Does anyone have the state difinition of a novice wrestler?
Thanks.
This seems to be an ongoing problem. Some of the blame is with the parents and some of the blame rests on the coaches.
If the tournament directors would check their results from the previous day alot of these problems would be solved. The problem lies mainly with the money. If they disqualify a wrestler for placing in an open they should refund the novice entry-that's probably not going to happen!
The ultimate responsiblity is with coaches. They should know when their wrestler is not a novice.
The "Rule of thumb" states 2yrs. experiance and not have placed in an open. The "not have placed" part of the equation is not valid as many of the open tourneys are 3-4 man round robin and
all a kid has to do is make weight to place. I have had kids who love wrestling, but will always be novice level no mater how many years they wrestle. So I have allowed them to compete at the novice level regardless of how many years experiance they have, with no complaints.
In my opinion it is the coaches descresion as to if the wrestler is novice or not-he should know.
The clubs having novice tournaments should police this better also. They can check the wrestler against his/her registration as to years wrestled. (This would create more work-probably not going to happen)
If the problem persits submit your concerns to your Dist. Rep.
There are no rules regarding novice qualifications but rather guidelines. It is up to each tournament to decide what if any guidelines they want to use.
Okay, there has been a lot of talk about wrestlers being in the Novice category that maybe shouldn't be there...but what about when a novice wrestler wrestles in an open tournament? We had a situation this weekend wherein a clearly novice wrestler was in my son's round robin. My son could have pinned the novice in very little time. In order to allow both to have more mat time, my son worked on some of his moves instead of pinning the other wrestler immediately. The other coach got mad and stopped the match before time had expired or a Technical Pin resulted.
What's everyones thought here? We had expected the novice wrestler and his coach would be appreciative that we didn't pin him immediately..but maybe that's what we should have done.
Being a 2nd year dad, i know all too well the difference between novice kids and Open kids. I also have 2 very different kids as wrestlers. Last year my youngest took off with the sport and we entered him in as many tournaments as possible, both Novice and Open. We finally had to stop entering him in novice tournaments because it was clearly a case of just working moves on the "easy" kids. My oldest is still in Novice this year again and is finally starting to like the sport, due to the fact that he has already won more matches in his first tournament this year than all of last year. (1 match won all of last year).
I believe that it is up to the Coach to use discretion when a wrestler needs to "graduate" from novice to open. However, some clubs don't always stick to that "Rule of thumb". I have already noticed some of our clubs "novice" wrestlers that probably need to be bumped up not only because they dominate in the novice tournaments, but because they need more tougher competition in order to make them better wrestlers.
I believe that when Derby held the Novice championships last year it was a good policy to have ONLY first year novice wrestlers attend. This made for some good quality wrestling and put everyone on a level playing field.
I would like to point out something that has bothered me as of late regarding novice tournaments.
In novice we are trying to encourage the kids and the parents to stay with the sport and every bit of encouraging is helpful. In this it dissappoints me when I see several novice brackets being 8 man and sometimes even 16 man double elimination brackets. These kids should be divided up into 4 man round robins as much as possible to 1. get more mat time. and 2. bring home something for their effort win or lose. I know this can be somewhat expensive for the tournament director, but are we not in this for the kids anyhow?
I too agree with the notion that a "novice" should truly be a "novice".
I suspect we've all seen and heard it. Every single tournament this season thus far, I have personally seen it and heard from several parents statements like "There's no way that (whomever) kid is a novice", or "I just saw that (whomever) kid at an open tournament last weekend (or even yesterday, or last week, etc.)"
In my humble opinion, this action from parents (the biggest villan in this scenario), and a close second, various club coaches, and a neck-in-neck tie for second would be tournament directors.
Maybe I am clueless here (no comments from the peanut gallery please!), but IMHO, a more thorough and critical look at USA cards might help out in this novice/open debate.
I totally understand the thought behind some more experienced, but not yet that successful in open tourneys wrestling in novice tournaments, because either the parent or coaches or both just want to get the kid more mat time and experience, etc. Totally understand that, but it also taints the whole concept of the novice status and thought behind a novice only tournament. Again, IMHO.
