Hey everyone, just wondering how sharky is doing in takedowns this year?
who cares. takedowns are an inflated stat. Some of the really good wrestlers out there don't play with weaker opponents by repeatedly taking a wrestler down and letting him up. This is the one thing in wrestling that bugs the crap out of me. I also don't want to hear that the really good wrestler needs the work or needs the conditioning. They are not getting that much more work by repeatedly taking the guy down because obviously it is not that hard if they can do it over and over again. I would like to hear some feedback on this and i am sorry to stryofoam for venting on his post, just some thoughts of mine came to mind.
It's working pretty good for Brett Metcalf....
24/7
was at tournament recently where good wrestler was doing this constantly his footing slipped and ended up getting pinned by a second year wrestler
if my son was opponent would rather him get pinned then repeatedly taken down
I disagree that takedowns are an inflated stat. If a kid is good on his feet, yet a weaker mat wrester, how can you expect him not to work where he is best? Compare it to a football team without a good running back but with a great QB and receivers. Would you expect a team to run? How is it any different than a kid that uses his two point tilts very effectively, yet seldom pins? I agree that I hate to see any kid embarassed on the mat, but I would never complain. If you get taken down at will, you simply need to get better.
Just ask any wrestler who, in front of his coach, team-mates, family, friends and neutral spectators, has been unnecessarily subjected to repeated take-downs, by an obviously superior opponent. It brings to mind a cat toying with a mouse. For what purpose ... aside that he can? It's embarassing. It's unnecessary. Just "stick-em", and get it over with. Let the inferior wrestler preserve a little of what remains of his athletic self-worth. I side with K.C. Handballer!
I see both sides of this. My Dad really hates watching a wrestler that takes someone down and lets them up. He thinks it is bs. But I also see the side that I understand if someone is really good on there feet, and not being so great on the mat.
Here was the rule my coach gave me when I was in school. After the third takedown, if the score was not close. I would not be allowed to let him back up. He and my dad always made me work for a pin.
But trust me I believe if your good on your feet, its a art form. And nothing else makes you better then being on your feet against someone new and with different styles.
oh my gosh KC Handballer, you took the words right out of my mouth. I think that the wrestlers who "play" with their opponents show absolutely NO SPORTSMANSHIP and hurt the integrity of wrestling. It is just like a basketball coach leaving in all of his starters when they are ahead by over 30 points in the fourth quarter so that they can "get more practice" or leaving in a star running-back when they are already ahead by over 20 points in a football game so "his numbers will be higher". No matter what the reason, it's wrong.
Shelstin, I agree that there are wrestlers out there who are better at the takedowns than on the mat but they usually don't just takedown their opponent, let them up, take them down, let them up repeatedly the entire period. They at least try to work their opponent on the mat. If they don't at least try, they will never get become a better mat wrestler. (a football team without a good running back will still at least try to run a few times during the game so the running back can improve). There is no call for the so called "show-offs" who like to toy with their opponents.
I was so mad at a team earlier this year who had a wrestler that toyed with one of our teammates. And then to top it all off, their coaches were laughing on the sidelines. They thought it was the funniest thing they seen. No respect was given to our guys so no respect for any of their wrestlers or coaches. It has been over a month but I am still steamed about the situation. I am now eagerly waiting and hoping that this wrestler gets beat (justice would be to have him "played with" by a better opponent as well but that probably won't happen)
I also agree. If a wrestler is better on his feet then it's his choice to pick top, bottom, or neutral. I think what everyone here is talking about is the wrestler who is obviously superior in every aspect of wrestling. The people I'm talking about aren't the ones who barely get by. They're the ones who consistently take down their opponent, tilt them for 2 or 3 back points, then LET them up. The entire time they do this they are watching the score and somehow with their inferior mat skills miraculously seem to pin their opponent just a point or two shy of a tech fall. I think this is the wrestler that bothers a lot of us.
KC Handballer
Dual wins are really irrelevant. Teams and wrestlers get wins when the other team has an open weight. You shouldnt get a win unless you wrestle someone, unless it is a tourney and the guy has an injury. I think they are glorified practices. Colby's results in duals prove it. I mean only one of those duals was relatively close. Anytime the other team gets outscored 80-0, that defines practice to me. Now i am not trashing the Colby program or anything like that, i am just trashing duals. I think the fact that there is not state records on dual wins in a season also proves my point. Tourney results are more telling of your team than duals.
just my opinion.
who cares. takedowns are an inflated stat. Some of the really good wrestlers out there don't play with weaker opponents by repeatedly taking a wrestler down and letting him up. This is the one thing in wrestling that bugs the crap out of me. I also don't want to hear that the really good wrestler needs the work or needs the conditioning. They are not getting that much more work by repeatedly taking the guy down because obviously it is not that hard if they can do it over and over again. I would like to hear some feedback on this and i am sorry to stryofoam for venting on his post, just some thoughts of mine came to mind.
Dual wins are irrelevant or just practice well yeah but at least I can host 4 to 5 home events per year so all the young kids can watch wrestling because we know the basketball team is at home at least that much.
Takedowns are inflated yeah if your running the score up on a weaker wrestler probably but most matches at the state tournament will be won on a takedown.
Just wondering what you liked about wrestling?
