Kansas Wrestling
Posted By: 5465 Freshman in kids state or out? - 02/13/06 03:55 AM
Lets just take a poll and settle the argument. Should Freshman be allowed to wrestle 8th graders in Kansas Kids state tournement?
Posted By: usawks1 Re: Freshman in kids state or out? - 02/13/06 02:35 PM
"settle the argument?" ... I doubt that any poll or for that matter a vote ... will settle disputes. :-)
Posted By: Chief Renegade Re: Freshman in kids state or out? - 02/13/06 02:49 PM
10th graders are also wrestling 7th graders. Just to be clear on the poll.
Posted By: Mark Stanley Re: Freshman in kids state or out? - 02/13/06 02:59 PM
I can't think of a scenario when a sophomore would be in the 14 year old division... please enlighten me.

I am not sure which side of the fence I come down on with this issue. Right now I am squarely on the fence. I think it is a good debate, but I haven’t been convinced in the need to change what is working well.
Posted By: Husker Fan Re: Freshman in kids state or out? - 02/13/06 03:02 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by usawks1:
"settle the argument?" ... I doubt that any poll or for that matter a vote ... will settle disputes. :-)
You are right Randy a poll or even a vote on the issue at the State Body meeting will not settle the dispute.

The one thing it does disprove though is Nigel's post which stated that Will Cokeley and myself are the ONLY two to support this idea.

By the way neither Will or I are wanting high schoolers not to wrestle in a post season USAW-KS sponspored folkstyle event. We both want them to. We just are suggesting that the high schoolers should be wrestling against each other and not against grade schoolers.
Posted By: JJD Re: Freshman in kids state or out? - 02/13/06 05:03 PM
As long as they follow in the age requirements what the problem. Some one always is going be in the bottom and some one at the top. What next? Should junior high wrestle elementry. This happens to.
Posted By: headtomat Re: Freshman in kids state or out? - 02/13/06 07:22 PM
My brother was an 8th grader last year @ 130lbs and he placed 3rd @ state in 14 and under the kid he lost to placed 1st who was also an 8th grader both will be in the 14 and under division again this year. The kid who placed 2nd was a highschool state champion. I think an 8th grader can hold his own if he is prepared and is good enough.
Posted By: Nigel Isom Re: Freshman in kids state or out? - 02/13/06 08:44 PM
Alright then Vince,

Let me rephrase my original comment.

You and Will are the only two that I ever noticed posting about this subject year after year. Perhaps you could go back and dig them up for me. But I do not recall ever seeing this subject being brought up by anyone else but you two which is what led me to the original comment. It just surprises me that year after year this gets brought up when we all know what the conclusion will be.

It kinda hits a sore spot for me because everyone who has grown up through Kansas Wrestling has goen through this same system and most of us never had a problem with it. In fact many Kansas wrestlers have never been out of the state to wrestle, so why would they care what other states do with their cutoff dates? I recognize your opinions about this subject, but I very much disagree with them.
Posted By: Husker Fan Re: Freshman in kids state or out? - 02/13/06 09:03 PM
Actually Nigel I did do a search yesterday to try to get an idea of others besides myself and Will who saw this the same way. I did find in the search a topic from I believe 2002 maybe it was 2003. It was not introduced by either Will or myself. It was kind of amusing to read over it. You and I sound like broken records. I will bump it up for you so you can see that Will and I were not the ones to bring it up that year and I bet that would be the case in some subsequent years too. You probably have the perception that we do because we both post a lot about it when it comes up just like you do.

Typically though I think this subject is brought up by parents of 8th graders. I know it is discussed by parents outside of the forum too, especially by parents of 8th graders. I am pretty sure that it has been brought up this year on another topic by someone other than Will although he did bring it up again in that Freshman topic yesterday.

