Kansas Wrestling
Posted By: Mike Furches Kansas Vs. Oklahoma State - 03/31/03 01:47 PM
This is one of those posts I know I have to be careful about because I have a lot of friends in Oklahoma. There were several asking me about the difference between Oklahoma State Championships Verses Kansas State Championships. I hope the following comments help both states make for a better event for their wrestlers.

Oklahoma has the advantage in a couple of areas:
• The addition of a 6 and under or D1 division is needed at Kansas State. These kids wrestle all year and it would be great to give them the privilege of wrestling in the big show.
• I also like the option to challenge for 2nd. This allows one more match and the chance to see who legitimately deserves 2nd place. There needs to be head to head on a tournament of this level to determine legitimacy of 2nd place.
• I also like Oklahoma's format of 6 wrestlers from each district/region making it to the tournament, thus allowing a 24 man bracket.
• The hospitality room in Oklahoma is much better.
• Awards; in Oklahoma you receive a medal, trophy and the winner receives a sweat shirt with state champion on the back. I will say this though, the awards in Kansas were very nice and if it were all about trophies I would go out and buy my son one. The true award is knowing that you are a champion and have wrestled well.

Now some things that are about even:
• Officiating: The truth is that some officials are going to make mistakes and some are going to be great. All you can hope for is consistency and hope that they are enforcing a fair playing field.
• The quality of wrestlers: Again I love Oklahoma and lived there for 8 years, my son loves it and it is where he learned the sport. But the truth is that the quality of wrestling is just as good here as there, especially on the state level. I want to give kudos to the number of quality wrestlers in our bracket. Nathan had two very tough matches against Colt Rogers from Smith County and Darrin Stroot from the Brawlers. For all practical purposes, the match with Darrin literally changed with 17 seconds to go in the third period. I don't know young Rogers well, it is the first time wrestling him this year but he was a tough young man. I do know Darin and he, his father and Terry Cox are fine people and I know that Darin is as fine a wrestler as there is in this state.

Now to things better in Kansas:
• Organization and running of the tournament: I know many are complaining about this, but in Oklahoma, it was not unusual to arrive at 7:30 AM and not leave until 10:00 PM or even later, one year at 11:30 PM.
• The facility: Even though Oklahoma goes from OKC to Tulsa neither of those facilities are nearly as nice as the Topeka Expo Center. You can actually sit in the stands or stand around the barriers and watch a mat.
• Less trouble mat side: This is another one to not take lightly. I don't know what it is but there seemed to be far less confrontation and I personally did not observe the unsportsmanlike conduct on the whole that I have observed by a very few, not the overwhelming majority, in Oklahoma.
• The flow of the tournament, kids were generally ready to go once they were due up, there was very few calls made for wrestlers or coaches to show up at a mat.
• The table workers: They were well trained and seemed to be a few but not very many problems.
• Security: Real and professional, not friends wearing a vest.
• The time to wait for awards: We have literally never gotten away from Oklahoma before 11:00 PM awaiting the awards.

Overall, I was honestly surprised at the quality of this tournament. My son has won 2 Oklahoma State Championships and wrestled in numerous state tournaments there. He won his first Kansas State this weekend. I would have to say to the organizers of the Kansas State, I give you the strong advantage of the comparison. While there is room for improvement I believe that this was a fine tournament and one that the wrestling community of Kansas can to be proud of.
Posted By: Nigel Isom Re: Kansas Vs. Oklahoma State - 03/31/03 03:58 PM
Ok just a few comments.

First it would be nice to add the 6&U age group to the state tournament however this adds to the time complexity issue that you were talking about.

I love the challenge idea I have always been in favor of this rule and I wish Kansas would add it.

There is no doubt who has the better hospitality room but this is due to the contract with the Expo center so there is not much that can be done there.

I don't think they need 24 man brackets, the tournament is already long enough and this would make it soooooo much longer.

I like the awards in Kansas, but if they could do something better like a sweatshirt that would be really cool too!

