Any ideas who will represent the state of Kansas this year? Missouri seems to have a tough team again this year, but that has been said the past two years as Kansas has been able to come away with the W.
Here are some of the names that were thrown out a month or so ago on another thread.
103 - Michael Provencher
112 - Collin Hase
119 - Nathan McCormick
125 - Matt Noblet
130 - Jake Tanenbaum
135 - Anthony Livengood
135 - Phillip Henes
140 - Aldon Isenberg
145 - Nick Flynn
152 -
160 - Gabe Mason
171 - Phil Witt
189 - Matt Baker
215 - Jake Kober
285 - Duane Zlatnik
285 - Atticus Disney
A seven pound weight allowance is given so alot movement is possible.
24/7
so.....are you saying for example 140# can weigh 147#? Thanks for your response.
285- Disney
215- Walters
189- Baker
171-Witt
160-?
152- Flynn
145- ?
140-Henes/Isenberg (I believe Isenberg has won more head to heads, but Henes was the state champ this year...)
135- Livengood
130- Tanenbaum
125- McCormick
119- Siefert
112-?
103-?
Those kids probably arent exactly how it'll fall in, but I'd say thats a pretty good look...maybe bump Henes or Isenberg to 145...I really dont know about 160. as far as the smaller weights go sometimes they dont wrestle a 103 or 112 match so i guess we'll see....
Where's Kevin Callahan fit in this? I think 130 or 135 myself.
Throw Zlatnik in at 285 as well.
Oh yeah, and Noblet as well.
Jordan Meyer of Sabetha will be wrestling at 152lbs for the Kansas side and Flynn will be 145. He left for the practice at Mill Valley tonight, I know Hase and Zlatnick were asked too.
Coach Brown
Hase was at practice. He will probably go 112, giving him 119 with the 7 pounds. McCormick, Tanenbaum, Noblet, Isenberg, Henes, Flynn, Witt, Baker, Disney and Zlatnik are all in. I believe CJ Randall is in too. Can't wait till the rosters are announced. March 5th can't come quick enough!
Again Missouri looks good "on paper". Kansas seems to like it that way!
Kansas Line-up posted on Missouriwrestling.com
Kansas line up
112 Colin Hase - Silver Lake
119 Nathan McCormick - Blue Valley North
125 Jake Tannenbaum - Blue Valley North
130 Matt Noblett - Paola
135 Phil Hennes - Spring Hill
135 Russell Nailor - St. Thomas Aquinas
140 Aldon Isenberg - Gardner-Edgerton
145 Nick Flynn - Lansing
152 Jordan Meyer - Sabetha
160 Phil Witt - Leavenworth
171 C.J. Randall - Prairie View
189 Matt Baker - Shawnee Mission East
215 Jake Kober - Santa Fe Trail
285 Dewayne Zaltnik - Rossville
285 Aticus Disney - Shawnee Heights
Can someone please post the career accomplishments (record, state places, etc) of the KS guys? Thanks.
Judge Ito ... this lineup for Kansas is pathetic! Absolutely terrible records, no state placings and no accomplishments amongst any of them!!
If this is the best Team Kansas can come up with ... prepare for a butt whoopin'!!
It will be posted anyway, but here is the "pathetic" records from our Kansas team:
112 - Colin Hase - 39-3 - State Champion
119 - Nathan McCormick - 43-1 - State Champion
125 - Jake Tanenbaum - 41-2 - 3rd Place
130 - Matt Noblet - 30-4 - 3rd Place
135 - Phillip Henes - 40-4 - State Champion
135 - Russell Naylor - 41-4 - 3rd Place
140 - Aldon Isenberg - 31-1 - 2nd Place
145 - Nick Flynn - 42-4 - 3rd Place
152 - Jordan Meyer - 37-1 - 3rd Place
160 - Phil Witt - 42-8 - 2nd Place
171 - CJ Randall - 44-1 - 2nd Place
189 - Matt Baker - 40-1 - 3rd Place
215 - Jake Kober - 36-3 - 5th Place
285 - Duane Zlatnik - 44-1 - State Champion
285 - Atticus Disney - 34-0 - State Champion
anybody know which heavyweight gets madison? i assume he'll be on the mat for missouri...
