but yes- she had a baby on a front pack! And was hot on her trail, but didn't eject her!?

A pin is a pin- it doesn't say anywhere to let them wrestle to try to get out of it. He definitely was in no rush to even look. Even once he was there she had a pin though.

Judgment calls are just that- but when a person is so far out of position...

And in reference to the "it's only 6U state"...fair is fair. If it were a boy would he have moved so slow? I know there is a prejudice against girls with some refs.

You could make the same argument against all sports...it is only a game. Not life and death.

Somebody got ripped off.
Posted By: in it to win it Re: 6 & under state official - 02/22/12 09:49 PM
Guess, this all boils down to "why have a 6 & u State?".......attend Novice Championships. This is 6 & u not HS or NCAA'S. There shouldn't be any "seeding " these athletes/wrestlers are < 6! If your considering sexual bias there is "Girl's State".

Ottawa's 6&u state tournament is in "name only" which started ~~8 years ago or so by Ottawa. The Kansas State Series starts March 10 with sub-district concluding March 25 with the State Championships.

As some of the more experienced wrestling folks will tell anyone & their wrestlers.....Never let the ref. decide the match, make it clear with your points & actions.

I've not really seen a season such as the current one where there's so much ref. raging.
Posted By: gofigure Re: 6 & under state official - 02/22/12 10:00 PM
There is an interesting point. The girl pinned the boy- but due to slow moving- out of position ref- it was taken out of her hands.

She did get the pin. I'm quite sure of that. Too bad he took forever to get there. He was pinned numerous times.

Not every 6U is a novice. Derby just takes 1st year wrestlers...some kids have wrestled for 3 years and go to Ottawa.

Now would you believe he is a KSHSAA official?
Posted By: Blast2l! Re: 6 & under state official - 02/22/12 10:19 PM
That saying is taken out of context.. i tell my wrestlers that to get them to get in there and get after it.. Somtimes a match is left up to the ref to decide. Nothing either wrestler could do to change it! Plain and simple..
Posted By: Rford Re: 6 & under state official - 02/23/12 12:35 AM
Originally Posted By: John Taylor
A little off topic but!!!! Everyone makes mistakes,everyone! No matter how experienced you are or how much you know the rules mistakes are made, its just a fact of life for a referee. I officiated several years ago for about 3 or 4 years it is a hard thankless job that is exactly why i stopped doing it. I have coached high school, college, and kids club for the last 18 years. The one thing I don't understand about ref's and remember I know how tough their job is, is that when they do make mistakes instead of talking about it with the coach who asks them, the referees immediately gets a defensive posture and doesn't want to listen to what you have to say. It happens all the time and I guarantee, that they know they made the mistake and don't want to admit it. Referees have a very tough job everyone understands that, but before every tournament during the coaches meetings the head ref asks all the coaches to be respectful and handle things the right way. I think the ref's should start doing the same. It is within the coaches right to raise his hand and approach the table to get clarification and to express his opinion and understanding. Alot of times when i see coaches do this the ref immediately gets an attitude and doesn't want to listen. Coaches should always respect the referee's for what they do and for their knowledge but the coaches should get the same thing in return from the referee. Just my 2 cents.


From my personal experience, and based upon my observations, its a two way street. Inexperienced coaches and inexperienced officials have a hard time communicating. Hard headed coaches and hard headed officials butt heads. Mature, confident officials and mature, confident coaches can usually talk things over and get things resolved. Kids wrestling has its own set of issues and also has a lot of young officials and coaches who aren't mature (they are young).

At the HS level, in eastern KS, we have a pretty stable group of mature (older)officials and I see more guys reversing calls, explaining themselves, and apologizing to coaches when the call/match gets messed up.

That said, it is sometimes very hard to put on a happy face and not have an attitude when you hear a coach hollering about some "rule" that isn't a rule and then you see him walking to the table to tell you what the rule is, when you already know that he doesn't know the rule but you have to go to the table nonetheless. And you know that when you give him the "coaches misconduct" warning its not going to make things better. True story....after a table conference I told a coach I was warning him for "coaches misconduct" and he launched into an argument that he had been respectful, had not raised his voice, and why would I consider what he said misconduct?....seriously.
Posted By: Rford Re: 6 & under state official - 02/23/12 12:59 AM
All I see in that video is way too many people on the edge of the mat....
Posted By: Beeson Re: 6 & under state official - 02/23/12 01:15 AM
Quote:
6U is very difficult if not impossible to seed. Most of the kids stay within a 50 mile range of where they live. So it is hard to tell how they stack up against the rest of the State. Alot of 6U wrestle quite a bit of novice so it is hard to tell how good they really are. Throw in the fact that they are 6 and can not or will not perform the same from one match to the next makes it harder still. Finally, most are coached to just throw headlocks, cow-catchers, and snakes, it is anybody's match when these kind of junk moves are taught to 6U. The winner is who ever fell on top. Blind Draw is the best way to go at 6U State.


