Kansas Wrestling
Posted By: usawks1 Improving Kansas Wrestling! - 04/12/07 09:20 PM
I've been thinking a lot lately (I know, quit bragging!) and I guess I am ready to share a few thoughts with you!

First, I need to qualify my feelings! These are not just a "knee-jerk" reactions toward the lack of AA at this years NHSCA Senior Nationals. They are reflections on the whole of Kansas wrestling.

I feel we (Kansas Wrestling) do a pretty good job turning out elite wrestlers. Generally we produce wrestlers who place well in Fargo and those who go on to wrestle D1 or D2. Year in and year out Kansas is producing wrestlers that excel!

However, where I really think we (Kansas wrestling) need to do a better job at is; improving the skills of our average wrestlers. A few teams, STA-'07, Scott City-'04, have won State titles without crowning a Champion. These two were great examples of what I am talking about!

I believe this signifies a great team! These teams and their wrestlers are developed. They come from a good solid program. The parallel that I'm most reminded of ... is a good baseball farm system.

Our "farm-systems" are our kids clubs! I can think of very few solid high school programs that have done so, without that feeder program.

I’ve sat at the Kids State Tourney and seen 1,000’s of matches. I think, for the most part, that our kids clubs are doing an okay job. However, in my opinion, I have seen far too many kids that lack basic fundamentals and skills. Wrestlers too often shoot without a setup or shoot without moving their opponent. They shoot at a far leg with no chance of reaching it; they don’t control their positioning or exploit their opponents.

I feel it is the job or duty of our kids’ club coaches; to develop skills in their athletes. If they are our “farm-system” managers then development should be job 1. Skills are developed by perfect and proper drilling! I have seen far too many wrestlers, with 5 or 6 years of wrestling that lack basic skills.

Now, when kids filter through the conduit from feeder program to high school program, it doesn’t mean that their development is over. High school coaches should take them to that next level. Breaking bad habits that a wrestler has been taught or allowed to get away with should not be part of duties but it is.

Too often, HS coaches, have to re-teach basic skills or undo years of bad habits. This is where I think the problem lies!

The HS coach may not take the time to re-teach and undo; it is a frustrating activity that too often the HS coach will tire of. Instead the coach will put his efforts into his athletes that already have basic skills. (in fact, I might prefer a freshman or sophomore that has never wrestled be in my program rather than a 5-year kids club wrestler that has bad habits)

This creates problems that I have identified. HS coaches do a good job with their skilled athletes. Many HS coaches do a good job teaching skills to our “new” athletes. However, it is that experienced wrestler without skills or with bad habits that we need to do a better job with.

Perhaps we need to divide our group, for part of practice, by skill level. JV tournaments are a great tool. Personally, I am going to use them a lot more next year.

The solution … is for the high school coach to be an integral part of the feeder program. (approach this delicately in programs where this cooperation is not already in place) Wrestlers need to develop and being part of a system, will allow this to happen!

I hope I am expressing my feelings adequately! I guess I will stop now and wait for some reaction!
Posted By: Curtis Chenoweth Re: Improving Kansas Wrestling! - 04/12/07 10:15 PM
I agree with you 110%!
Posted By: usawks1 Re: Improving Kansas Wrestling! - 04/12/07 10:27 PM
... continuing, we need to increase our core strength! We have a pretty impressive upper body but our mid-section is lacking.

If we improve our "core" we in turn, add strength to the rest of our body. If our average wrestlers start pushing our upper end wrestlers we will improve!
Posted By: Coach Brown Re: Improving Kansas Wrestling! - 04/13/07 12:27 AM
Dearest Randy,

Knowing that you are one of souond mind and body, I have to also agree with you. Being both a Middle and High school head coach allows me to break some of those kids wrestlers with bad habits. Perhaps the worst in my opinion is finishing a double leg from the knees!

I feel that not only being banned from coaching Federation wrestling, but not being able to coach freestyle/greco till the end of May, hampers us tremendously. Although I do not need another practice to run(my wife and kids would never see me), I feel that we are lagging behind those states that do finish high at nationals. Kids in Missouri, N.J., N.Y., and some western states have an advantage with their farm style kids programs and young men/women who "want" to wrestle all the time.

But with true grit and determination we still finish in the top half of the 50 states continously and that says something about Kansas. Up here in the "great white north" that is Sabetha, most of my wrestlers are throwing hay, working in landscaping, or being a lifeguard. While the lifeguard may not figure as a "hard" summer job, swimming is great for core strength. The rest of them are moving large objects with the entire body or core and this is a great help. And being in good with your weights coach is a must.

As far as JV or less than developed wrestlers one needs an experienced and qualified assisstant coach. I am lucky to have Aaron Georg as mine and he does a great job with those developing young men. I made sure, when we were both new, that he was on board with the program I wanted to run an I requested his input. Too many times the assisstant coach is left in the wings, I try to ask Aaron for his advice daily. When I started wrestling at Pratt my sophmore year a young assisstnat coach named Kipp Chambers took me under his wing, he started me out and nurtured me as an athlete. I am in debt to him and Coach Bryan Pixler forever, they showed me the light that led me away from the "pumpkin poundin".

Once again Randy you bring up a great point and it is nice to see someone besides me and Chenoweth are still thinking about wrestling. I will be in KC for ten days this summer and I'll give ya a call.

By the way-no cheese for the whine anymore-turns out I have a 1 inch tear in my quad above my knee-not a blown out knee. While it will take longer to heal, 2-3 months, I will not need surgery. As Medreno would say "ki,ki,ki,ki" it made my day.

Coach Brown
Posted By: usawks1 Re: Improving Kansas Wrestling! - 04/13/07 02:09 AM
Jason ... glad to hear the injury will heal on its own!
Posted By: parkwayred Re: Improving Kansas Wrestling! - 04/13/07 11:56 AM
Randy good post but you forgot a couple of things… Manhattan won a title with no champs in 2004! OK I just had to pull a Richard. ;\)

The other thing is you have to deal with the fact that some of these clubs have straight up volunteers that may have never wrestled in their lives and are expected to teach fundamentals! If the coaching staff doesn’t know a low level from a high crotch then nothing will ever get better. I’m not being critical of these people for the fact they just need help and guidance. I have seen it many times that you have enthusiastic dads with unreal expectations because they have never been instructed on how to teach proper technique! They don’t know it and wouldn’t even know where to start unless they are as fortante as the some clubs that you have mentioned.

First thing is that HS coaches need to embrace their youth clubs, this is their future! They should be the ones that develop a plan and vision for youth clubs to follow nurture a relationship with these people.

Secondly the state body needs to a better job of educating coaches on fundamentals, we spend a lot of time preparing them for the political side of the business… No offense Randy. But nothing to educate them on the proper technique. How many 6 year olds have you seen that have a killer head lock or a double chicken wing? How many times does this work at the HS level or higher? You need to teach a half a dozen things and do them inside, outside and in your sleep. But the simple things are your money game if they are done correctly! They may not be real flashy but this stuff works, ask any college wrestler! You can drive a Cadillac but the VW will still get you to dance!

I would recommend that the State Body should sponsor Technique clinics around the state prior to the start of the season just like Randy does his game! Get Welton, Woodford, Kirk Baker, Akin, Roberson, Johnson, Ludke. Pay these guys to do a road show and instruct these new coaches on what works and what doesn’t! Get everyone on the same page with the basics. The KWCA does this kind of thing with their event… I think it should be done at the Kid’s level too.
Posted By: usawks1 Re: Improving Kansas Wrestling! - 04/13/07 02:24 PM
Red ... absolutely no offense taken!