One thing for sure since my son is a 9th grader this year, this is the last year you will have to concern yourself with me on this particular issue. Now I will go see if I can find that topic and bump it up to confirm to you that I or Will did not introduce that year at least.
Posted By: KansasWrestling Re: Freshman in kids state or out? - 02/15/06 03:19 AM
Why is everyone so concerned about our eigth graders wrestling against Freshmen? That is just the normal 2 year age group. What about our young Freshmen going up against 18 year old Seniors? It seems to me there is a much greater difference in strength and experience there.
Posted By: wrestlerstud09 Re: Freshman in kids state or out? - 02/15/06 04:22 AM
i dont see a problem i think it will get the eight graders prepared for high school and like the last guy said freshman wrestle seniors in high school and im a freshman and i have beat most of my opponents and they are seniors
Posted By: Scooby Re: Freshman in kids state or out? - 02/15/06 12:25 PM
Kansas kids wrestling is done by age and weight. It is fair and people have to understand that there will be bumps in the road as they are growing up. The age bracket is 14 and under not Jr High. Just because a kid is getting better competition is no reason to say he can't wrestle. If 8th grade kids thinkwrestling 14 and under is tough they are in for a long year next year during school. one year age compared to 4 years age difference is a small matter.

To be the best you have to wrestle the best
Posted By: slap2414 Re: Freshman in kids state or out? - 02/15/06 11:35 PM
Nice point Kansas my son took his lumps last year at the bottom of 14 & U and this year he has had to wrestle seniors almost every time at the 4A 140lbs bracket and I think he is giving up more than an 8th grader does.
Posted By: chucknoller Re: Freshman in kids state or out? - 02/16/06 12:42 AM
exactly slap 2414..theres a WAY bigger difference from a senoir to freshman then a freshman to 8th grader.. I think my bench went up 20 lbs from that year..I'd hate to see how much it goes up in my next 4 years
Posted By: REVOLUTION Re: Freshman in kids state or out? - 02/16/06 01:22 AM
Why are people so concerned about this? Nobody has ever been concerned about it before. Grow up!
Posted By: REVOLUTION Re: Freshman in kids state or out? - 02/16/06 01:22 AM
Why are people so concerned about this? Nobody has ever been concerned about it before. Grow up!
Posted By: Renegade Kid Re: Freshman in kids state or out? - 02/16/06 04:41 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by REVOLUTION:
Why are people so concerned about this? Nobody has ever been concerned about it before. Grow up!
Nobody? It's a nationwide majority that believes High School and Kids division are not the same.
Posted By: rdskn26 Re: Freshman in kids state or out? - 02/16/06 09:28 AM
i to agree that they are not the same. but the bottom line is wrestling is wrestling,you have tough matches and you have the easy matches and the age has nothing to do with it, although in a very few matches the maturity of one to the other does.So not to be harsh but if a kid cant handle his age group of competition he should look into basketball
Posted By: Husker Fan Re: Freshman in kids state or out? - 02/16/06 11:34 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by REVOLUTION:
Why are people so concerned about this? Nobody has ever been concerned about it before. Grow up!
That is not exactly true what you stated about nobody has ever been concerned about this before. I believe it has been debated by myself and others about every year over the last four years at least. I recently bumped up a topic from 2003 to show someone that myself and another person were not always the ones to bring the topic up. I admit I have probably posted in favor of change about every year. I have a 9th grade son and I still support a format in which the 9th graders would not be wrestling 8th graders.

It is very evident though that the majority on this forum and the voting members on the State Body do not share this view. It is not likely to change in the near future. So at this point, I say to the supporters of our current format, congratulations you have won this fight and from what I can see by a big margin.
Posted By: REVOLUTION Re: Freshman in kids state or out? - 02/16/06 04:21 PM
Why do we have 12 year olds wrestling 11 year olds? Or 10 year olds wrestling 9...
It's the way it is. Take a year off if you don't like to wrestle up.
Posted By: Chief Renegade Re: Freshman in kids state or out? - 02/16/06 04:51 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by REVOLUTION:
Why do we have 12 year olds wrestling 11 year olds? Or 10 year olds wrestling 9...
It's the way it is. Take a year off if you don't like to wrestle up.
Revolution,

Study the issue a little further and you'll learn the difference between your example and reality. It's not "the way it is" in several states, so the opposition to this rule is not without merit.

Eric Johnson
Renegades Wrestling Club
Posted By: Husker Fan Re: Freshman in kids state or out? - 02/16/06 07:32 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by REVOLUTION:
Why do we have 12 year olds wrestling 11 year olds? Or 10 year olds wrestling 9...
It's the way it is. Take a year off if you don't like to wrestle up.
The difference is that the younger kids practice with their Kids' clubs only two to three times a week. A ninth grader is practing 5 days a week. They are also wrestling and practicing against junior and seniors. Most people think this sharpens their skills. At the same time the 8th grader often does not even have a practice partner of his age to work on his or her skills.
Posted By: sportsfan02 Re: Freshman in kids state or out? - 02/16/06 07:45 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by Chief Renegade:
Quote:
Originally posted by REVOLUTION:
Why do we have 12 year olds wrestling 11 year olds? Or 10 year olds wrestling 9...
It's the way it is. Take a year off if you don't like to wrestle up.
Revolution,

Study the issue a little further and you'll learn the difference between your example and reality. It's not "the way it is" in several states, so the opposition to this rule is not without merit.

