Any Validity to the story about the Derby Wrestling Team at the Garden City Tourney?
If not, that is a horrible prank!!!!
If what is said on the web site is true what would they be able to be kicked off for, they could fight that and win so I'll still have to have derby in the top 3 of 6a.
I certainly do not believe what may be nothing more than lie a on a website.
I have not been on here all year, but this is important to wrestling. I don't mean to be rude... but having alcohol on a school trip is not worth being kicked off for. I believe coaches have been fired for doing this!!!!!??? I am a huge Coach Ross fan and like Derby wrestling so I wish no harm on any of them. I just want to know if it is true!!!
I would not have believed it if I had not gotten a phone call late last night telling me the same thing before I read this post.
Church
Very interesting. Well worthy of posting Michael.
From my information, there was a problem that happened after the tournament in Garden City. The post made on the other forum has “greatly” overstated on what actually happened. The correct disciplinary action has been taken. Coach Ross is “not” under fire by anyone from Derby. Give the team a break and let things take their coarse. They did nothing that hasn’t happened before by others. I know some will take this opportunity to throw mud on a great bunch of kids and a very good coach. Anyone with class will let this post drop & give support to the team to get through this. Remember there are others on the team that were not involved.
Mr. Furches, can you clear this up for everyone so we can all know what to believe.
I won't say much, but will say this; much of what has been said has been blown out of proportion. There is so many untruths at the Kansas.com post which I saw this morning that it makes me sick. I will also say that Derby has dealt with the situation, appropriately in my opinion. Some high school students made a stupid mistake, one I and I suspect many others on this forum made at one point in their lives, certainly not all, but many. I again, truly believe that Derby High School and the Coaching Staff have dealt with the issue appropriately. Anyone wanting to know the truth about my own son's involvement is welcome to call me at 316-258-3952 and I will share the truth, otherwise I won't say anything else on these forums. I will say, my son as a result of being singled out on the Kansas.com forum, has decided that he wants to make a post later this evening, dealing with his own actions, no one else’s. I will also say that many of the comments on the Kansas.com forum are totally false, not just about my son, but some of the others involved.
Let me be clear, I personally hold my son responsible for his actions. He is learning a hard lesson, one I suspect many parents would appreciate as I am a strong disciplinarian. I also believe in the concept of serving punishment willingly, and learning from your mistakes. I am saddened today as a parent more than anyone here may realize. I ask those on the forums to be careful about singling out these students, especially when the truth is not always known by what is typed into a message board. Anyone who truly knows me, and knows my family, knows this is something that is unacceptable. They also know I love my son.
Mike,
I don't know you personally but by reading this forum, I feel I know you. Let me introduce myself, I've been around this sport for over 50 years as a high school wrestler at Norton, college wrestler at K-State, a former coach and now as a fan.
Over 30 years ago as a young coach, I signed a form written by our athletic director stating any athlete breaking training rules would be eliminated from the team. One of my senior wrestlers went to a party and drank some beer. I eliminated him from the team, a decision I regret to this day. My decision on this matter could have had a more negative influence on his life than drinking a few beers. At that point in his life, he needed wrestling more than wrestling needed him. Thank God this young man didn't let my decision effect his life.
I know Derby High School, Coach Ross and the parents are very disappointed in some of the wrestlers. I'm just telling you from experience, make the punishment reasonable. Jake Durham, my coach at Norton, had the philosophy that all kids are 99.9% good: we shouldn't dwell on the .1% when they screw up.
Ron Tacha
Manhattan
Jake seemed to have a little success with that philosophy. Sometimes kids make mistakes. Hopefully they live through it and learn from them.
EVERYBODY, not just kids, makes 'mistakes' every day of their life. Sometimes justice is needed. Sometimes grace is needed. Sometimes a bit of both. You don't need a tank to kill a fly. May Derby have the wisdom needed in dealing with this situation appropriately.
Knowing Nathan as well as I do, and having discussed it with people who know the situation, most of what was said is complete rubbish. Yes, there was some stuff happen that was against the rules, and those involved are being disciplined appropriately. Speaking from experience, most high schoolers take part in this stuff at least once in their life, and many kids do it every weekend. It seems a little unfair to me that because of Nathan's name, he's held to a higher standard than other kids his age. However it's something that will happen no matter what, and I think this will be a great lesson for him. I expect Nathan to mature a lot in the next week.
May Derby have the wisdom needed in dealing with this situation appropriately.
The High School & Coaching staff has done so.
Knowing Nathan as well as I do, and having discussed it with people who know the situation, most of what was said is complete rubbish. Yes, there was some stuff happen that was against the rules, and those involved are being disciplined appropriately. Speaking from experience, most high schoolers take part in this stuff at least once in their life, and many kids do it every weekend. It seems a little unfair to me that because of Nathan's name, he's held to a higher standard than other kids his age. However it's something that will happen no matter what, and I think this will be a great lesson for him. I expect Nathan to mature a lot in the next week.