I've never been to the Oklahoma State championships but I've been to the Kansas champs at least 8 and its always been some of the best experiances of my life as a wrestler and now as a coach.
Posted By: Husker Fan Re: Kansas Vs. Oklahoma State - 03/31/03 04:19 PM
Mike,

I agree with Nigel on the 6 & under suggestion. It would add to the time problem with both length of day and wait between matches. I really believe we could still have a quality State tournament experience if we had shorter waits between matches and a shorter overall State tournament day. Have you seen what illegalhold has said about the State tournaments in California and Nebraska in the state split tournament topic? It would also probably mean smaller mats for even more age groups and weight classes. Don't you think all our 12 & unders and maybe even 10 & unders deserve a full mat at their State tournament? I know it would be great to include everyone but there has to be some limitations due to limited resources.
Posted By: Jim Gaither Re: Kansas Vs. Oklahoma State - 03/31/03 04:43 PM
Just a quick comment on 6&U at State. How many Kids tournaments during the season have a 16&U Bracket? How many Kids tournaments during the season have a 6&U Bracket? Never understood this issue. Anyone have insight??
Posted By: 24/7 Re: Kansas Vs. Oklahoma State - 03/31/03 06:00 PM
One thought on the awards. I think it would be inexpensive and pretty cool that each placer get a KS sunflower logo to iron on their singlet. The champions could be slightly different. Just a small logo to signify their accomplishment.
Posted By: Mike Furches Re: Kansas Vs. Oklahoma State - 03/31/03 06:38 PM
Vince & others, The possibility of a 6 and under would not add any time if it were possible to use the room where weigh ins took place. I am sure there are expense issues here but could off set with entry fee's etc from the additional monies generated in attendance.

Regarding full mat's for 12 & under. I definitely agree that this would be nice. I don't know how many times I've seen kids loose points because of their speed and the size of the mat. I also believe that this takes up a lot of additional time for resets, although most all of the officials this weekend did a great job of getting the wrestlers back to the center of the mat.

The suggestions for the split state might have some value it would certainly be worth trying for a year or so and seeing how it turned out. I do believe that if possible it is important to do a combined championship session though.

I know that costs are the often-quoted prohibitive component of why things are not done, and understandably so. I do believe though that these types of things, patch, shirt, etc are worth finding ways to give the tournament winners, even if that means sponsorship style shirts, patches, whatever.
Posted By: Cokeley Re: Kansas Vs. Oklahoma State - 03/31/03 06:44 PM
How about have 6&Under and 16&under on a different weekend so that the 8 & 10 under kids could wrestle on full size mats? How many times did you see a 10 year get to stand up just as the official was blowing the whistle for being out of bounds? We had full size mats at our subdistrict (THANKS PITTSBURG!)and it provided for less stopping and more wrestling.

I would side with those who feel we don't need to have a 16 & Under state at all. They already hand out 56 state championships in high school and all of these kids have that opportunity.

Congratulations to all of the kids who were at state and especially to those who placed. I know they all worked super hard to get there and those worked the hardest were rewarded.
Posted By: BigPin22 Re: Kansas Vs. Oklahoma State - 03/31/03 08:48 PM
The 16 and under can provide some great matchups that we don't get to see during the high school season,this is probably the closest thing we are going to get to a grand state. Most kids can wrestle in 16 and under after their JR. year so some brackets are loaded.