Eric Johnson
Renegades Wrestling Club
Regardless of the issue, why is it whenever our state does something different from another state or states, that some people automatically assume we are doing it wrong? Maybe just maybe, we are doing it right and all the others are wrong. Frankly, I never sell the overall intellect of Kansans short!
Posted By: REVOLUTION Re: Freshman in kids state or out? - 02/16/06 08:24 PM
You all knew the rules going in to the season.
If you don't like it either quit wrestling, or change the rule.
In "reality" that is all you can do.
There is no rule that says you can only practice 3 days a week and nothing says you have to practice with your club only.
If your concerned about quality practice time go find it, or create it.
It's always been a "reality" to me that "you only take out of an endevor what you put into that endevor".
To Renegade Kid: I was refering to people in Kansas, that is where we are wrestling.
Posted By: mom4 Re: Freshman in kids state or out? - 02/16/06 09:04 PM
There are always going to be kids who have an advantage or disadvantage no matter what the age or class. For example, "Johnny" who lives close to Wichita and is in a very active freestyle, greco ect club with several high quality coaches and access (money) to attend National wrestling tournaments is going to have more advantage sover "Joey" who lives in a small town with a disorganized club and no access to highly competitive tournaments. Life is not fair. It is what we do with it that decides who we are.

There are many benefits of having 14U versus Junior High and High School separation. Yes, other states do it differently but are they right and we are wrong? Do they have a higher percentage of kids being "red-shirted"? Are they like some states that do no believe in starting Kindergarten unless they are 5 before December? In Kansas, the reason we have so many Freshman wrestling in 14U is because their birthdays are in the summer. If we had the same start date for Kindergarten as California, Connecticut, Hawaii, Maryland, Michigan or Montana (all of these states require that you turn 5 before December to enroll instead of Sept.), there would only be a very small group of 14 year old Freshman. Maybe this is why Kansas has its policy and those states have theirs.
Posted By: Chief Renegade Re: Freshman in kids state or out? - 02/16/06 09:55 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by REVOLUTION:
To Renegade Kid: I was refering to people in Kansas, that is where we are wrestling. [/QB]
As evidenced by previous posts, several people in Kansas have brought it up before.
Posted By: Husker Fan Re: Freshman in kids state or out? - 02/16/06 10:20 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by REVOLUTION:
You all knew the rules going in to the season.
If you don't like it either quit wrestling, or change the rule.
In "reality" that is all you can do.
There is no rule that says you can only practice 3 days a week and nothing says you have to practice with your club only.
If your concerned about quality practice time go find it, or create it.
It's always been a "reality" to me that "you only take out of an endevor what you put into that endevor"....
How does an 8th grader create a 5 day a week practice schedule against juniors and seniors in high school? How can an 8th grader enter tournaments and wrestle against high school juniors and seniors from December thru February?

I think most Kansas wrestling people understand and believe that the majority of Kansas 8th graders are not going to experience the quality of practice and competition during the year that the majority of the Kansas 9th graders will experience. The supporters even though they realize it do not think it is enough of an issue to change the Kansas Kids State tournament system.
Posted By: mom4 Re: Freshman in kids state or out? - 02/16/06 10:21 PM
We could also just do it like in Nebraska. In Nebraska, you are classified by class and not by age. 1st and 2nd grade wrestle together, 3rd and 4th, 5th and 6th, 7th and 8th ect. Of course, you have parents complaining about a kid in 8th grade who is 15 years old and already growing a beard going against a kid who just turned 12 in September......
Posted By: REVOLUTION Re: Freshman in kids state or out? - 02/16/06 11:29 PM
My point is if you don't like it-change it or move to a State you think you can compete in-or quit altogether. If you want quality practice time find it. It may take some effort but it can be done. May have to make some calls, or travel. It probably won't come in your comfort zone. For people in the KC Metro-plex it should be easier than for most of us West of US 81.