The only mention of an involved students name on this thread was by you.
Was there mention of any standard, let alone a higher standard for specific individuals?
I learned of this matter Sunday evening and choose to stay quiet as it was simply none of my business, and I believe Coach Ross to be an outstanding role model for high school athletes. I learned of the Kansas.com post yesterday evening and did not read the thread until this morning. I do know my high school daughter (a wrestling cheerleader) and high school son have been in similar situations and chose to inform their friends of the dangers of their destructive behavior. My son was recently called at 01:30 A.M to pick up a wrestling teammate who had too much to drink. My wife and I allowed my son to pick up the teammate as we were thrilled the child chose not to drive. The teammate knew Ryan was sober as they were at the same party and Ryan choose to leave when the alcohol arrived.
There are children who have been taught the dangers of this type of activity and make the appropriate decisions.
To suggest that one individual is held to a higher standard is ludicrous when ten (10) of fourteen (14) wrestlers and four (4) team managers have been suspended from school and the four (4) managers reportedly kicked off the team. My source for this information is one of the suspended students parent.
At first blush, and if the managers were indeed kicked off the team, (the students parent assures me she was kicked off) it appears as though the managers were held to the higher standard, and not your friend who you so loyally defend.
So since the managers are kicked off what is the fait of the wrestlers, I can't see them kicking off the whole team ecspecially when they are pretty good
Mr. Salyer I doubt few people on a message forum know the whole story as to what is going on. I certainly know that some of us posting on this need to be careful about commenting about appropriate use of alcohol. I will say this, last night the young man's name was mentioned and there was certainly clear indication as to blame being cast on him when in fact, after some effort today, I realize that is an unfair dispersion of blame. Thankfully, The Wichita Eagle has removed the thread from their forums; maybe it is time usawks does the same.
i don't really see a reason to shut this thread down. we're dealing with an incident that really happened, no one has made any intense personal slams, and it effects the course of the season in wrestling.
i don't really see a reason to shut this thread down. we're dealing with an incident that really happened, no one has made any intense personal slams, and it effects the course of the season in wrestling.
I agree. I always prefer that we do not mention wrestlers by name in these type of situations and isn't it unusual that the most gossipy types are our younger members of this board. I believe there are "good examples of bad examples", at least that's the way an old boss used to refer to me.
Actually I replied to the individual who posted the comment and asked him to take the names off of the post and I am only 20 years old.
So since the managers are kicked off what is the fait of the wrestlers, I can't see them kicking off the whole team ecspecially when they are pretty good
This is an incredibly dumb thing to say regarding an issue like this. Do you honestly believe that just because an entire wrestling team appears to be a top 3 or 4 team in the state that they are exempt from the rules?
I believe that those involved should be punished in a reasonable and acceptable fashion, something to fit the crime so to speak. I can't say that I have read the team handbook of Derby Wrestling (if one exists). I would say that whatever is contained in that book should be the penalty administered. It shouldn't matter how good a wrestler is that determines his/her punishment. I know where I came from our team book had specific guidelines regarding alcohol/tobacco use. Anyone caught with alcohol/tobacco was suspended from the team for the week which included any duals and tournaments that week. This was in accordance with the schools own policies. The 2nd time for this offense was dismissal for the team. There were no provisions for an athlete’s talent level.
I have met the wrestler whose name was mentioned here. He is an intelligent person with a heart of gold. I honestly believe that this incident will serve as a great reminder that there are still rules in life, and I don't think he will repeat them. As far as the team goes, it would be a shame to see leniency shown just because of their talent level. Rules are set for a reason and if you break them you have to be willing to accept the consequences of them.
i don't really see a reason to shut this thread down. we're dealing with an incident that really happened, no one has made any intense personal slams, and it effects the course of the season in wrestling.
I can agree as the message board, which this thread comments on,
http://www.kansas.com, has removed their posts, which did include offensive posts singling out a specific wrestler. I have made a few more phone calls and here are things I would consider we all think about. If in fact a different action occurred for the managers which it appears it did, maybe more information needs to be gathered before assumptions are made on this forum. For example, if a different event, (I know, hard to believe), occurred with the managers and if they had different actions and responses as opposed to the wrestlers, the different punishment may have been justified. Maybe Mr. Salyer can indicate with his friend, if the managers were cooperative with the coaches or not? Were they in the same room as the party, or not? Were they cooperative with the administration, or not? It seems to me the wrestlers in fact did not even know about the managers “party.” If one is to place their trust in the administration and coaches, maybe, the administration understands and realizes a different set of circumstances occurred and they responded appropriately.