On paper it looks as though there are going to be a lot of very good matches!
who is on the line up for missouri?
Judge Ito ... this lineup for Kansas is pathetic! Absolutely terrible records, no state placings and no accomplishments amongst any of them!!
If this is the best Team Kansas can come up with ... prepare for a butt whoopin'!!
Huh?
This what I came up with for the MO team...
112 Nick Clemens - 5,1,1,1
119 Justin Forrest - Q,2,4,1
125 Brock Lowe - Q,3
130 Colin Pierce - 1,1,1,1
130 Jordan Peter - Q,3
135 Tyler Russell - Q,1,5
140 Tyler St Louis - 1,2,1,1
145 Wes Gorham - 4,4
152 Chris Chionuma - 3,1
160 Marcus Armato - 4,5
171 Clarence Neely - Q,2,x,1
189 Brent Haynes - 3,1,1,1
215 Kolton Kono - 2,6,1
HWT Elijah Madison - 2,3,3,3
HWT Ebe Nelson - Q,3
Notably absent is Dylan Joiner @ 145 - 3,1,1,1
ZLATNIK IS PAIRED UP WITH MADISON
Zlatnik v. Madison should be a good match. Disney v. Nelson won't be.
didn't madison stick zlatnik earlier this year? hopefully zlatnik can dish out a little vengeance...disney should handle nelson.
honestly i like kansas' chances. i dont see to many blatant mismatches and there shouldnt be a ton of matches end in pin.
were is cotton romero?? he would rip on the missouri kids why doent he wrestle i think he oculd beat baker
112 Colin Hase - 2,1,3,1
119 Nathan McCormick - Q,2,1,1
125 Jake Tanenbaum - 4,5,2,3
130 Matt Noblet - 3,3
135 Phillip Henes - Q,2,1
135 Russell Naylor - Q,Q,3
140 Aldon Isenberg - 3,4,1,2
145 Nick Flynn - 6,Q,2,3
152 Jordan Meyer - Q,2,3
160 Phil Witt - Q,2,2
171 CJ Randall - 5,2
189 Matt Baker - Q,3,3
215 Jake Kober - Q,2,1,5
285 Duane Zlatnik - Q,1,1,1
285 Atticus Disney - 4,1,1,1
Correct me if im wrong
were is cotton romero?? he would rip on the missouri kids why doent he wrestle i think he oculd beat baker
You REALLY must be silly or stupid to think that Cotton would rip through Haynes. They are both 1 and 2 in the nation just don't see either one getting ripped through.
Jordan Meyer-SQ, 2, 3, for 10, 11, 12th grades-117-28 in highschool.
Cotton lives to far away from the 90 mile radius, that is why he is not in there.
Coach Brown
Matt Noblet 2005 3 at 119 5a
were is cotton romero?? he would rip on the missouri kids why doent he wrestle i think he oculd beat baker
Brent Haynes has a winning record against Cotton.....
were is cotton romero?? he would rip on the missouri kids why doent he wrestle i think he oculd beat baker
Brent Haynes has a winning record against Cotton.....
It's the KC METRO classic. Hutch is not in the metro radius.
Just found out that KS changed their lineup. KS moved McCormick to 125, I guess because they feel Brock Lowe would be an easier match than Justin Forrest. What a shame. I wonder what other changes will be made?
Nice maneuvering after you see the MO lineup. Like you guys need any help.
Romero Cotton is the best wrestler in KS, IMHO. I have always been very impressed with him, no disrespect to anyone of the other outstanding seniors out there. However, I watched Haynes from Oak Park, MO, beat Romero at Southern Plains this summer. So, if anyone thinks he would "rip through" the MO kid, go check out the records.