You that disagree with H.S. kids in KIDS competition should read the first post about the new bill to be debated allowing H.S. kids in the clubs. I personaly, don't like the idea as most H.S wrestlers are not good role modles for younger kids. ie. work ethic, and know it all attitude. As always there are exeptions to the rule.
Posted By: Dking Re: Freshman in kids state or out? - 02/21/06 04:13 AM
I can't for the life of me understand this debate...
What is the difference between?
A. a freshman 14-year-old, who started wrestling in the eighth grade,
B. a 13-year-old "kid's club" wrestler who is in the eighth grade but started wrestling when he was five and attends a half dozen wrestling camps a year,
C. a kid who has a parent that was an elite wrestler and thus gets trained year round, and
D. a run of the mill "kid's club" wrestler who just happens to be genetically gifted?

I don’t know! They sound like a good mix of talented young wrestlers to me.
Bottom line, we have a sport that is based on a couple fixed metrics that can’t be changed the day of the match, namely weight and age.

Kansas is a great wrestling state because all of those kids mentioned above get a fair shot at being a champion because they are provided an opportunity to compete in a fair environment.
IF this change is made, where will we draw the lines next?
Second, what is the underlying goal of this debate? Hard to figure this one out. I thought the goal of the state championships was to determine the best wrestlers by age and weight. Any division of this population waters down the competition, and unfortunately for the eventual champion, brings into question the results of the contest. Who would want to be the 14 and under state champion, but have to be reminded that he didn't really compete against all of the competition? Like the tee-shirt says, how do we determine who the best wrestler is—“we wrestle!”

I say, leave this great system alone… and let the wrestlers figure it out.
Posted By: Nigel Isom Re: Freshman in kids state or out? - 02/21/06 05:35 AM
Dking, probably the best post I have seen thus far on the subject. Fortunatly for you and I most of the rest of that agrees with us.
Posted By: my3sonswrestle Re: Freshman in kids state or out? - 02/21/06 12:19 PM
I'm with those that say let it be. If we change the 14U, where will it stop? What about my very young 12U wrestler(misses 10U by a matter of weeks) that has to wrestle 7th graders who have had Jr. High wrestling. He knows like his older brothers, that his turn will come and as for this year he will go out there, have fun and do his best, in the sport that he loves above all other sports.
Posted By: Chief Renegade Re: Freshman in kids state or out? - 02/21/06 01:18 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by my3sonswrestle:
I'm with those that say let it be. If we change the 14U, where will it stop? What about my very young 12U wrestler(misses 10U by a matter of weeks) that has to wrestle 7th graders who have had Jr. High wrestling. He knows like his older brothers, that his turn will come and as for this year he will go out there, have fun and do his best, in the sport that he loves above all other sports.
There are twenty percent of the kids who's "turn" will never come. By that I mean, being a 9th or 10th grader and wrestling 14U. Your example of a 7th grader having the benefit of wrestling Junior High is actually a detriment, not a benefit. Sure, there are kids like Detmer and others that excel against High School wrestlers, but everyone that says "His turn will come" is missing the point. Many states understand this and have provided High School wrestlers with one State tournament instead of two.

Eric Johnson
Posted By: sportsfan02 Re: Freshman in kids state or out? - 02/21/06 01:38 PM
Originally posted by Chief Renegade:
Your example of a 7th grader having the benefit of wrestling Junior High is actually a detriment, not a benefit.
Eric Johnson

Just because your Junior High or Middle School program doesn't live up to your expectations don't deride all the ones that do. Many of us have programs in leagues that are successful. Much of that may be due in part to parents/fans who didn't set around and whine about how bad the program was but instead worked to fix it.
Posted By: Chief Renegade Re: Freshman in kids state or out? - 02/21/06 07:16 PM
sportsfan,

It is not a personal dig about which JH or MS programs live up to anyones expectations. It's purely math. Not as many matches with less competition. Nobody was derided. Just stating the facts.

Eric Johnson
Posted By: sportsfan02 Re: Freshman in kids state or out? - 02/21/06 07:35 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by Chief Renegade:
sportsfan,

It is not a personal dig about which JH or MS programs live up to anyones expectations. It's purely math. Not as many matches with less competition. Nobody was derided. Just stating the facts.

