Kansas Wrestling
Posted By: Cokeley KSHSAA delivers yet another blow! - 05/03/07 06:00 PM
6A State Tournament - Olathe Northwest
5A State Tournament - Hutchison
4A State Tournament - Salina
321A State Tournament - Hays

I guess we can all just dream about watching our friends from schools in different classifications wrestle next year. This arrangement just about destroys any chance of college coaches coming to watch wrestlers who are on the bubble. Please don't attempt to sugarcoat this obvious failure to plan with lame excuses. It is time for new leadership and progressive thinking in the office of the KSHSAA. The existing monarchy needs to be dismantled and a true democracy put in place. Anyone who doesn't think that Gary Musselman isn't a virtual dictator is just naive.
Will that is Kansas for you. They had a chance to make state better then it has ever been and what do they do reach back into the 70's and put it in a high school gym. Boy that took a lot of thought and creativity. Hope Pitt. remains 4A. They need to put the high school state football Championship on Abels field in Leavenworth. Nothing like going backwards. This state from the college level to the high school level never improves, but progression takes a person with church bells. Scott Rieck
Posted By: GregMann Re: KSHSAA delivers yet another blow! - 05/03/07 06:46 PM
Having had the opportunity to work closely with Mr. Musselman and the other KSHSAA personnel on some projects and having "crossed swords" with them in some other areas, I disagree with your over-reaching generalization. He does/they do wield a lot of power, but no more than that which is given them by the by-laws of the KSHSAA; which, is an organization composed of member schools whose sole purpose is to oversee and administer certain specified interscholastic activities, and whose member schools do, in fact, select their own governing boards--including the one which hires and fires the KSHSAA personnel.

IMHO, if the worst thing that ever happens is that the Kansas state wrestling tournament(s) is/are not wrestled in the same facility I will die a satisfied man.


Greg Mann
Norton, KS
Posted By: Chief Renegade Re: KSHSAA delivers yet another blow! - 05/03/07 06:50 PM
 Originally Posted By: Egg
Having had the opportunity to work closely with Mr. Musselman and the other KSHSAA personnel on some projects and having "crossed swords" with them in some other areas, I disagree with your over-reaching generalization. He does/they do wield a lot of power, but no more than that which is given them by the by-laws of the KSHSAA; which, is an organization composed of member schools whose sole purpose is to oversee and administer certain specified interscholastic activities, and whose member schools do, in fact, select their own governing boards--including the one which hires and fires the KSHSAA personnel.

IMHO, if the worst thing that ever happens is that the Kansas state wrestling tournament(s) is/are not wrestled in the same facility I will die a satisfied man.


Greg Mann
Norton, KS


Greg, Do you support the decision to split all the classes up and to wrestle 2 of them in High School Gyms? Not the worst thing to ever happen. Just a worse thing.
Posted By: LancerLou Re: KSHSAA delivers yet another blow! - 05/03/07 06:52 PM
Is this official? I also thought Hutch might be on the bubble to move up to 6a. Will they definately remain 5a?
Posted By: parkwayred Re: KSHSAA delivers yet another blow! - 05/03/07 07:45 PM
Mr. Mann with all do respect lets make a deal! How about we move 321a to Norton and let 5A & 6A go to Hays? There were options on the table. These kids have worked all their careers to wrestle in a High school gymnasium for their final matches. I’m not concerned about recuitability, my concern is atmosphere! This is the show!
Posted By: GregMann Re: KSHSAA delivers yet another blow! - 05/03/07 08:11 PM
And with all due respect for you Red, do you honestly think these two tournaments would have been assigned to these venues if there were better options? And as far as atmosphere, these two facilities will have worse atmosphere than what was had at Wichita!?!?
Posted By: Isenberg133 Re: KSHSAA delivers yet another blow! - 05/03/07 09:03 PM
well, are they going to be held in the high schools, because hutch has the Sports Arena they could use.
Posted By: Larry Perez Re: KSHSAA delivers yet another blow! - 05/03/07 11:55 PM
I think some may be missing a small point! Seeing how recruiting works, coaches would like to go to one place and pick out a few wrestlers they would like to watch. This style will really make that harder on coaches. And I know that if your "good" you will be recruited somewhere, but it's about those kids who maybe are not considered in the "good" area too. Getting a chance to wrestle in college was a dream ever since I was little, and I was lucky enough to get to make that a reality! In my eyes this is not a good move. Maybe KSHSAA sould travel and look at other state tournys, because Kansas is not cutting it.

These are my views, take it how you want it!
Posted By: parkwayred Re: KSHSAA delivers yet another blow! - 05/04/07 12:59 AM
I personally don’t hold any ill will against the coliseum. After 10 straight years it’s kind of like home! I know the predicament that Mr. Bowden was in, but there were options presented to him with KSU. When you’re with out a home you need to be flexible. But let’s get back to the question… would you support Norton High, wrestling at lets say St. Francis or Oberlin for all the marbles? Be a sport and let the big schools go to Hays! \:\)
Posted By: GregMann Re: KSHSAA delivers yet another blow! - 05/04/07 01:28 AM
No high school gym would hold the 321A state crowd.

Mann
Posted By: GregMann Re: KSHSAA delivers yet another blow! - 05/04/07 02:15 AM

What options were presented for KSU? My understanding was that Ahearn could have been available but the parking there is not nearly sufficient--shuttle buses from the football stadium? I also think there was not enough room on the floor for eight mats and still have sufficient seating.

I also understood that Bramlage was not available that weekend--or was it that eight mats could not be fit on the floor--or both?

There is no gym in our part of the state that would even come close to holding the crowds that 321A bring.
Posted By: Disney Re: KSHSAA delivers yet another blow! - 05/04/07 02:42 AM
 Originally Posted By: Cokeley
The existing monarchy needs to be dismantled and a true democracy put in place.


Will:
Are you talking about an absolute monarchy (such as Saudia Arabia or Vatican City) or a constitutional monarchy (such as the United Kingodm)?

As to putting in a "true democracy" remember that the drafters of the U.S. Constitution decided against a "true democracy" because they feared mob rule (i.e. Shay's rebellion). They opted instead for a republic where the population are represented by elected leaders.
Posted By: Cokeley Re: KSHSAA delivers yet another blow! - 05/04/07 03:01 AM
Barry,

Personally I believe Gary is more like Stalin or Fidel. I didn't realize I was going to have to get that technical. I really believe the KSHSAA should be operated more like Jack Welch operated GE. If you are in the same job too long without making any improvements you got the axe! There is too much complacency and no accountability.