DERRICK NEWSON -4A 215 lbs. from Atchison (KC Area) would make a great fill in if needed. He only lost to the 4A champ in semi
7-6 and finished ahead of Kober(SFT). I believe he has only had a couple full years of wrestling under his belt but is quite a talent with great upside(potential) as he learns more technique and benefits from solid practice partners of his caliber to push him. Don't know what his college plans are but this kid is WORTH a look because he was awful tough for not having the benefit of what others from very solid programs have as far as competition in the practice room.
Newson v. David Benson (state champ from Belton) would have been another great match. Too bad that could not have been set. I think that weight should have been double up instead of 135.
Just found out that KS changed their lineup. KS moved McCormick to 125, I guess because they feel Brock Lowe would be an easier match than Justin Forrest. What a shame. I wonder what other changes will be made?
Nice maneuvering after you see the MO lineup. Like you guys need any help.
We don't care who Missouri brings. Beware of the streak continuing!
Hi Everybody,
You guys are incredible. Kansas has not announced their lineup yet and neither has Missouri. Therefore changes in those lineups are impossible. Whatever you have been pulling off of the Missouri website is just someone guessing as to possible lineups.
Both teams will be announced soon and you all will be the first to know.
Gary Ulmer
Gary Ulmer
One thing that KS must not do is underestimate these guys from MO. The metro area for MO has the best wrestlers in their state, with Oak Park, Ray-Pec, etc. You have to remember -- it's the KS side of the metro vs the MO side of the metro, and the MO side may have more of a population from which to choose.
I lived over there on the MO side for several years (unfortunately) and worked with some of those kids. They will come at you with aggressive, in-your-face wrestling. You have to remember, they're looking to impress MU coaches, Central MO coaches, etc. One guy I worked with won MO state a few years ago when there were only 3 classes instead of 4. He came into the Metro Classic, and I thought he would have a tough match against the KS state champion that he faced. Not. He stuck the KS wrestler with the 3/4 nelson. It made me sick to see KS being represented like that (being originally from central KS and back in KS now). He went on to wrestle for MU. Then, another memorable match from my POV was watching Matt Pile of Sabetha. I believe he was ranked nationally at one point but got 4th at 3-2-1A state. He actually did 'rip on the missouri kid'. I didn't know that MO kid; so I was happy about that.
Congratulations to Newson for placing. I have great respect for that. What did happen to Atchison? They had a great wrestling program. Atchison Co was the only school from eastern KS to win 3-2-1A state, ever -- a great feat. Now they are just 'Atchison' and maybe just had 1 guy go to state. It seems they would get smaller by going from 'Atchison Co' to 'Atchison.' Maybe I've been gone for way too long.
Sorry -- it's 'Pyle' instead of 'Pile', but he put that MO guy in a pile anyway.
Atchison is not Atchison Co. They are two different schools. I don't know wich one you are referring to but Atchison Co. is ACCHS (3A)and it is in Effinham, KS. They have traditionally been very good. Atchison HS is in Atchison KS (4A)
24/7
ACCHS Effingham sent two that I'm aware of to the 3A State in Hays--
119-Cody Phillips- 1 win 2 losses
145-Jordan Noll- 2nd Place
Atchison HS- program numbers are down
some of their better kids have dropped out
215-Derrick Newson-4th place
sent only 1 to State-only Newson which lost 6-7 to State Champ
Kody Page in what many have said was one of the best
matches they witnessed @ 4A State this year in the semis barely
missing the finals and then lost 3rd place match 4-0 to Clay Center whom he had beat in Regional Finals the prior week.
Sorry, I was confused. I didn't realize there were 2 schools -- Atchison County High School in Effingham, which is in Atchison Co and Atchison High School in Atchison, which is the county seat of Atchison Co. Anyway, congratulations
Hi Everybody,
You guys are incredible. Kansas has not announced their lineup yet and neither has Missouri. Therefore changes in those lineups are impossible. Whatever you have been pulling off of the Missouri website is just someone guessing as to possible lineups.
Both teams will be announced soon and you all will be the first to know.
Gary Ulmer
Gary Ulmer
So are you saying the speculation is incorrect that McCormick will not wrestle Forrest and Disney will not wrestle Madison?
I think Missouri did post their lineup and the information on the Missouri web site appears to be from valuable sources. For the most part Missouri’s lineup is as usual where they wrestled in the state tournament.