I know this type of thing occurs with most high school teams. I don’t support it, but that don’t change the facts. Anyone who denies it, likely never participated on a sports team. That is not an excuse and the actions should not be condoned. But I think a good topic of discussion related to this might be what schools do to prevent this type of thing. Our school has a lights out policy, and coaches check the room on overnight trips to insure the wrestlers are staying out of trouble. I expect when allowing a large group of high school students to get together in a room there is little good that can be expected. High school kids will be high school kids. At that point parental assignment to rooms, coaches’ room checks and those types of things should be expected. I don't know how something like this could have occurred with a team that follows this policy.
I do believe Derby’s administration, coaches, and parents have control of this situation. Hopefully, we can learn from it to see that it doesn’t occur with our Kansas schools in the future. As stated before, let’s be careful about making decisions that affect the life of a high school student. While some may pretend these students are adults, that is all they are doing, pretending. These were not youth caught with a DUI or having a drinking problem. May some of us who on occasion consume alcohol, or have done things we shouldn’t that make this pale in comparison, be careful before we throw stones, may we instead seek truth, justice, while at the same time, displaying mercy.
Knowing Nathan as well as I do, and having discussed it with people who know the situation, most of what was said is complete rubbish. Yes, there was some stuff happen that was against the rules, and those involved are being disciplined appropriately. Speaking from experience, most high schoolers take part in this stuff at least once in their life, and many kids do it every weekend. It seems a little unfair to me that because of Nathan's name, he's held to a higher standard than other kids his age. However it's something that will happen no matter what, and I think this will be a great lesson for him. I expect Nathan to mature a lot in the next week.
The only mention of an involved students name on this thread was by you.
Was there mention of any standard, let alone a higher standard for specific individuals?
I learned of this matter Sunday evening and choose to stay quiet as it was simply none of my business, and I believe Coach Ross to be an outstanding role model for high school athletes. I learned of the Kansas.com post yesterday evening and did not read the thread until this morning. I do know my high school daughter (a wrestling cheerleader) and high school son have been in similar situations and chose to inform their friends of the dangers of their destructive behavior. My son was recently called at 01:30 A.M to pick up a wrestling teammate who had too much to drink. My wife and I allowed my son to pick up the teammate as we were thrilled the child chose not to drive. The teammate knew Ryan was sober as they were at the same party and Ryan choose to leave when the alcohol arrived.
There are children who have been taught the dangers of this type of activity and make the appropriate decisions.
To suggest that one individual is held to a higher standard is ludicrous when ten (10) of fourteen (14) wrestlers and four (4) team managers have been suspended from school and the four (4) managers reportedly kicked off the team. My source for this information is one of the suspended students parent.
At first blush, and if the managers were indeed kicked off the team, (the students parent assures me she was kicked off) it appears as though the managers were held to the higher standard, and not your friend who you so loyally defend.
Well Dick, if you read the post on the Kansas.com forum, Nathan was directly attacked there. So, I put his name on here to defend him. And I understand that not everyone on this message board has friends, but I do, and I am loyal to them. I will always come to their defense.
As for him not being held to a higher standard, that's ridiculous. You said your son attended a party, where there was alcohol. I commend him for leaving, but why wasn't the fact that there were other wrestlers there drinking ever brought up on a message forum? Why don't we ever hear of the other stories of kids getting caught drinking? I can assure you it happens in every public school. The difference? Someone wanted to call out a very respected person to bring them down.
As for you hinting that Mike didn't raise his kid right, think again. He loves his kids with all his heart and I think he's raised his 2 kids wonderfully. Just because a kid makes one mistake doesn't mean he has bad parents. It's ridiculous that you would put that twist on it.
Heres my take on this situation. I do not mean to offend anyone and I'm hoping my views will possibly allow a few of us to at least look at these things from a different angle. I will say the name of Nathan Furches but please read my entire post before jumping to any conclusions, I am not attacking anyone.
1) I do not think its fair but the fact of the matter is a kid like Furches will be singled out and held to a higher standard when things like this happen. This is because a great wrestler has a lot more to lose then a so-so wrestler.
2) I do not personally know Nathan Furches but have always found him a pleasure to watch. He is a tough competitor, a hard worker and a class act on and off the mat from what I have witnessed at tournaments and I have never heard anything bad about him. This does not change that. Good people make mistakes, even great people make mistakes.
3) Lots of High School kids drink. Lots of High School athletes drink. This doesn't mean this act in and of itself is acceptable. However a lot of these kids that do this are good kids and good human beings. I'm sure a lot of people would be shocked to know how many classy and well respected kids in wrestling drink occasionally. You don't have to think this is right or anything like that. But the only different between this situation and a huge percentage of High School wrestlers is that they got caught. Don't condone it, don't think its right, but don't lose respect for any of these kids over it either.
4) I personally do not know Derby's policy on alcohol. It sounds as if these kids will serve some kind of suspension and be allowed to wrestle again this year. I do hope this is the case. While I believe these actions should be punished I see nothing to gain in ending the season for these young men.