PARKING ISSUES: Are you going to tell me there is enough parking at Olathe Northwest for 6A state?? I believe the fire marshall might be showing up \:\)

There was inadequate advanced planning and no foresight. Honestly, if we only had 321A State and 654A state we would have plenty of options and still one too many state champions.
Posted By: sportsfan02 Re: KSHSAA delivers yet another blow! - 05/04/07 08:18 AM
I guess I don't understand why so many people are suddenly surprised or outraged by this decision. We have known for months where these tournaments would be moved and some of us tried to tell this board a couple of years ago that this would happen when they moved 4A to Salina.
My question is this, how many of you actually attend the state tournaments? I am constantly amazed at the number of ex-wrestlers, many of whom competed at a very high level, who are not fans of the sport. Also, how many of you are attending some youth tournament instead of high school state? Would you support a statewide moratorium on youth tournaments the weekend of state? Heaven knows, missing that one weekend would set some of your wrestlers back years, but it might be worth it if you desire larger venues for the high schoolers.
Frankly, from looking at last years revenues from regionals and state, 5A and 6A don't deserve anything better than a high school gym.
Posted By: parkwayred Re: KSHSAA delivers yet another blow! - 05/04/07 11:33 AM
 Originally Posted By: Egg

What options were presented for KSU? My understanding was that Ahearn could have been available but the parking there is not nearly sufficient--shuttle buses from the football stadium? I also think there was not enough room on the floor for eight mats and still have sufficient seating.

I also understood that Bramlage was not available that weekend--or was it that eight mats could not be fit on the floor--or both?


I’m checking with my sources at KSU, I will get back with on that question. On the fact that amount of mats needed, I don’t think so they only used 9 when 4A was at the coliseum. When 5A was moved to Hucth you only needed 3 mats for Bramlage. As far as the parking and Ahearn it could have worked locally with over flow being shuttled in. If you’re talking about mat space we used to hold a kids tournament with 12 mats. With all kinds of fan accommodation. Sure it’s a barn but the place used to rock during the hay days of KSU basket ball. I would assume that you remember that far back?

I do know that Topeka was an option for all groups to be reunited if they were willing to move up a week or back a week in KSHSAA scheduling needs. For some reason this was not an option to the board. Everyone has an off week so why not make it two? I know the kids could use a break to heal up and get their school work caught up.

I’m just struggling with the fact that this has been talked about for over two years and Olathe Northwest was the best solution! I don’t believe that all options were evaluated fairly and without forward thinking!

I know there is not a gym big enough to hold 321A out west… I just wanted your opinion whether you would consider this (High School Gym) a viable option if the Hays location was unavailable?

Mark
Posted By: Scarecrow_103 Re: KSHSAA delivers yet another blow! - 05/04/07 11:53 AM
Is Olathe Northwest the host school? Does that mean that the tournament is to be held at ONW or they are just the host school and can move it someplace else? Did ONW bid on it? Can other schools bid on it in the future?
Posted By: parkwayred Re: KSHSAA delivers yet another blow! - 05/04/07 12:00 PM
 Originally Posted By: Egg

I also understood that Bramlage was not available that weekend--or was it that eight mats could not be fit on the floor--or both?


As far as Bramlage is concerned there is not scheduling conflict… They (KSU) have to wait until the Big 12 release their basket ball scheduling which happens in July and things can be manipulated on their part. This was presented to Mr. Bowden without a response. I understand the urgency but you can always have a contingency plan if things don’t work out!
Posted By: 24/7 Re: KSHSAA delivers yet another blow! - 05/04/07 12:18 PM
Bottom line is somebody in charge needs to find a way to get make this a priority to get these back together. I would doubt is anyone is actively looking NOW to get these back together 3,4,5 years from now. The current situation stinks, but it will never get better unless a plan is formed to go to KSU, KU, WSU or other large venues and start working on options for the future. I would guess we will sit pat until current contract run out and then try to find other options. Not the way business works. I somewhat agree with Will...You have to put people in power with a vision and committment for improvement and if they don't produce they need to be replaced with someone who can get it done. That is the way my job is. I would guess most of yours as well. The reason the 321a guys and 4a guys are not upset is they are not wrestling in HS gym.

24/7
Posted By: sportsfan02 Re: KSHSAA delivers yet another blow! - 05/04/07 12:35 PM
 Originally Posted By: 24/7
The reason the 321a guys and 4a guys are not upset is they are not wrestling in HS gym.
24/7

Just like the 5A and 6A people didn't say anything when 4A was moved to Salina. What goes around comes around!
Posted By: Disney Re: KSHSAA delivers yet another blow! - 05/04/07 12:46 PM
Stalin or Fidel I can understand. Jack Welch and GE? Seriously, how far do you think KSHSAA would get selling applicances?
Posted By: sportsfan02 Re: KSHSAA delivers yet another blow! - 05/04/07 01:33 PM
 Originally Posted By: Disney
Stalin or Fidel I can understand. Jack Welch and GE? Seriously, how far do you think KSHSAA would get selling applicances?

Is the comparison to Stalin and Fidel anything like being compared to Hitler or Nazis? If so, that is a clear violation of Godwin's Law.
Posted By: parkwayred Re: KSHSAA delivers yet another blow! - 05/04/07 02:35 PM
 Originally Posted By: sportsfan02
Is the comparison to Stalin and Fidel anything like being compared to Hitler or Nazis? If so, that is a clear violation of Godwin's Law.


No the debate/discussion must go on! Nobody has violated Godwin's law except you! So is your intention to cease this discussion?
Posted By: sportsfan02 Re: KSHSAA delivers yet another blow! - 05/04/07 02:55 PM
 Originally Posted By: parkwayred

So is your intention to cease this discussion?

NO! I just think it's a day late and a dollar short. Again, I still question, where were all you people a couple of years ago when a small group of 4A coaches and the Coliseum detractors were so vocal? That high school gym may make the Coliseums deficiencies and the urban myths regarding the staff, small in comparison.
Posted By: Cokeley Re: KSHSAA delivers yet another blow! - 05/04/07 03:21 PM
I was told the move to Salina was temporary and that they would be reunited. No one mentioned that this was a possible solution. 4A Pulled out on their own, correct? No solidarity... We need the tournament to be run like a business where there is accountability. If my job was to find the venue that would be the most successful then I would be fired for coming up with the present solution.
Posted By: Mahan Re: KSHSAA delivers yet another blow! - 05/04/07 04:08 PM
I am not sure how much college scouting is done at a state tournament...College coaches are pretty busy with thier own schedules that time of year...and their are a number of states that have state tournaments that weekend...so I am not sure how many kids colleges could look at in February anyway...but yeah the set up for kS state tournaments is not ideal...but if you want to do what is best for kids/athletes...this one weekend ordeal is not the biggest battle...the 3 months that our bordering states get to work with their kids in the spring is far more preventive to our kids getting scholarships than one weekend of wrestling...how many college coaches are at National duals and Fargo?...and how far are we behind other states in July, when they have been working out since March...our Team KS staff does an incredible job...if they were on equal footing with everyone else what then?
Posted By: wrestlenow Re: KSHSAA delivers yet another blow! - 05/04/07 04:10 PM

Just like the 5A and 6A people didn't say anything when 4A was moved to Salina. What goes around comes around! [/quote]


Sportsfan I think that you are sadly mistaken here. The reason that the 5A and 6A peopel didn't say anything when the 4A moved to Salina is because the 4A people asked for that move. They think they are better than the other divisions for some reason.
Posted By: GregMann Re: KSHSAA delivers yet another blow! - 05/04/07 05:40 PM
".. .they only used 9 when 4A was at the coliseum." But didn't they go to four mats per class when 4A moved to Salina? Many coaches I have talked to would not really want to to back to three mats--though I personally believe we get done too early on Friday nights using four mats. I am, however, in a distinct minority on this one.