One of the reasons for revealing my thoughts was to spawn this type of discussion. As a coaches education director that has certified tons of "Dad - Coaches" this is a genuine concern for me. We are producing far too many kids without basic skills or that have developed bad habits!

Now to bring the discussion back toward the topic a bit ... it is the High School coaches job to help reverse this trend. It is necessary for the success of wrestling in our state. I really am beginning to understand how frustrating it can be, yet we have to do it!

HS coaches, if they have a feeder program, have got to be involved at the developmental level. We have to encourage our HS wrestlers to help with kids practice. We have to have an open pipeline and channels of communication. We have to establish a skill set and terminology that they will use for years.
Posted By: Aaron Sweazy Re: Improving Kansas Wrestling! - 04/13/07 03:24 PM
 Originally Posted By: parkwayred
Randy good post but you forgot a couple of things… Manhattan won a title with no champs in 2004! OK I just had to pull a Richard. ;\)


I believe Abilene in 1998 had no Champs either and won it if I'm not mistaken...that was a pretty good team that year too.

Pulling a Richard?! Is that allowed in public?!

Seriously though, I think too often in smaller programs most of the "non elite" guys are falling to the backdrop of the overall picture. You lose a starter to a knee tweak or something and then have a backup you never suspected to crack the lineup and you are frantically running around pushing him to the brink that the sport is not fun anymore. I wouldn't mind seeing Novice wrestling camps in Kansas for low prices for those breaking into the sport (especially those from 6th grade on that are a few years behind the die hard kid's level wrestlers.
Posted By: Coach Brown Re: Improving Kansas Wrestling! - 04/13/07 05:38 PM
Speaking of the State team from MHS in 2004, I want to get my ring Red...any idea how I can get my ring for being a coach on that team?
Just wondering, never thought about it till Kale Mann called me an idiot for not getting one on the plane ride home from VIrginia. Let me know who to contact, I assume either Woody or Tony but I am unsure.

Thanks
Jason
Posted By: Shane Koranda Re: Improving Kansas Wrestling! - 04/13/07 06:09 PM
From this official's perspective:

I've been around wrestling for 30 years now: wrestled through Federation (Dennis Bowersok in Lyons), HS (Murray Anderson at Colby) and coached at the asst. and head level at MS & HS, now completed my 11th year officiating and the biggest thing I see as a ref is the low percentage of pins with the basic 1/2 nelson. More and more kids see the good wrestlers using advanced moves and they try to run a marthon before they can crawl!

Someone, somewhere needs to stress the fundamentals and make the kids learn them. Even basic moves are carried out wrong: sitting on your butt with a headlock, knees on the mat or not "T"ed out with a half, trying to "finish" a single or a double from your knee(s), etc.

Those programs that are successful either have fundamentally sound feeder programs (federation or MS) and/or have those coaches that stress the basics! I agree with red when he said "You can drive a Cadillac but the VW will still get you to dance!" I've sat there many a times watching a match thinking, "You're wasting time and energy trying to run this or that and the half's just screaming to be thrown!!!" or "There's the armbar/wing, Ride the ankle, You have to break them down before throwing that" etc.

Our kids need to learn how to crawl, then walk and if they start winning championships, jog. But too many of them are worried about being flashy when the "good ol'" will get the job done.
Posted By: shawnbudke Re: Improving Kansas Wrestling! - 04/13/07 07:19 PM
I agree that the club teams need to work very closely with the high school coaches. I am not a high school coach but I think it would be very frustrating given the rules imposed on them that do not allow them to work with their high school kids after the season is over. With that said, the following is an idea of how we try to work with the high school coaches in the Leavenworth area....

As the head coach for the club, my coaching staff and I make a coaches book for the year. We identify the technique we want to focus on and break it out by age/experience level. We then develop the type of practices we want to conduct and then create a detailed daily practice schedule that helps keep us focused during the season.

The first step in this is that we go and talk with the high school coaches and get their input on the kind of technique they want the kids to learn. We tell them what we are seeing in the kids club and they tell us what they are seeing at the high school level.

Once we get that we develop the plan. Once we get the book done we give it to the high school coaches and ask them to review it and provide feedback. We will then incorporate their input into our practice plans.

This system definately is not perfect but it seems to at least allow us to teach the basics of what the high school coaches want and to keep them in the loop without getting anyone in trouble.

Coach Schmidt and Coach Averill are very good at providing their input and support to our club. We greatly appreciate their efforts and help.

Shawn Budke
Leavenworth County Spartans
Posted By: Andy Hurla Re: Improving Kansas Wrestling! - 04/13/07 07:23 PM
Removing the bad habits is vital. Many really good wrestlers are getting away with sloppy execution because they are facing competition that isn't that tough. When they start having tough matches every time they step on the mat(college) it is so frustrating when their "bread and butter" moves aren't going anywhere. Take my word for it.

Footwork, hand control, and head position are the small basics that really should be stressed.
Jumping rope is a very important basic workout that has recently helped me control my steps so I don't get off balance when I'm trying to create an angle, and I have more control of my penetration step, especially when shooting through the man (which most high schoolers aren't doing!)
Those are my thoughts from personal experience. I think the main goal should be making the transition from high school to college as smooth as possible, and remove the necessity to go backwards for some kids in order to breadk those bad habits.
Posted By: usawks1 Re: Improving Kansas Wrestling! - 04/13/07 07:27 PM
... and in 80% of your matches, you can be competitive with any old technique you choose to use. Kids make up for a lack of technique by being athletic or being a brawler!

I'm reminded by the saying, hard work can beat technique if technique doesn't work hard!

However, a kids goal is seldom to be an average wrestler. If you want to beat the top 20% you have to rely of technique. Now if you've grappled for 10 years without ever learning how to wrestle, you will be behind the 8-ball.
Posted By: parkwayred Re: Improving Kansas Wrestling! - 04/13/07 08:04 PM
 Originally Posted By: Andy Hurla

Footwork, hand control, and head position are the small basics that really should be stressed.
Amen Brother! one other thing... physicality with a capital PH! And this is from a guy that was decient kids wrestler, and excelent High schooler and will make a great college type. Why? because he has listened to his "knowlagble" coaches over the years! he has made full circle! back to the basics!
Posted By: TRAVIUS.com Re: Improving Kansas Wrestling! - 04/14/07 03:30 AM
Lets create a list of what we think are the fundamentals that ever youth wrestler MUST know and understand. Its easy to say youth coaches are not preparing their wrestlers for the next level but like list out some solutions. I like how Andy listed out 3 things he thinks are important... lets hear from some others.

I myself try to focus on positioning. I don't teach my youth wrestlers quick fix moves not to say moves like the twister are not good moves to use but in my opinion that is more of a quick fix for most younger wrestlers. I tend to spend more time on foot work them maybe i should however I think the ability to move your opponent into a position where u can attack and creating angles is something that is seldom seen in youth wrestling.
Posted By: Husker Fan Re: Improving Kansas Wrestling! - 04/14/07 10:19 AM
 Originally Posted By: shawnbudke
....Once we get that we develop the plan. Once we get the book done we give it to the high school coaches and ask them to review it and provide feedback. We will then incorporate their input into our practice plans.

This system definately is not perfect but it seems to at least allow us to teach the basics of what the high school coaches want and to keep them in the loop without getting anyone in trouble.....