Eric Johnson
I am a firm believer that wrestlers are made in the wrestling room and competition only tests what you've accomplished. If I am correct, then the JH/MS programs still are better because they practice 5 nights a week as opposed to the 3 of most clubs.
Posted By: Chief Renegade Re: Freshman in kids state or out? - 02/21/06 07:45 PM
Ask the referees who do both JH and Kids Open tournaments which is tougher competition. Wrestlers are made in the wrestling room. Just not as fast in those rooms.
Posted By: Nigel Isom Re: Freshman in kids state or out? - 02/21/06 08:10 PM
I guess next we'll be only letting wrestlers who are the same year of age and born in the same month wrestle each other, that way we know for sure there is absolutly no advantage given to one kid or another.

Which brings me to another point, there is no rules in USAWKS by-laws that prevent a club wrestler from practicing every night. They generally don't because there are few kids coaches who would open up the room 5 nights a week, and probably even fewer kids who would come in every night. So I find the example of High School/Middle schoolers being able to practice 5 days a week is a very weak arguement. If a 8th grader really wants to be able to compete with a kid who just months older than him but a grade ahead based on his birthday, then perhaps he should find a coach willing to open up the door for him to practice every night, rather than a coach who complains because their kids are disadvantaged for only getting to practice 2/3 nights a week.

The one thing I have noticed is, the kids who are talented and hard working, almost always win regardless of a few years age difference ie freshman who beat seniors.
Posted By: sportsfan02 Re: Freshman in kids state or out? - 02/21/06 08:17 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by Nigel Isom:
I guess next we'll be only letting wrestlers who are the same year of age and born in the same month wrestle each other, that way we know for sure there is absolutly no advantage given to one kid or another.
And what do we do about leap year babies? They would have to be a whole new category/classification by themselves.
Posted By: Chief Renegade Re: Freshman in kids state or out? - 02/21/06 11:19 PM
Nigel,

I thought you were going with "born on the same day". Anything to distract from the truth.

The question has never been answered by you in this debate. Why do other very successful wrestling states overwhelmingly disagree with you?

Are we missing something here in Kansas or do we just see clearer?

Eric Johnson
Posted By: Nigel Isom Re: Freshman in kids state or out? - 02/22/06 12:16 AM
Honestly Coach Johnson,

I cannot tell you why other states do what they do. But I do know that Kansas as a wrestling sate has done very well in the last 10 years and we are only getting better. I don't really think that allowing freshman to wrestle in kids has any effect as far as making us a better state in wrestling, but I do know as a wrestler myself, any extra opporutnity for competition that I got I would take, if that meant wrestling an extra year of kids after my freshman year then so be it.
Posted By: mom4 Re: Freshman in kids state or out? - 02/22/06 06:30 PM
Chief Renegade: a reason why you may see that other states do not follow the Kansas model is due in part to the starting age of a child for school. Not every state has the same cut-off date for a child to be in kindergarten. There are plenty of states where the cut-off date is before June (not September), eliminating most 14 year old Freshmen. Then, there are those states like Nebraska that does not group kids by age but rather by grade. While this may seem like an ideal situation, I am sure there are parents living in those states who are upset about the unfair advantage a kid has who is "old" for their grade. Just read some of the post on the high school side over Freshman who are 16 years old.
Posted By: mom4 Re: Freshman in kids state or out? - 02/22/06 09:41 PM
An example to my earlier post. There are two kids in the 8th grade. One kid has a birthday in July and is only 13 years old. The other kid has a birthday in October and was held back another year in grade school so he is 15 years old. They both weigh the same and so will wrestle against each other. As a parent of the 13 year old, I may complain that it is unfair that my son has to wrestle against someone two years older than him and thus is stronger due to maturity. As a parent of the 15 year old, I may say there is nothing wrong since they both have the same opportunities to compete. Which side would you choose? I will beat you money that this debate is currently raging in those "other states" just like our debate about 8th graders vs. freshman.
Posted By: Bronco Wrestler Re: Freshman in kids state or out? - 02/22/06 10:19 PM
I like this idea for new age groups...