A lot of this is coaching also. If the coach told the kid to do that you really cant fault the kid, because you have to listen to your coach. I would like to have a coach comment if this is something that is idea of the coach or wrestler. Just to clarify i am talking about the dominant wrestler who is toying with the weaker opponent and pins him right before the tech fall, i am not talking about the wrestler who struggles on the ground and has to be on his feet to win. I really want to hear a coach defend this kind of wrestling, i dont see how it benefits anyone to wrestle like this.
How do you defend poor sportsmanship? Besides, who likes a bully? We root against them ... anyway, I do. Just wanted to throw that out there.
I am going back a few years, but Coach McBee from Dodge City had teams that were great on their feet. Their goal was to get three takedowns in the first period and take a 6-2 lead going into the second. If they could do that, they felt that they could not lose. They were solid on the low level singles and finishes. You had to prepare for that. By the same token, when Coach Gable was at St Francis, or Coach Flores was at Leoti, you knew that you had to defend the cradle. You prepared for that as well. However, there IS a difference in wrestling hard on your feet, and "toying" with an opponent. There is NO excuse for opposing coaches to be laughing at an opponent for his lack of ability.
If I had a kid that was superior, I would always let them work their takedowns the first period. After that, they needed to be working for the fall. But, as Matt said, state titles are usually won on your feet.
Dual wins are irrelevant or just practice well yeah but at least I can host 4 to 5 home events per year so all the young kids can watch wrestling because we know the basketball team is at home at least that much.
Takedowns are inflated yeah if your running the score up on a weaker wrestler probably but most matches at the state tournament will be won on a takedown.
Just wondering what you liked about wrestling? [/quote]
I like just about everything about wrestling. You make a good and valid point about the duals and getting to wrestle in front of your family and friends, i stand down on my duals argument. as far as the state tournament will be won with a take down, no freakin way, thanks for educating me. i was talking about the demeaning and the bad sportmanship when a dominant wrestler is toying with a weak wrestler and pins him right before the tech fall. If you are bad at wrestling on the mat, fine, then you should never be able to pin anyone then and win on a tech fall everytime. When you are taking down and letting the wrestler back up then pin him in 2 seconds, that is toying and that is the type of wrestling i am talking about.
I agree they need to work on things. i am talking about the extreme situation when the score is 20 to 10 after the first period. That is the type of wrestling that is uncalled for.
I don't think it's bad sportsmanship to try and win a match by scoring points by any means necessary to win. You don't revieve points in wrestling for illegal moves or unsportsmanlike conduct, and trying to tech fall a kid if they're terrible on their feet isn't bad sportsmanship, it's smart. Someone alluded to football earlier, so here's another: you're going to throw the ball to 6'5'' recievers who can run 4.4 40's when the d-backs are 5'5'' and run 5.0's.
Brett Shoffner:
I think that you miss the point. The objectionable behavior is when an obviously superior wrestler, who, for no better reason than because he can, simply chooses to unnecessarily embarrass his obviously inferior opponent by calling attention to his opponent's inferior experience, strength and/or skills. We are not talking about an evenly matched contest. We are referring to a grossly uneven contest, where one wrestler has far superior experience, strength, talent and/or skills, and simply chooses to publicly humiliate and/or embarrass his lesser opponent.
I too, as a parent witnessed such a spectacle at the expense of my own son's self-esteem (as an aside, to his credit, this son used this experience, as motivation, and didn't let this embarrassment forever take the winds out of his wrestling sails. He went on to a fine high school wrestling career) But I distinctly remember the crushed expression on his face as he sheepishly exited the mat and the smug expression of his opponent and his coaches. There was nothing my son's coaches, his family or his fans could do or say to console him and/or assauge his damaged ego. To this day, my blood pressure rises at the thought of that moment (I should also mention that my son would be utterly embarrassed that I have chosen to broadcast this episode in this forum)
In my opinion, this conduct is indefensable. It is unsportsmanlike. It is unnecessary. It is however perfectly legal. So, I suppose that if that is your idea of competition, have at it. To each his own. But always remember, I don't think too many of us root for a bully. We want them to have their comeuppance. Anyway, I do.
I think your real id is KC Ballhandler.
I can see a wrestler taking down another opponent over and over to build a small lead, but doing it repeatedly is stalling and is not being called by the refs.
I can see a wrestler taking down another opponent over and over to build a small lead, but doing it repeatedly is stalling and is not being called by the refs.
It is not being called by the refs because it is absolutely NOT stalling. From page 28 of the NFHS rule book:
ART 4... It is stalling when the contestant in the advantage position:
a) Does not wrestle aggressively and attempts to secure a fall,
except when the wrestler intentionally releases the opponent in order to thereafter immediately attempt to secure a takedown.
I take all these insults personally. You call these kinds of wrestlers bad sports, and say they're showing off and what not, but I can assure you I'm not a bad sport, nor have I ever displayed poor sportsmanship. There are several reasons I did it, and none of them were to embarass my opponents. As for the self esteem statement, come on, it's wrestling. If a kids worried about his self esteem, then he's in the wrong sport. Every wrestler has had some lumps at some time in their career and their self esteem has been hurt from it, it's part of the sport.