Why would you want to do away with a chance for kids to have a competetive tournament?
Posted By: sportsfan02 Re: Kansas Vs. Oklahoma State - 03/31/03 09:31 PM
I for one am just happy to hear we are keeping up with Oklahoma! In fact, I get emotional just thinking about it!
Posted By: S Biddle Re: Kansas Vs. Oklahoma State - 03/31/03 10:29 PM
I feel they need to cut the weights down at 16U. There are to many weights, use the high school weights and add the 6U weights and you would be fine. I know for a fact that we had 5 kids from our team walk to state at the 16U division. They walked their way to state, we had 1546 6U and 586 16U signed up, I think 6U has just a little bit more kids in it, why not let them wrestle at state like everone else. We want them to wrestle our regular tournaments why not let them wrestle state. I know everyone says they can wrestle 8U but thats not fair to a 5yr old kid. They worked just as hard as everyone else did the whole year let them join in on the fun at State.
Posted By: Cokeley Re: Kansas Vs. Oklahoma State - 04/02/03 11:36 PM
BigPin,
I really don't want to "do away" with the 16&under tournament but I do feel it should be held either on a different weekend or at a different site so that the little guys get a chance to wrestle on full size mats and it is their tournament that they have worked hard all year to reach. The 16's have the high school tournament. I would imagine that any 16 would trade his 16&under medal for a KSHSAA medal regardless of the competition. The little guys deserve a weekend in the spotlight without sharing it with the high school boys.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Kansas Vs. Oklahoma State - 04/03/03 02:37 AM
ditto
Posted By: Nigel Isom Re: Kansas Vs. Oklahoma State - 04/03/03 07:31 AM
I must diagree. Despite the fact that many kids walk on to state in the 16&U bracket at least most of the matches are fun to watch. There are few matches in the 6&U bracket that interest me. At that age most of the kids don't know what they are doing and most of the match is filled with endless reversals. There was one match at the sub district that I was at that was fun to me. I that match a kid literally ran away from his opponent, then he actually ran in circles around his oppononet until he got behind him, it was the funniest match I have ever see. He took this kid down 3 times by just running around him, I think the opponent just got dizzy! Anyway I wouldn't be opposed to adding the 6&U to the state tournament but definatly don't take the 16&U away. One other suggestion I would like to add is maybe at the 14&U level and up they should switch all the weight to the 14 high school weight i.e 103, 112, 119. This way it won't take as much time, besides many people in the 14 and under bracket competed in middle school wrestling or are freshman in high school.
Posted By: jayhawkmom Re: Kansas Vs. Oklahoma State - 04/03/03 12:47 PM
I am a afraid that I have to disagree with changing the weights in the 14 & under. There are alot of kids who wrestle up all through their Junior High season, some by as much as 20-30 pounds. Kids state is about the only place where they get an even playing field. Just my opinion.
Posted By: Nigel Isom Re: Kansas Vs. Oklahoma State - 04/03/03 02:28 PM
And I repsect your opinion jayhawkmom, it was really just a suggestion. maybe the weight should stay the same maybe they shouldn't, I don't think any major changes are going to be made for the next few years so I wouldn't worry too much.
Posted By: Husker Fan Re: Kansas Vs. Oklahoma State - 04/03/03 02:55 PM
Nigel, I disagree with you on the 16 & under issue and I agree with Will. Just because the 16 & Under is more fun for an adult to watch doesn't mean that it should be included it in a grade school State championship tournament. As adults we have a lot of opportunity to go out and enjoy watching our high school wrestlers during their high school season. I do this and I take my son to those high school meets too. Next year we may go to the Maize youth tournament and then maybe attend the high schools finals in the afternoon.

You say it is fun for you to watch the 16 & unders. Well as a father of a 12 year old it would have been more fun for me to watch my son wrestle his State tournament matches on a big mat. I think most people are really only mostly paying attention to their child, their teammates around their child's age whom they practice with and their child's opponents. When my son was in 8 & under all I cared about was that group. I have expanded my interest some in six years but honestly my main focus is still on my son's group and the competitors and teammates around his age group.

To me this tournament consisted of about three different groups the young grade school kids, the older grade school kids and then the high school kids. Other than a couple of teammates that were outside of his age group, our focus was entirely on the older grade school kids that my son is a part of. It seemed liked the high school kids took up almost half the floor space. That means the grade school kids do not have enough floor space to have big mats, they have long waits between matches and they do not have enough room to warm up. I just think the grade school kids are entitled to more quality in their State tournament.