7&u
9&u
11&u
13&u
High School-open to all ages

I support this idea of my age groups because, people say 6&U are too young at State move it back a year and have at it. You change the age groups a little bit by a year and then eliminate the combine of freshman and eighth graders and then you have all the high school together. It would only make sense, or maybe I'm just crazy...
Posted By: Chief Renegade Re: Freshman in kids state or out? - 02/22/06 11:30 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by mom4:
An example to my earlier post. There are two kids in the 8th grade. One kid has a birthday in July and is only 13 years old. The other kid has a birthday in October and was held back another year in grade school so he is 15 years old. They both weigh the same and so will wrestle against each other. As a parent of the 13 year old, I may complain that it is unfair that my son has to wrestle against someone two years older than him and thus is stronger due to maturity. As a parent of the 15 year old, I may say there is nothing wrong since they both have the same opportunities to compete. Which side would you choose? I will beat you money that this debate is currently raging in those "other states" just like our debate about 8th graders vs. freshman.
Or 7th graders vs. 10th graders who have just completed their state tournament, only to compete for a kids medal the following week.
Posted By: Chief Renegade Re: Freshman in kids state or out? - 02/22/06 11:34 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by Bronco Wrestler:
I like this idea for new age groups...

7&u
9&u
11&u
13&u
High School-open to all ages

I support this idea of my age groups because, people say 6&U are too young at State move it back a year and have at it. You change the age groups a little bit by a year and then eliminate the combine of freshman and eighth graders and then you have all the high school together. It would only make sense, or maybe I'm just crazy...
Liberty Nationals has it right. January 1st cutoff, A 14u division for 8th grade and under and a High school division. Fair for all and great competition.
Posted By: Husker Fan Re: Freshman in kids state or out? - 02/22/06 11:38 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by Bronco Wrestler:
I like this idea for new age groups...

7&u
9&u
11&u
13&u
High School-open to all ages

I support this idea of my age groups because, people say 6&U are too young at State move it back a year and have at it. You change the age groups a little bit by a year and then eliminate the combine of freshman and eighth graders and then you have all the high school together. It would only make sense, or maybe I'm just crazy...
I don't think you are crazy. I suggested this same change in Kids age groups several years ago. I agree with you and I agree it would make it a little better for those who advocated 6&U at State. It would also eliminate the combining of 8th graders vs. 9th graders at State.

I like the idea of a separate high school tournament with either two divisions (freshmen/JV and open) or three divisions (freshmen only, JV and open). If you held the high school tournament within a couple of weeks of this week's high school tournament, you would have a type of Grand State high school event and the high schoolers could then start freestyle immmediately. I doubt it would ever happen in Kansas but I like your idea.
Posted By: mom4 Re: Freshman in kids state or out? - 02/25/06 02:17 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by Chief Renegade:
[QUOTE]Or 7th graders vs. 10th graders who have just completed their state tournament, only to compete for a kids medal the following week. [/QB]
Explain how a 7th grader would be competing against a 10th grader? I know of some 7th graders who have to compete against Freshman but a 10th grader? How many Sophomore's are 14? or how many 7th graders are 15?
Posted By: Chief Renegade Re: Freshman in kids state or out? - 02/25/06 03:04 AM
Without naming any kids.... There was an 8th grader last year that was a 12U State Champion. He will be 14U in 9th and 10th.

There are no 15 yr. old 7th graders that I know of.
Posted By: Husker Fan Re: Freshman in kids state or out? - 02/25/06 12:58 PM
I know a sophomore who two years ago was in his second year of 12 & Under as an 8th grader, so this year as a sophomore he would qualify to wrestle 14 & Under. I think he was a September birthday and he started school early. Starting early is not common though, so there should not be a lot of sophomores in 14 & U. Most sophomores will be in 16 & U in Kansas.

As far as a 15 year old 7th grader, I am not sure if you really meant that. Most 7th graders in Kansas are in 12 & under since they do not turn 13 until September 1 or after. There are some 7th graders who turn 13 before September 1 and they have to wrestle in 14 & Under. These students either started school a little late or might have been held back a year for some reason. I believe you would find more in this group than in the group that started school early, so you should see more 7th graders than sophomores in 14&U.