5) No one should even hint that this has anything to do with the parenting of Mike Furches or anyone else. I can tell you from experience that my parents raised me in a Christian home where alcohol was NEVER used and they expected me to not drink at all. As a high school athlete I still made the decision to drink on occasion. This wasn't right, but theres nothing under the sun my parents could have done to prevent it. Based on the reputation of Mike Furches I would say this lies in the same category. Sometimes what a parent tells their kid isn't enough and the kid must simply learn from making their own decisions
Finally....
Before any of us are to critical we need to look in mirror. As a Christian I believe God has given each of us multiple chances and forgiven us for multiple mistakes. You may or may not share that spiritual belief with me. Even if you don't think back in your life and I'm sure you were given second chances. Theres a lot worse things then a kid getting caught up and being involved in a party. It should be reprimanded, but its not exactly punishable by death. These kids have and will be punished, lets allow that to be sufficient and appreciate the positive qualities they have in the past and will continue to exhibit. I don't believe a dose of mercy here is to much to ask.
To play the devil's advocate.
I don't recall pleas and calls for mercy when a certain kid from a certain wichita club and then high school make a not so nice gesture after winning a state championship years ago.
I mention this because there really wasn't a way to punish this wrestler at the time, but I often wonder what would have happened had they had the ability?
i to would lide to know the fate of the wrestlers for i have been involved in the exact same kind of incident in hs.i was suspended from school for 1 week,suspended from one wrestling dual,attended an aa program for 3 months,and coach had me do extra conditioning before and after practice for the rest of the season.I LEARNED MY LEASON.SO I HOPE THAT THE WRESTLERS INVOLVED AND THE MANAGERS HAVE NOT BEEN KICKED OFF THE TEAM FOR THE REMAINDER OF THE YEAR FOR THAT WOULD BE TAKING IT TO FAR IN MY OPINION
Well Dick, if you read the post on the Kansas.com forum, Nathan was directly attacked there. So, I put his name on here to defend him.
Unless the posts were edited on Kansas.com, which I didn't notice, none of the wrestlers were identified by name. The first post in the thread appeared to be referencing a certain wrestler, but not by name. If in fact the poster was doing so, it would have only been obvious to those on this board and not to the majority on Kansas.com. Like most boards, wrestling doesn't have much of a following there.
To play the devil's advocate.
I don't recall pleas and calls for mercy when a certain kid from a certain wichita club and then high school make a not so nice gesture after winning a state championship years ago.
I mention this because there really wasn't a way to punish this wrestler at the time, but I often wonder what would have happened had they had the ability?
He could have been punished. Adults around him just chose not to, as had been the case his entire career. Had they punished him as a youngster maybe the gesture never would have happened.
If you actually read the entire thread, someone asked the original poster to delete the names, and the poster did so. He went from the name to saying a "national champion". The text at the bottom of the original post that said "post edited" was also a dead giveaway that he edited his post.
If you actually read the entire thread, someone asked the original poster to delete the names, and the poster did so. He went from the name to saying a "national champion". The text at the bottom of the original post that said "post edited" was also a dead giveaway that he edited his post.
What part of my first sentence, ("Unless the posts were edited on Kansas.com,
which I didn't notice,") did you not understand?
Apparently the same part of "Nathan was directly attacked there" that you didn't understand.
Apparently the same part of "Nathan was directly attacked there" that you didn't understand.
Ah but as I pointed out any names had been edited prior to my first viewing the thread. I figured you would understand that, my bad!
I assumed everyone that read the post on Kansas.com would have figured out that there were names named before the post was edited.
All I can say is KIDS! Especially teenagers, they are the smartest people in the world… just ask them. Until they actually have there own children you can’t tell them anything. As a parent you just have to face the fact that you are the dumbest SOB on the earth. You just got to love them and try to educate them about life and hope they make the right choices.
yeah, you live and you learn. just try not to make the same mistakes twice.
That is what you get for assuming.
I assumed everyone that read the post on Kansas.com would have figured out that there were names named before the post was edited.
Especially if everyone had read the entire thread and posts indicating the person needed to remove names, and they themselves in another post stated they had indeed removed the names. Of course I am as guilty as anyone for at times not reading everything in a thread.
That wasn't the same wisdom you dispensed to a certain 112LB finalist in the hallway at the Newton Tourney.
any word on when we can expect furches back on the mat?
any word on when we can expect furches back on the mat?
From what I've heard, those affected will be back in the practice room next week sometime. They will miss the Rosehill tournament.