I posted this on another thread about 6U state before I saw this video. The highlighted RED is all I saw.
Posted By: HEADUP Re: 6 & under state official - 02/23/12 01:54 AM
............and the State can't figure out why we aren't getting enough officials.
Posted By: gofigure Re: 6 & under state official - 02/23/12 02:05 AM
Too true- a poor venue made worse by the decision to only wrestle in one of two gyms available. it is up to the official to clear folks. And they rarely do.
Posted By: gofigure Re: 6 & under state official - 02/23/12 02:08 AM
Which is all the more striking since the little girl used a knee block to get the take-down.

Since her arm was so deep- worked right to a reverse-half went they went to the mat.
Posted By: Jfer Re: 6 & under state official - 02/23/12 02:27 AM
I would be so grateful if the ref was shown this video and said he was sorry for missing the obvious call. He is human (as we all are) and mistakes are going to be made. The coach/parent in this instance were VERY respectful (as I believe they always should be as we are examples for our children).
Posted By: Bronco Wrestler Re: 6 & under state official - 02/23/12 02:35 AM
I watched the video and in it you can clearly see at first her hand is under the shoulder, then the young man lifts his right shoulder off the mat, then the official gets in the view as he's looking for the fall, at :50 it appears it could be a fall but we cannot see the other shoulder (but the official is right there) then at :55 he goes back to lifting his left shoulder off.

I didn't see a fall and a video this far away can be deceiving. The official was in good position to see it and apparently didn't see it.

This is just my opinion, probably not worth anything just my view.
Posted By: Beeson Re: 6 & under state official - 02/23/12 02:43 AM
Originally Posted By: gofigure
Which is all the more striking since the little girl used a knee block to get the take-down.

Since her arm was so deep- worked right to a reverse-half went they went to the mat.


Your joking right! Both kids were just hanging on the head. There was no "Knee Block". They fell, she happened to be on top.

And I agree with Bronco Wrestler, I did not see a pin either. Nothing for the official to apologize for. I think an excuse is needed and it has to be the official. 6U parents are like the 6U kids, not really sure what is going on, but trying like hell and crying when the match is over.
Posted By: Rford Re: 6 & under state official - 02/23/12 02:52 AM
Originally Posted By: Bronco Wrestler
I watched the video and in it you can clearly see at first her hand is under the shoulder, then the young man lifts his right shoulder off the mat, then the official gets in the view as he's looking for the fall, at :50 it appears it could be a fall but we cannot see the other shoulder (but the official is right there) then at :55 he goes back to lifting his left shoulder off.

I didn't see a fall and a video this far away can be deceiving. The official was in good position to see it and apparently didn't see it.

This is just my opinion, probably not worth anything just my view.


I thought the same thing...not really definitive on the film.... plus it is 6U and while I don't officiate kids, I know that in the middle school matches there is a little more time given in calling a fall...yes, the rule still says 2 seconds, but its kind of like speeding...on the interstate you might get by with driving 10 over the limit, but in a school zone you might get no break. So context does matter. Same in the NFL...holding occurs on every play, but it doesn't get called unless it affects the play. Here, and I don't officiate kids, maybe its the convention that you are a little more deliberate or slow when the bottom wrestler is working side to side and working.

More often we get criticized for calling falls too quickly...
Posted By: gofigure Re: 6 & under state official - 02/23/12 03:00 AM
Her right hand is over the top of right shoulder- reverse half. Not under. While red strolls around the mat. Oh- and she is laying on the left shoulder.

This video isn't far off though?

Meanwhile- video review from much further away is used in all sports.

Too bad took nearly 5 seconds for him to ease down to the mat.
Posted By: Bronco Wrestler Re: 6 & under state official - 02/23/12 03:03 AM
In your 5 seconds you're talking about his right shoulder is off the which is apparent in the video.