I personally have had two wrestlers in the last two years who have tried to break the takedown record at our highschool,it stands at 107(one wrestler is 30 away from breaking it). Is that any different than other sports where, sacks and home runs are counted? Does Barry Bonds feel bad when he strikes out more times than he gets on base? Does he feel "bad" for embarassing the pithcer? We are, I am speaking as a coach, trying to get all kids to that level-taking people down at will. Coach Mills is right in that most State titles are decided by a takedown, we lost a state title last year by a takedown.
I was embarassed in school many times, I didn't find the salvation of wrestling till my sophmore year, one from Jeremy Vath sticks out clearly. Do we want them to be men? I have two young sons and I understand that they will get beat badly at times, wrestling is about "dominating" another opponenet-not about worrying about his self-esteem. This sport is too damn tough to think about those things while you are out there, you do what works-if that is taking someone down and letting them up then so be it. Neither of my former wrestlers ever teched someone by doing this, but 7 or 8 takedowns before pinning someone has happened.
Now I am, and will always be for, good sportsmanship-the rules state that it is only un-sportsman like if you let them up from their back or near-fall position. I do not tell them to do this, and I have chewed wrestlers out who show poor sportsmanship. You will never see me laughing at another wrestler, at my own perhaps, but never at an opponenet. Once again, this sport demands that we be gentlpeople off the mat-and animals on it!
Just my two-cents, sorry if I ruffled some feathers. I do not condone embarassing someone-but I have no problem dominating them.
Coach Brown
SVO69:
No, I didn't. I think you missed mine. Read my football metaphor again. It's called winning by any means necessary. Plus, I hate to say this for fear of backlash, but if the kid is that embarassed he can always lay down. Some kids in high school are trying to impress college coaches to get a free education, and takedown skills is something they (the coaches) want to see, to be honest once again.
I take all these insults personally. You call these kinds of wrestlers bad sports, and say they're showing off and what not, but I can assure you I'm not a bad sport, nor have I ever displayed poor sportsmanship. There are several reasons I did it, and none of them were to embarass my opponents. As for the self esteem statement, come on, it's wrestling. If a kids worried about his self esteem, then he's in the wrong sport. Every wrestler has had some lumps at some time in their career and their self esteem has been hurt from it, it's part of the sport.
My definition of unsportsmanlike behavior IS 'if the opponent is of significantly lesser ability than you', and you continue to let them up and take them down. I have no problem with letting an opponent of near or better abilities, up as a tactic.
Back to the original question, how is Sharky doing on his takedowns this year.
I don't have a problem with taking a kid down and letting him up if its done right. Meaning, when we have our kids do this in the usa program we are having them do a different takedown every time, usually if they are very dominant over their opponent we will have them do different takedowns that the wrestler is not real comfortable with yet, that gives them a chance to try these moves and yes it is about having mat time. I have even had kids coaches on more than one occassion ask us not to pin their wrestler because it was their first year and they needed mat time. It does benefit both wrestlers whether some people want to believe it or not. A wrestler that is taken down and let up has more opportunity to defend a takedown or learn to defend a takedown. What is the wrestler that gets taken down and pinned in 30 sec. learning? Usually, how many lights are in the gym.
Now, I don't like it when a wrestler lets his opponent up and then shoves him half way across the mat, I do consider that unsportsman. I guess their are two ways of looking at it,
1. If the wrestler does this type of wrestling with class and they are trying to work different moves each time, I personally do not have a problem with.
2. If the wrestler is doing this type of wrestling and being real arrogant about it and just flat being mean and disrespectful to his opponent, Then yes I do have a problem with it.
There is a differance, and we as coaches and parents need to make sure our kids are doing this the right way and for the right reasons, and it will benefit both wrestlers.
I don't think that there is anything wrong with a kid getting as many takedowns as they can. If somebody doesn't like it who cares the name of the game is to score points. For it making a kid look bad sorry get better so you don't have this happen to them. Look at a kid like sharky he's fun to watch from his feet. Alot of the times he's hitting a different takedown each time so he's just not doing the samething.
It is not that I have any problem with take downs, irregardless of the number of take downs in a given match - provided it is done in the spirit of "competition". Same can be said for hard-nosed, aggressive wrestling. But ... in a non-competitive match (where one opponent holds clear, obvious advantage) to simply "toy" with an opponent, simply because you can, the effect of which causes unnecessary embarrassment and/or humuliation to an opponent, and/or serves as an opportunity for the superior wrestler to do no more than "show-off" in front of his coach, teammates and/or fans ... I find that type of wrestling to be unsportsmanlike. Sorry. Legal, but unsportsmanlike. Reduced to its essence: Be gracious in victory and defeat. My last 2 cents.
If your really trying to work on something fine, but once you get them to their back end it. I dont care what anyone says when you are two inches from pinning someone then just let them up that is bad sportmanship. Forget about embarrassing the weaker wrestler you look like a complete a$$ when you do it. That is bad sportmanship no matter what anyone says. I wanted arguments on the repeated take downs and i got some good and valid arguements. I will keep your ideas in mind when i witness it happen again to see what the wrestlers intent is. I still dont agree with it but that is my opinion.
First, I thought that the tech fall was put in to prevent humiliation. Before that if you had a major decision you were not allowed to let the opponent up. Second, if you can take your opponent down and you can escape, then your chances of winning are huge.( ask a college coach about that) Third, every time you take your opponent down, the odds of taking them down straight to their back increases.