I don’t think the 7 pound allowance was meant to allow wrestlers to be move up or down one or even two weight classes. Missouri’s lineup is already weaker due to some wrestlers declining for whatever reasons. I think Forrest could easily wrestle 112 with the 7 pounds since that’s exactly where he wrestled this season. IMO Missouri could post a stronger lineup by dropping kids and doubling up or NOT doubling at certain weights.
I think Kansas is taking away from this dual by not wrestling the best Kansas has against the best Missouri has wherever possible. Kansas proved it last year by not wrestling Pyle vs. Nay and will prove it again if Disney doesn’t wrestle Madison. You have 2 of the top 5 HWTs in the nation and that alone is worth the price of admission.
I will give you this Kansas has won the last two years when I thought they didn’t have a chance, but it was not done without some strategic maneuvering of weights. You started the thread on the Missouri web site and stated “Missouri, as they have the last two years, will putting on the mat a powerful team. Kansas, as they have the last two years, is hoping to check that power with a great team of their own. This one likely will be the best ever.” This is only true if you match the best against the best.
I’m sure you know what the Kansas lineup is or at least it has been discussed, so why don’t you stop all the guessing and post it.
I don’t think the 7 pound allowance was meant to allow wrestlers to be move up or down one or even two weight classes. Missouri’s lineup is already weaker due to some wrestlers declining for whatever reasons.
Isn't it kind of early for the excuses to begin?
They have Tyler St. Louis wrestling here at 140, but he was 152 for the year, so thats not even a valid excuse that kansas does that
I said "for the most part" there will always be some that don't wrestle the same weight in order to get all the deserving kids an invite. And I'm not making excuses, I think Missouri will win.
Disney will not be wrestling Maddison.
well, we should definately change the name, metro classic we're not. sabetha 107 miles, topeka 68, rossville 84,etc. did anyone ever do a study to see how many high schools in a 35 to 50 mile radius from mo. ks. border. probally not that lopsided. i like the idea like senior nationals, you can't compete at a lower weight than you competed at state tournament.
Missouri has a larger population to pull from within the "metro" area - they do however go to towns like Cameron, Higginsville, etc to get kids too. I would like to see a KS v. MO dual, not just the KC metro area. Can someone post KS's best, and we'll match them up against MO's best. Thanks
I'm not going to spend the time pulling individual records across the state. But looking at the team results from this year, there were only 2 teams within the metro classic radius on the KS side that even finished in the top 5 in any of the 4 classes. So, that's 2 out of 20. A large percentage of the KS population is within this metro classic radius also. I would not conclude that the best wrestling in KS is within this metro classic radius. When examining the MO side, 8-10 out of 20 are from within the metro classic radius, and MO has large populations outside of KC (St. Louis). The best wrestling in MO is in the metro area. I would like to see state-wide match-ups if someone has the time to post them. Also, does anyone have past results from when KS used to have the East-West Classic?