This video is shot from across the mat, farther away than the official was. It was also shot at an angle where you cannot see the far shoulder of the defensive wrestler. I will agree in other sports video from further is used, but they also have multiple angles.

I can tell this is a conversation which will have no end, regardless of what is said. I have given my opinion and for what it's worth, I'll stick to it.
Posted By: gofigure Re: 6 & under state official - 02/23/12 03:08 AM

Your joking right! Both kids were just hanging on the head. There was no "Knee Block". They fell, she happened to be on top.

And I agree with Bronco Wrestler, I did not see a pin either. Nothing for the official to apologize for. I think an excuse is needed and it has to be the official. 6U parents are like the 6U kids, not really sure what is going on, but trying like hell and crying when the match is over. [/quote]

It is "you're"- not your. But that might explain why you didn't see her reach down and grab his knee- thus resulting in him falling backward.

No excuse, she won by pin. But whosoever should question a ref should be banished! So sayeth the ref-club. When in doubt, chase people from the gym and call them cry babies.

Hey...wonder why that kshsaa official was available for the weekend in ottawa instead of being at numerous regional hs meets? I know! Probably downgraded and not invited. Bet he is free State weekend too.
Posted By: Beeson Re: 6 & under state official - 02/23/12 03:10 AM
Offical was slow...Official didn't want a girl to win...She would have won if it would have went all three periods...The Other Kid was pinned...you are giving this little wrestler every excuse in the world. How about parenting up and saying good match, you wrestled hard but lost. Lets work hard and try to do better next time.
Posted By: Bronco Wrestler Re: 6 & under state official - 02/23/12 03:11 AM
Originally Posted By: gofigure
Hey...wonder why that kshsaa official was available for the weekend in ottawa instead of being at numerous regional hs meets? I know! Probably downgraded and not invited. Bet he is free State weekend too.


If you really want to know why he wasn't at a regional on Sunday the 19th, it's because the 654321A Regional wrestling tournaments were held on Friday the 17th and Saturday the 18th. He probably had Sunday off and took the initiative to give back to the kids community.

What would I know though, I'm just part of that "ref club".
Posted By: gofigure Re: 6 & under state official - 02/23/12 03:19 AM
That's cool. Being there is a big thing.

I didn't just see video either. Heard from the girl's coach. Heard from opposing wrestler's dad/coach.

Issue is the angle ref was at -vs. angle video was from. Better shot than ref had from 6 feet above.

Another ref told me a ref has to have reaction time to get to the mat- that it was a pin- but ref wasn't there to see it- he needed reaction time. I laughed- only 5 seconds. But he stuck to the brotherhood- because is takes time to get there.
Posted By: Beeson Re: 6 & under state official - 02/23/12 03:22 AM
If you have no tissue, go to the restroom and get some toilet paper, but please stop crying all over this topic.
Posted By: Bronco Wrestler Re: 6 & under state official - 02/23/12 03:23 AM
You guys seem to be missing the point that, although he wasn't down on the mat ASAP, he can still clearly see that the shoulder is being held off the mat. It's not hard to see. You can see that from above, the side, etc.

If you haven't ever officiated I would like to extend an invitation to each and every one of you guys to join the brotherhood of officials. Send your $5 to Mike Juby and get registered and go from there.
Posted By: gofigure Re: 6 & under state official - 02/23/12 03:28 AM
He was there Saturday too. Which is why I said "weekend". Not "Sunday".

I bet when he chased the woman out of the gym that was his giving back!

Notice both issues are with females?
Posted By: ReDPloyd Re: 6 & under state official - 02/23/12 03:40 AM
The thing about the sport of wrestling is that kids at this age may not ever compete beyond the youth program. Our oldest son wrestled three years and was done by the age of ten. Our second son has wrestled for eleven years and competes with the best in the state. Our third son has wrestled three years and took this year off so his mom and I could decide if it is for him. Our last son will be turning five in March, so we will have to see if it is for him.