"If you’re talking about mat space we used to hold a kids tournament with 12 mats. With all kinds of fan accommodation. Sure it’s a barn but the place used to rock during the hay days of KSU basket ball. I would assume that you remember that far back?"
Oh yes, I remember seeing Nick Pino play! But, with that many mats on the floor you had no floor seating, did you? That is the problem with seating at Ahearn; It is big enough to hold 8 mats, but then you give up the floor seating.

"I do know that Topeka was an option for all groups to be reunited if they were willing to move up a week or back a week in KSHSAA scheduling needs. For some reason this was not an option to the board. Everyone has an off week so why not make it two?"
Not all schools have the same off week. To align off weeks would take a couple of years of schedule changes as contracts would run their course and tournaments moved to different dates, etc.

"I know the kids could use a break to heal up and get their school work caught up."
Wow, some kids have a real problem holding their weight at the end of the season as it is. Also, If you go a week later with the KSHSAA tournament you run smack dab into KSHSAA BB sub-states. I know this is a wrestling site and BB does not matter, but it does matter to those of us who have to administer the events, provide buses and drivers, supervision, etc. etc. It would be a NIGHTMARE to be doing both at once.

"I’m just struggling with the fact that this has been talked about for over two years and Olathe Northwest was the best solution! I don’t believe that all options were evaluated fairly and without forward thinking!"
I don't know Mark; I truly believe that Mr. Bowden would have jumped at a better option and I am pretty sure he was not sitting on his hands the entire time.
I spoke with him about this a couple of times in the past year and it was obvious he was really stressed about it.

"I know there is not a gym big enough to hold 321A out west… I just wanted your opinion whether you would consider this (High School Gym) a viable option if the Hays location was unavailable?"
If there were no other options, what would the better option be?
Posted By: 24/7 Re: KSHSAA delivers yet another blow! - 05/04/07 06:31 PM
The 2003-04 season was the inaugural season of Charles Koch Arena - the 10,400-seat arena which Shocker fans know as the home venue for Wichita State basketball and volleyball competition.


Is this arena not at least big enough to hold 5a and 6a and probably add 4a to it? Why are we not looking at arenas like this. If there is a scheduling conflict work a couple years out see if we can move a week or they can accomidate. Also what about the Wichita coliseum after its done getting modernized? Are their plans to move back. It is simply unacceptable in today's day and age to wrestle a state championship at a HS. If not in Wichita then look at other options.

Missouri has figured out a way to wrestle both HS and Kids on Mizzou's campus and they have the same scheduling issues. I know Missou has wrestling and our major colleges do not, but I would doubt if our leadership was ever told "No we can't host because we don't offer wrestling" by any of our major colleges. I just don't think we have tried that hard.

24/7
Posted By: Myron Ellegood Re: KSHSAA delivers yet another blow! - 05/04/07 06:51 PM
I was very disappointed to see that the 45&6A was divided up. I have always enjoyed watching the best wrestlers from all of these classes and even wished I could watch the 123A tournament as well. Other than enjoying the great wrestling it has become somewhat of a reunion of old friends for me. Now I have to choose which friends and wrestlers to watch, what a disappointment. Think about all of the great teams and wrestlers you have not been able to watch just do to the fact that 123A and 456A have been at separate sites. I have enjoyed both venues, but after going out of state and watching the Nebraska state tournament I will never agree with holding the tournaments at separate sites. To hold all of the tournaments at one site you would have to be able to put down eight mats, run the tournament over a three day period, and have a place that would hold 10-15 thousand people. You could have a 123A and 4A session then a 456A session. When you get down to the semifinals you could run all classes during the same session. Think about what a great tournament we could have if we pooled all of our best resources into one tournament. Not to mention that all classes could be televised. I firmly believe the KSHSAA would save thousands of dollars and increase attendance if they held all of these tournaments in one building. I do agree that the Kansas coliseum is a poor and outdated site, that appears to have had very little updating since it was built. I disagree with the fact that college coaches don't recruit kids form these tournaments. College coaches always send representatives to these tournaments and some kids do get discovered that have not been in the mainstream media. I have always looked forward to the Kansas state wrestling tournament and even drove back from Nebraska every year just to watch. However, the decision to divide the different classes has turned me off to the state tournament and if Hutch was not hosting I'm not sure I would be attending.
Posted By: parkwayred Re: KSHSAA delivers yet another blow! - 05/04/07 07:25 PM
 Originally Posted By: Egg

Oh yes, I remember seeing Nick Pino play! But, with that many mats on the floor you had no floor seating, did you? That is the problem with seating at Ahearn; It is big enough to hold 8 mats, but then you give up the floor seating.


You have just dated yourself Egg... your OLD! But I remember Nick crussin town in his VW and sitting in the back seat to drive, man that dude had alot of hair on his back!

I have on several occasion spoke with Mr. Bowden trying to resolve this dilemma, I know and understand the kind of pain he has experienced, this is not attack against Rick. But the board knew this was a problem since my youngest was a freshman he now will be a senior. So to say that there wasn’t time to find a solution I refuse to believe. They could have signed a contract 3 years ago with someone in the state. Now my son will most likely wrestle his last matches in the same environment that he started his high school career a “High School Gym” As I have said before, State is a big deal to the kids, schools, families and fans. These people deserve better.