PROUD MOM: Your case is unfortunate. An open tournament is OPEN to the world. An opponent and coach should know that any outcome is expected.
Seems to me your opponents coach was novice also.
I would suggest in the future get the match over in the 1st period and move forward. This will save humility issues with other coaches & parents.
PROUD MOM: The example you gave with your son, was it at the Johnson County Tournament?
As with anything there are always at least 2 sides to every story....I will try to present the perspective from the other side.
We had a coach stop a match this weekend in the exact same position that PROUD MOM was in only our kid was the Novice wrestler. Given that I would like to offer our perception and our point of view....
1. If your intent is to give both kids "more mat time" I applaud you for your noble effort. However, I recommend that in the future you talk to the other coach so that both coaches understand what it taking place.
2. In our situation, the idea of more mat time doesn't hold water. We teach our kids to go out and compete as hard as they can. We understand that in some cases that may not be for too long given their level of experience. There is a difference between getting "mat time" that means something and being a "clinic" partner for someone who wants to demonstrate moves.
In our case that is how we perceived it. Our kid was getting nothing but embarrasment and very negative mat time. Our biggest concern is that the kids try and take away something positive from every match, that cannot happen if they are humiliated. For the most part, kids in this situation are first year wrestlers and a little older (9-14 years). They understand they are behind the power curve and so we try and define success for them in other terms other than wins and losses.
My hope is that our kid continues to wrestle and is not so humiliated that he quits (hence the comment about talking to us before hand). If that would have occurred then we could have worked together to help each other achieve the goals we have set for our kids.
My intent here is not to throw stones....it is to clarify perceptions and identify I method to work together if we ever end up in the same situation.
Proud Mom: If it was our boy that your son was up against please wish him luck the rest of the season. My goal is to be able to get our kids to a better level so we can be good competition for the opponents that are at the level of your son.
PROUD MOM: The example you gave with your son, was it at the Johnson County Tournament?
As with anything there are always at least 2 sides to every story....I will try to present the perspective from the other side.
We had a coach stop a match this weekend in the exact same position that PROUD MOM was in only our kid was the Novice wrestler. Given that I would like to offer our perception and our point of view....
1. If your intent is to give both kids "more mat time" I applaud you for your noble effort. However, I recommend that in the future you talk to the other coach so that both coaches understand what it taking place.
2. In our situation, the idea of more mat time doesn't hold water. We teach our kids to go out and compete as hard as they can. We understand that in some cases that may not be for too long given their level of experience. There is a difference between getting "mat time" that means something and being a "clinic" partner for someone who wants to demonstrate moves.
In our case that is how we perceived it. Our kid was getting nothing but embarrasment and very negative mat time. Our biggest concern is that the kids try and take away something positive from every match, that cannot happen if they are humiliated. For the most part, kids in this situation are first year wrestlers and a little older (9-14 years). They understand they are behind the power curve and so we try and define success for them in other terms other than wins and losses.
My hope is that our kid continues to wrestle and is not so humiliated that he quits (hence the comment about talking to us before hand). If that would have occurred then we could have worked together to help each other achieve the goals we have set for our kids.
My intent here is not to throw stones....it is to clarify perceptions and identify I method to work together if we ever end up in the same situation.
Proud Mom: If it was our boy that your son was up against please wish him luck the rest of the season. My goal is to be able to get our kids to a better level so we can be good competition for the opponents that are at the level of your son.
I think there is a copy of it somewhere on this website, but, I can't find it right now. A couple of years ago at the state body meeting, they handed out a novice guidline sheet.
District 1 has adopted these guidlines, however, enforcing them is a very difficult task.
If the coaches would adhere to them by the letter it would be a lot easier.
Basically the guidelines are: Must be second year or less. Cannot have placed in more than 4 open tournaments. Cannot have won any open tournaments. Cannot have won more than 4 Novice tournament. Cannot be a placer in a state qualifying tournament.
If we could just get everyone to follow those guidelines, then the enforcement wouldn't be an issue.