The norm is 8th and 9th graders in 14&U, I would bet that over 90% of the wrestlers in 14 & Under are either 8th or 9th graders.
Posted By: mom4 Re: Freshman in kids state or out? - 02/25/06 11:48 PM
So just because there is one kid in the state of Kansas who is a Sophmore and could wrestle a 7th grader, that means we need to change the whole system. We had a kid in 7th grade who had to compete against freshman. He did very well and qualified to state. As an 8th grader, he was facing a whole bracket full of freshman (and some of the top ones at that). He did very well and placed 4th. As a freshman himself, he faced Seniors on a regular basis (varsity 160lbs). Having to wrestle tough competition from 7th grade on in kids fed just made him more ready for high school. Take it away and I don't know if he would have had the success he did this year (over 20 wins). Also, my son was a very young 8th grader and was able to make it to state beating 2 varsity freshman wrestlers along the way. One of them was from Clay Center and we all know they don't know how to wrestle. Again, this gave him so much confidence before his high school season began. It also built him up to face the Juniors and Seniors. I would rather see our 8th graders compete against the freshman now in kids state than to be suddenly with the big dogs once they are in high school. Think of 8th grade kids state as a step towards wrestling high school. It gives them a little bit of a feel (and in some cases reality check) of what it may be like next year.
Posted By: doug Re: Freshman in kids state or out? - 02/25/06 11:49 PM
As a parent of a 9th grader who will be wrestling in the 14&U because of when his birthday falls, if feel you all are making something out of nothing. Yes, he did practice 5 days a week for high school and has continued to practice 4 nights a week for club. I dont feel he is at an advantage over an 8th grader simply because of practicing 5 days a week. He wrestled juniors and seniors and still was not at a disadvantage. He went out and wrestled and didnt complain. Someone is always out to change the way something is, when if it has worked in the past, why change it? Let the kids wrestle. Your child will be a 9th grader one day and you all will be on the other side complaining about it then too.
whats the big deal i wrestled 140 6a and still placed as a freshman weighing about 136 all year and still placed 4th how would it be different for an 8th grader to wrestle a freshman than a freshman wrestling juniors and seniors. It doesn't mean they can't win.
Posted By: Chief Renegade Re: Freshman in kids state or out? - 02/28/06 05:37 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by doug:
As a parent of a 9th grader who will be wrestling in the 14&U because of when his birthday falls, if feel you all are making something out of nothing. Yes, he did practice 5 days a week for high school and has continued to practice 4 nights a week for club. I dont feel he is at an advantage over an 8th grader simply because of practicing 5 days a week. He wrestled juniors and seniors and still was not at a disadvantage. He went out and wrestled and didnt complain. Someone is always out to change the way something is, when if it has worked in the past, why change it? Let the kids wrestle. Your child will be a 9th grader one day and you all will be on the other side complaining about it then too.
Doug,

You, along with many others still haven't understood the issue. Your comment that ALL OF US will be on the other side and will complain about it too, shows a lack of understanding. Not one of the 7th grade 14U kids will ever wrestle 14U in High School. So maybe we can finally stop bringing up that tired example. Anyone that has wrestled realizes that the 14U division in KS is dominated by High School wrestlers who have competed at High School State #1 and again at High School State #2. That's why other top wrestling states overwhelmingly disagree with you. Their freestyle and greco teams have an entire month head start on us and we end up playing catch-up or not wrestling freestyle at all.

Eric Johnson
Posted By: Husker Fan Re: Freshman in kids state or out? - 02/28/06 11:59 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by Chief Renegade:
[QUOTE]... That's why other top wrestling states overwhelmingly disagree with you. Their freestyle and greco teams have an entire month head start on us and we end up playing catch-up or not wrestling freestyle at all.

Eric Johnson
Eric, The KWCA approached Mike Juby and the Kids Executive Board with this concern in 2002. The minutes from the USAW Kansas Kids Wrestling State Body Meeting on 11/3/2002 stated the following:

"The KWCA had approached Mike and said that they would like to see the Kids wrestling season end earlier. They would like to see it end before High School State, take a couple weeks break, and then start the summer freestyle – Greco-roman season. They honestly feel we are going too long!! A brief decision followed, but it was decided to leave as is."

There was a topic in the Kids forum that Brett Shoffner introduced on March 30, 2004 called "A few thoughts in general" where Brett and Jeremy Gibson came out in strong support of this idea. You can easily get to this topic by going to the Search on this website, type in KWCA and use the option to narrow your search to the Kids forum. You will find this topic and a few others that shows this idea has been discussed about every year for the last five years.

I believe it would be an extremely difficult thing to change in our Kansas Kids system. From my perspective the support to keep the system the same appears to be overwhelming.