My second question is… do you really get to sit on the floor in Hays or do they make you guys sit in the stands? You mentioned floor seating! There really wasn’t a bad seat in the house at Ahearn, when I was a kid they used to hang in the rafters to watch games… If it was good enough for Bobby Kennedy it’s good enough for High school wrestling!
Posted By: Kale Mann Re: KSHSAA delivers yet another blow! - 05/04/07 07:42 PM
As a 5A coach I am very disappointed to be moving to a high school arena next year for state. I do think that our wrestlers who have worked so hard deserve more recognition than simply wrestling in another high school gym. However, I do not think the achivevement of a wrestler winning a state championship or a state medal will be diminished. Unfortunately what we have in Kansas is a lack of options. We don't have one available facility in the state that could hold Kansas's tournaments together in the present two day format. I understand some of the arguements against a 3 day meet, however I do think it is time to look more closely at that option to bring the meet to a better venue.

When I spoke to Mr. Bowden at Wichita this year, he was definitely not pleased with his present options. I know he is very greatful for the communities that stepped up to take on the 5A and 6A tournaments, but he too wanted a larger venue. The problem is that our facilities in Kansas are not adequate. I asked him specifically about Ahearn and he said they had inquired and been turned down by KSU. This was due to parking issues as well as the fact that Ahern is used for indoor practice for many of the K-State spring sports. K-State's postion is that it would not be fair for the college to kick out their own athletes to accomodate high school athletes (can anyone argue with that). The problem with Bramlage was floor space as well as that is where the K-State basketball teams practice, and they would not be willing to give up their practice times that late into their season.

I have several questions for those who are obviously upset about this situation:

1. What are the better, VIABLE options for a venue that weekend that could have 8-12 mats down with adequate seating?

The coliseum booked a boat show, Topeka has the Shriners, K-State said no, I would be shocked to death if KU were willing to give up Allen field house for a weekend (or even if it could hold the mats). I have no idea of the floor space at WSU's arena. I do know that Rick was looking under every rock to find the best possible solution for our wrestlers.

2. How many of you complaining actually attended one of the state tournaments last year?

This question was posed by another poster, but I think it deserves closer attention. The real problem with Wichita was a dollar and cents problem for the KSHSAA. I personally was never a fan of the coliseum (trash overflowing from garbage bins, toilets overflowing, security guards walking around waking wrestlers up trying to sleep between matches- and this was all on the lower level where only the competitors were!). But the KSHSAA problem was that not enough people showed up to watch for the amount they had to shell out to rent the coliseum. I think it is crazy for a grade schooler to wrestle that weekend at a kids tournament instead of going to watch High School state. Those kids should be at the state tourney watching, learning, and dreaming about the time they would be winning their state championships wrestling for their high school team. I personally remember going to Hays and being in awe at the atmosphere, the crowds, and of course the wrestlers from my home town that I idolized. If more people came to watch, I bet we would still be in the coliseum.

Fortunately this is not a permanent solution. Mr. Bowden indicated there were several options that may open up in the future. He said facilities in Park City and Junction City were scheduled to begin construction, and that the KSHSAA would continue to active be search for larger locations in the future.

I would say for the time being we have to swallow this bitter pill, but if our fan support dies down and no one shows up to watch our wrestlers compete at the biggest tournament of the year (regardless of location) then we will probably be stuck there. If we get large crowds and the KSHSAA can go to larger venues and show that large #'s of people will attend these events, than that will make their bargaining power greater- and will be what is best for our wrestlers.
Posted By: GregMann Re: KSHSAA delivers yet another blow! - 05/04/07 07:55 PM
Competitors, coaches and administration are allowed on the floor at Hays though by the time finals roll the door keepers are tired of fighting it and most people with any "good reason" at all are allowed on the floor. My concern about seating on the floor at Ahearn is probably not an issue--assume that Ahearn is handicap accessible and has elevators available for those who may need them.

The problem at KSU or KU or at Washburn etc, is the same: their dang BB seasons. Those guys never seem to have a set schedule until right before the season starts; and TV can muck things up even after that. Our high school league plays the semi-finals and finals of the BB tournament at the coliseum at FHSU. We sometimes have to perform scheduling gymnastics to work around their BB schedule. Moving a state wrestling tournament around would present some significant issues. Not too many years ago special schedules had to be implemented for the 1A State BB tournament at Hays because FHSU thought they were going to host a NCAA Div II regional tournament.

I believe that Mr. Bowden did exhaust the possibilities he had. More time would not have made the possibilities before him any more or less appealing.

Mann
Posted By: LoveToWrestle Re: KSHSAA delivers yet another blow! - 05/04/07 08:59 PM
I am very disappointed to find out that the state tournament would still be split up. To find out that 2 of them will be in high school gym's is ridiculous! I went to Wichita on the friday of state and Salina for the saturday of state (because I'm from 4a) and was also told it was a temporary thing. Not one single person I have talked to agrees with the seperating of 4a from 5a & 6a. Some people say it's all about the atmosphere; yes in a way it is, but that would be selfish of us spectators. Alot of those good wrestlers get noticed by collegiate coaches because of our combined state venue. I agree that we need some people that will work and fight to find a way to get it back the way it used to be. Yes 4a is fun to watch, but there are also remarkeable wrestlers in 5a & 6a that many fans go to watch and it is very disappointing when you are limited to only one class.
Posted By: RichardDSalyer Re: KSHSAA delivers yet another blow! - 05/04/07 09:10 PM
 Originally Posted By: Egg
I believe that Mr. Bowden did exhaust the possibilities he had. More time would not have made the possibilities before him any more or less appealing.

Mann


With all due respect Mr. Mann, you speak from a lack of knowledge.

The KSHSAA and Mr. Bowden were offered a two year contract by the Kansas Coliseum prior to the 2006 tournament which the KSHSAA and Mr. Bowden turned down, agreeing to a one year contract which expired in 2007.

The Coliseum booked the boat show simply because of the open date which KSHSAA created.

I attended the 6-5-4A tournament every year and for most of those years volunteeded to work a table, run bout cards, clean vomit from the mat, mop the mats betweem sessions, haul trash from the floor, call Coliseum maintenance personnel to clean up restrooms after unsupervised high school athletes crammed junk into urinals and toilets, and on one occasion, had the privilege of supervising a high school athlete retrieve a team members under garment which I witnessed him place in the urinal while several of his teamates relieved themselves in the soon to be overflowing urinal. It was quite funny for the youth until they were forced with the option of placing their hand in the now full urinal to clear the obstruction or be turned in to their high school administration.

To state that Mr. Bowden and the KSHSAA handled this business matter in a responsible manner is simply false.
Posted By: parkwayred Re: KSHSAA delivers yet another blow! - 05/04/07 09:14 PM
 Originally Posted By: Kale Mann

I would be shocked to death if KU were willing to give up Allen field house for a weekend (or even if it could hold the mats).


Kale that would be sacrilege to wrestle in a community that the inventor of basket ball was KU’s first Coach of their fist game!
Posted By: RichardDSalyer Re: KSHSAA delivers yet another blow! - 05/04/07 09:26 PM
 Originally Posted By: Kale Mann
Fortunately this is not a permanent solution. Mr. Bowden indicated there were several options that may open up in the future. He said facilities in Park City and Junction City were scheduled to begin construction, and that the KSHSAA would continue to active be search for larger locations in the future.