All the criteria above is right except placing at a qualifying tournament and placing in 4 opens. There have been many times at subs that there are 4 kids at a weight as well as districts. The guidelines said, winning an Open tournament and winning more than 4 novice tournaments.
Novice tournaments are a great idea and if everyone tries to stay as close to possible about the rules of a novice then this can be a huge building block for all of wrestling.
I would like to see a letter in front of the card number the state sends out to say how many years the kid has wrestled or a number. This would help tournament directors as kids are called in. They could immediately say hey this kid is a 4th year card holder- why is he a novice- and the coach could then explain why?
Something to think about
Here are the KS State Novice Tournament Guidelines:
*Must be a first or second year wrestler
*Can not have placed in MORE than 4 Opens
*Can not have won an Open
*Can not have won more than 4 Novice Tourneys
They are listed as guidelines and not rules. There are exceptions. As coaches, we have the responsibility to make the right decisions on this issue. One real example is this.... A first year wrestler last year had 4 guys at his weight at Subs. He then got a scratch on the backside at District and qualified for State. He now has moved up to a new age bracket and has not won a match this year. He has potential to become a good wrestler, but he needs the competition from the novice tournaments to accomplish this. He now will be wrestling some novice tournaments and I'm sure there will not be an issue with it. It's the right place for him.
The purpose of these tournaments is to build the beginners wrestling knowledge, experience, mat time, confidence and ease them into the competition aspect of wrestling.
Kansas has a great platform for Novice tournaments. Keeping it that way should be a high priority.
Shawnbudke: Although I wasn't going to name tournaments or try to identify the kids involved, yes, it was the JO CO tournament and I am sure we are speaking of the same match.
It was not our son's intention or the intention of his coach that match (who also happens to be his dad) to humiliate your wrestler. During the first period when your coach told our coach that the wrestler was a first year, our coach told your coach we were just trying not to pin him. We knew from his previous matches that he was not real experienced, but were not aware that he was a 1st year. A conversation a ahead of time between the coaches, probably would have helped, but it was not clear until the match started how much of a disparity there were in the two levels.
Our wrestler's coach/dad does not have vast experience in coaching - he probably should have called our wrester over between the 1st and 2nd period and told him to go ahead and end the match. Our wrestler was upset that the match was ended early and didn't want the other wrestler to feel bad - he just wanted to wrestle. We had not been in quite this situation before where there was such a difference in the two level of wrestlers - we will certainly handle it differently in the future.
Please express to your wrestler that it was not our intention to humiliate him or use him as a "clinic" partner. Our wrestler saw him as just another wrestler. Hopefully, he will continue in the sport and grow to love it and have as much success as we are currently enjoying.
Proud Mom,
Thank you for your response. No worries. Our wrestler was back at practice last night and doing fine. I appreciate the mature dialogue we have been able to have on this subject. I do mean it when I say that your intent was correct. Every situation is different and it is good when we can learn from each other.
Please wish your son the best of luck the rest of the season. Look forward to seeing you again at some tournaments. If we are at the same tournament please let me know who you are (I am the shortest Ft Leavenworth coach). I look forward to meeting you and thanks again for the good dialogue.
Shawn Budke
Shawn, I agree, everything is much better when handled in a mature manner - like the adults we are suppose to be! When we again cross paths, I will be sure to try and track you down. I am glad your wrestler was back at practice and not to upset over that match.
I am kind of new to kids wrestling and do not know the exact rules about novice wrestlers. I do know that some coaches and kids have wrestled kids with more than 2 years experience in novice tournements. I use the Olathe novice this last weekend as an example. One kid I saw there wrestled at least three years ago against one of our wrestlers. At the Olathe novice this last weekend he wrestled another. the first year this kid wrestled he was obviously a novice and to see him there last weekend he was wrestling at an open level. Should the kid be to blame I think not we should blame the coaches that sign the kids up for a novice when they know better. Call it what you want but I call it CHERRY PICKING. This is not very much fun for the novice wrestler. I have my own novice wrestler who has never won a tournament but has placed in novice and open tournaments. Is it wrong for me to continue to enter him in novice tournaments? Should I only enter him in open tournaments? And why should I only enter in open if he has never won any tournament?