Shawn Budke
Leavenworth County Spartans




It may not be perfect but it has got to be pretty close to it. That is a very impressive game plan.
Posted By: Husker Fan Re: Improving Kansas Wrestling! - 04/14/07 10:43 AM
 Originally Posted By: parkwayred
 Originally Posted By: Andy Hurla

Footwork, hand control, and head position are the small basics that really should be stressed.
Amen Brother! one other thing... physicality with a capital PH! And this is from a guy that was decient kids wrestler, and excelent High schooler and will make a great college type. Why? because he has listened to his "knowlagble" coaches over the years! he has made full circle! back to the basics!


Another reason why I believe Andy Hurla will be a very good college wrestler is that he loves wrestling and has a burning desire to succeed in wrestling. He never gives up and works hard every year to improve. Andy reminds me of the stories I have read about this year's Master golf champion from Cedar Rapids Iowa. He did not even make the starting golf team his freshman year at Drake. As I recall it said that he stayed with it until he was the fifth player as a senior at Drake. From this humble golf beginning he decides to launch a pro golf career. He starts out on several of the mini pro golf tours for several years and keeps plugging away at it. He only made about $7,000 in his first year on one of these mini tours but he said he kept getting a little better each year. He worked his way up to the Nike tour when he was about 29 years old and set a record for earnings of about $500,000. The next year he made the PGA tour won one tournament and over a million dollars in earnings. This year he wins the Masters. It is incredible story of humble beginnings in a sport but working hard and never giving up on the sport that he loved. I see Andy Hurla as that type of wrestler at all levels (kids, high school and now college). I know he has been an inspiration to a lot of young men in that Aquinas wrestling room.
Posted By: FWC Re: Improving Kansas Wrestling! - 04/16/07 04:43 AM
As a kid's club coach this is a very frustrating topic. Our high school coach said from the beginning that he wanted to do away with our kid's club. That has made cooperation very difficult. In response, our club asked our HS coach to be on our board of directors to provide us with guidance. He came to meetings the first year and then was a no show. I went to his summer camps when he used to put them on. I took notes and used those notes to change the technique we taught in our club. He has not had a summer camp in years. Each year I ask our HS coach for advice on technique. I don't get any feedback. This year I took the time to write down all of the technique/moves that are taught in our club with a brief description and teaching points by each move/technique. I gave one to each of my assistant coaches and the HS coach. I asked the HS coach to make comments and/or suggestions. I got ZERO back. I have tried to get high schoolers to help with the kids club but cannot get any volunteers. I asked the HS coach to make a video of what he wanted taught at the kid's level. I wanted to use the video to teach our volunteer kid's coaches some technique. Out of the 6 or so assistant coaches I have had in the past 10 years only 2 have had wrestling experience. When you are trying to teach young kids to wrestle, safety dictates that you have an adult closely supervising each group. I rarely have an experienced adult available. I spend my time moving from group to group correcting the coaches as often as the kids. Shock and disbelief is the only way I can describe how I felt when our HS team fielded only 4 wrestlers at our league meet this year. I agree whole heartedly that high school programs and kid's clubs must work together, but cooperation is a two way street. I don't know what else to do. I feel like I'm banging my head up against a wall. The kid's club has a life of it's own and is here to stay with or without me or the high school coach. The only practical solution is to work to improve the club and hence improve our high school program.
Posted By: shawnbudke Re: Improving Kansas Wrestling! - 04/16/07 01:33 PM
Mr. Nowak,

Thank you.

TRAVIUS,

Great idea on listing some of the basics. I absolutely agree with Andy Hurla's 3. I submit the following as ideas and would appreciate thoughts/feedback....

Feet Defense:
1. Good Sprawl, control the head, cross face (I see too many younger kids immediately reaching over and going for ankles and funk type moves. These moves work but I see too many young kids that do this instead of the good solid basics)

Bottom:
1. Good stand up, short sit, switch. IMO if young kids can get good at these then everything else will follow.

Top:
1. Basic pinning combinations (half, wrist control, arm bars).

Just my two cents.

Shawn Budke
Posted By: 24/7 Re: Improving Kansas Wrestling! - 04/16/07 04:53 PM
FWC-there is no wonder you HS teams stink, from the way you paint the picture. You need to go to the Athletic director for the district, find a board member that will listen or go to the superintendent. Anything to shake this guy up or get him removed as HS coach. Or you can move, but it doesn't sound like it's going to be any different as long as your current HS coach is at the helm.

24/7
Posted By: wrestle007 Re: Improving Kansas Wrestling! - 04/16/07 11:16 PM
it seems to me the overall style in kansas is not as aggressive from the neutral position as other states. in big matches the best wrestler on his feet wins almost every time, because you get to a level where its very hard to ride anybody and almost no one gets turned.
i agree with everyone that kids need to have a good set of fundamentals and often they get away without that early on and it eventually catches up.
Posted By: usawks1 Re: Improving Kansas Wrestling! - 04/17/07 06:39 PM
If you score the first takedown, you will win that match, 85% of the time!
Posted By: Cokeley Re: Improving Kansas Wrestling! - 04/18/07 05:57 AM
The predominant situation throughout the state is that coaches don't want to spend the extra time outside of the season to make a significant impact. There are definitely exceptions and we all know who they are. They are the same coaches who help kids regardless of the stupid KSHSAA restrictions. If all coaches would, in mass, stand up and push back by helping with youth programs and attending events outside of the high school season what choice would the KSHSAA have? Are they going to suspend a major percentage of the coaches and/or programs? Are AD's all over the state going to fire their wrestling coaches because they worked too hard to improve their wrestler's abilities? I have always beleieved these rules are in place because the majority of coaches and AD's do not want to invest additional time and resources to make their communitie's programs better (not just in wrestling but other sports as well.)

What urks me even more than the KSHSAA restrictions are the schools that will not give access to their wrestling rooms or they charge excessively high fees to clubs to use the facilities and charge the clubs rent for use during a fund raising tournaments. Didn't our tax dollars build these facilities? Don't our tax dollars pay the utilities, custodians, and maintenance?

Each year more obstacles confront our sport and I think it is time we spend some of the USA funds to lobby for less restrictive rules and more opportunities. Why shouldn't our wrestlers be allowed to travel more than 400 miles to compete against the best in the country? Why can't middle school wrestlers compete in USA tournaments if their team is not competing that weekend? What is wrong with wrestling 60 or 70 matches during a high school wrestling season? So what if a coach somewhere in the state wants to devote everything to make his team the best of the best by coaching practices year round, taking kids all over, and coaching them in independent tournaments.

Improvement is needed but I don't know if the focus should be at the kids level. For example:
I know a program where the combined varsity records for individuals was something like 25-125. I invited this coach, his staff, and the middle school coaching staff to attend practices conducted by Tony Purler and Eric Akin. They never did. I invited these same coaches to the Fall Brawl to see what other kids were doing. None of them showed up. The barn is open to anyone but I have seen only a handfull of HS coaches show up.

I agree that all of us can learn and become better coaches but I don't think I am going to buy into the kids programs are hurting the high school fundamentals until I see high school coaches GIVING their time like the dads and volunteer kids coaches. The kids programs are the farm systems. The middle school programs are the farm systems. The JV programs are the farm systems. Summer programs are the farm systems. We need more kids in all of these programs. We need more coaching, more facilities, more opportunities and more funds to fuel all of these areas.
Posted By: Husker Fan Re: Improving Kansas Wrestling! - 04/18/07 09:50 AM
I think a lot of our better athletes in Kansas do not even come out for wrestling. I see it in football and now I am seeing it in rugby. Most of these athletes are heavier athletes but I have also seen some real good ligher athletes in cross country, track and basketball and many of these lighter kids would be very good wrestlers too.