U.S. Army Metro Classic Wrestling Dual 16th Annual
7:00 pm March 5, 2008
Kansas City, Kansas Community College
7250 State Ave.
Kansas City, Kansas
Kansas Missouri
Wt. Name School Records Name School Record Place
112 Colin Hase Silver Lake High School 38-3 1 vrs. Nick Clemens Odessa High School 42-2 1
119 Jake Tanenbaum Blue Valley North H.S. 43-1 3 vrs. Justin Forrest Raymore Peculiar H.S. 46-2 1
125 Nathan McCormick Blue Valley North H.S. 41-2 1 vrs. Colin Pierce Kearney High School 46-0 1
130 Matt Noblet Paola High School 30-4 3 vrs. Brock Lowe Liberty High School 35-7 3
135 Russell Naylor Spring Hill High School 41-4 3 vrs. Jordan Peter KC O'Hara High School 40-9 3
135 Phillip Henes St. Thomas Aquinas H.S. 40-4 1 vrs. Tyler Russell Oak Grove High School 42-9 5
140 Aldon Isenberg Gardner/Edgerton H.S. 31-1 2 vrs. Tyler St. Louis Platte County High School 51-0 1
145 Nick Flynn Lansing High School 42-4 3 vrs. Wes Gorham Richmond High School 30-14 4
152 Jordan Meyer Sabetha High School 38-1 3 vrs. Chris Chionuma Blue Springs High School 33-4 1
160 C.J. Randall Prairie View High School 44-1 2 vrs. Marcus Armato Oak Park High School 24-5 5
171 Phil Witt Leavenworth High School 42-8 2 vrs. Clarence Neely Blue Springs High School 50-2 1
189 Matt Baker Shawnee Mission East 40-1 2 vrs. Brent Haynes Oak Park High School 43-0 1
215 E.J.Walters St. Thomas Aquinas H.S. 31-4 2 vrs. Kolton Kono Oak Park High School 32-2 1
285 Duane Zlatnik Rossville High School 44-1 1 vrs. Elijah Madison Oak Park High School 44-1 3
285 Atticus Disney Shawnee Heights H.S. 34-0 1 vrs. Ebe Nelson Raytown South H.S. 35-3 3
Coaches: Travis Keal-Mill Valley High School Coaches: Alan Hull-Blue Spring South High School
Harry Lamar-Silver Lake High School Brandon Hopkins-Kearney High School
Dave Schmidt-Leavenworth High School Gary Mayabb-Oak Park High School
Matt Yeamans--Gardner/Edgerton High School Greg Norther-K.C. O'Hara High School
Man. Again, we are behind the 8 ball. Two of our toughest wrestlers match up with Pierce and St. Louis. Randall/Armato and Meyer/Chionuma will be deciding matches. If one team sweeps those two weights, they win in my opinion. As it stands, I see 29-23 MO.
I'll agree with that estimation.
I would like to see a KS v. MO dual, not just the KC metro area. Can someone post KS's best, and we'll match them up against MO's best. Thanks
I'll concede that MO has some studs out there, with all the college wrestling programs in the state and the clinics/academies, etc. MO probably has more HS all-Americans in recent history too. But, I'll tell you what I would like to see -- taking the KS state champs from each of the 4 classes and matching them up against the MO state champs from each of the 4 classes. Match them up in whatever configuration is desired ... MO class 1 champ vs KS 3-2-1A champ and MO class 4 champ vs KS 6A champ ... or ... MO class 4 champ vs KS 3-2-1A champ and MO class 1 champ vs KS 6A champ. It wouldn't even be close ...
Or, how about this -- all MO state champs wrestle a round robin. All KS state champs wrestle a round robin. And the winners of each weight get to wrestle each other in the "BORDER BRAWL". Get rid of the "Metro Classic" title and quit limiting the distance that the contestants have to meet.
doesnt get any better than that!
103 - Who did Ornelas lose to this year? What about Antillion (2X did not get scored on at state)
112 - Stokes
119
103 - Who did Ornelas lose to this year? What about Antillion (2X did not get scored on at state)
112 - Stokes
119
Taylor Moeder (Freshman from Colby) beat Antillion pretty good at the Colby Duals.
Removed thanks to some clarification
Hey Chief can you send an email (test message) I wanted to get your view on the 6A state tournament. I sent an email to you but came back? Thanks RMG
Why can't we support the Kansas Team that was selected instead of trying to come up with a better line up.
Man....
We are TOTALLY supporting our Kansas team! With the "metro" restrictions, I think the best possible kids were selected and should be honored to have been chosen. The Missouri post brought up the radius restrictions and the possibility of having an entire State opportunity. This was NOT "coming up with a better line-up" for metro KC.
I WOULD AGREE WITH DFW. INSTEAD OF THINKING ABOUT WHAT IFFFFF'S,IT IS WHAT IT IS, SUPPORT THE KIDS SELECTED. THEY SEE PEOPLE POST ON HERE, THAT SOMEONE THINKS THEY SHOULD NOT BE THERE. THEY START THINKING WHY DO I NEED TO GO THROUGH MORE PRACTICES AS I AM DONE WITH MY CAREER IN WRESTLING.