Like Will Cokeley, I think it would be great for our Kids State organization to offer a separate tournament at a different time and place for the high school kids. It could be a one or two age division tournament or possibly an A and B division to reflect junior varsity and varsity. If we had that then I believe it would be the closest thing we could come up with to a high school Grand State.
Posted By: Nigel Isom Re: Kansas Vs. Oklahoma State - 04/03/03 03:53 PM
I just don't agree with having a seperate tournament for kids this age. I mean are you going to organize all the volunteers? Are you going to take another weekend out of your schedule? Are you going to pay to rent the expocenter for another 2 days? - plan on about $20,000-$30,000. I think the 12 and unders do just fine on half a mat. What are they going to do with a whole mat? Anyway we will see what happens in the future but I doubt any significant change will happen.
Posted By: Husker Fan Re: Kansas Vs. Oklahoma State - 04/03/03 04:18 PM
Nigel, I can't tell you how many times I saw 12 to 13 year kids who make up the 12 & under division run themselves out of bounds and stop the action of the match. Many times crucial points were lost. I also saw the referee from the next mat several times sprawled out on his stomach on my son's mat with half of his body or more on my son's mat as he was determining whether a pin was taking place on his mat. This situation seemed somewhat dangerous to me for the wrestlers on my son's mat.

Am I going to organize and spend my time running the separate high school meet? No, I think those people such as yourself who really want to see these matches so much should do that. Personally I think it really isn't even needed. They have already had their high school season and tournament. Like I said I had already enjoyed watching them in their regular season. I agree with the KWCA suggestion in this year's minutes that our Kids season runs to long and as they said it should finish before the high school season does so the high school wrestlers can take a week or two off and then concentrate on freestyle as many chose to do.

I suggested a separate Kids high school tournament only as a better alternative than the current State tournament and the inferior situation for the grade school kids that it causes.
Posted By: Coachjt Re: Kansas Vs. Oklahoma State - 04/03/03 04:34 PM
I have checked into why the High School comes back and wrestles federation state when they just got done with theirs the answer is to get all the wrestling possible for Kansas kids to better themselves for College Wrestling. From what I have seen they have no intention of dropping High School kids.

Also one of the reasons of not moving kids State before High School State is availability of facilities due to Basketball taking up gym space. It is hard enough to find people to take on a Sub-District now much less if some of the gyms aren't available.

Furches do High Schoolers come back in Oklahoma? also adding more qualifiers from each district just adds to more time at the facilities and mostly poor wrestling that first round.

Six year olds have been discussed for years and voted done at the State meeting last year 70% to 30%.
Posted By: Husker Fan Re: Kansas Vs. Oklahoma State - 04/03/03 06:04 PM
Coachjt, the statement that "the answer it to get all the wrestling possible for Kansas kids to better themselves for College Wrestling" seems to me to be different than last Fall's minutes which stated:

"The KWCA had approached Mike and said that they would like to see the Kids wrestling season end earlier. They would like to see it end before High School State, take a couple weeks break, and then start the summer freestyle – Greco-roman season. They honestly feel we are going too long!! A brief decision followed, but it was decided to leave as is."

It appears that the first answer is from our organization and it does seem to be at odds with the KWCA's current position. It appears the KWCA feels their high school wrestlers would be better off preparing themselves for college by concentrating on Freestyle and Greco-Roman after the high school season is over.

As far as gym conflicts, I can see that could pose a problem for us finishing before the high school wrestling and basketball seasons. But Missouri finished two weeks before we did. I think that would be good and help some of the conflicts for the grade school kids who do other sports that have already started like track and baseball practice or maybe give families a little more of a break before they start the Spring and Summer sports seasons.

I don't know about Oklahoma, but I'm pretty sure they do not wrestle high school kids in the Missouri State Kids tournament after their season is over.

I really do not think a six and under division is needed at State. I don't think most of them are ready for or need the added pressure that it brings to the kids and their families. I know there are exceptions but not enough to justify adding a whole new age group to State.
Posted By: Coachjt Re: Kansas Vs. Oklahoma State - 04/03/03 06:42 PM
My personal opinion is to move the kids State two weeks before High School State thus eliminating High School kids, letting young kids watch High School State and allowing parents that have kids in both go to their High School Regional.

Move all Middle School Wrestling to before Christmas that way they can participate and change the 14&U weights to Middle School weights.

You have shorted the season lost a few weight classes and you can add 6&U if you want to?

Most States have their kids progam done before High School.
Posted By: sportsfan02 Re: Kansas Vs. Oklahoma State - 04/03/03 06:48 PM
JT,
You might add that it hasn't been District II voting down the 6U state question. As far as I know we've always strongly supported 6U state.
Posted By: Husker Fan Re: Kansas Vs. Oklahoma State - 04/03/03 06:51 PM
Coachjt for Governor! You got my vote. I endorse your platform.