We really do not attract enough of the heavier football athletes. I started the topic about whether we need more weight classes for the heavier wrestlers (those wrestlers over 160)in reaction to comments I saw in the topic about the greatest heavyweight in Kansas history. A couple of posters commented that the quality of our heavyweight class is down this year. I had just noticed at a couple of my son's meets that two senior football players who had signed with Division I schools were attending our meets. These two guys are great athletes and would have been great heavyweight wrestlers. I really feel that they would have had my sophomore son on the JV for another year if they had been out for wrestling. The thing is our football team is loaded with good athletes from 160 up who could be very good wrestlers. I saw a very good sophomore 180 pound linebacker playing rugby last Saturday on the Aquinas team. This guy is a very physical athletic rugby player and would be a great wrestler. I told him so and I encouraged him to go out next year. He said he might since he did not make the sophomore basketball team this year. I guess he had a decent 3 point shot but it is just a shame he did not start wrestling in grade school because he would have been a terror on the mat.

I believe we can start getting more of these heavier athletes by adding weight classes for the heavier wrestlers. I believe this would help getting football coaches more supportive of having their players wrestle in the winter months. I have advocated in the other topic changing weight classes to have the middle weight class change from 140 to 150 and for the weight classes change at that point to 158, 167, 178, 190, 210, 230 and 285 from our current system of 160, 171, 189, 215 and 285. I am going to petition the national governing body for this. I think Kansas could take a lead though by adding one weight class right now for heavier wrestlers. Texas has done that by adding a 180 pound division. If Kansas were to add one division, I would suggest it drop 189 to 185 and add a 200 pound division. If that was done I think 215 could be bumped up to 225 or 230. Kids are getting taller and heavier. Strength training is being done earlier and methods have improved. I am convinced the 50% median weight is significantly higher today than it was when high school's current wrestling weight classes were established. Eventually high school wrestling needs to recognize this increased size in high school students. Wrestling will be losing more good athletes over 160, if it does not make some changes in these high school weight classes. Kansas should take the lead in making this happen by adding one class for heavier wrestlers now.

I think in our Wyandotte and Johnson County area more kids lighter and heavier would give wrestling a try if we had more middle school wrestling. CYO wrestling would probably be a difficult thing to start in Wyandotte and Johnson County but that would be helpful too in getting more kids introduced to the sport in Kansas.
Posted By: TRAVIUS.com Re: Improving Kansas Wrestling! - 04/18/07 10:40 AM
Will, I agree with a lot of points u made. However, I do believe that there are some dynamic kids club wrestlers who move on to high school and never even place at state. As incredibly hard of a tournament high school state is if you walk into high school with 5 years under of wrestling on your resume than placing in the top 6 out of 16 isn’t such a hard thing.

I do believe that a lot of club coaches do a few things wrong. Keep in mind I don’t go around into everyone’s practice room to rate or judge them.

1) Club coaches teach too many moves. Yeah I know this sounds funny but I was very guilty of this my first few years as well. Honestly, in wrestling at the higher levels will u be able to perform the 350 wrestling maneuvers and techniques u learned in the 3 month kids club season?

2) Club coaches teach to win.
I had a kid in my club who came to my club from another club. He was real good at this move called the twister because he was naturally strong however he lacked any other moves. He wouldn’t shoot and didn’t know any top positions moves etc... I could NOT un-teach this move because the kid won matches with it but he always fell one match short or qualifying for state.

3) Too much pressure to win. Its simple when a kid comes off the mat it should be hard to tell if he/she was the winner or the loser. Coaches and parents focusing their ambitions on kids who ultimately just want to wrestle. After a kids win..."Good Job John way to work hard in the match. In the second period you had an opportunity to get the cradle but it slipped out because you didn’t have the arm. We will work on that in practice. I am proud of you." After they lose..."Way to work John, you continued to fight the entire match. Here are some things we need to work on in practice this week. Keep your head up and we will get them next time." There is no reason to wrestle 70 matches a year if u doesn’t learn anything from any of them. The rest of this is continued in (4)



4) The 6 & Under to High School Pyramid

If you really want high school programs to be better than let’s see what we can do about this.

6 & Under 1,857
7 & 8 1,609
9 & 10 1,428
11 & 12 1,241
13 & 14 1,135
15 & 16 651

If u don’t think the pressure to win from coaches and parents are burning kids out of EVERY SPORT then u are hiding under the pillow. Kids almost ALWAYS reflect the attitudes of the coaches and parents around them.

I coach wrestling for one reason only… To provide an experience. One of my kids went to the middle school duals and from his words and the many on the talk forum that the experience was so positive that win or lose the kids would want to come back for more.

One of my greatest high school experiences was being a member of the Schlalge marching band. It was when the band was first starting to gain it reputation. We started traveling to St.Louis MO, Indianapolis IN, Nashville TN, Houston TX and many other places like Disney Land, and Los Angeles. Only about 40% of the band would go off to college and play but ALL of them have the experience of being in the band that we will remember forever.

Allow your wrestlers to have the experience and win or lose they will come back for more. Wrestling is NOT fun. It’s hard, challenging, mentally and physically tough. But the experience is very enjoyable if the School/Club, parents, and coaches all have the right attitude about winning.



P.S. I love to use Marcus Walker as an example. Marcus started wrestling when he was 10. He did NOT qualify for kids state until his 9th grade year and didnt qualify for high school state until his 10th grade year. Marcus used to be very ROUND kid should I say. He was 4'11 120lbs all baby fat. Marcus was NOT a natural athlete and he only wrestled because I knew his older brother. Through his younger days of wrestling Marcus would win 10 out of 40 matches and placed 3rd or 4th at some tournaments. He had such a great attitude about wrestling along with the coaches and his mom that he always looked forward to wrestling. Wrestling was his sport and something he had pride in.



Point is you never know how kids are going to turn out. Keep working with them, there are plenty of diamonds in the rough. Keep winning and losing in prospective and provide them a life long experience. Like Randy said the are a lot of good wrestlers in Kansas but there is such a large gap between the the great wrestlers and the others, a gap that if we use our CURRENT resources we should have quality kids from top to bottom (with of course those few outstanding kids).

I believe if this is done there will be a lot more Marcus' moving from the lower tier to the high tier. If didn't have the proper mix of good supportive parents, coaching, and wrestling environment its very possible he would have quit well before getting his 115 high school victories and breaking the school record in takedowns 3 years in a row.
Posted By: TRAVIUS.com Re: Improving Kansas Wrestling! - 04/18/07 11:53 AM
 Originally Posted By: Husker Fan
I think in our Wyandotte and Johnson County area more kids lighter and heavier would give wrestling a try if we had more middle school wrestling. CYO wrestling would probably be a difficult thing to start in Wyandotte and Johnson County but that would be helpful too in getting more kids introduced to the sport in Kansas.


I can only speak from my experience. All 9 middle school in KCKPS have school wrestling. I coach wrestling at Coronado Middle School. It is maybe the greatest experience to have a team full of kids who have never wrestled or seen wrestling before but know that because they go to Coronado they have a tradition of uphold and they got to wrestle.