These questions of Novice or open wrestler will never be decided until the state decides to step in or coaches decide to have standard rules to follow.
Standard rules aren't the answer. You can't apply a cookie cutter rule when there are clear exceptions. There are several kids that have skill levels that are on the upper end of Novice and on the extreme lower end of Open. In most cases, a 3rd year wrestler should be Novice. I also don't believe the motivation is to pick cherries. It is a result of losing repeatedly at the Open level and not being competitive. To help the kids along in their developement, wrestling in a few more Novice tournaments will provide them with the mat presence that they need.
Originally posted by Chief Renegade:
Standard rules aren't the answer. You can't apply a cookie cutter rule when there are clear exceptions. There are several kids that have skill levels that are on the upper end of Novice and on the extreme lower end of Open. In most cases, a 3rd year wrestler should be Novice. I also don't believe the motivation is to pick cherries. It is a result of losing repeatedly at the Open level and not being competitive. To help the kids along in their developement, wrestling in a few more Novice tournaments will provide them with the mat presence that they need.
I agree. There are many things in sports (and life) where another rule/law simply won't help. A state rule still requires the host clubs and club coaches to be inforced. We see too many rules now that go unheeded, and unpunished when caught. Another rule is not the answer.
Why can't the rule be: If you are a 3rd year wrestler, you are OPEN! No room for error. I am not sure if the cards show origination dates or not. The dates would have to be sent in with with the registration sheets for each tourney.
I think some of the "standard" guidelines are good rules to follow. One in particular that reads something like "If wrestler has EVER placed in an Open tournament" Then they may not enter a novice tournament. Im really not concerned if every since then they are getting beat out every weekend, if they placed at an open they are no longer a novice. Often times when I am at novice tournaments I see 1st year kids who totally walk through the tourny because they are so much better.
Originally posted by Nigel Isom:
I think some of the "standard" guidelines are good rules to follow. One in particular that reads something like "If wrestler has EVER placed in an Open tournament" Then they may not enter a novice tournament. Im really not concerned if every since then they are getting beat out every weekend, if they placed at an open they are no longer a novice. Often times when I am at novice tournaments I see 1st year kids who totally walk through the tourny because they are so much better.
Even then, "ever placing" in an Open is broadbrushing an issue that has exceptions. Plenty of kids back into placing at Opens with scratches, injuries etc. Also, getting beat out every weekend and not scoring a point at the Opens are two different things.
Yes and making exceptions for every situation is not going to help the situation at hand. Because if one person gets an exception then someone else will find a loophole, and then we are right back at kids who are not quite good enough to consistantly place at opens or never score a point, being in Novice tournaments and walking all over the competition there.
I agree with that Chief.
All to often there are only one or two athletes to a class at open tourneys. So athletes are bound to place and not have had to wrestle very many matches. You could lose your novice status the very first tourney you went to in that scenario. I thought, I read where you had to place in an open tourney with 5 or more in the bracket.
This is especially true for the heavy weights, where finding athletes of comparable weights to wrestle is difficult. I find having to wrestle up an age group just to get matches in, is quite unfair to the kids. It essentially shuts out those kids from wrestling other kids of comparable age & experience.
Jr. Hawk Dad,
I don't know how it is with your club, but most clubs the parents sign the kids up for tournaments not the coaches.
Quote:Should the kid be to blame I think not we should blame the coaches that sign the kids up for a novice when they know better. Call it what you want but I call it CHERRY PICKING
Some of it parents are not aware of all the "guide lines" that are followed by a rule of thumb, and I'm sure some of it lies on the fact parents want the bragging rights of their child placing high in a tournament.
What normanly happens to the kids that can compete in the opens that wrestle novice is when it comes time for subs and dist., they lose out because they've spent most of their time wrestling novice wrestlers.