I have pretty much stayed out of this until this evening. First and utmost they are kids and kids do make mistakes, for that matter so do adults. The school, coaching staff and parents have issued out the appropriate discipline, the wrestlers are serving it and will recover from it. I heard something this evening that irritated me to no ends. A high school coach had stated that some of the team will not be wrestling the rest of the year for the incident. That statement is not true, they are serving the appropriate discipline and will be back next week. That being said I personally would like any and all negative comments to hault. To the wrestlers, keep your heads up and put yourselves together and build on this. I know you can and will and remember that you have more wrestling to do. Good luck and we will see you at State.
Coach Miller
If it is true that they will be back wrestling next week, they are fortunate that Derby does not have the same policy as our school district. The Shawnee Mission district has a zero tolerance policy - every athlete signs an Alcohol/Tobacco/Drug contract which includes:
FIRST OFFENSE IN SEASON VIOLATION:
A conference including a building administrator, the student, parents/guardians of the student,and the coach or sponsor will be conducted. If verification is found to be sufficient by school administration, the student will be suspended from participation in all extra-curricular competition/practices for the remainder of the current season.
I'm not saying this policy is the correct one, but it certainly is clear. We have lost star athletes in a couple of sports over the years because they violated this contract.
its unfortunate that the shawnee mission school district has taken that policy. i believe that discipline should not be to punish kids but rather to change behavior. obviously you do have to punish kids to an extent in that. but if you give the one and done punishment the kid has little reason to not continue what he or she is doing. however if the first time serves as a wake up call there is a good chance the kid will change his behavior accordingly, which is what i believe the ultimate goal should be.
Side note: a young man named Ryan Lilja missed his Senior football season because of the Shawnee Mission alcohol policy. This Sunday he will start at left guard for the Colts in the super bowl.....no real point to that, just a bit interesting to see that it didnt have a negative impact on his career in the long run. in fact, who knows, it may have kept him from tearing up a knee or something...
I recall reading that Ryan Lilja lost scholarship offers due to missing his senior season after violating the SMSD alcohol contract. He spent 2 years at Coffeyville Community College before transfering to Kansas State. When he made it to the Pros, he talked about how that poor decision as a high school athlete made it much tougher for him to acheive his goals. He is an excellent example of overcoming adversity.
If it is true that they will be back wrestling next week, they are fortunate that Derby does not have the same policy as our school district. The Shawnee Mission district has a zero tolerance policy - every athlete signs an Alcohol/Tobacco/Drug contract which includes:
FIRST OFFENSE IN SEASON VIOLATION:
A conference including a building administrator, the student, parents/guardians of the student,and the coach or sponsor will be conducted. If verification is found to be sufficient by school administration, the student will be suspended from participation in all extra-curricular competition/practices for the remainder of the current season.
I'm not saying this policy is the correct one, but it certainly is clear. We have lost star athletes in a couple of sports over the years because they violated this contract.
Nothing like giving the death penalty for shoplifting. I would bet that it is much harder for teachers and administrators to look for "verification" under that policy than under a more reasonable punishment.
its unfortunate that the shawnee mission school district has taken that policy. i believe that discipline should not be to punish kids but rather to change behavior. obviously you do have to punish kids to an extent in that. but if you give the one and done punishment the kid has little reason to not continue what he or she is doing. however if the first time serves as a wake up call there is a good chance the kid will change his behavior accordingly, which is what i believe the ultimate goal should be.
Side note: a young man named Ryan Lilja missed his Senior football season because of the Shawnee Mission alcohol policy. This Sunday he will start at left guard for the Colts in the super bowl.....no real point to that, just a bit interesting to see that it didnt have a negative impact on his career in the long run. in fact, who knows, it may have kept him from tearing up a knee or something...
What is the appropriate first offense punishment? I honestly do not know. In this particular incident I am very confident that the parents, school administrators and coaches will come to the correct decisions for all of the student athletes and managers involved.
Is the Shawnee Mission policy too severe? At first look it does seem to be. On the other side though the punishment should not be too lenient either. It should serve both as a deterrent for possible future offenders and as a corrective punishment for those who have violated the rule. I know from personal experience back in the seventies that I needed more severe punishment for these type of offenses. I think I would have stopped drinking alcohol sooner if my earlier offenses had been dealt with more severely.
I remember reading about Ryan Lilja's offense and punishment when he was a senior in high school. I felt the punishment was too severe at the time. I would probably still say that for a first offense. But in Lilja's case maybe it did work out for the best. Perhaps if the punishment had been less severe, it might not have sent a strong enough message to Ryan and who knows what might have happened then. Perhaps it has prevented other Shawnee Mission students from doing the same thing over the years.
Again I do not know what the appropriate punishment should be for a first offense and I am completely confident that the responsible parties will make the proper decision in this case. But I also cannot just say that the Shawnee Mission policy is just outright wrong.
I wish the Furches and all the families of those involved good luck and God's grace in dealing with this situation. They are all good families and people and with God's help they would come out of this stronger as individuals and families.
I agree. Very well said Vince.