I coach at the smallest middle school in KCK. Only 7th and 8th graders can wrestle and each grade has about 110 students total. On an average year I will get 40 kids out for wrestling and on great years 50 kids. In the past 8 year the school has a Dual record of 55-9. I actually think starting kids to wrestling around the 5th-6th grade is a great time to get them. To some degree at that point in time wrestling could be something they want to do as opposed to being forced to wrestle at age 4-5-6.

There have been years where we practiced in the cafeteria and used two full mats or more for practice. Kids especially at the middle school age naturally love to wrestle.

There are two problems with wrestling in KCK (I dont personally like to use the terms Johnson County or Wyandotte County but thats a whole other topic).

1) Not enough competent middle School coaches. Kids can always tell if u dont know what u are talkin about. they will find that one little crack in your scheme to convince them that your a wrestling genius when you really dont know how to tie your wrestling shoes.

2) Not enough Kids Club. I would be wrong but there are only 3 kids clubs that practice in KCK WYCO (N 59th Street) and Piper (N 110th Street) and Turner (S 55th Street) << Bonner Spring is also in the county on approx. 136th Street>> there 4 clubs service a population of 158,000 people.

There are 4 clubs in the county and 4 school districts.

Turner - Turner
WYCO - KCK
Piper - Piper
Bonner Springs - Bonner Spring


As much as i love coaching kids. I have been coaching at the high school level for 3 years now. Because of this it is very hard for me to do very much at all with the WYCO program (notice you dont see us at any tournaments anymore). So take us out the loop and there are no true full time clubs in KCK. So our high school wrestling programs are full of kids with no prior wreslting experience.

Look at this years Schlagle team. Can you point out the kids with kids club experience... Marcus Walker state runner-up, Freddie Drone SQ and 5A Topeka West Regional Wrestler of the year, and Elijah Ming SQ. If you look at Harmon, Turner, Piper (Derrick Weller for example), and Bonner they are all similar in the fact that they are lead by quality wrestlers with club experience and we don't have enough opportunities in KCK.


<< ADVERTISEMENT >>
If anyone want to help coach or become a head coach at the WYCO Club let me know we actually have a very good wrestling field house with a new weight room that when u walk inside you say WOW!!!
<< END OF ADVERTISEMENT >>

I had more to say but I'm tired of typing...
Posted By: usawks1 Re: Improving Kansas Wrestling! - 04/19/07 02:11 AM
Excellent posts by Travius!!

... and actually, by all!

But a topic I've mentioned and was expand on by Travius is coaches allowing wrestlers to get away with sloppy technique.

Technique is kind of a strange animal, the proper way to shoot a double leg may be open to debate. Whether you take an inside or outside penetration on ones hi-crotch can be argued! But I feel there are certain fundamentals that are absolute.

Two that come to mind are: shooting without a setup and shooting a far leg!

Others might be: finishing on your knees, shooting straight in to your opponent, and tying up ear-to-ear.

If the HS coach makes a choice not to be involved ... then a kids club is really hampered.

Travius mentioned, a "lack of qualified coaches!" I think Reds' suggestion is a good one! Maybe our Bronze clinics need to pay more attention to technique!

Great discussion ... keep your thoughts coming!
Posted By: TRAVIUS.com Re: Improving Kansas Wrestling! - 04/19/07 11:40 AM
I still would like to see a list of essential wrestling techniques that we would expect a kid to know before high school. I know if a kids know the basics teaching all the other techniques are so much easier.
Posted By: Shelstin Re: Improving Kansas Wrestling! - 04/19/07 01:21 PM
I don't like the fact that some of you think that the HS coaches are lazy if they don't cheat, according to KSHSAA guidelines. I am offended by that. In most districts coaches are fired if they knowingly violate KSHSAA's rules and regulations. If they unknowingly violate KSHSAA policy, they are reprimanded for not understanding the regulations. The school is required to report the violation, and the school is sometimes written up as well. I am beginning to find this thread upsetting....and I say that in a very politically correct way.
Posted By: sportsfan02 Re: Improving Kansas Wrestling! - 04/19/07 01:52 PM
I don't blame you one bit for being offended. As a fan, I am offended for the coaches by such a suggestion.
Posted By: jeffroberts Re: Improving Kansas Wrestling! - 04/19/07 02:02 PM
Shelstin- I don't think the coaches are lazy, I think they are hamstrung by KSHAA. My son and I have practiced in Missouri this year and have watched what the Missouri high school coaches are allowed to do compared to Kansas coaches. I really wish we could make the changes in KSHAA policy to allow high school coaches the opportunity to work with their kids more. This is somthing that would have to be a grass roots movement. There was some discussion of changing this when a bill in one of the Kansas Houses last year. I don't know if the bill made it to a vote though.
Posted By: TRAVIUS.com Re: Improving Kansas Wrestling! - 04/19/07 02:34 PM
Yeah, but like i said in my previous post, there are plenty of way to improve wrestling within the KSHSAA guideline. I find it a waste of energy to try to fight them, however maybe we should provide assistance to the kids club coaches. You cant tell me that all the high school coaches are highly qualified and all the kids club coaches are under qualified.

Just like teachers have in-services maybe we can make a way to train coaches who want to advance their skills. There is so much to coaching and it is much more than just teaching wrestling and the learning curve can take years. If we want to improve wrestling in KS maybe we should do what we can to lower the learning curve.

I found out that a lot of coaches do not like to share information to younger coaches. They are so competitive that maybe if they help out a neighboring school or club they might become better because of it... (and maybe so)
Posted By: klint deere Re: Improving Kansas Wrestling! - 04/19/07 04:38 PM
Good posts on this topic guys.

I had my eyes opened when I moved out of Kansas to Nebraska 9 yrs ago. In Omaha, we joined KWAA wrestling. There they had an extremely organized club program with a novice and varsity program, did duals, lots of hands on work with their coaches and had an excellent relationship with Brad Hildebrandt of Omaha Skutt who ran practices a few times a month. It was an awesome situation and a lot of our club kids are going on to be part of the Skutt dynasty up there. 8 yrs and counting i believe. Also there, emphasis was starting to be placed on freestyle and greco, no long kids state series there, right in to freestyle and greco. It gave us a full month over Kansas at that time. Numbers problems are similar in the participation in the freestyle and greco seasons but i think that is due to population issues for the most part.

A subsequent move to Southern California exposed us to even more emphasis to the freestyle and greco--which was wrestled during the kids season in a blended style as a opposed to folkstyle. High School coaches there in San Diego county had been encouraging the olympic styles and skills to be taught at the younger level. They felt that this made for better overall wrestlers. The heavy olympic style influence stemmed directly from the Olympic Training Center in Chula Vista, which drew a lot of talented international coaches and wrestlers to the area.
There was a great deal of sharing of technique and coaching styles and it bled over in to the community.

I love Kansas Wrestling and still say we have some of the best wrestling in the nation. I do think we are at times very short sighted in promoting the sport, keeping parents and kids excited and thinking outside of the box on how we do things.
Posted By: Coach Brown Re: Improving Kansas Wrestling! - 04/20/07 01:59 AM
Ok so back to the original intent of this post, and I am sorry if anyone thought that I am blaming KSHSAA. Everyone has rules they have to live by, and ours are not as strict as some-at least we don't have the weigh-in and body fat testing of other states!

I would like to see a list of basic moves that ALL youth wrestlers should know. I started wrestling late in life and now that I have two little boys I want to know what I should teach them. I know the moves I want my Middle and High School kids to be able to do. We follow the K.I.S. method(keep it simple).