Nobody thinks they should not be there. Every single wrestler on the roster deserves to be there. They need to go through the practices because the KC Metro bragging rights are on the line! At least the beasts that we have on our roster are not as thin skinned as some posters!
GO KANSAS!
I can't wait for wednesday.
I hear you Derek and I understand your point. I also love the team concept idea and the underdog kid wrestling for State pride. Let me be clear, this is a STRONG Kansas team! There is no doubt in my mind that this roster has the heart to win any match at this dual. Can't wait till Wednesday!
(I'll delete the previous post...)
If members of the team are reading this, then they should realize that they are wrestling some of the best of the best MO has to offer (right there in the metro area) and should be pumped about the chance to compete against them.
Guys...
I can tell you that without exception, every KS wrestler on our roster knows their opponent and the honor it is to be selected for this team. You guys are the only ones that feel slighted. These are elite level wrestlers that are hungry to battle with Missouri. Why do you feel the need to protect their feelings? They are decorated Kansas champions.
Is the going to be recorded and sold? Just wandering if I should bring my camera or if I can?
I bought a nice copy from Mr. Westover last year. You doing it again this year Mr. Westover? (I believe that was his name, I'd have to find my dvd and check)
I bought a nice copy from Mr. Westover last year. You doing it again this year Mr. Westover? (I believe that was his name, I'd have to find my dvd and check)
Randy Westfahl
Olathe, Kansas
rcwbud@hotmail.com
did you ever think about sharky slyter at 112, he did beat Hase in a very close match
Sharky is a Junior, this is a Seniors event.
This years Metro Classic will be video taped. If you are unable to attend, contact Randy Westfahl and as soon as we have it copied and edited we will send out a copy. I will post the price as soon as I know.
My mistake, I completely overlooked that fact that it is a senior duel.
Randy Westfahl here. I am not doing the film this year, but it will be posted on here who is and if you want to bring your cam and film we have absolutely no objection to that at all. It will also be shown on Metro Sports and then you can hear our brilliant (sarcasm) commentary lol. But the short answer is it will be available in any number of ways.
Randy, I enjoyed the DVD you sent me last year. Thank you.
Can you provide the time and channel and network and all those associated details if a person wanted to record it and had access/resource in the KC area? You can PM if you'd like. Thanks. Dean
There was a post on MissouriWrestling.com that they will have videos (free) online by the day after the metro classic.
with boys dropping 1 and a few 2 weight classes both teams should have to weigh in together with coaches from each side 2 hrs. prior of match or night before.
Or we can just trust that the coaches are men of honor and wouldn't lie -- your choice.
i like my idea better, just like they do at duals and other tournaments.
in missouri they weigh in together right before and in kansas they do it the morning of ...honestly i think it should be done togther. sure most coaches are men of integrity who wont lie, and i'm all for trust, but i dont see how not trusting them and doing it together hurts anything, and it does protect the majority of the coaches who are honest
I can see where you are coming from now that I understand that Missouri does it that way but I do think we should leave it to the coaches to decide how to set it up. If they don't have a problem w/ individual weigh ins then so be it.
Wrestle007,
Both teams weighin the afternoon of the day before, at the same time, at different locations.
Gary Ulmer
There are pros and cons for each. At regionals and state in KS, there is nothing left up to trust. But, in MO if someone in a lighter weight had a bye the first round of a tournament and wrestles a guy who didn't have a bye the first round, then weighing-in at the tournament would be an advantage for him and a disadvantage for the guy who didn't have a bye.
I forgot that Missouri is the "show me" state.
Are you saying MO has matside weigh-ins? If so, why would it be an advantage for one or the other wrestler in your scenario?