When I wrestled in the shawnee mission district there was no drug/alcohol policy, and like a lot of other high school students I did drink at parties at what not. The fact of the matter is that right, wrong, or indifferent, there is a "death penalty" policy in Shawnee Mission. Do I agree with it? Actually I am not sure. I am curious to know wether any other districts have such a policy in place. The fact of the matter is I like a lot of other people when they were in high school made stupid decisions. Heck we all thought we were invincable. And I can tell you this truthfully that while I was in season I never got near the stuff but had I ever been kicked off, I am pretty sure that I would have gone to the next party. Now that doest make it right but I know that is what a majority of those affected do. However It really upsets me that when a student gets in trouble he/she is usually labled as a "bad kid." Anyway I will get off of my soap box now.
i guess i believe when in doubt, error on the side of the kid. i also believe strongly in 2nd chances. my logic tells me, if a kid is really that bad he'll blow the 2nd chance to and get whats coming in the end anyways.
I don't have an answear to what is right and what is wrong, but back in the 80's Eddie Borror was a senior, 18 was the legal drinking age and Eddie was seen drinking a beer at Pizza Hut with his family. It was reported to the school district. Eddie ranked #1 in the state and a returning Oklahoma State Champion was kicked off of the team. His parents hired an attorney and got him back on the team. The AVL coaches refused to allow their wrestlers to wrestle Eddie the rest of his season. He was finally kicked off of the team ending his season. That was a harsh punishment handed out by the school district and the AVL, but I never forgot it and because of that I never put myself in that position 10 years later. Kicking a kid off of the team can deter others but I don't think it is the right thing to do, the first time.
I feel bad for these Derby kids, because it sounds like what they did was not all that bad. But with peer pressure on teenagers the way it is, the punishment has to be severe enough to force them to make a good choice.
Lets face it; whats more unbearable, having your son or daughter kicked off a sports team, or hearing about a terrible alcohol/drug related accident?
jeez, its not like they committed murder or selling crack, its getting blown out of proportion, this happens everywhere, the kids that do it know if they eff up, its on them, no excuses. the measurement of the punishment should depend on how severe it was that happend.
I think what most people are forgetting here is not only was a rule broken, but a law(s) were broken also. Yes, it is still illegal for anyone under the age of 21 to consume or possess alcohol. I don’t consider this offense too horrible by any means, but I don’t believe it should be taken lightly either. Rolling through a stop sign seems pretty harmless to most until someone is injured or killed because of it. I don’t know the specifics of this incident so I really don’t know what the proper punishment should be. But, all too often athletes tend to get a hand-slapping instead of a true punishment. Are athletes/celebrities held to a higher standard than others? In my opinion, yes. Are athletes/celebrities also given a more lenient punishment than others? Again, yes. How many times over the years have we seen athletes/celebrities that commit a minor offense, absolved of it, and then commit a more malicious crime later. The sporting ranks are full of stories like this on all levels.
People are looking at this whole situation as minor infraction on the surface, but what possible ramifications could have resulted from it? Well, there a multitude of possibilities. For one; the coach and others could have lost their jobs and the ability to provide for their families. All because of the actions of a teenager(s). Are you starting to see a bigger picture now? To me this is a pretty serious possibility that in the past has happened to others.
I know of one coach who caught one of his wresters drinking at the hotel during the state tournament and the coach had him arrested and then informed the parents. That young man wasn’t allowed to wrestle again. The young man was made an example of, and it was his choice to put himself in that situation. Who cares if they are state champion(s). It doesn’t matter. The lives of others could have been affected. And, I don’t believe that placing an apology on the web deserves a pat on the back for courageousness or bravery.
Now I don’t want to come off as being heartless and cruel. I don’t think these young people in question should be ostracized by wrestling community. But from what I have read on this forum a week of suspension is pretty lenient in my opinion, and possibly what I read was incorrect. Sports unlike education are privileges that we are not entitled to by law. I think the true character builder is not the sport itself, and if that was the case the sport itself failed in this instance. Character is built by overcoming adversity of life and not training for or competition in a sport. If ones future success is dependent upon success and achievement in athletics I would find another table to gamble at because the odds are not in your favor.
As for the Shawnee Mission policy it is absurd to even jokingly compare the death penalty to being kicked off a sports team. And, shoplifting is still a theft no matter how you look at it. As long as the kids are aware of the policy it it is a fair policy. There is absolutely too much gray area that is considered in these cases today.
Mr. Grapple, although I see what you are saying, I am thinking maybe you aren't seeing the bigger picture. It is understood by everyone that the drinking was wrong, but the fact that some person decided to publicly manifest the incident and totally blow things out of proportion(i.e. Nathan was running around naked?!?) is something completely unfair to Nathan and all the others involved.
