Kansas Wrestling
Posted By: Allie Definition of novice - 01/06/13 05:27 PM
What is the definition of a novice wrestler?
Posted By: HEADUP Re: Definition of novice - 01/06/13 06:53 PM
USA Wrestling Kansas does not have a definition for a "novice wrestler". So Allie, you will more than likely see many different opinions, and scenarios that other feel SHOULD define a novice wrestler. Sadly it seems to happen every year, and every year more and more "novice" tournaments are held. Good Luck on your search, but more than likely you will just find that no one can really agree on "NOVICE WRESTLING".

I really haven't ever seen another sport that has a novice division. Not in little league baseball, not in flag football, not in basketball, not in swimming, nor soccer, etc. However I don't think a novice bracket is a bad thing in wrestling, but there should be guidelines.
Posted By: hotrodder54 Re: Definition of novice - 01/06/13 07:35 PM
If your questioning your own wrestlers being novice or not. I your not sure then you should move them up. Nobody benefits from being dominate all the time. Losing is learning.

I've seen wrestlers who never get used to losing end up hating wrestling because they dominated novice and hated opens because they lost matches.

That said this is what i was told the definition of novice

wrestler has no more than 2 years experience
wrestler has not taken 1st in more that 2 novice tournaments
wrestler has tried and never placed in an open wrestling BRACKET not round robin
Posted By: Beeson Re: Definition of novice - 01/06/13 08:44 PM
Definition: Wrestler who wrestles in a watered down bracket so Mom and Dad can brag about a medal.
Posted By: Allie Re: Definition of novice - 01/06/13 09:08 PM
The reason I asked this question is because I noticed some younger kids that have been wrestling 3-5 years who are still wrestling as a novice. I don't agree with that.
I was told when my son was a first year wrestler to not put him in anymore novice tournaments as he got nothing from walking out on the mat and having no competition. So, we didn't do novice anymore. But, in reality, if a kid has been wrestling federation for 5 years and is STILL not dominating at the novice level someone needs to do some soul searching... most likely the parent that is forcing the kid to wrestle?
Posted By: Teamroper Re: Definition of novice - 01/06/13 10:55 PM
If my boy is the 3X Novice State champion, that's bad.... Lol
Posted By: Donedidit Re: Definition of novice - 01/07/13 01:57 AM
Beeson, I think your definition is a bit rude and condescending towards new wrestlers. My kids are 5 and 7, I want them to learn to enjoy wrestling and just give it a try. My 7 yr olds first tournament was an open and it was really tough, we went to a novice next to show her that she can have some success and keep learning and improving, and it worked. She is excited to continue with wrestling and wants to work hard to learn. And at 5 yrs old I want to see my son ENJOY, SMILE, TRY. Expertise and drive will come later and my kids won't be burnt out. I think the parents bragging about NOT wrestling novice are the ones trying build a rep for themselves based on their kid competing. There are different levels of wrestlers, and different reasons for competing. Everyone should be allowed to sample the sport and grow at a pase they are comfortable with. If my kids never win, but keep trying and learning them I am proud of them. Trophies and medals turn to dust, but the lessons learned on the mat build character that will lead our kids to be confident in who they are in life. THAT is the true reward.
Posted By: mcpdad Re: Definition of novice - 01/07/13 02:06 AM
Tracy, I couldn't believe it even when I had read it. Before you open your mouth. No one had to read it to me either!
Posted By: Beeson Re: Definition of novice - 01/07/13 02:10 AM
My definition was meant to be a bit rude and condescending. I have said it before and will continue to say that 6U are all novice. It is amazing how many kids will wrestle both Novice and Open at 6U. I am also amazed at how there will only be 6 kids in Open, but 25 in Novice. As a society, we look for the easy way out. I would say there could possibly be a place for Novice in 8U and 10U. The problem is that too many people abuse the Novice status. Not a fan of Novice...that's just how I feel.
Posted By: Donedidit Re: Definition of novice - 01/07/13 02:37 AM
Why would you welcome new wrestling families into a sport by purposefully bashing what they do? That is a good way to kill a sport. I completely agree that people should move their wrestlers up and cause them to grow and be challenged. But it is not the fault of young wrestlers and their parents if there are no restrictions clearly outlined. Bash the poor management, bash the club directors that allow their kids to keep going to novice events, bash the clubs that charge entry yet don't hire decent officials ("hey teenage kid come blow this whistle", but don't be condescending to new families who are learning the ropes.
Posted By: Beeson Re: Definition of novice - 01/07/13 03:00 AM
I wasn't bashing new parents that are learning. I was bashing parents that were out Trophy Hunting. I was bashing Novice as a whole. I am pretty sure that 5,6, and 7 years olds are not reading this thread, so I am not bashing the kids either. The kids are just doing what the adults have them do. There are No Novice Football games,Novice baseball games or Novice b@$*%&ball games. Why should we have Novice Wrestling? So everybody feels like they did well? The only reason I see for Novice, is it is a good money maker. Some Momma's and Daddy's don't mind paying an extra $15 for a chance to win an easy medal. Crap, in Oklahoma where they have a standard for being novice, I have seen dad's forfeit a match so the child would not win and still be considered novice. RIDICULOUS!!!
Posted By: VacantOne Re: Definition of novice - 01/07/13 03:04 AM
They should just do away with novice. They allready have an A bracket and 2 or 3 B brackets at most tournaments. I agree with Beeson. My sons weight had 4 brackets this weekend in an open tournament. There's pleanty of room for new people and beginners in non state placer or state placer brackets. I think novice is all about the money you make for the novice tournaments.