I can see a wrestler taking down another opponent over and over to build a small lead, but doing it repeatedly is stalling and is not being called by the refs.
There is absolutely no way this is stalling, and any official that would call it as such should be taken off of the mat. I HAVE seen an official make an unsortsmanlike call against a kid who let his opponent up from a 3 point near fall situation when a fall was imminent. That is a different situation entirely. The more I think about this, the more I feel like takedowns are the most important and exciting part of wrestling, and taking a wrestler down repeatedly is not poor sportsmanship.
hey cokeley,
i am confused over your post, "kc ballhandler". What are you trying to say there. Can you clarify this for me. I think it is real clever how you switched the two names around though. It takes and educated man to make something like that up. As they say on the guiness commercials, "Brilliant!!"
P.S. 3rd grade called, it wants it's joke back.
I apologize as the thought never occured to me that Handballer might be your real lastname. I just thought it was your forum alias.
not my last name. I just play the sport of handball. (similar to racquetball, except with your hands and a different type of ball). No harm done.
hey cokeley,
i am confused over your post, "kc ballhandler". What are you trying to say there. Can you clarify this for me. I think it is real clever how you switched the two names around though. It takes and educated man to make something like that up. As they say on the guiness commercials, "Brilliant!!"
P.S. 3rd grade called, it wants it's joke back.
He does that to everyone. It's just his way of being disrespectful to people with differing points of view.
I agree that letting an opponent off their back and letting them up in a pin situation is unsportsmanlike but that is not so with getting multiple takedowns. As a wrestler who has been on both sides of this deal, i believe there's nothing wrong with it. My coaches will sometimes get on to you if you are matched with a greatly inferior opponent and you stick em fast. The main reason many wrestlers do this is to practice. They have no viable threat of losing the match so why waste an oppurtunity to get better. Now toying with an opponent when it really matters, such as regionals or state, or in a tournament when your team really needs points, its stupid to do. You do risk losing the match or getting hurt or something unordinary happening. And when somebody is playing with you it makes you wrestle harder and work harder so you are not embarrassed anymore.
once again, does anyone know how sharky is doing on the record?
I highly disagree with KC Handballer for many reasons. One, if the kid is good enough to repeatedly takedown a wrestler at will then he should use this talent. Also, if a kid can't stop a wrestler from repeatedly taking him down, he needs to work on defending shots. Wrestlers need to use their talent to its fullest on the wrestling mat because that's the only way a wrestler can get better against tougher competition.
i think he told me that he was about 30 takedowns or so from beating the career record.
Sharky had said a couple of weeks ago that he was about 30 or so away from the career record but he only has about 125 or 130 takedowns this year. Just to throw my 2 cents in on this deal, there is nothing wrong with taking a opponent down over and over again, as long as it is not to humiliate him. A lot of times in high school you do not have the competition to give you some mat time. If you go out a stick a guy in 20 seconds then what is the good in that. If you are trying new takedowns or finetuning other ones i think that it is better to do it a match because you are seeing "game speed" and you dont always get that in practice.
I am going to go with 311fan...I went out there every match just to get the pin and get off the mat. Now that im in college that has hurt me. I should of been like sharky and worked on my feet alot like he is doing now. Sharky isnt in the wrong for what he does. That is his style and I hope he stays with it!
Yea i have no problem with taking a guy down and letting him back up if you are doing it for the right reasons though. To get better and sharpen skills is very acceptable. But i dont like it when he puts a guy in a pinning combination and watches the ref and holds his opponets shoulder of the mat then lets him up. Thats just wrong. If you do it for the right reasons, like Sharky does that is okay, but trying not to pin him is unnacceptable and unsportsmanlike.
My 2-Cent Soapbox:
We use takedowns as: extra practice on someone who we don't see in the practice room; an opportunity to practice shots we don't normally take in a match (providing us with live & unfamiliar opposition & reactions); an opportunity to push ourselves physically; and as a mental edge over our opponent by breaking them down mentally. It has nothing to do with showing good/bad sportsmanship, or running up the score, or whatever. A few years ago, a very talented 2X State Champion wrestler went out and wrestled countless matches where he took guys down quickly and was pinning them in 20 seconds or less. What good did that do him at the State Level, against better competition, by having only wrestled :10 - :20 matches for over a month? Consequently, this 3X hopeful ended up just like that - hoping for a 3rd time that never came, as he fell to 3rd place at State. Besides, takedowns are much more fun to watch than some guy putting his legs in and riding for 2 periods!
Just because a guy didnt repeatedly take someone down in his matches had nothing to do with him winning state or not, Come on. If he was wrestling guys that he could pin in 10 to 20 sec for a month then their coach held him back and needs to schedule better competition. Once again if you can repeatedly take someone down over and over again, you are not getting that much more of a workout because it is so easy for you. Most of those shots you are practicing because you rarely get to use in a match are NEVER going to work on a good wrestler anyway.