I know Mr. Bowden to be an intelligent man and I am certain he is aware the facility to be constructed in both Junction City and Park City, if built to the present design standards, will seat approximately 5,000 and will not have the required floor space to host the combined tournaments.

The only facility large enough to accomodate the tournament will be in Wichita and construction is scheduled to commence in the fall of 2007.
Posted By: GregMann Re: KSHSAA delivers yet another blow! - 05/05/07 12:22 AM

"With all due respect Mr. Mann, you speak from a lack of knowledge.

The KSHSAA and Mr. Bowden were offered a two year contract by the Kansas Coliseum prior to the 2006 tournament which the KSHSAA and Mr. Bowden turned down, agreeing to a one year contract which expired in 2007."

My statement was that I believed Mr. Bowden had exhausted the possibilities before him. And will all due respect, Mr. Salyer, hindsight is always 20-20.
Posted By: parkwayred Re: KSHSAA delivers yet another blow! - 05/05/07 12:47 AM
Check this out Egg! This has to be our man!

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Posted By: VS Vike coach Re: KSHSAA delivers yet another blow! - 05/05/07 12:09 PM
It would be nice to see the 6As, 5As and 4As together again in Wichita in the new arena. As has been said, it is unfortunate that for at least the next few years the classes are all going to be split up, but hopefully something can be worked out.

But I don't think jumping up and down on Mr. Bowden is fair. My experience with Rick Bowden always was that he was thoughtful and professional and acted in the best interest of the sport, the coaches and the athletes.

4A left because the 4A schools as a whole wanted the move. The 5As and 6As were moved because there were constant complaints about Wichita's facility. As was pointed out earlier, to hold a three-class tournament, you really need a facility that can hold eight mats and seat between 10 and 15 thousand. And a three-day tournament should be considered.

It is wonderful to hear that there are that many people who want to see all three classes together. It speaks a great deal to the interest and support wrestling has in Kansas. But without an acceptable facility available, no one can expect the coaches and athletes to compete in a sub-standard one. Hopefully the new arena in Wichita can fill that need.
Posted By: Kale Mann Re: KSHSAA delivers yet another blow! - 05/05/07 01:48 PM
 Originally Posted By: parkwayred
 Originally Posted By: Kale Mann

I would be shocked to death if KU were willing to give up Allen field house for a weekend (or even if it could hold the mats).


Kale that would be sacrilege to wrestle in a community that the inventor of basket ball was KU’s first Coach of their fist game!


Red,

I would be the last person to want to wrestle at KU. I don't even like driving thru the dang town, but unfortunately that is the quickest way to get back to Manhappiness!
Posted By: VS Vike coach Re: KSHSAA delivers yet another blow! - 05/05/07 03:32 PM
Was actually just looking at the website for the Sedgwick County Arena and it looks like a fantastic facility! It would be ideal for the combined 6A-5A-4A tournament. If everyone can be patient a few years while the finish it, it would be a great set up for the State tournament.
Posted By: Shelstin Re: KSHSAA delivers yet another blow! - 05/08/07 12:48 PM
It's tough to see the bickering and finger pointing on this board between the classes. The bottom line is this. The Wichita facility is very expensive to rent, and without the revenue from the 4A fans, the tournament went into the hole in a huge way. If you will remember, the new facility downtown had not yet been discussed as an option when this potential problem surfaced. At least, thats how I remember it from 5 or 6 years ago. The Coliseum was to be renovated, it was not going to be available for a few years, and the 4A reps went out and got the BiCentennial Center as a two or three year fix until the Coliseum was available again or the new arena downtown was built. At NO time was it meant to be a final soultion. During this time the new arena was proposed, and because of that the Coliseum renovation was delayed until the cost of the new arena was determined. There are only so many tax dollars to go around, after all. SO.....there was no great conspiracy to totally alienate Kansas wrestlers from the rest of the wrestling world, there was NO effort from KSHSAA to reduce the amount of exosure of Kansas wrestlers to colleges, and there was NO conspiracy from the 4A coaches to break free from the deep confines of the darkest corners of the Wichita Coliseum. That is simply how things evolved. I agree that it is unfortunate that the 5 and 6 A tournament will be held at a high school or single tournament facility. It will reduce the atmosphere to that of a large tournament. BUT, it will still be the state tournament, and if you can't get up and motivated for that, you probably should not be wasting your time wrestling because some kid will be hungry and wanting a title....and he won't care if it's wrestled in a barn out in a pasture in western Kansas!
Posted By: GT Williams Re: KSHSAA delivers yet another blow! - 05/08/07 12:54 PM
You know the whole thing with Kansas and their wrestling venues is a real disappointment. I grew up in Missouri and did not go through this as a kid. Now we live in Kansas and we all have to put up with the facilities issue, especially for youth wrestling here in District 1. I understand there are no level 1 arenas in the state that are available, and K-State and KU cannot rent theirs, but to hold a highschool state meet in a highschool gym is a real letdown and an embarassment. My inlaws live in Iowa and my parents live in Missouri. Look at the way they run their HS state tournaments over there, then compare to KS. This tournament should be the highlight of a young man or woman's highschool career, not some backwater filler event. Whoever decided this should be brought to task. If we want our kids to wrestle on a national stage and the event to mean something, it should never be in a HS gym. We have kids vying for scholarship money and this is not the way to help them. It is clear, the tournament should be divided- using Wichita, Hays, Salina or Topeka arenas as a venue. We can bemoan the crappy state facilities all we want but to bring out of state guests to a HS state tournament being held in a HS gym would make us the laughinstock of the midwest and will be a step in the wrong direction, just showcasing our inability to keep up with our neighbors. This needs to be redone.
Posted By: steph Re: KSHSAA delivers yet another blow! - 05/08/07 04:47 PM
GT ,
I totally agree w/ you....I grew up in Iowa, we would get out of school and bused to Des Moines for the State Tourny ( this was 18 yrs ago )...it was and still is a very big deal in Iowa to the wrestlers, families, cheerleaders, towns, etc....when I told my son this, he could not believe it....

Then when we lived in Lincoln, NE for 4 yrs...the State Tourny was at the Bob Devany Sports Center ( Uni of NEB ) every year...huge deal..the last year we lived there, was a battle between Omaha and Lincoln to host the State Wrestling Tourny...Omaha won

what I'm trying to get at...is like what GT said...it is a huge accomplishment and a great experiance to make it to State ...