Eric, I just wanted to point this out to you so you and others on this topic can see that there are other wrestling people who agree with you that maybe there is a better way to help our Kansas wrestlers develop their wrestling skills.
You are not the only one to suggest that we need to get our high schoolers involved in freestyle earlier and that having them wrestle folkstyle too long increases their burnout rate and ends up discouraging them from participating in freestyle.
The same burnout issue could also keep the younger Kids wrestlers from participating in freestyle too.
Posted By: lincolnwrestler Re: Freshman in kids state or out? - 03/01/06 06:08 PM
i cant belive that you are complaining just wait till they get into high school they will be wrestling seniors so quit fussin
Posted By: Chief Renegade Re: Freshman in kids state or out? - 03/01/06 07:17 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by lincolnwrestler:
i cant belive that you are complaining just wait till they get into high school they will be wrestling seniors so quit fussin [/QUOTE

Why wait, it's happening on the 11th. 7th graders against 10th graders. Lincoln, you have to read about the issues before you can believe.
Posted By: mom4 Re: Freshman in kids state or out? - 03/02/06 12:32 AM
Chief Renegade, on the whole I really like you but I am tired that you keep bringing up 7th graders against 10th graders. That may only apply to maybe one kid in one bracket. It is not in the majority. The majority of kids will be 8th grade and freshman wrestling against each other. There may even be a few 7th graders in the mix. However, a 10th grade 14 year old is not a common thing.
Posted By: Chief Renegade Re: Freshman in kids state or out? - 03/02/06 12:41 AM
Thanks mom4 for the nice comment. I just want to make sure everyone understands the parameters. The majority are 8th graders, but there are more than a few 7th graders. I would say almost 1 in 5 are 7th grade. Most of that is shown by the close to 20% votes that are in favor of having a seperate kids and High School state.
Posted By: Nigel Isom Re: Freshman in kids state or out? - 03/02/06 01:00 AM
20% isn't even in the realm of being close to changing a by law here at usawks. Not withstanding the fact that not everyone who represents USAWKS is voting.
Posted By: mom4 Re: Freshman in kids state or out? - 03/02/06 02:31 AM
I guess this is just one of those issues where we will never agree. My oldest son is actually younger than most 8th graders (and even some 7th graders) and this is just one of those rare times where he can actually compete against kids his own age. I guess I am a little partial to keeping things the way they are.
HOWEVER, I would love to see the kids federation season shortened so that Kids state falls before high school state. I love wrestling but after all, this working mom needs a Saturday where I can actually sleep in (and clean this poor neglected house).
Posted By: Z'sDAD Re: Freshman in kids state or out? - 03/02/06 02:48 PM
You can wrestle 14 and under as a Sophomore. We started our son in school when he was 4. His birthday is in September. He actually could have wrestled 16 and under as a Senior but decided he had wrestled enough and placing at high school state was proof to himself he was a good wrestler. So it can happen.
Posted By: dust in the wind Re: Freshman in kids state or out? - 03/06/06 10:20 PM
this is bogus.. thats like saying should 7th graders shouldn't be aloud to wrestle 12U
Posted By: Chief Renegade Re: Freshman in kids state or out? - 03/06/06 11:11 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by dust in the wind:
this is bogus.. thats like saying should 7th graders shouldn't be aloud to wrestle 12U
Dust,

Once again, you posted before you knew what the issues are. It's High School wrestlers vs. Kids division wrestlers. It's not at all the same as 12U.

Eric Johnson
Renegades
Posted By: treinen Re: Freshman in kids state or out? - 03/07/06 12:10 AM
MR. Cheif Renegade. I have one thing to say to you. You have some 8th graders that are at the top of 14 and under.You talked of making a 13 and under age group earlier in the forum but you don't realize that their is still going to be 7th and 8th grade wrestlers in the HIGH SCHOOL brackets for kids. I would think you should agree with letting ninth grade wrestlers wrestling 8th and 7th. They may get beat but who knows. My coach told me, "to be the best, you've got to wrestle the best." and that's true. those 9th graders can think they're big and bad but when those 7th and 8th graders are in high school, they could have improved over those one or two years and just come back and kick some tail.
Posted By: treinen Re: Freshman in kids state or out? - 03/07/06 01:40 AM
I'm sorry but this comment is addressed to Mom4 and Bronco Wrestler not coach johnson
Posted By: dust in the wind Re: Freshman in kids state or out? - 03/07/06 02:41 AM
Renegade, could you please fill me in when i posted without knowing the issues..
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