Well if your afraid to get humiliated on the mat..why even wrestle?
not talking about humiliation, talking about bad sportmanship. I get the argument about repeated takedowns, i understand where you people are coming from, i understand they need to work, i get it. But when you are looking at the ref and the scoreboard and just holding his shoulders off the mat, YOU ARE A PUNK!!, and there is no way around it. It it like staring the pitcher down after hitting a home run or standing over a guy after you just laid him out on the football field. This move is the wrestling equivilant of showboating. If you think it is ok then you are the punk, you are the bully, and you are the guy everyone loves to root against. You are the Barry Bonds of wrestling, Congrats.
You must of been T-falled alot huh?
never wrestled one day in my life. Watched about 8 years(i mean every week when my brothers wrestle). I concetrated on that baseball scholarship i got, so i want you know that before you say i know nothing about sportsmanship and athletics at a high level. i know a punk when i see one. Not many out there but they are there. I bet Terrell Owens is your idol, isnt he jimmie? No wait i bet you like Chad Johnson too.
Nope, I like Barry Bonds:)
i can see if a wrestler is toying with his opponent where that might not be good. but i wrestled with a kid in highschool that he was superior on his feet but weak on the mat and he won a state title because he could take anyone down and just kept letting them up. did it in the state finals. nothing wrong with that. i dont see a problem with a kid taking another one down time after time. I have a kid in our club that i told him to take the kid down with 3 different takedowns cause the other kid was a fish. that was good for him to learn to use more than one move. I didnt think he was toying with him he was working hard and learning at the same time. but some of you are right if he is doing it and laughing then kick his butt off the mat.
exactly bockman. that is exactly what i am talking about. couldnt of said it better. i am still not a fan of it but i understand and respect the argument.
I would like to start by saying I have no desire to get into a name-calling contest with anyone. But, I would like to express my opinion on several areas of this subject.
1) First, in regards to a takedown record. Not trying to disrespect anyone who aspires to hold this record I feel often records are achieved at the expense of inferior opponents. Many of the greatest wrestlers that have come out of Kansas aren't on any all-time records list.
2) Second, regarding taking an opponent down and letting him up. The ultimate in wrestling is the fall. In my opinion that is what every wrestler should be trying to do each time they step on the mat. I do understand that wrestlers of greater skill sometimes find it hard to find opponents that they just can't takedown and pin, thus, the argument that they won't be ready for the tougher competition down the line because of a lack of mat time. In this case it is the coaches responsibility to a) make sure they have a schedule that gets them tough matches during the year, and b) the coach makes sure they get tougher in practice. If a coach hasn't figured out how to push his wrestlers to the breaking point in practice then no amount of takedowns against a lesser opponent will get them ready for the really tough matches. In my opinion a competition shouldn't be used for practice.
3) Third, there are instances where taking a wrestler down and letting him up is good strategy. Let me give you those situations. a) The object is to score the most points for your team and if you can't pin your opponent then you want to tech fall him or major decision him to gain additional points in a dual or tournament. This might be done by letting him up and taking him down because he is to tough to turn. Also, sometimes, by doing this the other wrestler loses his will and then is easier to pin. b) A wrestler who might be hard to turn can sometimes be more easily put to his back from the neutral position. But, once put there the wrestler should try and secure a fall.
I do believe that sportsmanship is a part of this discussion. I do not believe that someone who gets toyed or played with on the mat and feels embarrassed about it should be questioned about whether they have enough heart to wrestle. We all wrestle for different reasons and most won't ever be champions. But, the real champions will never try and disrespect or embarrass their opponent. Anyone that has the guts to step out on the mat is okay in my book.
Jeff Watkins
Kc Handballer, how can a takedown you work on repeatedly not work on better competiotion? It's obviously working for Sharky because i watch him in tough finals matches against ranked kids in the state takedown kids at will.
How much does someone wanna bet me that sharky works his butt off in practice? Any takers. The reason why he is so damn good is because of that more than any match against an inferior opponent.
I know that sharky works hard in practice. And you are right, he is not good because he takes down an inferior opponent over and over. He is good because he has trained to be on his feet, that is where he is at his best. If you have watched him wrestle this year in any of his tough matches (Callahan 3 times, Colin Hase twice) he wins because he can take anyone down, but he also can lose if he does not take them down like agaist Callahan the first 2 times he wrestled him. He did not go after the takedown record last year to be flashy or humiliate guys he did it because he thought that he was good enough on his feet that mabey he could and he did.
so what if a guy goes out to beat a fastest fall record? is that unsportsman-like? i feel if a guys out there like sharky busting his butt to put his name in the books more power to him. a kid told me once when i asked him about his goals, "i want paople to remember my name". people will remember sharky slyter. and i'll remember him as the kid afraid of nothing. the way he jumps from 12 to 19 to scrap with anyone anytime, admirable.
sharky is a bad example for this argument because he is too damn good, whatever he does is right because he always wins. if he went out there and pinned everyone quick, people would be saying that he is such a great wrestler he doenst need to toy with his opponents, he is just that good.
Once again when i refer to unsportsmanlike conduct i am not talking about sharky slyter. I never brought him up by name. I am talking about the wrestler who is 2 inches from pinning his opponent, lifts his shoulders off the mat, then lets him up. That wrestler is a punk and showboat.
agreed. no arguement here.