...but this news is disappointing....
Posted By: GT Williams Re: KSHSAA delivers yet another blow! - 05/08/07 05:20 PM
Steph-Maybe some don't realize but the Iowa State High School wrestling tournament is one of, if the premier high school events in any sport, in the country. 3 or 4 days in the largest coliseum in the state, used to be Vets Auditorium, but now the new building next door. All day long for 3 or 4 days, all classes together, it is something every wrestling fan should go to once in their life. All from this state which has almost the same population as Kansas. I know we have poor facilities and cannot have all the classes together, but to deny these kids the chance to wrestle in a forum like an auditorium is sad. This is one of the ways we can improve and promote the sport in Kansas. This is my son's third year this year, and I could not believe three years ago the level of wrestling in this state, it was that good. We had (have) kids go all over the country and compete with the best at all the levels and do very well, and we need to promote and support that. Having the state tournament in a HS gym is a slap in the face and a step backward. It is saying we are mediocre and don't care.
Posted By: Shelstin Re: KSHSAA delivers yet another blow! - 05/08/07 05:34 PM
All of those states just discussed have very successful D1 wrestling programs that will bend over backwards to help promote their high school kids. What we hear in Kansas is that those "basketball" arenas are not available during the time frames needed. Does anyone else see that correlation? Until we get rolling with a D1 program, we will always be second class to the "punkin pounders". I honestly believe that Texas will have a D1 program before Kansas. A lot of those Texas kids are getting tough!
Posted By: GT Williams Re: KSHSAA delivers yet another blow! - 05/08/07 07:04 PM
Shelstin, I don't see the correlation between D1 in other states and KS 5A and 6A having to wrestle their state tournament in a HS gym. MO, IA and NE all have their state tournaments in gyms that the state universities do not wrestle in.
Posted By: Chief Renegade Re: KSHSAA delivers yet another blow! - 05/08/07 07:25 PM
Tom,
He's talking about taking the sport more seriously. States that have DI wrestling have a higher level of cooperation from business entities in the state. The success of MU has enhanced the overall respect that wrestling receives in Missouri.
Posted By: GT Williams Re: KSHSAA delivers yet another blow! - 05/08/07 08:40 PM
Eric- That part I get. But Wichita St, K-State or KU having wrestling won't necessarily make someone in Kansas build an arena large enought to hold these functions in. Let's face it, Kansas is not a "destination" type state-people don't come here to view sporting events or entertainment, except maybe college sports. The issue of D1 sports is way more complicated and expensive than most posters on this site seem to understand. For example, Mizzou was #1 in NCAA polls for much of the year and their highest duel competition attendance was less than 3,000, and that was virtually free to get in. Yet the MO state high school tournaments draw many thousands, just like KS does. We need to support these venues and get these in decent arenas. These events are what make the sport great- these are what kids dream about and hold with them for a lifetime. Read, if you haven't yet, the Sports Illustrated article about Iowa wrestling, it was one of the best I have ever seen. A great quote, or paraphrase by me, from that article by Tom Brands, talking about his high school days on a bus ride home from Vets Arena-State Tournament- "No matter what you do the rest of your life, you will always be a state champion...." Do you guys see kids thinking that when they ride home from Olathe Northwest, or do you see 10 year olds sitting in the stands at Olathe Northwest dreaming of wrestling there someday? I don't.
Posted By: sportsfan02 Re: KSHSAA delivers yet another blow! - 05/08/07 10:49 PM
 Originally Posted By: GT Williams
or do you see 10 year olds sitting in the stands at Olathe Northwest dreaming of wrestling there someday? I don't.

Unfortunately most of the ten year olds will be sitting in the bleachers of another high school waiting to wrestle their own match. This because some parent or coach thinks missing that one week will retard their kids wrestling future.
Posted By: Kale Mann Re: KSHSAA delivers yet another blow! - 05/08/07 11:31 PM
 Originally Posted By: GT Williams
- "No matter what you do the rest of your life, you will always be a state champion...." Do you guys see kids thinking that when they ride home from Olathe Northwest,


Yes! I too wish it could be in a larger arena, but a state champ will still be a state champ!
Posted By: RichardDSalyer Re: KSHSAA delivers yet another blow! - 05/09/07 02:02 AM
KSHSAA NEWS RELEASE - DISASTER RELIEF FOR KANSAS
Posted By: Chief Renegade Re: KSHSAA delivers yet another blow! - 07/02/07 05:14 PM
 Originally Posted By: Egg
And with all due respect for you Red, do you honestly think these two tournaments would have been assigned to these venues if there were better options? And as far as atmosphere, these two facilities will have worse atmosphere than what was had at Wichita!?!?



Will 6A state at Olathe Northwest High School have a worse atmosphere than what was had at Wichita? YES, and it won't even be close. Wichita still had that big arena feel to it. From driving up to the building, the capacity, seating etc. From top to bottom it is not even close! This decision is an embarrassment and deserves to be overturned. We should all do everything we can to fix this. To have a High School career end at a High School gym in 2008 makes the stomach sink in every kid, when told what he has to look forward to. Is there anyone who thinks this is OK?
Posted By: LancerLou Re: KSHSAA delivers yet another blow! - 07/02/07 07:24 PM
I agree that having 6a at ONW is very disappointing. Sunflower League was held at ONW in 2006 and although it is a very nice high school gym, it is still just a gym. It was crowded with only the 12 schools from League. I can't imagine the crowds from all 32 6a schools fitting into that space. Will they exceed the occupancy limits and be forced to close the doors to some spectators? That happened at District 1 Kids in 2006. The Fire Marshall shut down entry to the facility at Mid-American Nazarene University until people exited. Parents missed seeing their own kids wrestle and some had traveled a far distance only to be locked out of the building.

In addition, the atmosphere is underwhelming. A State Championship should be a destination, a place where you don't wrestle everyday duals or tournaments. Is there any hope for a change?
Posted By: lwayne Re: KSHSAA delivers yet another blow! - 07/05/07 04:10 PM
For 20+ years we have had the tournament in Wichita. That is the only place we can have at least 8 mats on the floor. When the coaches from 4a lobbied for their own tournament and they pulled out the income to support the Wichita arena was cut by 33%, however the expenses was approx. the same. The state had no option but to go back to high schools. If one wants to blame someone, the schools need only to look in the mirror. If you want it back together start to lobby to have it in the new arena in Wichita in a couple of years but that needs to happen now. Go to a three day tournament, all schools leave at noon anyway start the tournament at 6 pm Thursday night and we can get all classes together. Talk to the state, call your AD's and your league reps. send letters to KSHSAA, they will listen, they did it when 4A wanted their own tournament.......
Posted By: usawks1 Re: KSHSAA delivers yet another blow! - 07/05/07 10:21 PM
fyi ... Ft. Hays State had 8 mats on the floor for Southern Plains!
Posted By: sportsfan02 Re: KSHSAA delivers yet another blow! - 07/05/07 11:42 PM
 Originally Posted By: usawks1
fyi ... Ft. Hays State had 8 mats on the floor for Southern Plains!