Neutral:STANCE-Close the Gap-Lead with the Head
Outside-step double
Outside-step single
Duck Under
High-C to a Dbl

Set-ups:
Pop/Chop
Drag

Bottom:Toes-tucked, Arched Back, Head-up
Stand Ups
Switches
Sit-out series

Top:Control, Western Hook, Split ride
Spiral
bar and half
chiken wing series
tilts

CONDTION-CONDTION-CONDTION-and then life some weights!

Just some thoughts, I know some coaches do not like to share but I am not giving up any secrets that anyone doesn't already know. And yes I know I did not address defense or other facets of the crazy sport we all love.

Coach Brown
Posted By: TRAVIUS.com Re: Improving Kansas Wrestling! - 04/20/07 06:12 AM
This is what I like...

Takedowns... takedowns ... takedowns

Its more of a coaches philosophy thing but if u can take an oponent down pretty easy and get a 2-0 lead then way not get a 6-2 lead with three takedowns in the first period. (of course this isnt gonna work for every opponent.)

I love takedowns where u finish to the outside. Learning the Peak out technique is a good way to help finish.

Top.. control hips there are lots of drill to help stay back on the hips. I teach to stay on your toes and hips even or above your opponents on most moves.

I'm not always a fan of picking bottom when we receive choice in a period. There are so many more moves to do on top then bottom.
Posted By: Coach Brown Re: Improving Kansas Wrestling! - 04/20/07 03:53 PM
I enjoy picking neutral in he third...mentally I believe it breaks an opponent. Thats why I say conditon-conditon-conditon. Also never walk back to the circle. Just a few more nuggets, and I agree on your feet is where it is at!
Coach Brown
Posted By: parkwayred Re: Improving Kansas Wrestling! - 04/20/07 05:28 PM
You stole my BOOK Jason... you must have listened in class! I tend to disagree with bottom position... Stand up get away. Score on your feet! Two many people tend not to create enough distance on sit out's or switches. Always fight the hands! You control the hands you control your opponent! If you can do these things properly then the game is pretty simple and you will have a lot of success from six to sixty!
Posted By: Nedly Re: Improving Kansas Wrestling! - 04/20/07 11:26 PM
But red who taught you?
Posted By: wrestle007 Re: Improving Kansas Wrestling! - 04/21/07 03:12 AM
i tend to agree with not picking bottom if its not a real high level match. however, once you get deep into big tournaments and if you know your tough to turn, you need to go down and try to get 1. sometimes points are hard to come by.
Posted By: parkwayred Re: Improving Kansas Wrestling! - 04/21/07 09:32 AM
Mrs. Miller!!!!!
Posted By: Coach Brown Re: Improving Kansas Wrestling! - 04/22/07 05:13 AM
Red,

I might have been around for a few of the same lessons you were and studied from the same BOOK.

Altough Mrs. Miller still claims she is taller than me, I disagree.

Back to the subject of bottom postion, the score becomes the most important reason, even if it is tied I think neutral is the best choice. Unless the flip situation does not give you the option to defer. The a good stand-up is a must and creat some space.

Coach Brown
Posted By: GregMann Re: Improving Kansas Wrestling! - 04/22/07 06:56 PM
"If all coaches would, in mass, stand up and push back by helping with youth programs and attending events outside of the high school season what choice would the KSHSAA have? Are they going to suspend a major percentage of the coaches and/or programs?" Cokeley

"If all wrestlers who do not want to follow school attendance rules set by their school administration would, in mass, stand up and skip school but still attend practice, what choice would the school have? Are they going to suspend a major percentage of the athletes and/or their teams?"

Sounds ridiculous, doesn't it Cokeley? Fortunately, we, or most of us, anyway, still believe rules, while limiting what we WANT to do, are necessary for an orderly society.
Posted By: Bach Re: Improving Kansas Wrestling! - 04/22/07 09:38 PM
I have to aggree with the basics arguement. If more kids would be brought up to wrestle with basic skills, then advanced as they mature into the sport, you would remedy this. I saw, many times over, kids who where "one-trick" wrestlers. Learn that defense, they were done. The best seem to have solid basic fundamental skills. My son won a state championship this year. If you watched him, you saw a;double-leg takedown, sit-out off bottom, and many 1/2 nelson pins. These were taught to him by his first kids coaches. And they were stressed for many years after he started. While he utilizes many different moves he has learned thru the years, he always seemed to incorporate the basics.
Posted By: TRAVIUS.com Re: Improving Kansas Wrestling! - 04/23/07 12:17 AM
WHAT ABOUT THIS???

Art. 5: During the school year, but outside the season of a
sport, coaches/coaches’ aides may not coach in practice
or competition those students they will be coaching the
following year in that sport.

Art. 6: Beginning with the Saturday before Memorial Day,
concluding Saturday of SCW #4, football, volleyball, and
basketball coaches/coaches’ aides may:

a. Supervise use of indoor/outdoor facilities by athletes
in their sport. Sport specifi c instruction and coaching
by anyone may not take place in conjunction with the
supervision.

b. Work with individual students or a single group (no
more than three (3) students) provided instruction is
on a voluntary basis, and requested by the student(s).
Such instruction must occur at a time separate from
supervised sessions defined in (a).

Art. 7: Coaches/coaches’ aides other than football, volleyball,
and basketball are not subject to the restrictions
outlined in Article (6).

Art. 8: c. All sport coaches may conduct a one-week team
camp for members of the school squad. All camps must
conclude before Sunday of SCW #5.
Posted By: RichardDSalyer Re: Improving Kansas Wrestling! - 04/23/07 12:25 AM
 Originally Posted By: TRAVIUS wycowrestling.org
WHAT ABOUT THIS???

Art. 5: During the school year, but outside the season of a
sport, coaches/coaches’ aides may not coach in practice
or competition those students they will be coaching the
following year in that sport.

Art. 6: Beginning with the Saturday before Memorial Day,
concluding Saturday of SCW #4, football, volleyball, and
basketball coaches/coaches’ aides may:

a. Supervise use of indoor/outdoor facilities by athletes
in their sport. Sport specifi c instruction and coaching
by anyone may not take place in conjunction with the
supervision.

b. Work with individual students or a single group (no
more than three (3) students) provided instruction is
on a voluntary basis, and requested by the student(s).
Such instruction must occur at a time separate from
supervised sessions defined in (a).

Art. 7: Coaches/coaches’ aides other than football, volleyball,
and basketball are not subject to the restrictions
outlined in Article (6).

Art. 8: c. All sport coaches may conduct a one-week team
camp for members of the school squad. All camps must
conclude before Sunday of SCW #5.


What about it?
Posted By: TRAVIUS.com Re: Improving Kansas Wrestling! - 04/23/07 12:27 AM
Art. 6: Beginning with the Saturday before Memorial Day,
concluding Saturday of SCW #4, football, volleyball, and
basketball coaches/coaches’ aides may:

b. Work with individual students or a single group (no
more than three (3) students) provided instruction is
on a voluntary basis, and requested by the student(s).
Such instruction must occur at a time separate from
supervised sessions defined in (a).
Posted By: sportsfan02 Re: Improving Kansas Wrestling! - 04/23/07 12:40 AM
 Originally Posted By: TRAVIUS wycowrestling.org
Art. 6: Beginning with the Saturday before Memorial Day,
concluding Saturday of SCW #4, football, volleyball, and
basketball coaches/coaches’ aides may:

b. Work with individual students or a single group (no
more than three (3) students) provided instruction is
on a voluntary basis, and requested by the student(s).
Such instruction must occur at a time separate from
supervised sessions defined in (a).