Seriously good plan.
Posted By: Mike Furches Re: Kansas Vs. Oklahoma State - 04/03/03 08:39 PM
CoachJT, There are some High School Kids that come back but not to the extent that I saw in Topeka. What they do there is what I suggested earlier. Use the large room used for weigh in's and then you can include both U16 and U6. Of course it comes at the condition that parents, coaches etc, volunteer to meet the extra needs of running the extra mats in the extra room. I believe this could be done with little extra cost, especially when considering in the number of extra wreslters and fans it brings in. The time constraint in OK is one of the primary reasons not so many come back.
Posted By: Noblet Re: Kansas Vs. Oklahoma State - 04/03/03 08:42 PM
My understanding is Mo. wrestlers do not get the opportunity to wrestle in the kids program if they wrestled in high school. Freshmen on up.
I think one plus for high school kids getting to compete would be for those freshman and sophmores that wrestle JV behind a good senior. They would get more mat time and the chance for a state title. Maybe a chance to place at a state tournament or even just that chance to compete.
Many kids do not for whatever reason start wrestling until they participate with a school program. Maybe they did pretty well their first year and the kids program would offer them more mat time and again the chance to compete or place at a state tournament. Perhaps that would give them more incentive or confidence starting the next season.
I'm really not much for the idea of six and under at State I have watched so many that don't understand all the excitement, what's going on, or why the parents, everybody is so fired up.
One of the things I hate to see more than anything are the open tournaments around the six & under mats. Mom's hanging off the upper railing yelling and screaming at a little child that has no idea what's going on. Dad's screaming back at the upper rail telling mom to shut up so he can yell and scream at the little one. And to the little ones it just seems mom & dad are mad as hell. They don't know why but it makes for a long ride home. That is something I really don't want to see at our State Tournament.
Wrestling is a growing and learning experiance for the entire family. Unless maybe your the youngest child in a wrestling family. I think most of those can compete at eight & under.
I do like the idea of a six & under championship. Although I've never been to one it seems they would be done in a high school gym. Not near as many people or near as much excitement. It seems most that do advocate six & under their kids would be able to participate in the eight & under division, certainly by the time it was passed. There are no doubt those who have an older child and they want their youngest to do as well and be there at State with their older sibling. That kind of stress and presure I don't think needs to be imposed on a 4,5 or 6 year old child. Give them a chance first to see that wrestling is fun.
Posted By: Husker Fan Re: Kansas Vs. Oklahoma State - 04/03/03 09:07 PM
Mr. Noblet:

I have the some of the same concerns and thoughts you expressed about the six and under participation. I believe you had some excellent points about that. There does however seem to be a strong demand for their participation. I would alter Coachjt's plan a little to revise the age divisions. Instead of our current system which is geared to 3rd grade & under (8&U), 4th and 5th (10&U), 6th & 7th (12&U), and 8th and 9th (14&U), I would propose 7 & Under (2nd grade and under), 9 & Under (3rd & 4th graders), 11 & under (5th & 6th graders) and finally 14 & under with no high school wrestlers allowed to participate but would allow kids who might have been held back a grade or started school a little late (7th & 8th graders primarily). This would use the same August 31st cutoff date to match the schools.

This would make it a little easier for a few more younger kids to participate since they would be facing 2nd graders instead of 3rd graders. I'm not sure that the majority of the high school wrestlers who actually come back to participate are really the first year Freshman or JV type wrestlers anyway. It seems like the majority of the ones I see at State are varsity wrestlers who have actually qualified if not won or placed at their high school State tournaments.