My point is, the goal is for them to wrestle in high school or further. I used to get wrapped up in these things when my two oldest sons were young, but just having one compete at the highest level in the state in high school is more important than what I experienced when they were six and eight.
Posted By: Jfer Re: 6 & under state official - 02/23/12 11:08 AM
That is so true. It does put it all into perspective. I like how we can all give our opinions, suggestions and thoughts on here. It is helpful because to our kids (especially 6U) we want to have any sport remain a positive one (therefore not talking about things we might write to adults).
Posted By: HEADUP Re: 6 & under state official - 02/23/12 11:08 AM
Originally Posted By: Bronco Wrestler


If you haven't ever officiated I would like to extend an invitation to each and every one of you guys to join the brotherhood of officials. Send your $5 to Mike Juby and get registered and go from there.


i can't wait for Jfer and gofigure to join the brotherhood. Come on fellas it's $5, a simple test over the rules, and initiation. Don't be scared of the brotherhood initiation though, it would probably be hazing if we were a club, or fraternity, but since we are a brotherhood it's all good.

two pieces of advice, make sure you have clean underwear, and a good pair of sneakers. Oh and better find out if your allergic to goat hair.

seriously though, the hardest group to officiate are the novice wrestles, and the worst coaches/ parents are the novice group. the hardest thing for all, the referee, gofigure, beeson, bronco wr., jfer, is that they were all novice once too. the next thing to accept that perhaps a mistake was made, maybe not, the life lesson for that young wrestler has to be taught, by her parents/ coach. things don't always go your way, you can't dwell on it, you have to learn from it, get better and move on. from the looks of the above posts the lesson will have to be learned by parents/ coaches, before it can be taught.
Posted By: Jfer Re: 6 & under state official - 02/23/12 11:25 AM
Just an FYI I an not a parent of a wrestler. My daughter is 21 years old (and is a dancer) and my son is 8 years old (and does football/basketball/baseball). I had went to the meet to think about putting him in it. It was my first one and I by no means ever would have suggested that I know enough to be a ref (nor would I want to be one). I only heard a ref on another mat say it was a pin as well as the person that ran the 6U event. I just stated above how I like that we can all write our opinons and it putting things into perspective so not sure why you would include me in the above post.
Posted By: HEADUP Re: 6 & under state official - 02/23/12 12:02 PM
Originally Posted By: Jfer
I would be so grateful if the ref was shown this video and said he was sorry for missing the obvious call.


I applogize, but this is why i mentioned you in my above point.

in the post this morning we were posting at about the same time, and you make a good statement about looking out for the kids best interest.

you do make good points about setting examples in all of your posts, that is very important.

however when you have 5 referees ( 4 on the forum, plus the one officiating the match) see NO FALL, and two (on video the day of the tournament) see FALL, it doesn't seem so OBVIOUS anymore. deos it?

i would say that i hope this event didn't sway you in your decision to let your son wrestle. The 6u state tournament at Ottawa is not a good tournament for novice wrestlers.

There are too many wrestlers, the venue isn't large enough,the noise and crowd add pressure to young athletes. How much control do you think an umpire would have if there were 20 parents on the base paths screaming during a t-ball game??? The 6u kids should be apart of the Kansas Kids state series just like every other age group. Subs-District- and State are all tough tournaments, but the pressure of combing those into a one day event is too much for the hosts, the coaches, the parents, the officials, and most importantly the kids.
Posted By: Jfer Re: 6 & under state official - 02/23/12 12:51 PM
Oh I agree it was way too many people down by the mats. I have only been to one so I wasn't sure if that was "normal". It was way to crowded making it hard on the ref's i'm sure. I'll probably go to a few more matches before deciding if i'll put my son in it. Truthfully I'm not sure if it would be his sport. He does well on team sports where they work together to accomplish a goal but as an individual he's a bit of a wimp smile! I am glad so many wrote it does help in understanding the ref's decision.
Posted By: Blast2l! Re: 6 & under state official - 02/23/12 01:21 PM
On a plus note! Ive noticed a huge increase of talent/tough 6 year olds over the last 6 or 7 years!
Posted By: gofigure Re: 6 & under state official - 02/23/12 02:25 PM
So a few weighed in contrary...on here. Others have agreed with coaches and people at the meet. Obviously we have to accept the decision made by the official. If he had been on the met sooner- would have been better.

Meanwhile- youtube views are nearing 100- what do all those folks think? I know I shared with folks in the sport- college coach, hs coaches, and state champ wrestlers- they ALL thought that was the end of the match.

If I had just said watch this- how many would have thought the same? Instead I wanted a critique of positioning.

Those can disagree- doesn't make me any less right.
Posted By: doug747 Re: 6 & under state official - 02/23/12 04:36 PM
Originally Posted By: doug747
That was probably Mark Anderson. And it wasn't 6u state, it was 6u world intergalactic cosmospherical olympic championships.........Or at least that is what some people thought........



