Kansas Wrestling
Posted By: Coachjt Should we redistrict? - 10/03/02 01:13 PM
District 1 had 2,774 wrestlers
District 2 had 1,727 wrestlers
District 3 had 1,517 wrestlers
District 4 had 1,605 wrestlers

District 1 has trouble finding facilities for their subs, have long lasting subs, and they are also crowded.
I just wanted to get your opinion on whether we should consider moving a few teams around?
Posted By: coach gibson Re: Should we redistrict? - 10/03/02 04:08 PM
Most definately. As a coach, I have a hard time accepting the fact that the weekend of sub district, I have the possibility of being in a building till 8:00 to 10:00 at night with athletes as young as six or seven. That's a long day for everyone, especially a young kid.

We're trying to promote a sport, not run kids and parents off because of the unbearable day.

Some would respond, it's only one weekend. But if you look at the numbers, it's to the point that if something doesn't change, we will have to make the tourney two days long. As a coach, that's two days away from my wife (no kids yet, I do this because I love the sport). Other coaches from District 1 feel the same way.

Coach Gibson
Posted By: usawks1 Re: Should we redistrict? - 10/04/02 01:23 AM
It is a tough issue to say the least! District 1 is already, geographically the smallest yet they have the largest numbers!

While I won't make the blanket statement for all coaches in District 1, I will say that they are concerned. But are they ready to change?

Tournaments lasting into the evening are not what we want. But driving to Wichita, Mulvane, Derby, Clay Center, Emporia, (all fine locations) for a sub-district and district tourney, may not be what "District One" wants either!

I do appreciate all the work Coach JT put in to his re-alignment proposal. But if it stays as is, Coach Gibby and the rest of Shawnee County, will likely be facing a drive on at least Sub or District weekend, as they are slotted to go West.

I say this with a bit of reservation but most clubs of District One are absolutely spoiled by their short drives and thus their short days. I am sure District Four would gladly make a trade.

I do feel that District One is destined to get even smaller in area yet continue to grow in numbers. Currently, we have about 62 active clubs and are adding at least 4, this season.

I don't know what the answer is but I feel certain that this will be a Hot Topic for this wrestling season!

Randy Hinderliter
District 1 Director
Posted By: Kids Wrestling Fan Re: Should we redistrict? - 10/04/02 03:32 PM
I believe the numbers speak for themselves. Being the smallest district, maybe we should look into splitting into a north and south district or even putting the KC and Topeka clubs in to a Metro District. With that number of wrestlers, I don't believe the competition will change and it may even make new clubs and new club members feel like they have a chance to make it. It is already to schedule a tourney in District 1 and not have to share a weekend with 2 or 3 other clubs. I really think this is a topic that needs to be addressed soon.
Posted By: wizard_03 Re: Should we redistrict? - 10/05/02 04:46 PM
ok
Posted By: Zahm Dad Re: Should we redistrict? - 10/05/02 05:31 PM
The Pittsburg Mini-Wrestling Club hosted our sub-district last year at the Pittsburg State University gymnasium. We were not there any later than many of the tournaments we attend throughout the year, and all of the wrestling was done on either a full mat or at least a half mat. There was plenty of seating, as well as plenty of officials and the tournament was extremely organized. I had no complaints. Personally I would enjoy having it there every year. Maybe districts as well.
Posted By: Husker Fan Re: Should we redistrict? - 10/07/02 07:35 PM
It sounds like there is some plan already on the drawing board. What does an initial plan look like? I am assuming we still have to be talking about just four districts.
Posted By: Noblet Re: Should we redistrict? - 10/14/02 03:48 PM
Randy's post kept getting my attention. We are really spoiled in district I. On any given weekend we can go to a tournament, take an hour to drive there and be out by three. We have the internet to choose which tournament probably has the best competition but those tournaments won't be out by three. Other districts, some other States don't have any choice. If they want to attend any tournament they make a drive. I would much rather be in a gym around the action than be behind the wheel. If your "Sweating with the Best" in Topeka and your in the finals your going to get out late. That's wrestling! How does that effect dist.I if that tournament ends up in dist.III? Does it matter? We already drive to Salina, Manhatten,the Classic, Tulsa, MacPhearson?
If your in the finals, Your there late!
Dist.I sends four kids to State, some very talented wrestlers don't make the trip. If we redistrict will that be a benifit to some dist.I wrestlers. I would voice my oppinions towards what is best for the kids rather than districts or coaches.
Posted By: TRAVIUS.com Re: Should we redistrict? - 10/17/02 12:21 AM
Let’s not be too shallow. Let’s look at the REAL situation. According to posted information obtained from the website membership for the four geographically aligned districts are:

District 1....2,774....36%
District 2.....1,727.....23%
District 3.....1,517.....20%
District 4.....1,605.....21%

If this information is right District 1 is largely disproportionate. District 1 is on average 15% larger and contains at least 1,050 more wrestlers then the next closest district. This amount is enough to form a very competitive 5th District (Not that I’m suggesting that).

District alignment has to true meaning this it's time for the State Tournament Series. Now considering that everyone’s goal is to make it to the state tournament, which is a collection of the BEST wrestlers from each of the four districts, each district will send about 416 wrestlers to state (4 from each age/weight). District 1 will send home about 2,300 kids who fail to qualify for the State Tournament. This means that 85% of District will not make the State Tournament. District 2, the next closest district in population, will only send home 1,300. The numbers are not even close.

One of the major objectives of sports is to provide “fair competition.” It is our job to maintain a fair playing field. I have personally seen sub district brackets in District 1 stacked with potential state placers but the numbers tell us that only four can make it where the same weight in another district maybe a round robin.

Updating the geographically alignment of the districts may be the BEST solution for this problem. District need to be aligned so that the best meet the best at state. Even though coming into the state tournament all district are represented by even numbers district 1 has been bring home by far the most state medals. There are far many other wrestlers in District 1 wrestlers who have that same potential who are eliminated at the district level due STRICTLY TO LARGE NUMBERS.

Forget about money, forget about time, and forget about the extra work. I love wrestling, my coaches love wrestling, and my wrestlers LOVE wrestling. We do this for them, to give each and everyone of them the chance to compete in fair on a level playing field. I’ll drive the extra hour to give this opportunity to my kids.
Posted By: L Grater Re: Should we redistrict? - 10/17/02 08:29 PM
The numbers that were used for redistricting were done by
the number of membership cards sold, if I am correct. As
we all know, not everyone purchasing a card participates at
the qualifying tournaments. There are 6-year old who choose
not to compete, as well as 16+ year olds that only wrestle
during the summer.

I would be interested in knowing the "exact" number of wrestlers
EACH CLUB had at sub-district. If any of the sub-district sites from
2002 have those numbers, would you please email to us at
gratergr@kansas.net

Leanna Grater
Posted By: Mike Juby Re: Should we redistrict? - 10/18/02 03:32 AM
John Terrell has done quite a bit of work in reviewing the possible alternative district alignments, and he provided me with a summary of the two best options he could come up with. As Leanna said, these options were based on cards sold. I have created sample maps based on his work, which you can see by clicking here .

There have been some very good points raised in this forum, and I expect we'll hear some more at the state body meeting. I will make one correction to Travius' post, which made some solid arguments, but also included one factual error, in his statement that:
Quote:
Even though coming into the state tournament all district are represented by even numbers district 1 has been bring home by far the most state medals.
In fact, the total medal count in the last state tournament was as follows:
District 1 - 167 (1055 pts, 30 champions)
District 2 - 174 (1247 pts, 36 champions)
District 3 - 132 ( 937 pts, 29 champions)
District 4 - 132 ( 660 pts, 9 champions)

Therefore, although District 1 did have a very strong showing at the state tournament, it did not take home the most medals. Prior years have not been substantially different than these results.
Posted By: TRAVIUS.com Re: Should we redistrict? - 10/18/02 10:34 AM
I stand corrected :-)
Posted By: usawks1 Re: Should we redistrict? - 10/18/02 11:52 AM
District 1 has approximately 1,300 wrestlers that compete in the two sub-districts and this number has been fairly consistent for the past few years.