I say let's give the grade school kids the high quality State tournament experience that they deserve. I do not think we are doing that 100% right now. Let's have a Grade School Kids State Tournament. Grade school kids and high school young men and women should have separate tournaments like just about all other sports do.
Posted By: Nigel Isom Re: Kansas Vs. Oklahoma State - 04/03/03 09:16 PM
Unacceptable,

we will not be getting rid of the 16&U age group and to even propose such a thing is crazy. No more talk about giving this group and that group a great state experiance. Ask just about any kid in any age group and they will tell you that thye enjoy their state experience regardless of how its run. 16 year olds are still "kids" and this is "kids" wrestling. Don't deny these wrestlers the opportunity to extend their folkstyle season. I would support adding the 6&U's even though it would just cuase more problems, however I would argue to the end about remove 16&U and you better beleive that I would be at any meeting where this issue would be brought up.
Posted By: Husker Fan Re: Kansas Vs. Oklahoma State - 04/03/03 09:30 PM
Well Nigel, you were probably correct when you made an earlier post and said that is not going to be changed anytime soon. But that is too bad if it is true because High School kids and Grade school kids should have separate athletic events. Just about all other sports do it that way. From Coachjt's statement above it sounds like most other States even do it that way for wrestling.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Kansas Vs. Oklahoma State - 04/04/03 03:08 AM
Many 16 & unders don't wrestle varsity in high school and don't get the chance to wrestle in a state tournament. By dropping the 16 and under division you will be depriving a group of kids of a state experience who may have working their tail off for 10 or so years. 6 and unders can wrestle in the 8 and under at state, many have and have done well. They will have many chances in the future to wrestle in the Big Show. I know many clubs consider the 6 and under championships at Districts a pain in the butt because it drains resources and coaches from the older more mature kids.
Posted By: illegalhold Re: Kansas Vs. Oklahoma State - 04/04/03 03:53 AM
I don't think Oklahoma is the model to follow for the state tournament format, weights or age divisions. The inherent problems are the same as Kansas at this point. Nothing at all against Oklahoma. The example was great and appreciated but i think we need to do some outside of the box thinking here

i love watching the 6 and unders wrestle, lets face it, the majority of those kids are out only because of being placed there. There is no need to have them there.


I really think that we should think about a couple of things here, one--maximizing the time factor for everyone, shorter times in between, "slotted" vs a split format or current format. Example: 8 to 11, all the available mats are for age groups 10 u, 12 u, etc. Someone with the analytical ability of Mr Salyer could figure a proper length of time based on number of mats and matches.

Also as a former middle school and high school coach, i just think it is critical to have a kid come in to high school off a successfull year of middle school and kids wrestling. I lost a ton of kids who as decent 8th grade wrestlers got there butts handed to them in the kids division between 8th & 9th grade. A lot of the time it was the fragile ego of the parent that factored in but it cost me a lot of decent kids who may have let themselves develop in to good high schoolers. How many kids do u know do the yo-yo, have the good year on top of the age division and the not so good year on the bottom. I even had one family on my club team wrestle only on the on top year. It was crazy.


When i was in Nebraska, i was able to supplement my son's years on the bottom side with AAU tournaments that were based on grade level. So when he was a young 12 and under, he was on top in the 5th and 6th grade AAU division. It was nice and paved over some bumpy roads when the success was harder to come by. It worked wonders on his confidence level and by the end of the season, it really did not matter he was on the downside of the age group, and he had success.
Posted By: smokeycabin Re: Kansas Vs. Oklahoma State - 04/04/03 10:10 AM
6 & UNDER STATE IS TO YOUNG PERIOD. I know I am not speaking for everyone. I have coached youth wrestling for over twenty years. I have coached 5 year olds and I have coached college all-Americans. I had a undefeated 10 & under state champ move to our area and when he grew a little and went to the 12 & under group he didn't even win 50% of his matches. I also vote at the state body meeting and I will NEVER vote for 6 & under state tournament. We do not need to put false expectations into these young children’s minds. A 6 & under state champ may not make it back to state for another 4 years or ever. This creates false expectations in the child and in the parents who think their kid is the toughest roughest rumbler this side of the Mississippi. My son was a pretty decent wrestler at six and under and won the majority of his matches in the two tournaments I let him pick to enter. When he graduated to 8 & under and he was all of 7 years old he was getting it handed to him pretty hard by some eight year olds. When he was eight he dealt some of the 7 year olds a whipping. I think as a whole that is the natural progression the majority of kids make. I as a coach do not want to burn out the young participants when he or she is in eighth grade.
I have seen it all to often that a parent is trying to create a national/Olympic champion. Your child is not you and never will be you. So lets stop all this nonsense for a 6 & under world champ. I have seen parents run their kids out of baseball, football, track, tennis, golf, etc. Do not live your life through your child’s eyes.
I have seen parents’ way out of hand watching the six and under group and our sport doesn't need that kind of pressure put on these young people.
The boys and girls will grow up at their own pace - not in your or my time frame. THE END!
Posted By: Coachjt Re: Kansas Vs. Oklahoma State - 04/04/03 04:24 PM
I don't agree with
"Many 16 & under don't wrestle varsity in high school and don't get the chance to wrestle in a state tournament."
If you look most of the 16&U placers are the same ones that either placed or qualified in High School State. How many times do you see High School State champions come back and take fourth or something in Federation?
You don't see many placers in 16&U that didn't qualify for High School State unless it is at one of the extra weights. If this is all about mat time for kids to improve make a rule that if you qualify for High School State you can't go the Federation State. That way the lesser talented kids get the State experience.
But that is not going to happen because it is about seeing how many State titles you can get and to prepare the kids that place in both every year, for College wrestling.
Posted By: Husker Fan Re: Kansas Vs. Oklahoma State - 04/04/03 05:09 PM
Richard,