A couple of final thoughts and comments ( I'm aware that earlier on I said that that was my last 2 cents ... add another 2 cents:
1. To Jwatkins: Well said. Great post.
2. To those of you who profess to believe that there is nothing unsportsmanlike in behavior involving a grossly superior wrestler who (for lack of a better word) "toys", with his grossly inferior opponent (i.e. engages in conduct - however described - in which no competitive advantage - once again however described - is either sought or gained) the effect of which is likely to cause the inferior wrestler to feel embarrassed or perhaps humiliated, I want to be the first to forewarn you that your thoughts in these regards might just one day change.
There may come a day when you or yours is unnecessarily taken advantage of, embarrassed or subjected to humiliation.
This could take place in business, when a co-worker or business rival goes out of his or her way to gain advantage, the effect of which causes you to suffer embarrassment and/or humiliation. It's not that anything that they did or said was "illegal", it was just conduct that was simply unnecessary, just not right, not playing fair.
This could take place on a wrestling mat (i.e. your son wanting to try his hand at wrestling and one of his early opponents - a much stronger, more experienced, technically proficient wrestler - not just "beats" your son, but does so by repeatedly taking him down with a threatened pin, only to effortlessly release him with a smirk or a smug grin on his face, so that he can repeat the process ... again and again. And at the end of the match, the superior wrestler is greeted with laughter and high-fives by his coach and team-mates, while your son, sheepishly makes his exit off of the mat with a severely wounded ego, thinking that he wrestled horribly and wondering whether he is really cut out for this sport; worried that he may have disappointed his dad, his mom, or siblings or his coach ... and o yeah, knowing that all of this took place in front of his teammates, friends and peers. I have difficulty believing that your paternal response to your son will be: "...well, if your afraid to get humiliated on the mat, why even wrestle...".
I well understand that you may use that experience as "motivation" for your son, and if your son has some pretty tough mettle, he himself may use that experience as "motivation" for himself, as well - by doing everything within his power to prevent himself from being placed in that position again. That's what we want and hope for.
But, I'd venture a guess that this uncomfortable experience will remain tucked away in your mind for some time ... and suffice it to say, that you will not likely find yourself thereafter rooting for the bully who, for no good reason, took advantage of your son. You probably will not waste any time searching for justification nor rationalization for this conduct (i.e. well ... he was just gearing up for state, or I guess that he just needed some extra practice,or maybe he just needed to hone his take-down skills ...) No, if you are like me you will lay in wait for legal revenge: if not at the hands of your son (by a sound thumping on the mat, at a later date), then, at least, at the hands of another wrestler who can give that bully a taste of his own medicine.
Not that the superior wrestler did anything illegal, mind you, but for most of us sportsmanship at least contemplates some dignity and graciousness in both victory and defeat. As for myself, I can not see any thing dignified nor gracious in that sort of behavior.
Sportsmanship (and its opposite: unsportsman like behavior) is an intangible - a somewhat difficult concept to describe, but for most of us, we know it when we see it, and more specifically, when we (or ours) personally experience it. Trust me.
It's like that old saying "what goes around comes around". or "treat others the way you would want to be treated for one day you will find yourself on the other side". or my personal favorite: Karma can be a real ......
They wouldn't be popular phrases if they were not true.
OHHH NO!!!! We don't want to embarrass anyone or make anyone feel inferior! In fact, I think if you are a great wrestler you should keep every match close so you don’t hurt your opponents (or your opponents parent’s) feelings.
Take’em down, let’em up!!!!!!! It’s good for both wrestlers in the long run!
You don’t think it’s embarrassing to get pinned in 8 seconds?
Tell that to the kids from Columbine. The kids who shot all those kids(including a stud football player) were bullied and embarrassed in front of their peers. I guess those kids should have just toughened up right? Take it like a man right? There are other factors in that incident but the basic point is that these kind of experiences can damage kids for life. The fragile mind of a teenager is something that should not be messed with. When you wrestle like a punk, this kind of consequence comes into play. That is the whole point of the argument. Treat others like you would want to be treated, with respect. the bully never thinks about the consequences until the day comes when the little kid is bigger and stronger than the bully or armed with a gun. I know the columbine thing is a little extreme, but think about it.
P.S. Dont come back with any football or baseball arguments. Wrestling is the most intimate and visible sport there is. People are right on top of the mat, one on one competition, not even close to same.
sounds like you have a son that has been taken down and cut loose alot in matches.
I have actually had a couple of coaches come to me this year and ask me not to have my wrestler pin their kid. they wanted more mat time
it may be bullyish. but "it is what it is" sometimes its a nasty sport and the other guy is that much better than u. swallow ur pride, jog off the mat and train so it doesn't happen again. by the way, i love the kids who are average at best and try the catch and release game. they look rediculous and usually get taken down themselves
you got it kchandballer- or from my experience "the underdog" has enough and the parents get sued for medical bills after standing up to the bully (guess who won)
Ballhandler,
How in the world did we get from takedowns to shootings?!?!?? You know, if a kid or coach doesn't like getting taken down they can always throw in the towel. It amazes me how crazy some of this discussions end up getting to be. Maybe I missed something, did one of those shooters at Columbine hold the Colorado record for being taken down?