And how much seating capacity?
Posted By: lwayne Re: KSHSAA delivers yet another blow! - 07/06/07 04:36 PM
In 1980 Ft. Hayes State hosted the NAIA Nationals with 6 mats on the floor. However they removed all seating on the floor till the second day. It was also a 3 day tournament. A high school state championship would require 6-7 thousand seats and more if it had all classes. Goodland held the state tournament in the early 70's but only used 3 mats. Guys look at these three requirements, 8-9 mats, 6-7000 seats, motels for out of town schools. Then consider location not for the East or the West but for everyone. I do think inviting the Kids programs to get in free or maybe they could be the towel tappers, runners, mat cleaning etc. This would draw the parents of those kids to the tournament. Line up a kids dual between sessions perhaps. If they only had 4,5,6A why don't they simacast the other tournament on a large monitor so both arena's could view the other matches. If you want it combined come up with a proposal and talk to Rick. You better be looking at the Wichita Facility Downtown for 2009 and do it now......
Posted By: sportsfan02 Re: KSHSAA delivers yet another blow! - 07/06/07 06:31 PM
 Originally Posted By: lwayne
In 1980 Ft. Hayes State hosted the NAIA Nationals with 6 mats on the floor. However they removed all seating on the floor till the second day. It was also a 3 day tournament. A high school state championship would require 6-7 thousand seats and more if it had all classes. Goodland held the state tournament in the early 70's but only used 3 mats. Guys look at these three requirements, 8-9 mats, 6-7000 seats, motels for out of town schools. Then consider location not for the East or the West but for everyone. I do think inviting the Kids programs to get in free or maybe they could be the towel tappers, runners, mat cleaning etc. This would draw the parents of those kids to the tournament. Line up a kids dual between sessions perhaps. If they only had 4,5,6A why don't they simacast the other tournament on a large monitor so both arena's could view the other matches. If you want it combined come up with a proposal and talk to Rick. You better be looking at the Wichita Facility Downtown for 2009 and do it now......

I think your estimate for the number of seats required is a bit short. I don't know what the Coliseum holds with the ice rink in place but the last several years when all three classes were there for the finals, it was at capacity. I'm guessing 10k would not be too much for future requirements. I do agree, the time to be making contracts with Sedgwick County for the new arena, is now. That will give all parties plenty of opportunity to address and settle old grievances.
Posted By: Chief Renegade Re: KSHSAA delivers yet another blow! - 07/06/07 09:41 PM
Rick Bowden confirmed with me today that they are still searching for a site for 6A State. 5A State will not be at the arena in Hutch, but will be held at Hutchison High School. It will be interesting that the host of the 5A State tournament might just be wrestling at 6A State.

I wonder if it would be possible for KSHSAA to be more forthcoming and open about which venues were inquired about? I know that Rick Fields at Mid-America Nazarene had not heard from anyone at KSHSAA. Do Rick Bowden or Gary Musselman ever post on this forum? It is the ONLY source of information that most wrestlers and families have about wrestling. Why is this forum "below" them, that they would not at all be interested in responding as to the status of Kansas wrestling?

What circumstances caused 4A to back out of the 4-5-6A tournament? Did it damage the rest of 5 and 6A kids chances of wrestling at a large venue? Were the negotiations botched while trying to secure 5-6A at the Wichita Coliseum? Did they play hard ball and wait too long and cause the Coliseum to call their bluff and schedule the venue for a more interested party?

Are these questions that anyone else is wondering?

- Eric Johnson
Posted By: RichardDSalyer Re: KSHSAA delivers yet another blow! - 07/06/07 11:55 PM
 Originally Posted By: Chief Renegade
Are these questions that anyone else is wondering?

- Eric Johnson


Perhaps some, but certainly not those in the know!

Many of us know the answers to nearly all the questions you pose.

On May 3, 2007 when this thread was started Olathe NW had already declined to host the 6A tournament, however I did not wish to reply and correct Will's post.

Posted By: RichardDSalyer Re: KSHSAA delivers yet another blow! - 07/07/07 09:53 AM
 Originally Posted By: Chief Renegade
Rick Bowden confirmed with me today that they are still searching for a site for 6A State. 5A State will not be at the arena in Hutch, but will be held at Hutchison High School. It will be interesting that the host of the 5A State tournament might just be wrestling at 6A State.
- Eric Johnson


Salt Hawk Activity Center
Hutchinson High School

This recently built multi-use facility seats approximately 2,800 people.



Posted By: sportsfan02 Re: KSHSAA delivers yet another blow! - 07/07/07 11:37 AM
I am guessing the KWCA meeting this fall will be very interesting. By the way, how many of you 5 and 6A coaches belong to the KWCA? How many of you make a habit of attending the meetings?
Posted By: RichardDSalyer Re: KSHSAA delivers yet another blow! - 07/07/07 01:29 PM
 Originally Posted By: sportsfan02
By the way, how many of you 5 and 6A coaches belong to the KWCA? How many of you make a habit of attending the meetings?


2006-2007 KWCA Membership Roster:(including assistant coaches)

3-2-1A
86 Participating High Schools
61 Coaches

4A
59 Participating High Schools
63 Coaches

5A
32 Participating High Schools
50 Coaches

6A
32 Participating High Schools
73 Coaches
Posted By: Chief Renegade Re: KSHSAA delivers yet another blow! - 07/07/07 03:20 PM
 Originally Posted By: RichardDSalyer
 Originally Posted By: Chief Renegade
Are these questions that anyone else is wondering?

- Eric Johnson


Perhaps some, but certainly not those in the know!

Many of us know the answers to nearly all the questions you pose.

On May 3, 2007 when this thread was started Olathe NW had already declined to host the 6A tournament, however I did not wish to reply and correct Will's post.



That is exactly my point. Richard, you are the first to correct any mistakes on this forum. Why did you purposely leave Will's post uncorrected? How could you enjoy the angst that the wrestling community felt when you knew that it wasn't true? Was that a lesson that you were teaching? Who are those "in the know"? Who are the "many of us" that know nearly all of the answers that I posed, but are guarding the truth at all costs? I am glad that you at least came clean on your position. You can get help for that.

- Eric Johnson
Posted By: RichardDSalyer Re: KSHSAA delivers yet another blow! - 07/07/07 05:28 PM
 Originally Posted By: Chief Renegade
Why did you purposely leave Will's post uncorrected?
- Eric Johnson


While I consider Will a friend I do not hold him in the god like status which you seem to do.