I never really doubted that the KWCA statement was self serving. Probably most of our statements and positions have a certain amount of a self-serving motive to them. I know my posts most of the time do. Heck I want bigger mats at State and the State qualifying tournaments for my son's age groups. I also want shorter waits between matches there and a shorter overall day especially on that first day. I want all that for him and me as a parent. So yes there is a self serving motive to my posts. I could never deny that.

I think it is okay for the KWCA to have a self serving motive to their position too. What is obvious though is that if they want our Kids season to end before the high school State tournament does than the KWCA must not be too worried that the high school wrestlers would be missing out of participating in what would then become a Grade School Kids State tournament.

I think coachjt has done a pretty good job of detailing why we have high school participation in our Kids tournament. I believe his statement that there are no plans to exclude their participation in our tournament by our Kids powers to be tells me that dropping high school wrestlers from Kids is unlikely to happen any time soon in Kansas.
Posted By: Coachjt Re: Kansas Vs. Oklahoma State - 04/04/03 08:18 PM
Richard,

"Is not the KWCA request for our season to be shorter due to the fact they would like their season to be longer!"

No, the original thought was to add one week but, they were told if they tried that, there was no possibility to get Dual State Passed. So they want to move Individual State back a week and add Dual State. But then some people were winning that that would interfere with their League Tournament. The last I heard was they can't get it passed because the other sports don't have the same opportunity?

Grand state championship is just a pipe dream, it won't happen.

The KWCA thinks that we push the kids too hard for too long (I agree) and they would like us to shorten the season and maybe have all the youngsters come and watch the High School State Championships.
Posted By: Husker Fan Re: Kansas Vs. Oklahoma State - 04/06/03 05:00 PM
Richard,

We are trying to get a group together to present a split tournament format. That will a little bit of time to form the group and put together a proposal. Hopefully it will be given some consideration.

I would probably quit complaining about the mat sizes if all the age groups had equal size mats. Perhaps that might be the way to handle it. According to your thought if the 16 & unders had the same size small mats along with the other age groups then they too could also learn how to wrestle in the center of the mat. Aren't we trying to also teach young wrestlers motion and to move in a circle on their feet and not just tie up in the center?
Posted By: Husker Fan Re: Kansas Vs. Oklahoma State - 04/06/03 08:44 PM
Richard,

If I wanted to continue to bicker and be petty on this, I could say yes as a child gets older they do progress to the next level and that is normally a progression from grade school events to high school events. By the way I did want bigger mats for him last year as a 10 year old too. Really it is not all 100% self serving either. My son is almost out of youth. He is going to be a 7th grader next year, so it sure would be a lot easier for me just to accept this and grin and bear it. I really would like to see the sport grow though and I do not think these long tournaments help the sport grow in participation or popularity.

I know I've more than had my say on this issue, so I should just stop posting on the topic because I'm pretty convinced that it is not changing anyway.

In closing I agree with you, "Go Jayhawks".
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