Since some ignorant fellow proclaimed the incident to the world, and made them look like deliquents, Nathan had every single right to post an apology and show his point of view of the situatioon. Not only did Nathan have to overcome the adversity of making a poor decision, he had to deal with the unethical actions of others, and he has done so quite well in my oppinion.
Also, you assume the only way these wrestlers are being punished is by sitting out a week? I'll bet the disciplinary actions that parents hand down make this week suspension look like a treat. As you said, there is a lot more to life than sports, and from what I can see, these families are instilling this and many other important ideas into these children.
Grapple-
You say that athletes are given more lenient punishments then others. however thats not quite the case, in this example if Nathan Furches wasn't an athlete there would be virtually no punishment, not to mention the mistakes of non athletes are not publicized, so from that standpoint these kids(especially Furches) were punished more then non athletes..
second off all, your comparison about athletes/celebrities dealing with being absolved of one crime and then committing another one more malicious seems to be talking with professional athletes and celebrities. that is not what were dealing with here. we have high school kids between the ages of 15-18. making that comparison is apples and oranges.
also i have to wonder, what do you find admirable in a person? everyone makes mistakes in life whether they are of high character or not character. people of high character admit to those mistakes and apologize to those it negativly effected. i'm not saying that posting an apology online is an act of ultimate heroism, but if you don't respect a man for owning up to his mistakes and apologizing to those they effected i have to wonder about who do respect.
you also say there is to much grey considered in cases today. unfortunatly sir, life usually doesn't deal with matters of black and white.
yes, the kids were given a fairly lenient punishment. but whats wrong with that? a little grace, mercy, and a second chance is what all of us would want if we were in the situation.
Well said 007. I know that I am more inclined to do better when given 'a little grace, mercy and a second chance'. Lets save the crushing sledge hammer blows for those that have had multi-offenses. Thats my two cents worth anyway.
The fact of the matter is this. This should of never been posted on the internet. It should of been handled by the coaches, the Derby administration and the parents, period! It is time to let this subject go.
Thanks jojo, I agree with you. I think just about everyone has put their 2cts worth on this subject. It's time to let this post die!!!
Honesty, I don't think this is going to deter very many of these kids from drinking again in the future. Those who chose to drink that night, and those who choose to drink underage in the future, know that what they're doing is wrong and against the law. It's not as if now that they've been publicly reprimanded that they're going to realize it's anymore wrong than it was before. Furthermore, I have a hard time believing that the thought of missing one week of sports/activities is really going to instill fear in a kid who wants to drink at a party. Sure it's an inconvenience, but all in all it's not a big deal to most kids, as it shouldn't be. I mean really, how upset are you when you have to miss a tournament because of ringworm? Annoyed? Yes. Heartbroken? Hardly.
These policies are in place to serve as an absolute deterrant to kids drinking alcohol while they're in high school and I believe that the thought of missing an entire season is a little more daunting than missing a week of practice. As a result of that, I believe that less kids will end up drinking. And isn't that the point of these policies to begin with? To stop underage drinking?
Let's be frank. This suspension will not result in any drastic changes in the activities of these kids. Those who want to drink will, and those who don't won't. Hell, if this hadn't been publicized then I have a hard time believing any of these kids would have been too deeply affected at all. At Shawnee Mission East I know plenty of kids who make a great effort to not only abstain from drinking alcohol, but to distance themselves from it completely and that is because of the severity of the punishment. And as I already stated, that's the point of these policies in the first place.
Lancer I don't think you had very much fun in high school did you.
Well said, LancerM. You can have plenty of fun in high school without alcohol. The problem is with adults and parents who say everybody does it and it's just part of high school. Not everyone does it and it should not be part of high school. Adults who think otherwise are contributing to the problem. The more I have read the opinions on this subject, the more I am now thinking the Shawnee Mission policy is on track and is a serious deterent to alcohol and drug abuse.
well said Lancerlou lol, are you Mr Levastein.
This post should not die. It should move beyond the actions of some individuals on a single team to the larger subject of alcohol use by our teens. Why would you want to stop that discussion? Do you not see this as a problem to be dealt with? I question why some of the posters on this forum want to sweep this under the rug.
I’m not saying that these kids are hardened criminals. But, as I said in my earlier post. What could have been the effect on other people? What if the coach would have been fired for this? What if one of the kids would have been seriously injured? What if that kid that was seriously injured was your kid? Would an apology and week suspension from the activity suffice your need of fair treatment? I think you would look at this situation in a different light. I understand Nathan Furches wanting to set the record straight and I’m not aiming this at him. I’m referring to all those involved. We all know how rumors and gossip can distort the truth. I am only referring to the drinking and not the other stuff that was posted.
I have to agree with the Lancers. This is not a topic to let die. Maybe if we address it more closely and not turn our heads or slap hands we could improve things for the kids. Sometimes those who make poor choices become the sacrificial example that pave the road to better choices for others. I guess one might call this experience.