As for our sign ups it is up to the parent to sign up the wrestler but it is up to the coach to rate the wrestler before he sends in the sheet. When the coach looks at the sign up sheet they know if thier wrestler is a novice or not. So the resposibility still stays with the coach. Parents may not know the difference but the caoch sure does. And if the parent has been around for 2 years they should know thier kid is not a novice. I did not want stirr up anything I just wanted to know if someone thought my 6& under 2nd year wrestler should be considered a novice or open wrestler.
Well until last year I thought that anyone who was a first or second year wrestler qualified as novice. But I learned last year that if you've placed in so many opens that first year or not you weren't considered novice anymore. But as it's been stated before on this topic,some wrestlers walk into placing by being in 4 man or less round robins. So what do you do?
My wrestler just turned 6 last week and has done well at novice and open tournaments, but has yet to win either one. The only reason I entered him in open was I did not want to spend the whole weekend in a hot gym. We see the same kids at open and novice tournaments. I do know that I will not enter him in a novice next year or after he wins a novice or open, but until then I think he deserves the mat time at both.
I think that is a great idea. You get the best of both worlds, so to speak. That's what I did with my son.
I agree with the idea of allowing a coach decide whats novice.
I have a 12 year old who wrestled 2 years ago for the first time. He had 3 tournaments that year.
Now he's trying it again and loving it.
The bad part. He has no competion. He's 12 and under and at 5'6" he weighs 195 lbs. (thanks to the sport, he's lost 16 pounds)
He uses brawn instead of skill to win so I'm putting him in an open at Mill Valley this weekend hoping to get him some experiance. But it looks like by the sign ups, he's going to win another medal without going against a skilled wrestler. Being he's not really learning anything. Will i have to put him into open's all next year if he wins two opens this year?
Argh! What to do....
Hey ProudMom, i know your boy....maybe he'd like to come kick around "Ratboy" one night at the house. I know he could learn from him. Or send the hubby over. HELP!
Topfuel_Racer if you want more matches and not just another medal. It looks like there is few kids at 14 and under. I don't know the rules on moving up an age group but I know some have done that in the past.
Originally posted by Topfuel_Racer:
Hey ProudMom, i know your boy....maybe he'd like to come kick around "Ratboy" one night at the house. I know he could learn from him. Or send the hubby over. HELP!
Hey Topfuel! Jake would probably love to come over and wrestle around with "Ratboy" - his practice partner last year was a very good wrestler that was 60lbs heavier than him, so Ratboy wouldn't be too far off...now, getting the hubby there is a different story - actually getting him somewhere other than work and Jake's practices/matches is sometimes a trick!
Thanks Forvac! Thats an avenue i didn't think about.
I agree (I think) with Forvac.
One avenue (and this might be essentially the same thing as Forvac and perhaps others have already mentioned) would be if a wrestler that is clearly not a novice, but is under the two-year limit, etc... sign him up for a weight-class that is either one or two steps higher than he is.
One of the critical situations (IMHO) is that we all want our kids to have the love for this great sport that we all do, and if the kids are getting drilled consistently by kids that are not really novice that are enrolled and wrestle in novice tourney's, they might get a bit dis-heartened by the failure. Nobody wants this.
At the same time, I personally know that there are many parents that simply do not actually know the "guidelines" for novice status/tournaments. Also, I am not sure to what extent all the coaches for all the clubs convey this information either. There are though, unfortunately, parents that just don't care and want their kid(s) to get the mat time and all other kids be-damned.
This is an excellent topic on this great forum btw. Hopefully it will be a catalyst for some more explicit rules in this area.
I am currently in my 12th year as a coach in USAW and this has been a problem since the first time I attended a novice tourney. The 2 year rule seems to make sense, however I have coached 1st and 2nd year kids that have become state placers. I also had the pleasure of coaching a young man who in 7 years of wrestling won a grand total of 3 matches, now explain the 2 year rule and how it makes sense for that young man. A few years ago we ran into situations in back to back years at the same novice tourney, in which very skilled wrestlers demolished and even injured a couple of "green kids". This resulted in at least two young men not wanting to continue wrestling. At the time I proposed only allowing certain takedowns, pinning combinations, and "moves" off of the bottom. The officials would treat all others as penalty points, and follow the 1-1-2-out criteria.