Randy
Posted By: Husker Fan Re: Should we redistrict? - 10/18/02 12:29 PM
Mr. Juby, Thank you for including a couple of the proposed re-alignments.

If we had a vote I would vote for the third alignment. My reason would be that just looking at the map that the one county that is in the very southeast portion of the state seems to be closer to the majority of the 2nd district than the majority of the first district(the county is in the second southern most row in the middle of those six counties on the very southeast corner-I would name it but I am unable to make it out on my screen). That is my only reason for liking the third proposal over the second. I think they are both better than the current alignment.
Posted By: Mike Juby Re: Should we redistrict? - 10/18/02 01:04 PM
Here is some additional information about how the two alternative alignments would affect total membership in each district. I don't have the actual numbers of wrestlers from each county that competed in their subdistrict tournament, so these numbers are based on total cards sold:

Option #2
District 1 - 1956
District 2 - 1903
District 3 - 1874
District 4 - 1890

Option #3
District 1 - 1870
District 2 - 1915
District 3 - 1924
District 4 - 1914
Posted By: Husker Fan Re: Should we redistrict? - 10/18/02 01:43 PM
Mr. Juby, Thank you again for the additional information on the numbers. Projecting forward I still believe the 3rd proposal would be better because even though District 1 would have the smallest numbers initially, I believe that situation would not last long. There is some very fast growth taking place in the Kansas City area going South from Overland Park towards Miami County and west from Shawnee towards DeSoto and Lawrence. I believe much of it is being fueled from the Kansas City Missouri area, so it is not just District 1 families relocating. I believe even with the third proposal that District 1 would still have the largest numbers in a short period of time.
Posted By: usawks1 Re: Should we redistrict? - 10/19/02 02:19 AM
Hey Mike, Just wondering ... do you have the map PRIOR to the current alignment?
Posted By: TRAVIUS.com Re: Should we redistrict? - 10/21/02 05:43 AM
What an irrational statement. I would love to find the people who pointed the finger at you. I was at the district one meeting and may have been the main one talking I don’t remember anyone saying that this is a club problem. (This isn’t baseball… the last thing we need is contraction.) OK, OK maybe I’m not the person to speak. My club is relatively new to the whole scene and in a lot of ways I think that last season we were just being accepted. (The first two years were not positive by any stretch of the imagination.) I just invite you to un-personalize it, to look at the picture from an outsider point of view. This is what it would look like.


If u didn’t have any relationship with any wrestling club; if you were just someone walking on the street and someone show you the chart you see above you would say “Man, the building on the far left is a lot taller than the rest.” Not only is District 1’s population tremendously larger and is by far the most disproportionate to the other three districts.
Now ASSUME that half of the wrestlers in each district participate in the state tournament series. Then that number was divided evenly between the two subs. The sub-district breakdown may go somewhat like this.


Ultimately about 250 wrestlers are eliminated from each of the two District one sub-districts. District 1 loses 500 wrestlers through the elimination rounds.
Statistically speaking only about 30-60 kids are eliminated from the two District 2 sub-districts.
District 3 and 4 has nearly a no elimination factor. That means they go to sub just to get seated for district. That mean a kid in a district one sub may have to go and wrestle 5 or 6 time through a 16 man bracket at subs while in another district a wrestler can actually go weigh in, make weight, and go home knowing that he/she have already secured a spot at district.
There are 104 weights in the state tournament series. Multiply that by 4 (the number of places) and you get a potential for 416 medalist advancing. Most of these sub won't even have 416 athletes in attendance.