Id totally get novice if all tournaments were double elimination but they aren't. Most have multiple round robin. Just my opinion though.

To awnser the original post a true Novice Imo should be a first or second year wrestler with ZERO first places in any Open tournament.
Posted By: Jeremy Roberts Re: Definition of novice - 01/07/13 06:06 AM
I rarely respond, but I wanted to get my two cents in on this discussion. My oldest son started wrestling this year and has some learning disabilities (if you want more info on my son just send me a message). We have currently entered him in two tournaments Paola Open and then the Olathe Novice he is currently 0-6 (been pinned all six times)both were round robins. I am glad he was able to get in round robins because it gets him mat time and he is enjoying it. With his learning disabilities I am not sure how long it will take him to compete at an open level so I think you have to look at each child, case by case. A guideline is great but sometimes you need to look further.

Since I took a few lines talking about my oldest I am going to do the same about my youngest (four year old). He has picked up on things very quickly, just from watching between me coaching, officiating and watching his brother. Therefore, next year if he still wants to start he will be more advanced than a child that has never been around the sport.

Last thing I want to put is in response to the parents "forcing" the child to wrestle incase my oldest never wins a match but wants to keep going we will never stop him. I had talked to my two younger boys (four and five) about wrestling but not the oldest because of his disabilities. This year he came to me and said he wanted to wrestle, I about fell over because I never thought he would want too. On the same point my middle son wants nothing to do with wrestling and I will not push him to the sport, and if at some point he decides he wants too its his call and my wife and I will support him either way.
Posted By: shawnbudke Re: Definition of novice - 01/08/13 02:46 PM
Allie,

Last year I was asked to lead a committee for the state and try to develop a standard definition for novice. The idea was that the state could then adopt a standard definition. The committe had representatives from every district. We came up with about 5 options that were supposed to be presented to the districts and then taken to the state board. We could not gain consensus nor was there a lot of momentum to continue trying to define Novice so the issue was tabled. The state decided to leave the definition up to the tournament directors.

Here's what I personally learned from that process along with coaching for the past 10 years in KS...

1. I was not a big fan of Novice when we started seeing more Novice tournaments. I have changed my mind because I have seen it keep kids in wrestling until it finally "clicks" for them.

2. Some kids can legitimally be Novice for about 3-4 years depending on their skill set, their aggressiviness, maturity, etc. I have had kids legitemally wrestle novice for four years because they didn't even win matches in the pure novice meets. Then all of a sudden it clicked for them.

3. On the other hand, I have had kids that it "clicks" for them right away and don't wrestle Novice at all. Do we have folks that "trophy hunt"...yep. However, I think they are a small minority and I would hate to throw the baby out with the bathwater because of a very small population.

BLUF: As coaches and club directors we have a responsibility to monitor our our wrestlers and more importantly their parents expectations. This can cause some uncomfortable conversations but it is necessary for the good of the sport.

Just my 2 cents.

Shawn Budke

Bluff:
Posted By: master blaster Re: Definition of novice - 01/08/13 04:08 PM
Went looking on the oklahoma kids site but could not find thier rules or guide lines concerning novice! Would like to see what the okies consider novice?
Posted By: Sig Re: Definition of novice - 01/08/13 04:20 PM
NOVICE - Any 1st or 2nd year wrestler who has not placed 1st or 2nd in any open tournament with 6 or more wrestlers in their bracket. The wrestler counts as 1. May not be a novice for more than two years.

http://www.okseries.com/bylaws.php#novice
Posted By: John Taylor Re: Definition of novice - 01/08/13 05:32 PM

This is about as good as anyone can put it. Great thoughts Shawn! For those of you who don't like novice or want to do away with it, all that would do is help kill the sport of wrestling. Don't let the small majority of trophy seekers ruin a great way to keep young ones wrestling.