This post should not die. It should move beyond the actions of some individuals on a single team to the larger subject of alcohol use by our teens. Why would you want to stop that discussion? Do you not see this as a problem to be dealt with? I question why some of the posters on this forum want to sweep this under the rug.
My sugestion to you then is to start a thread about the problem itself and not tie any person/school to it. It's not right to keep thrashing the same kids & school over this forum. Your concerns if the punishment was enough is not your problem. Believe me, what the school & Coach did to the kids isn't as much as the parents did, so start another post about the problem and LET THIS POST DROP!!!!
Lancer I don't think you had very much fun in high school did you.
well said Lancerlou lol, are you Mr Levastein.
I like your technique wrasslinfan. You can't think of something worthwhile to counter the arguments, so you attack the people behind them. Very classy.
As a care provider for at risk kids, 4 of whom wrestle and the father of a 16 yr old wrestler as well, we have our own "agreed upon" death penalty in addition to the schools substance abuse policy.
No need to worry about any school sanction, it happens with my guys and they are done, no wiggle room or questions asked.
That is my choice for setting a tolerance level. I don't disagree with any of the handling of the Derby situation at all. I do think we have to be careful saying well "everyone does it," That is not true nor does it make anything more acceptable.
Come on Lancern I was just kidding don't get your panties in a bunch, but this is stupid what you think this is gonna keep one kid from drinking or anything else this is america and if some kids want to drink a beer or chew whatever thats there right yeah you can get in trouble for it but thats the choice you make and they don't need wanna be preachers like you speaking the word for everyone else so worry about your self and yours and all is good. So how you like that technique
Obviously there always needs to be a punishment to a violation of any team rule. But seriously who in there right mind believes that if you kick a kid off of a team for drinking alcohol. He/she is going to look in the mirror and go "wow I learned my lesson." No 99.9% of them will keep doing it
first of all i dont think giving these kids a second chance is sweeping the problem under the rug. second of all i dont believe having a stiff policy prevents kids from drinking. i really dont believe those derby kids said, "we'll only get suspended a week if we get caught so what the hell" i think they thought they simply werent going to be caught. as is true with every kid who drinks and parties. i know of a lot of kids who partied hard all through highschool and never got caught so theres some fairly good reason for that thinking. the only thing that makes a kid really believe they will get caught is actually getting caught. and if that getting caught means they are done, they have no incentive to change there actions. i dont believe policies keep kids from drinking. i think the vast majority of the kids who do not drink at all do so because of a personal moral decision, not some policy. also people are saying these kids got off lightly. and no, the school didnt hammer them as hard as it probably could have. but Nathan Furches did not get off lightly. hes been publicly called out and embarrassed, and while thats the price of being a stud sometimes, its still not right. most of our mistakes dont have that consequence. so whether or not he got off lightly is a matter of how you look at it. i personally believe through this ordeal this is the last time we will have an incident like this involving Nathan. and if the penalty changes behavior then whats wrong with it?
The bottom line is this, there is a problem across america with teens drinking. It did not just happening in Derby. Derby is just the stage that it's played on and we as adults must address the issues through education, love and reflection of our teen years. If one would take the time and visit some of the websites (myspace.com, facebook.com just to name a couple)that your kids visit it would be known how wide spread this problem is and the merit badge it it hold for students. Do not get me wrong, I'm not saying students should give into their peers and drink, I am saying that we as adult must address the drinking issues as a whole and hope of changing the negative images multi media (MTV, BET, Rap industry etc...)are providing our students. Finally, ask yourself this one question, How many times after an event you visited a bar/resturant for a sandwich and saw a family (with kids) ordering food and the parents are drinking a mixed drink or a beer? I know I'm guilty of this or when your kids watch Nick day and night and you took them to a live show and you saw dad order a beer for himself and coke for that kid, the message that the kid may have witiness was, I need a drink to enjoy myself. I guess it time to stop focus on Derby and place emphasis on the big picture HS drinking in general and what we are willing to do to address the issues?
The bottom line is this, there is a problem across america with teens drinking. It did not just happening in Derby. Derby is just the stage that it's played on and we as adults must address the issues through education, love and reflection of our teen years. ...I guess it time to stop focus on Derby and place emphasis on the big picture HS drinking in general and what we are willing to do to address the issues?
I was off this topic and the forum for several days. When I returned to the topic, I noticed that several people had posted the same thought that you expressed above that it is time to take the focus off the Derby situation and instead start a topic that would addrees the big picture in general on high school drinking. That is why today I decided to introduce another topic on Alcohol First Time Offense - Proper Punishment? Perhaps this is a topic where people who would like to continue to discuss this important subject in general could focus their ideas on this topic.
I agree with you and others that enough has probably been said about this particular Derby situation. I am sure that the Derby officials will handle the infractions fairly according to their policies that they had in place at the time of the infraction and I think that is proper.