 Originally Posted By: Chief Renegade
How could you enjoy the angst that the wrestling community felt when you knew that it wasn't true?
- Eric Johnson


The only angst I was able to ascertain was on the part of your clique.

 Originally Posted By: Chief Renegade
Was that a lesson that you were teaching?
- Eric Johnson


I have a different philosophy of the intent and purpose of this forum - that of a source of factual information - and not a source for gossip and idle chat - or posting garbage about Waunita or an individuals feeble ramblings. There was no "lesson" involved, only a personal choice on my behalf to not participate in another of Will's rants.

 Originally Posted By: Chief Renegade
Who are the "many of us" that know nearly all of the answers that I posed, but are guarding the truth at all costs?
- Eric Johnson


I am unaware of anyone "guarding the truth at all costs" and do not feel it is my obligation to answer all questions on this forum. As in all communities, certain alliances are formed and I attempt to stay neutral, or in the alternative form an alliance of "ONE".

 Originally Posted By: Chief Renegade
I am glad that you at least came clean on your position. You can get help for that.
- Eric Johnson


What position did I come "clean on" and what position do I need to seek "help for"?
Posted By: usawks1 Re: KSHSAA delivers yet another blow! - 07/07/07 06:16 PM
A few of us know, that Sir Richard gathers great delight at the expense of others. Whether it be knowledge of partial truths, whether it be recollections that others have forgotten, Richard does have a way to make others feel less than informed or creditable!

Richard is at times ... less than helpful but he will stand by that position, as he has done so. However, in his defense, if you ask a direct question of Richard he will give you a direct answer.

As to whether Richard "needs help?" Richard himself delivers the answer ... as only Richard can! As for me, I would expect nothing less than his answer.
Posted By: Chief Renegade Re: KSHSAA delivers yet another blow! - 07/07/07 08:39 PM
 Originally Posted By: RichardDSalyer
 Originally Posted By: Chief Renegade
Why did you purposely leave Will's post uncorrected?
- Eric Johnson


While I consider Will a friend I do not hold him in the god like status which you seem to do.

 Originally Posted By: Chief Renegade
How could you enjoy the angst that the wrestling community felt when you knew that it wasn't true?
- Eric Johnson


The only angst I was able to ascertain was on the part of your clique.

 Originally Posted By: Chief Renegade
Was that a lesson that you were teaching?
- Eric Johnson


I have a different philosophy of the intent and purpose of this forum - that of a source of factual information - and not a source for gossip and idle chat - or posting garbage about Waunita or an individuals feeble ramblings. There was no "lesson" involved, only a personal choice on my behalf to not participate in another of Will's rants.

 Originally Posted By: Chief Renegade
Who are the "many of us" that know nearly all of the answers that I posed, but are guarding the truth at all costs?
- Eric Johnson


I am unaware of anyone "guarding the truth at all costs" and do not feel it is my obligation to answer all questions on this forum. As in all communities, certain alliances are formed and I attempt to stay neutral, or in the alternative form an alliance of "ONE".

 Originally Posted By: Chief Renegade
I am glad that you at least came clean on your position. You can get help for that.
- Eric Johnson


What position did I come "clean on" and what position do I need to seek "help for"?



A little help with the meaning of the word forum. It is a public discussion or expression of ideas. A source of factual information would be found in a dictionary, reference book or the Bible.

- Eric Johnson
Posted By: adistar87 Re: KSHSAA delivers yet another blow! - 07/09/07 04:39 AM
From a competitors view, i was upset seeing 4a move to salina, i could no longer walk 50 feet and watch my freinds from other high schools compete, and coaches that helped trained me in the summers couldn't watch me or other kids they have helped. Its time to unite....No high school senior should be forced to wrestle possibly his last matches in a HS gym...thats just horrible

After watching the 456a wrestling for 12 years in wichita and seeing the 321a state in hays the last 3 years, Im not that overly impressed with the crowd. Dont get me wrong its a cool atmosphere. but I think the reason some many small schools love it cause it is small. They pack around 5,000 in hays for the finals? (just a guess) and in wichita it was probabbly close to double that. Could you imagine combining the two together. So many people want to complain that it would be to crowded. Get over it, sacrfice a little. Coming from someone that wrestled in the finals in wichita, that stage and atmosphere is amamzing, but if you add another 5000 people and a whole another state tourney, It improves ten-fold.

The reason Topeka does not host the Kansas State Tourney, is because of the Circus that comes to town every year on that same weekend. Perhaps the Board should look into another idea, perhaps allowing more time after regionals to state, allowing two weeks...perhaps that would free up the Expo Centre and make it available

Just my thoughts.........
Posted By: sportsfan02 Re: KSHSAA delivers yet another blow! - 07/09/07 12:19 PM
 Originally Posted By: Chief Renegade
 Originally Posted By: RichardDSalyer
 Originally Posted By: Chief Renegade
Why did you purposely leave Will's post uncorrected?
- Eric Johnson


While I consider Will a friend I do not hold him in the god like status which you seem to do.

 Originally Posted By: Chief Renegade
How could you enjoy the angst that the wrestling community felt when you knew that it wasn't true?
- Eric Johnson


The only angst I was able to ascertain was on the part of your clique.

 Originally Posted By: Chief Renegade
Was that a lesson that you were teaching?
- Eric Johnson


I have a different philosophy of the intent and purpose of this forum - that of a source of factual information - and not a source for gossip and idle chat - or posting garbage about Waunita or an individuals feeble ramblings. There was no "lesson" involved, only a personal choice on my behalf to not participate in another of Will's rants.

 Originally Posted By: Chief Renegade
Who are the "many of us" that know nearly all of the answers that I posed, but are guarding the truth at all costs?
- Eric Johnson


I am unaware of anyone "guarding the truth at all costs" and do not feel it is my obligation to answer all questions on this forum. As in all communities, certain alliances are formed and I attempt to stay neutral, or in the alternative form an alliance of "ONE".

 Originally Posted By: Chief Renegade
I am glad that you at least came clean on your position. You can get help for that.
- Eric Johnson


What position did I come "clean on" and what position do I need to seek "help for"?



A little help with the meaning of the word forum. It is a public discussion or expression of ideas. A source of factual information would be found in a dictionary, reference book or the Bible.

- Eric Johnson

Maybe when we edit posts we should as some boards require, post the reason for the edit. Such examples are, "grammar", "spelling", "removed a personal attack", etc.
Posted By: Scott Fausset Re: KSHSAA delivers yet another blow! - 07/10/07 01:49 PM
Richard: you posted numbers for the
"2006-2007 KWCA Membership Roster:(including assistant coaches)"...interesting numbers.

Do you know how many kids are associated with each of those divisions?
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