Originally Posted By: shawnbudke
Allie,

Last year I was asked to lead a committee for the state and try to develop a standard definition for novice. The idea was that the state could then adopt a standard definition. The committe had representatives from every district. We came up with about 5 options that were supposed to be presented to the districts and then taken to the state board. We could not gain consensus nor was there a lot of momentum to continue trying to define Novice so the issue was tabled. The state decided to leave the definition up to the tournament directors.

Here's what I personally learned from that process along with coaching for the past 10 years in KS...

1. I was not a big fan of Novice when we started seeing more Novice tournaments. I have changed my mind because I have seen it keep kids in wrestling until it finally "clicks" for them.

2. Some kids can legitimally be Novice for about 3-4 years depending on their skill set, their aggressiviness, maturity, etc. I have had kids legitemally wrestle novice for four years because they didn't even win matches in the pure novice meets. Then all of a sudden it clicked for them.

3. On the other hand, I have had kids that it "clicks" for them right away and don't wrestle Novice at all. Do we have folks that "trophy hunt"...yep. However, I think they are a small minority and I would hate to throw the baby out with the bathwater because of a very small population.

BLUF: As coaches and club directors we have a responsibility to monitor our our wrestlers and more importantly their parents expectations. This can cause some uncomfortable conversations but it is necessary for the good of the sport.

Just my 2 cents.

Shawn Budke

Bluff:
Posted By: sportsfan02 Re: Definition of novice - 01/08/13 06:24 PM
I approach it from the opposite direction. Open wrestler = any time a parent or coach asks if the wrestler in question should be in the open or novice class, they ARE an Open wrestler. If you have to ask that question, then the answer is always OPEN class.
Posted By: Beeson Re: Definition of novice - 01/08/13 08:19 PM
Originally Posted By: sportsfan02
I approach it from the opposite direction. Open wrestler = any time a parent or coach asks if the wrestler in question should be in the open or novice class, they ARE an Open wrestler. If you have to ask that question, then the answer is always OPEN class.


I agree 100%.
Posted By: Hossus Re: Definition of novice - 01/08/13 09:58 PM
I do think we need to have Novice class mainly to keep the open tournaments unclogged with new kids who will be beat up at them.

The okies have even discussed changing their version of novice to only 1st year wrestlers period. This would solve most of the problems for us as well and could be easily tracked through wrestler USAW registration at the beginning of the season. This would still give new wrestlers the option to wrestle both open and novice.

If a kid got hurt during his first year and had to sit out say 75% of the season they could maybe petition for another year of Novice. I am sure some kids with Special needs would be able to do this as well.

Well, that's what I have to offer on the matter.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Definition of novice - 01/08/13 10:21 PM

If your kid is getting first every Sunday then its time to move him/her to Saturday.
Posted By: Rise & Shine Re: Definition of novice - 01/10/13 05:14 PM
What is your thoughts on a 2nd year kid that has had some success, letting him wrestling up an age division or weight class in novice?
Posted By: VacantOne Re: Definition of novice - 01/10/13 05:25 PM
If he's successful enough to wrestle up a weight class and division its time to take the binky out and let him wrestle OPEN's sorry.

Example: My son's second year many years ago, it was his 2nd season, he'd had some success in Novice and had one open 1st. Saying that that was in many tournaments, he had alot of 2 and outs, but his wrestling coach at the time saw him wrestle one tournament his 2nd season as novice and he won easily and said no more novices. I completely agreed with him. He went on to have a mediocre season in the OPEN division only making it to 5th at Regionals and not making state, but that made him better. You learn from your losses and you only get better by trying harder and putting in the time, effort, and practice to get better. If you stay novice to only succeed against novices, your only hurting yourself, and your hurting the kids who are truely novice that are trying to get better.

If your kid is not winning and not having "Success" novice on a 2nd year isnt a bad thing, but if you have to even ask about a 2nd year kid with "Success" wrestling up an age division or weight, its time to move to OPEN's period.
Posted By: Beeson Re: Definition of novice - 01/10/13 10:33 PM
Originally Posted By: Rise & Shine
What is your thoughts on a 2nd year kid that has had some success, letting him wrestling up an age division or weight class in novice?