I have a 12 year old wrestler that is in the top of novice and bottom of open. This is his first year on the mat. We went to open tournaments and he wrestled well but lost most of his matches by getting pinned. Then last weekend we went to a novice tournament and he just made it look like it was a cake walk. Of course, as a coach I am getting yelled at for bringing him to a novice tournament, even though he fit the guide lines set by the state. This week we are taking him to another novice tournament but moving him up two weight brackets so that maybe the weight will give him some competition but at the same time not get him destroyed. I know no matter what I do it is considered wrong by some coaches and ok by others. I just would like him to stay out and not get discouraged. As a small high school we need all of the wrestlers that we can get.
By putting a kid in Novice after the second year sends a fuzzy message to the kid. He thinks his coach doesn't have confidence in him. He will never learn to face adversity by dodging it. Folks, wrestling is a TOUGH sport. Not everyone can do it. I don't buy into the argument of letting them stay in Novice just to win. They need to have just as much fun losing as they do winning. If not, the athletes coach or parent is teaching the wrong message. I saw my own kids football team lose almost every game. They didn't care. THEY STILL HAD FUN. That is what is all about. Don't install a false sense of security by dodging competition. I personally have been dominated in my youth and college days. Being dominated made me better. Unfortunately, not every kid is made for wrestling.
Itrain's ideas on limiting allowed moves at novice tourneys is interesting. If wrestlers were limited to leg takedowns only and could only use halfs, cradles or other basic pinning moves with no guillatines, headlocks, scissors or other upper level and/or painful moves, then perhaps more advanced wrestlers would not be in attendance and if they are in attendance then the damage they do to less experienced psychees (sp?) may be less. Also I don't like the practice of cutting(taking down and releasing repeatedly)at these novice tournaments.
i agree w/ itrain
in my fourth year of coaching i to have seen two sides of the coin. ive had a 2nd yr. kid qualify for state and place. but also have coached a child for four yrs who has maybe scored 10 points in this span. he has never won a match in novice or open. to me it is clearly going to have to be a coaches decision and i believe there are few coaches that would cheat the kids.but there will always be a few. by the way wrestling is a tough sport but it is for anybody that is willing to show up and do it (good or bad)
Originally posted by Topfuel_Racer:
I agree with the idea of allowing a coach decide whats novice.
I have a 12 year old who wrestled 2 years ago for the first time. He had 3 tournaments that year.
Now he's trying it again and loving it.
The bad part. He has no competion. He's 12 and under and at 5'6" he weighs 195 lbs. (thanks to the sport, he's lost 16 pounds)
He uses brawn instead of skill to win so I'm putting him in an open at Mill Valley this weekend hoping to get him some experiance. But it looks like by the sign ups, he's going to win another medal without going against a skilled wrestler. Being he's not really learning anything. Will i have to put him into open's all next year if he wins two opens this year?
Argh! What to do....
Hey ProudMom, i know your boy....maybe he'd like to come kick around "Ratboy" one night at the house. I know he could learn from him. Or send the hubby over. HELP!
We have had the same problem with a 10 and Under Novice kid this year. Each Tourney he has signed up for except for 2 he has had to been turned away since there were no kids for him to wrestle. He is a big kid at about the same height and also weighing 195. The last 2 tourney's that he was able to wrestle in he had to go up in age groups just to have someone to wrestle. This weekend, not only does he have to go up in Age group, but he also has to wrestle in the Open tournament at Derby instead of the Novice (btw he is a first year kid)
ever been to a t ball game, rowdy huh. novice tournaments same way . what is wrestling its no more than hand to hand combat . only 1 can win their lies the problem. Ithink that the crowd at these functions are in general less informed compared to any other kind of tournament. which leads to my thought every parent should attend a High school meet. that way they see what it is all about. make sure u take your student and ask him to watch(just watch). then talk about and you should be more informed about wrestling than most attendees in a novice tournament.