Apparently, some people thought I was serious when I called it the 6u world intergalactic cosmospherical olympic championships
Posted By: Bronco Wrestler Re: 6 & under state official - 02/23/12 05:04 PM
Originally Posted By: gofigure

Meanwhile- youtube views are nearing 100- what do all those folks think? I know I shared with folks in the sport- college coach, hs coaches, and state champ wrestlers- they ALL thought that was the end of the match.

Those can disagree- doesn't make me any less right.


You're experts can agree, doesn't make them any less wrong.

Unless they are the official on the mat their opinion doesn't matter, nor does mine. Only his matters and he has already made his ruling.
Posted By: HEADUP Re: 6 & under state official - 02/23/12 05:37 PM
Originally Posted By: gofigure
So a few weighed in contrary...on here. Others have agreed with coaches and people at the meet. Obviously we have to accept the decision made by the official. If he had been on the met sooner- would have been better.

Meanwhile- youtube views are nearing 100- what do all those folks think? I know I shared with folks in the sport- college coach, hs coaches, and state champ wrestlers- they ALL thought that was the end of the match.

If I had just said watch this- how many would have thought the same? Instead I wanted a critique of positioning.

Those can disagree- doesn't make me any less right.


here's my biggest issue.

what are you doing to fix it?
the official on the mat has the final call, move on.
this official said FALL, others say NO FALL, move on.

posting a video on youtube, might be helpful, if it's used in the right way. what do you plan to do with the video besides stir up controversy, and belittle a KS certified official? you have found your "jumping off point", but you're gonna have to put some time and effort into this, other wise it's all a bunch of BS.

Will Cokeley has put in extensive time and effort into developing a grading system for KS officials. Something that can be used by officials in a positive manner to get better. I would expect that you will be in contact with Mr. Cokeley, and assist him in making this proposal a reality. I for one am graded everyday at my job, I have made great improvements in my departments, and have been compensated well for my efforts. When you and Mr. Cokeley make the grading proposal, remember that the better officials are going to prove their worth and expect compensation.

please make sure to post some video of yourself, handling your daily duties, i think a training video may be needed so we can ensure that the level of expectations is set as high as possible moving forward.

right or wrong, i hope you have a mistake free day.
Posted By: gofigure Re: 6 & under state official - 02/23/12 07:45 PM
Alex-

you're is a contraction for "you are".

My issue is with being so slow to get to the mat. YOUR responsibilities as a ref include getting on the mat. Your compatriot failed to do that for nearly 5 seconds.

Maybe he was tired. I don't truly know. But within 30 minutes he called a pin from standing up.
Posted By: in it to win it Re: 6 & under state official - 02/23/12 07:46 PM
MOVEON.ORG
Posted By: gofigure Re: 6 & under state official - 02/23/12 07:55 PM
I didn't belittle or berate. Just pointing out the time involved getting down to the mat.

You are right- I hope refs see this and try to get to the mat faster.

Ironically, I have coached multiple sports for decades and we use video to instruct and perfect practice.

Rather than just think you do a good job as a ref- how many study themselves? I asked for a critique of positioning...how many refs take 5 seconds to get to the mat?

Most people are reviewed constantly- refs are probably an anomaly. They have final say- and those that disagree are chased from the gym? (What he did later.)

I suppose this video could be emailed to all the officials on the website and urge them to get to the mat faster...

Let's be the change we wish to see in the world.
Posted By: HEADUP Re: 6 & under state official - 02/23/12 08:06 PM
Originally Posted By: gofigure
I didn't belittle or berate. Just pointing out the time involved getting down to the mat.

You are right- I hope refs see this and try to get to the mat faster.

Ironically, I have coached multiple sports for decades and we use video to instruct and perfect practice.

Rather than just think you do a good job as a ref- how many study themselves? I asked for a critique of positioning...how many refs take 5 seconds to get to the mat?

Most people are reviewed constantly- refs are probably an anomaly. They have final say- and those that disagree are chased from the gym? (What he did later.)

I suppose this video could be emailed to all the officials on the website and urge them to get to the mat faster...

Let's be the change we wish to see in the world.


You seem to have an answer for everything. You throw out some good suggestions, but don't really show a game plan. talk is cheap, and YOU'VE already pointed out that it took 5 seconds to get to the mat. So show us what you plan to do in the future, to better KS wrestling. I you don't all you have done is belittle this official. Whether you can admit it or not, YOU'VE never had a mistake free practice, I don't care how many times you film it. Prove that you can grow this sport, prove that you can implement a grading system. Please don't just re-write my challenges.