I ready don’t want to hear the excuses and there are some good ones. Time, travel, relationships, and district ties are all reasonable justification for just leaving the districts the way they are. But then who are we servicing you and your club feelings or the kids who bust their butts all season long for one goal and that goal has two different finish lines. District one is running 2 miles when the rest of the state only have a mile to finish this race. I know a lot of people who can run one mile and pass out before they ever hit mile two. EXAMPLE- I have a kid who wrestled at state. His hardest tournaments were subdistrict, then district, then state. In the first round of state he pinned a guy in about 15 seconds. I can think of many of the wrestlers at the District one sub who put up more resistance.

Wrestling is different from other sports. I talk in great detail about the intangibles of wrestling. The character that it develops and the leaders that our kids become. Our kids have a fond love of the sport. Wrestling is about integrity. I am 21 years old. I started coaching at the age of 18. I have been head wrestling coach at Coronado Middle School in Kansas City for three years. Two years ago I had 6 athletes. This year I have 60 kids signed up which is actually twice as many as the football team. A lot of my wrestlers go to this school and there excitement and energy have spread through out the whole school. I have even had about 15-20 girls ask to sign up in a school with a population of 440. Wrestling is a tradition. A is tradition that is pasted every year. The tradition must change in order for the excitement to remain. The primary theme that I liked about wrestling was that it was fair. Noone was gonna start over be because the coach felt they were better. We have to keep passing the tradition along and except the change that is inevitable. I talk a lot about “fair competition” are we really practicing what we preach?
WYCO WRESTLING

Travius Stokes travius@wycowrestling.com
Posted By: sportsfan02 Re: Should we redistrict? - 10/21/02 11:10 AM
Can someone bring me up to speed as to what deeoh is talking about? Does this person favor redistricting or not?
Posted By: coach gibson Re: Should we redistrict? - 10/21/02 01:23 PM
Some interesting points were brought up and I'd lke to ask a few questions.

One, of all the sub-districts, what time did each end?

Two, considering the time that the tourney ended, what time did the prospective last wrestler get home? Pretend that the last wrestler was in the farthest corner of your district.

I'm interested in the geographical argument. Taking the distances traveled in other districts as opposed to District 1. Are we as a District just whining about time?

Third point. If we are aligning districts to population (card) numbers, let's keep the political not my club to travel out of it.

I can remember working with Coach Knox while down in Wichita. After the high school season, I would help out wherever he needed me. The sub-district tourney in Augusta traditionally ended around 5 or 6 and I would be home in time to take my wife out. Of course some would say that you have made the decision to coach. And in my instance you are absolutely correct.

However, one thing we need in the coaching profession is young blood. Often coaches are also fathers. And one thing us old guys relish is a young buck in the room to show technique and get on the mat with the kids. And often, the young bucks are childless. As a pure marketing and recruitment issue, the young coaches love the sport, but remember the long days and nights. Often, this is not a pleasant memory and I feel could keep them away from coaching. Since there are no kids involved, there is no vested interest in the sport once they are too old. Right now, this is not a problem for me. But I'm not think of the here and now, but the future. How are we making this a sport in which we are bringing in quality athletes that can make quality coaches with the right guidance. Right now, our recruiting tool is a child.

We need to start thinking differently. Is the current district alignment killing the sport? Not at this point in time (future could be a different). Is the fear of long days keeping kids away, maybe. Should we redistrict to ensure equality for all, yes.

I think I rambled a little off topic, but it's how I feel.

coach gibson
Posted By: twister Re: Should we redistrict? - 10/24/02 12:38 AM
This is not meant to be at anyone personally, but the basic issue is, if you are in the you must travel farther and in the east you have a ton more kids. Since this sport is supposed to be about the kids and helping them reach their goals and have a fair playing field; the only logical solution is to have all the districts with the same amount of wrestlers or as close as possible. Of all of the factors this is the only one that is in line with our charters and goals as sponsors of kids wrestling. I agree with coach from wyco 100% The most discouraging thing I heard at the district meeting is that even if dist.1 votes to redistrict 2,3 and vote can against it and it will never pass. How fair is that? Combined with that that 1/2 of district is against it because they will have to travel farther as well. Let's put the kids first.