I guess I don't understand what your point is either.
Posted By: GregMann Re: Improving Kansas Wrestling! - 04/23/07 01:48 AM
What it means is that from Memorial Day until about Labor Day vb, fb, & bb coaches can work with their athletes individually or in groups no larger than three at a time. There are NO restrictions placed on the number of athletes a wrestling coach can work with during this period of time.


Posted By: TRAVIUS.com Re: Improving Kansas Wrestling! - 04/23/07 01:56 AM
true
Posted By: sportsfan02 Re: Improving Kansas Wrestling! - 04/23/07 11:35 AM
 Originally Posted By: Egg
What it means is that from Memorial Day until about Labor Day vb, fb, & bb coaches can work with their athletes individually or in groups no larger than three at a time. There are NO restrictions placed on the number of athletes a wrestling coach can work with during this period of time.

I just thought everyone already knew that. I believe that rule was changed as a result of lobbying by the KWCA if I'm not mistaken.
Posted By: GregMann Re: Improving Kansas Wrestling! - 04/23/07 12:56 PM
From some of the comments posted on this forum, it would lead one to believe that there are many who do not know of this loose KSHSAA summer coach-athlete policy in place for those sports that are NOT vb, fb & bb.
Posted By: sportsfan02 Re: Improving Kansas Wrestling! - 04/23/07 02:00 PM
 Originally Posted By: Egg
From some of the comments posted on this forum, it would lead one to believe that there are many who do not know of this loose KSHSAA summer coach-athlete policy in place for those sports that are NOT vb, fb & bb.

I know many coaches take full advantage of it.
Posted By: TRAVIUS.com Re: Improving Kansas Wrestling! - 04/23/07 02:06 PM
If a high School coach can coach his kids in the months of Jan, Feb, Jun, July, Aug, Nov, and Dec... 7 months a year and lift weight the other months... then how much more time is the coach supposed to commit. I don't have wife and kids yet and I know I invest a lot of time. Some coaches with family, who teach school and have lesson planning and grade papers and other things like church and other organizations just cant give up their lives to just coach wrestling. There are plenty of other avenues where wrestlers can wrestle and receive great training during the school year outside of wrestling season.

But thats just my opinion.
Posted By: Cokeley Re: Improving Kansas Wrestling! - 04/23/07 03:20 PM
The heart of FS/GR season is April and May.
Posted By: VS Vike coach Re: Improving Kansas Wrestling! - 04/24/07 12:32 AM
Cokeley:

In Iowa, we have the same rules Kansas has, as in no coaching by high school coaches outside the season during the school year. What the smart coaches do for freestyle season is send the kids to clubs that are coached by college kids, or find a non-school coach that has a good background in FS/GR. And as Travius pointed out, you can still lift with the kids outside of the season.

You can succeed without cheating.
Posted By: grandad Re: Improving Kansas Wrestling! - 04/24/07 01:30 AM

Why should we have to send our kids to other coaches? don't you think they would be better off if mabe the rules were diffent? Just a though and as far as coaches working with high school kids in jan,feb,june,july,aug,nov,and dec, not our high school coach your dreaming and I would bet most small schools don't.
Right now are asst coach is the only one working with most of the kids trying to keep them in shape to wrestle and in the mean time were waiting for the third head coach to come to town in the past five years, and that should be by the time school starts. Has anyone got any ideas how to build a good team with this program?
Posted By: BigApple Re: Improving Kansas Wrestling! - 04/24/07 04:17 PM
Let me introduce myself as a new member. I grew up in Wichita, attended and wrestled for Campus High (you won't find my name in any record books, I wasn't very good then), and later served as an assistant coach at OU from 1971-1974. I then moved back to Wichita where I helped Kapaun-Mt. Carmel become a wrestling power under the direction of Duwane Miller. After completing graduate school I moved to Phoenix where I still reside.

I checked the website because I'm coming home this weekend to visit my ailing mother. I was hoping to attend a local freestyle tournament but alas didn't find one.

It was a pleasure to read this topic about improving wrestling in Kansas. The civility on the forum is a decided improvement over the AZWrestler.com forum. I have intentionally stepped on a few toes because what I see in Arizona is inferior to what I know is being done in Oklahoma and Kansas.

Last Satudrday I said hello to a coach who I think does a good job and was berated for some of my comments, and was told I wasn't in the trenches like he was. I will write him a long letter listing my "in the trenches activities". The statement that really stuck in my craw was that it would take 2 or 3 generations to get Arizona wrestling to a significantly higher level. I disagree because I know the great strides that have been made in Kansas since I graduated from high school in 1963.

I got my nickname which I use as my log in name from the late Tony Bontz, who along with Dave Unruh, Bob Hershberger, Duwane Miller, and Ben Bennett (Junction City) were instrumental in developing kids wrestling first in Kansas and later on a national basis. Lee Roy Smith the Executive Director of the National Hall of Fame told me that USA Wrestling essentially adopted the bylaws written in Kansas.

What I'd like to know are what are the improvements that were made in Kansas wrestling since I left the state in 1978 to get it to the enviable position today where it has the highest ratio of USA Wrestling competitors per capita of any state (correct me if I'm wrong).

me email is warrenapplegate@yahoo.com

I would like to enlighten my compatriots in my adopted state on what can be done to make similar strides for improving wrestling through all levels.
Posted By: Scott Fausset Re: Improving Kansas Wrestling! - 04/24/07 05:21 PM
I think this has gotten away from the original intent of this thread. I certainly want to hear more about fundamentals from those who know. I have been taking notes.

There is another thread discussing the rules. I posted my thoughts on that topic there.

Please tell us more about technique, fundamentals, best practices, etc.
Posted By: TRAVIUS.com Re: Improving Kansas Wrestling! - 04/24/07 05:29 PM
I would like to hear more about how others conduct practice.. I was at the Brute Nationals and listened to a coach from PA who had some enlightening concepts about how to conduct practice.
Posted By: blaise Re: Improving Kansas Wrestling! - 04/24/07 07:49 PM
just checking
Posted By: Aaron Sweazy Re: Improving Kansas Wrestling! - 04/25/07 08:00 AM
A sticky situation I've seen a few times is what if the one of the kids that wrestles with you is in fact your own kid? Could in theory some coach from another school state something like, "I saw so and so wrestling around with his kid at a party" ?
Posted By: TRAVIUS.com Re: Improving Kansas Wrestling! - 04/25/07 08:43 AM
Parents can ALWAYS coach there kids according to KSHSAA
Posted By: VS Vike coach Re: Improving Kansas Wrestling! - 04/25/07 02:28 PM
I think, from what I read from way back at the beginning of this thread, the question is not rules, but how to improve within them.

As one who coached in Kansas and in one of the "traditional wrestling states" as well let me say that Kansas wrestling really is pretty good. For a state that has very few college (of any level) wrestling programs and less than 200 high schools (last I knew) that even have wrestling, it is still a popular, well-coached sport with many passionate followers.

First, there needs to be a dedication to fundemental wrestling. High school coaches need to work closely with their clubs and middle schools to establish fundmental standards for stance, movement, basic takedowns (snapdowns, singles, doubles), basic bottom moves (stand-ups, stand-ups and stand-ups) and basic rides (not legs) and basic turns (halfs and arm-bars). By the time a kid is ready for high school wrestling, those basics should be second nature. The more advanced stuff can come once those basics are mastered.