This is part of wrestling. If you don't want to be taken down repeatedly learn some defense. If you get embarrased work hard to get better. Handballer that was the most idiotic post I have ever read.
did someone say the main goal was for a pin. I think the main goal for every kid is to get better each and every time they get on the mat. Maybe for a highschool kid who is wrestling for a team may want the pin more so than a young kid who wrestles in just tournaments. I have tried and tried to get my kid to do something other than a darn headlock. He insists its easier. I have a rule for him in practice is no headlocks from his feet. Next match here comes the headlock. I would like to see him use 2 to 3 different take downs if possible. This is part of getting better. But if I was to catch my kid toying with another wrestler I would kick his butt myself. Hopefully at 7 he doesnt even understand what toying with a kid means though.
never wrestled one day in my life.
Just my opinion and you are welcome to yours, but the credibility of this thread got a little less on page 6 with this statement.
24/7
JUST BECAUSE I DONT WRESTLE DOESNT MEAN I CANT SEE A PUNK. ONCE AGAIN I AM NOT, REPEATED NOT TALKING ABOUT REPEATED TAKEDOWNS, I AM TALKING ABOUT WHEN THE KID IS TWO INCHES FROM BEING PINNED THEN LETS HIM UP. I BACKED OFF MY STANCE ON THE REPEATED TAKEDOWNS TWO DAYS AGO. I HAVE HEARD THE ARGUMENTS THAT A WRESTLER NEEDS TO WORK AND I GET IT. WHEN I AM TALKING ABOUT THE PUNK AND THE BULLY I AM TALKING ABOUT WHEN THEY HAVE THE GUY PINNED LIFT HIS SHOULDERS OFF THE MAT, THEN LET HIM UP. CAN YOU GUYS AT LEAST CONCEDE TO ME THAT THAT ACTION IS WRONG, THAT IS ONE I AM TALKING ABOUT.
Sorry but was that on TV? WWF? Bullog Bob Brown vs. Handsome Harley Race? 1971? Drop it please. Thanks in advance.
Cokeley,
i am glad to see you are still using the 3rd grade jokes. You called me Ballhandler, i cant control my laughter. Arent you supposed to be an educated man? Why resort to the 3rd grade jokes? Your an adult, grow up. Why cant you just disagree with someone without the insults? I have my opinion you have yours, is that how you go thru life, insulting people who dont agree with you? What is up with that?
You should see him at a youth tournament when he doesn't agree with the referee's call, it's not pretty!
I am off to perry lecompton for the regional out there to watch my little brother. Good luck to everyone on this post who is wrestling or watching someone wrestle this weekend, even you cokeley. I appreciate the points of view that many people have posted on this topic. I respect your opinions as i am sure you respect mine. best of luck to everyone.
You know BigPin22, in his last post, makes some interesting comments (his sarcasm aside):
1. He states: You don't think that it is embarrassing to get pinned in 8 seconds?
Comment: Sure it is ... and at duel just this past season, a wrestler I'm very familiar with did just that to his first dual opponent of the year. He was wrestling a kid he knew nothing about, but from a steller program. When the match was over, and this wrestler went to shake the the opposing coach's hand, that coach prolonged the hand-shake, and, in effect stated to this wrestler that he hopes he feels good about himself, because he just pinned and embarrassed an inexperienced freshman.
Like I mentioned earlier, this concept of "sportsmanship" is an intangible concept. Obviously, this coach was of the opinion that this wrestler conducted himself in an unsportsmanlike manner.
I still like to believe that the embarrassment and/or humiliation arising from the 8 second pin mentioned above, is an unfortunate, and in many instances, to be expected, bi-product of "competition" - meaning - that there was no "intent" (deliberate or sublime) to embarrass a lesser opponent or to show-off, just an intent to put forth his best and most agressive effort. The resulting embarrassment and/or humiliation, in that context, is simply inherent in the nature of the sport. To borrow a phrase from Lakemats, "it is what it is".
I don't think that anyone is proposing that any wrestler deliberately suppress or otherwise tone down their natural aggession and/or competitveness, to make allowances for an inferior opponent - at least, I'm not. If you, as an inexperienced, weaker, technically non-proficient wrestler, find yourself wrestling a grossly superior opponent, be prepared for the consequences; which may well include embarrassment, humiliation and pain - for all the world to see. No one should be heard to complain.
Sportsmanship, or the lack thereof, comes into play when the resulting embarrassment and/or humiliation may not be solely attributed to the rigors of competition, but something less honorable.
I already said prior comments were my last 2 cents, then last 4 cents. Add another 2 cents and I'm out of here. Hope you and yours get after em at state. Good luck!
Tell that to the kids from Columbine. The kids who shot all those kids(including a stud football player) were bullied and embarrassed in front of their peers. I guess those kids should have just toughened up right? Take it like a man right? There are other factors in that incident but the basic point is that these kind of experiences can damage kids for life. The fragile mind of a teenager is something that should not be messed with. When you wrestle like a punk, this kind of consequence comes into play. That is the whole point of the argument. Treat others like you would want to be treated, with respect. the bully never thinks about the consequences until the day comes when the little kid is bigger and stronger than the bully or armed with a gun. I know the columbine thing is a little extreme, but think about it.
P.S. Dont come back with any football or baseball arguments. Wrestling is the most intimate and visible sport there is. People are right on top of the mat, one on one competition, not even close to same.