thanks for listening.
Posted By: take it easy Re: Should we redistrict? - 10/24/02 02:16 AM
I like the idea of of redoing the districts. District 1 has been very tough the last several years. I know this year at 12 under 76,80,84, 88, 92 pounds was stacked there was several state placers that didnt make it out of districts at thses 5 weights and I know one kid at these weights took 4th at districts and took 2nd at state and I know of another kid that took 4th at one of these weights (had to win in double overtime just to make it to state) and made the semi-finals at state before taking 5th in the state. Out of these 5 weights in district one 16 out of the 20 qualifiers placed. I just think redistricting would be good and I think it would help get the best 16 to state but whatever happens you still will have some districts that will be loaded at some weights but thats just the way things are.
Posted By: usawks1 Re: Should we redistrict? - 10/24/02 03:45 AM
This continues to be a HOT topic! One cannot base their opinions, on the competition for a couple of years, because it does even out. Every year at State there are at least two weight classes where kids from the same club meet in the finals. And often, all 4 placers from the same sub, place at State. Distict 1, I am sad to say, does not dominate the State tournament.

One has to give some credence to what Travius offered. If some subs and districts are just wrestling to determine there eventually seeding, then it is inherently unfair to other Districts!
While District 1 has a few unfilled weight classes, they are rare!

But one point brought up by some in our District is this ... certain clubs that were moved several years ago, to equalize the Districts, are the same that are being proposed to move this time. It is hard to feel very "wanted" if you keep getting tossed around.

The one fact that we don't have, is the actual number of wrestlers in each sub-district. This was recognized by John Terrell as being the key. While Travius did a great job of showing us the actual number of wrestlers, it is not comparing apples to apples! Our least attended sub in 2002 had 630 wrestlers in it! If some subs had 4 or 500, and that is a figure that has proven consistent, then we have a true comparision!

I am looking forward to quite a debate at State and propose to Greg Grater that we impose the 3 minute per speaker rule!! :-) Randy
Posted By: Coachjt Re: Should we redistrict? - 10/24/02 03:30 PM
This was brought up to let District I know how lopsided the numbers were and to maybe help them with the crowd & length of their Subs.

There is no proposal to vote on so the other districts aren't going to vote it down. The numbers and possible solutions were give to Randy & District I so they could discuss it and get other peoples thoughts.

The other Districts were to tell their clubs just to let them know what is going on so they are not so surprised when there are changes later.

My opinion is that this something you don't vote on, you just change it (to make it fair all across the State) the following year after you let everyone know what is going on and they all agree on how to change.

As for who moves? We go by Counties and try to even the numbers up the best we can. If they move it is because of location and numbers nothing else. In High School some teams change every year from one district to another or 4A to 5A etc...

I think if we look at the numbers every five years then that won't be as bad with teams changing back and forth? I think it has been around eight years since the last change??
Posted By: deeohh Re: Should we redistrict? - 10/29/02 04:25 AM
I am currently working on a proposal that I will share with everyone at the State meeting on 11-3-02. It will show a more logical view of a future realignment of district 1. One of the options that I have been working endlessly on is to put Wyndotte and Douglas Counties in dist.2 and Johnson and Osage Counties in dist.3, this I believe will make things much simpler. It will keep those high growth areas over there so they won't keep messing up our numbers her in dist 1.
Posted By: sportsfan02 Re: Should we redistrict? - 10/29/02 10:11 AM
Please tell me you're kidding!
Posted By: usawks1 Re: Should we redistrict? - 10/29/02 05:31 PM
Finally, a voice of reason amongst all the chaos!!! LOL

Randy
Posted By: Noblet Re: Should we redistrict? - 11/04/02 04:05 PM
Working over the weekend and didn't make the State meeting. Did this subject bring up a lot of discussion? Are there any proposed changes?
Posted By: Coachjt Re: Should we redistrict? - 11/04/02 04:08 PM
District I is content the way it is now. So at least for the next two years the Districts will stay the same.
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