Second, lose the junk. Headlocks and spladles are not solid fundemental wrestling moves. They are junk and better saved for "funny clinic move day" at high school practice.

Third, avoid burnout. Too many matches at too young an age can burn kids out. We have kids in our program right now whose parents and club coaches have pushed them into so many tournaments by age 10 that they've given up the sport altogether. State Kids' titles are nice and all, but if by age 12 a kid is so wrestled out that he equates wrestling to taking out the trash (10 bonus points if you can name the movie reference!), what good has it done? Kids' programs should be about learning, not winning and losing.

High school coaches need to find someone in the community (or surrounding area), that is not a part of the high school staff who can coach those kids in the time that the high school coach can't. This needs to be a trustworthy person who understands what the high school coach wants and is willing to do what is asked if them. Those people exist if you take the time to find them.

Finally, stop using the existing rules as an excuse. Rules are what they for a reason, and Kansas's rules (like many states) are in place to encourage kids to be multi-sport athletes. As I mentioned before, there is a wonderful, positive passion in the Kansas wrestling community — one I miss to be honest with you — so long as it doesn't become misguided.

It's not about State Championships, or D-I recruits or All-Americans at Fargo. It's about the greatest sport of them all and how it prepares young people for life. Anything else is just gravy. Never lose sight of that.
Posted By: grandad Re: Improving Kansas Wrestling! - 04/26/07 12:53 PM

Just thinking what I read from Randy Hinderliter, and a little from Shane Koranda, they are both right and you can write all you want but they hit the nail on the head and I hope others take notes. The only thing I have been saying is the schools need to have coaches that are willing to work at making Kansas wrestling better insted of doing it for a second job with a small paycheck at the end of the year. Rod Spellman spent twenty some years in Hiawatha and was liked by all, and all I had to do if I needed to know something was a phone call away and now with three coaches in five years how can we build a program here? I asked that in
the last post and all the coaches that post here have still not gave the anser and I though coach Brown would have some idea but after reading all the post not even coach Brown can anser that.
Posted By: Kale Mann Re: Improving Kansas Wrestling! - 04/26/07 02:32 PM
Grandad,

I think your concern is a little specific for this topic. You are talking about a problem specific to one school, not wrestling in Kansas in general which is why not many have addressed your concern. The honest answer is that without consistency of a coach it is unlikely that a strong program will be developed. Possibly this situation could be overcome by an exceptional kids program that constantly produced strong wrestlers, but even then you are fighting an uphill battle with the frequent changes made in Hiawatha.

I would say the first thing that needs to be done is to examine why those coaches left so quickly. Is there a problem with administrative support, community support, were their families unhappy in Hiawatha, were they offered a "better job" either for coaching or teaching, or where they not really that interested in coaching wrestling. My guess is each of them left for their own personal reasons, but there may be a common thread there.

The next step would be to remedy the main issues that are affecting these coaches if possible. Other than that I don't know what advice to give. It may be a case of finding the right person for the situation, which can be difficult to do.

I hope that helps a little!
Posted By: Coach Brown Re: Improving Kansas Wrestling! - 04/29/07 03:16 PM
Grandad,
I have to say that Hiawatha does have the athletes to build a program, as I feel that I do here in Sabetha. Sabetha had gone through three coaches in a short amount of time before I came and for some the small town livin that is our residence does not appeal to all. I wanted to build a program, not a few good years, a program and I am still trying. I will be providing freestyle/greco practice, not until the end of May, for all the area kids(Hiawatha, Holton, Jeff West, and Sabetha)hopefully.

I do not have an answer for you about what to do in Hiawatha, it is hard to find a coach for a small town that wants to put in the time required to build a strong program. I love wrestling and think about it almost 24 hours a day, so for me the amount of time is not a concern. It might be for my wife, but that is why I married into a wrestling family! Time is always a concern and most of us do not have the time. I can be a little overbearing when it comes to wrestling.

Scott has done a good job in Hiwatha and hopefully they will find someone to fill his spot that is young and "wants" to coach. The most important thing is to find one, we are a dying breed the teacher/coach is not an attractive job to alot of people. The only thing I have wanted to do since I was a sophmore in highschool was to teach and coach. Hiawatha will rebound and you will find another coach like Rod, or you could just plead with him to come back!

Best of Luck and I hope to see some Redhawks in Sabetha for Freestyle/Greco practices!
Coach Brown
Posted By: grandad Re: Improving Kansas Wrestling! - 04/29/07 05:35 PM

Thanks coach Brown
Belive me we have talked to Rod Spellman all the time and even Don have been talking but at the same time its time for him to have time for his Girls and his wife, and he loves golf so that being said we all understand.
The schools in kansas are looking at rule ten coaches like Holton has done none of the three are teachers and there are other schools that have went to rule ten coaches and did great.
I think one of the things that happened in Brown county is there are three clubs in brown county like Horton, Hiawatha and Sabetha takes a few kids out of the kids wrestling program includeing three that are from Horton wrestling for Holton and four wrestling for Doniphan wrestling club so its hard to have the numbers it takes to build a club and keep then together.
You have a very good asst. in the George boy, and I have been around him and his brother and they wrestled the same time with are asst. coach Don.
Teams like Clay Center that have somewheres around 70 kids wrestling in the program have a great advanage over teams like ours.
Its hard to fine kids that would like to wrestle in High School and just start there eight grade year. Most of then either get beat up till they quit or don't relize how much work it is.
Wrestling is the hardest sport in High School to be good at and not many kids want to work at it that much.
Posted By: usawks1 Re: Improving Kansas Wrestling! - 09/23/08 03:20 PM
... any more thought?
Posted By: usawks1 Re: Improving Kansas Wrestling! - 01/06/09 05:07 PM
Here's a blast from the past!
Posted By: Coach Brown Re: Improving Kansas Wrestling! - 01/08/09 01:14 AM
Randy,

I think that we should still be riding the high from last years NHSCA Nationals and the tremendous showing we had there. I am happy and proud that I was able to be there and be a part of a team that represented the state of Kansas so well. I do so enjoy your company and those of the Kansas coaching fraternity---27!

As to answer some of the other questions about improving, I am working towards adding freestyle/greco to this area this year, we now have a coach! At Sabetha we passed a bond and the program will have a wrestling room, a new gym, and a new locker room which will only be an improvement after 40 years without a room! Those around my area have all expressed a deep intrest in the mixing of our teams during the kids fed and freestyle seasons.

You spoke of "core strength" luckily last year Matt an Jason Pyle showed me many core exercises with a med. ball...we have been doing 2-3 morning conditioning practices each week with the balls, resistance bands, and circuit training with free weights. I think, an my athletes do too, that it has made a tremendous impact. I watched Akin using resistance bands with Cokely and Slyter doing shots, stance an motion, and using plyometrics-I do as well!

On a weekly basis we work on relaxation an visulization, goals, and getting in the "zone". It does not always take hold with every athlete, some cannot let their mind relax and "see" what they need to accomplish, but when they come tell me they are dreaming about matches it is hard to argue against the mental aspect.

Finally a last little tid-bit someone told me once. "They will never love wrestling as much as you do!" coach Lee Woodford.

Hope to see ya soon buddy, and I hope you are doing well, the knee is fine by the way, but now I dislocated a pinkie!

Brown
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