KC Handballer
That might be one of the most asinine comparisons I’ve have ever seen on this forum. How in the hell can you compare someone being embarrassed to two psychopathic idiots like Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold? Being bullied and being embarrassed in the sports arena are two completely different things.
First off when you step on the field (mat) of competition you have chosen to put your esteem on the line in order to gain recognition. Being bullied isn’t a choice!
If a person’s feelings and self esteem are so fragile that a little embarrassment ruins their life then that person wasn’t very well prepared for real life. Sports are not for everyone, especially, wrestling. And, yes, I have told my wrestlers they need to toughen up or being embarrassed is going continue to happen to them. Wrestling is quite possibly the toughest sport out there and that is why we have that other cute little sport called basketball for those who are not suited for one-on-one combative sports.
Everybody suffers embarrassment at some point in their life and like many have said on this subject it can be a learning tool. I challenge you find any solid evidence that there is any direct correlation between being embarrassed in sports and psychopathic behavior. You can’t!
“Dont come back with any football or baseball arguments. Wrestling is the most intimate and visible sport there is.”
Are you kidding me! Football is the most widely viewed sport there is in the U.S. If were going to pursue this topic then we need address other sports also. Football players should no longer be allowed to deliver a hard wrenching hit to another player because it could cause that person to go on a shooting rampage! Wow! The theoretical possibilities of train of thought could be astronomical.
I remember one young man on my wrestling team that took his share of these embarrassments during the early part of his wrestling career. He learned from these experiences that he had to work harder and be more focused to be successful.
He is now called Doctor.
Coach Neil-maybe one of the best posts I have ever read on this forum!
24/7
I agree with Neil. That last comparison was a little to far "out-there"!
Coach Neil,
Awesome! I am glad that you took the time to put that in perspective for KC (he doesn't like to be called Ballhandler) so that we can move on to more important stuff. Good luck to you, Symon, and the rest of the Bobcats!
I owe you a high five!
Sorry if my question upset your guys feelings...Slyter is good on the mat so no he doesnt have to take down let up his opponents. Although if your horrible on the mat and are unstopable on your feet then why not? Put on a take down clinic on every person you step on the mat with. I saw Jake Hoesli at the Concordia Abilene dual last year and he took his opponent down 9 times in under 50 seconds. If you dont want to look like a fool on the mat than work harder in the wrestling room.
I didnt mean to upset anybody by starting this topic...again all i wanted to know was how is Slyter doing. But im glad this topic started because its been interesting. There has been some great post towards both sides of the arument, is it un sportsman like to take down you opponent numerous times. The wrestler himself is the only one who can decided if by the ways hes wrestling is un sportsman like. If Slyter takes a first year kid down 15 times in 2 minutes he can either do it in a sportman like way or a un sportsman like way. wanting to dominate your opponent on the mat and make him wish he went would of went out for basketball is not being un sportsmen like. whether you think its true or not handballer.
If you have an abundance of slow twitch muscle fiber and your opponent has an abundance of fast twitch muscle fiber - then all the 'preperation' in the world is not going to change the outcome of a 'takedown clinic'.
Sometimes you just come up against a stronger, quicker 'horse'. No shame in that.
20 years ago I coached a kid going for his third straight state title. He put on a take-down clinic. His opponent 'took his beating like a man'. I got it on tape. For a lack of a better adjective - his (the one who lost) reaction was 'cute'. After getting teched in less than two minutes, he had a silly grin on his face as he shrugged his shoulders, raised his hands up and looked at his coach. Kind of a "what the heck could i do coach?" expression. Having wrestled his opponent several times myself - i felt the exact same way. I NEVER took him down. I could beat our undefeated 171 pounder because he was 'slow' like me. But, I had no chance EVER against our stealthy little 145 pounder. And, i was a solid 160 back then. I tried and tried. Every time I thought I had him - DARN! RATS! I had given up two AGAIN!!! After a while I just quit wrestling him! Too frustrating! ;-)
Back when Neb. was a power-house in football, Coach Osborne got the idea. He went out and recuited speed. THEN, he won his national titles. you can't coach quickness. Either you have it or you don't. I don't care how good of defensive technique you have, it would not have done you much good wrestling say John Smith in his prime. EVERYBODY knew the low single was coming. NOBODY could stop it . . .
Again, no shame in getting schooled by a stud. Take you 'beating like a man', learn what you can from it, AND MOVE ON!
Well said dwelsh. Would you agree with me that a wrestler can tech his opponent in the first period and do it with sportsmanship?
Most definitely. It happened to me many times.
Now, if after beating my 'weanie self' - they then proceed to kick me in the face (ala Vick at VT) and laugh and taunt me THEN they are being a poor sport.
But, the dudes that killed me, always did it with class and style. I embarrassed my self - they didn't embarrass me. This was a risk I willing to take when I stepped foot on the mat. Ya win some, ya lose some. Ideally we don't act like a jerk no matter what side of the 'coin we are on'.
Like the PATS coach - being the first to jog across the field and offer congrads to the Giants coach. Cool.
It just a game boys and everybody has a right to be a jerk if they want. Of course consequences come with being a jerk (ie. you probably wont have any friends) but thankfully in our country there is no law against it. If there was, my wife and a million others would have had me behind bars decades ago!
HAHAHA . . .