Put up or shut up, become an official, prove that you are better. Make the grade, help KS officials be better. We need it for this sport to continue to grow.
Posted By: Rford Re: 6 & under state official - 02/23/12 11:46 PM
I've read the posts and went back and watched video a couple more times with close attention to the wrestler.

All of you who say the official should have gotten down on the mat quicker...you are correct. If he had done so, there would be no controversy. Being in position not only makes the situation easier to see, it makes it easier to sell the call (or no call). Here, for those that think he missed a fall, taking 5 seconds to get into position makes it easy to criticize the official. Had he been down there, he'd have gotten the benefit of the doubt.

But it would not have made any difference. For the first five seconds it is clear as a bell that the kid's left shoulder (right side on the video) is not in constant contact with the mat for two seconds. The official could probably easily see that from his feet and he'd seen these two spin around without much skill for a minute. After those five seconds, the left shoulder is down, but the official is looking at the other side, away from the camera, so you can't see what he is seeing. No doubt it was close. But it is not clearly a fall. But, again, had the official been on his belly quicker he would have not been questioned.
Posted By: nix Re: 6 & under state official - 02/24/12 04:09 AM
you guys get crazier every year, but to weigh in on the subject it was clearly a tie. sry had to get one or two posts before the season is over.
Posted By: S McFee Re: 6 & under state official - 02/24/12 02:51 PM
for those of you who think this post is still important, I suggest reading the TLWC Wrestler thread on the kids board. Puts things in a little more perspective.
Posted By: C Schritter Re: 6 & under state official - 02/24/12 05:01 PM
Oldguy you are absolutly correct. That article kind of makes you realize what is important in life. And it is six and under state is it really going to be something that is remembered in 10 years? Not to take away from the kids there because if I could do it again my kids would go, but the young man from TLWC is the one that we should all be thinking about. But that is just my opinion.
Posted By: Jfer Re: 6 & under state official - 02/24/12 06:29 PM
I agree it sure does put it in perspective. My prayers are with him and his family.
Posted By: Cokeley Re: 6 & under state official - 02/25/12 04:09 PM
I am surprised Mark was hired to do the 6U State. It would be difficult for anyone to make the adjustment from the FILA level to the wild scrambles you get at a 6U mat. On top of that, there is siginficant liability involved, if Mark tripped and fell he would crush almost any pair of 6U wrestlers.

I think, from reading this stream, it is time to consider, seriously, moving this tournament to the Salina Bicentennial Arena. 2013, the Sunday after 4A state.
Posted By: Blast2l! Re: 6 & under state official - 02/25/12 04:56 PM
Agreed with every word Will!
Posted By: bockman Re: 6 & under state official - 02/25/12 05:07 PM
agree. i talked to a couple that had a kid place. they still had to drive to hugoton. i think she said it was a 7 hour drive and it was already 8:00 in Ottawa so that puts them home at around 3:00am and have to work on Monday morning. Not real fond of the Bi-centenial rules of not being able to bring in even a bottle of water though. like the building site but those rules suck.
Posted By: L.Geyer Re: 6 & under state official - 02/26/12 04:14 AM
I am not going to comment on the video, and I was not there. But one question I have is. Why do many tournaments put their least experienced officials on the 6u mats? I agree these would be a nightmare to officiate, so wouldn't it make since to put your experienced refs here. I know this has been a question among many coaches at different tournaments.
Posted By: Easton's Dad Re: 6 & under state official - 02/26/12 04:20 AM
I have been reading this post for so long now it makes my head spin. My vote is to LET IT GO. IT IS OVER. There are so many other things to worry about in this world. Unless you call the kids back to the mat IT IS OVER. Sorry just had to vent....
Posted By: Cokeley Re: 6 & under state official - 02/26/12 04:32 AM
Originally Posted By: bockman
agree. i talked to a couple that had a kid place. they still had to drive to hugoton. i think she said it was a 7 hour drive and it was already 8:00 in Ottawa so that puts them home at around 3:00am and have to work on Monday morning. Not real fond of the Bi-centenial rules of not being able to bring in even a bottle of water though. like the building site but those rules suck.


I will do all i can to get that relaxed but it might not be possible.
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