My Thoughts: Ridiculous, Idiotic, Moronic, Selfish, Ignorant, and the one that stands out the most....TROPHY HUNTER!!!
Posted By: DParent Re: Definition of novice - 01/11/13 01:35 PM
Wasn't there a Beeson at the Derby Novice Tournament?
Posted By: Beeson Re: Definition of novice - 01/11/13 02:27 PM
Yes there was. There was actually 2. One of them is 4 and the other is 6. They are my brothers boys and I have talked to him and the 6 year old will not be wrestling novice anymore. Still not sure what the actions of one person has to do with the opinions of another. For the record, my boy wrestled novice his first year all the way up until Salina. He was 3 and I was new to the concept. If I had to do it again, we would not have wrestled novice. Any more questions D?
Posted By: Spexy Re: Definition of novice - 01/12/13 02:19 AM
Ok, I've read all the posts, some good some, not so good. I've been coaching for 8yrs. Now, I have a 13 and 11yr. old. Are they the same NO!! They are just different (styles of wrestling). In my opinion, no matter what age, if you are new to the sport, try novice. If you are whipping everyone week in and week out its time to move on. You may not win very many or any at all in an open, but it gives you something to strive for. Even as good as mine are they still get beat here and there, and still keep working hard and coming back each week to get that win. Remember this people this is a one-on-one sport, your day will come. Medal hunting will get you know where in this sport. Wrestling the best the sport has to offer, will someday make you a champion!!
Posted By: kmcglothin Re: Definition of novice - 02/06/13 07:36 PM
I'm going to put my 2 cent's in here even though I'm new and this thread has been dead for a bit.

Novice tournaments are not a bad thing. My 5 year old who is in his second year of wrestling but 1st year of actively participating in tournaments as he only did 1 tournament last year which was at his home club. But at the end of this year will have done 7 is still a novice. I have to say that since he has done novice tournaments he has improved. He went to the OCWKC Novice tournament and realized that his matches were suppose to be somewhat longer then a few seconds. He also has realized that he needs to push himself and try not just lay there on his back which he did at his open tournaments because he was against opponents that already had things click for him. Then last Sunday he went to Silver Lake Novice/Open and actually made his first pin.

Since he has such a hard time at opens, does this mean he won't be in open tournaments? No! He actually enjoys himself and comes off the mat smiling. I don't want to watch my son get whooped on every time he's in a tournament but I do know he needs that experience. If it was a fact that he didn't seem to enjoy himself then we would have to re look at his options and reevaluate the wrestling option for him. Novice tournaments are a great thing for our kids but does need a limit on when the kids can enter them.

In all honesty I'd love to see my son get into a novice tournament next year but then again he may not need it. I need to keep an eye on him and just see how he does these next two tournaments and what ever tournaments he does next year and talk to his coaches. But have a feeling the club will tell me no they won't allow him in a novice tournament, which is fine. And after next year if he decides he wants to wrestle and continue he won't be doing novice he will have 2 good years of experience under his belt besides practice under his belt. And in all honest if he had his way he'd do every tournament he could sign up for if we would let him but I don't want him to get burned out.

Please don't take me as a medal or trophy hunter because I'm not. I would rather see my son earn his medals and have something to be proud of then be given them just because he participated. And I have been know to say in front of him that he has earned a medal and trophy by default because he didn't win any of his matches. But when he won his 3rd place at his last tournament I told him he actually earned it. And I was very proud of him. Right now his reward for trying is a shirt which will be ending in a couple of years also because I want him to understand that he's there to try not just to get a shirt for participating. To some of you I probably spoil him that way but for now that is a way for him to at least not come home empty handed and he will still be able to have something from that tournament to look at later.

As far as those that want to go to a Novice so their kids can get 1st place or what ever then that's just not fair to the kids that actually need to be there to get some experience and be against someone that is on their own level. To me novice tournaments should be for kids that are against kids that are on their own level. If my son was known for getting 3rd or better on his own accord in an open tournament then I would have rethought entering him in novice tournaments. There would be no reason he would need the experience he gets from novice tournaments.

Sorry for my long response but I felt that since this is also my second year of dealing with wrestling that my opinion needed to be heard. In all honesty I feel that the 2 novice tournaments have helped things click for him. He has learned that one he needs to not give up just because he's on his back, two that a match is suppose to last longer then just a few seconds and last that yes he can win a match if he tries hard enough. And I have one more thing to add, my son's second match his opponent may have been at an unfair disadvantage but that was not my intentions but then again I've seen a new wrestler pin my son also so it all depends on the wrestler.
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