MO does not have matside weigh-ins. Wrestlers must weigh at the site before the duel or tournament, though. I'll give you a couple hypothetical scenarios. You're wrestling at a triangle, and all wrestlers weigh in, say, 1 hr before the duel starts. Team A is the home team; teams B and C wrestle first; then team A wrestles team B. If I'm on team B and am a 112 lber, then I'm probably not going to eat or drink jack the whole evening. If I'm on team A, then I'd get something to eat after weigh-in. If I'm on team C, then I'd get something to drink and maybe something to eat after the first duel. Team A should have the advantage. You could see a similar situation at a tournament where individuals would have advantages. Everybody weighs in the morning of the tournament. Maybe the 2nd-seeded wrestler at 112 has a bye the first round; so he has a couple hours before he wrestles and can get breakfast, etc. The 3rd-seeded wrestler has to wrestle the first round and doesn't feel like he has the time to eat breakfast before his match. Then, after the first round, the 3rd-seeded wrestler still doesn't have time to eat breakfast b/c he's wrestling the very next round. These are just hypothetical, though. I'd like to see weigh-ins like MO has them.
Why doesn't KS allow 3rd place to challenge 2nd place if the 2 never met in the tournament, like OK does? I'd like to see that too, although the 3rd place wrestler has an advantage there.
Disney and CC Club,
I am sorry I jumped into the middle of your discussion on KS and MO weighin differences. I thought your were talking about the Classic weighins. I need to learn to read everything before I walk on people's discussions.
Sorry,
Gary Ulmer
You just answered your own question. That topic was debated with about 25 posts already.
24/7
whats different with the way i suggested and the way kansas handles weigh-ins before duals or tournaments?
From a pure wrestling stand point I like how Missouri does it. However, we all know kids would hold weight all day which would make them lousy at school that day. I think from an academic stand point the KS way is better.
so kansas weighs in the morning of the dual? do they have an official or trust the coaches? how do they weigh for tournaments? you,re right though, could make for a long miserable day.
A school administrator (not part of the coaching staff) conducts the weigh-ins! It is the same procedure for tourney's ... with morning weigh-ins!!
Thanks Randy
one would surely think that IS good enough !! FAIR and should eliminate any possibility of fudging weight and should satisfy our dear friends from the show me state
We can go a day and a half without talking about the Metro Classic?
I do know a few have lost sight for what this event is all about!
(this kid is better or that kid is better,weighins,miles or radius)
This is to get the best wrestler in the area and a fundraiser for
Central Missouri State and Ft Hay's State! The rule have been the same for awhile. I have only missed three of them and my son wrestled in the 2003 Metro Classic He alway said it was the best event he wrestled in! Good Luck to both sides. GO TEAM KANSAS!!!
Casey, 7:00pm on Wed, March 5th at KCKCC in KCK. I wish I could be there too. Let's make it 3 in a row!
Thanks for the reminder Brian!
It might be my favorite event of the year too! At this event, I truly get to be a fan!! I can cheer loud and proud for my team ... and that is Team Kansas!!
It is unlike the Kansas Senior Classic or the Kansas State Championships, where while I am cheering for my team, I am not cheering against the opponent! In the Metro Classic, I am rooting for a team ... and sorry Missouri, I am rooting against you!
I do have a few friends on Team Missouri and after the battle, I may shake hands with a few coaches and competitors. But until its' over ... Go Team Kansas!!!
Enjoyed the clinic yesterday. I went into that not expecting to learn a d*** thing. But, I actually did and had fun doing it.
If your talking about the Bronze clinic in Burlington yesterday ... yes it was fun! It's a bonus if you learned something!!
This is arguably the best event of the season. It's kinda fun to be the underdog on paper. That made the last two victories even sweeter! This Kansas team has talent as well as heart. Expect some upsets! Go Kansas!
When will this be shown on Metro Sports??
Metro Sports is showing it Friday night. Not sure what time.
It is the "GAME OF THE WEEK".
chief, how can you say you guys are underdogs? we both have 8 state finalist, you have 6 thirds we have 4. you have one 5th we have 2 fiths and 1 fourth. pretty even you guys might even have slight edge, debatable. throw in you guys got to pick the two extra weights( for 2nd yr. rumor has it)plus you went at least twice as far to get at least 4 of your wrestlers as we did. it will be a great dual but i don't think you can play the under dog angle to dramatize it.
chief, how can you say you guys are underdogs? we both have 8 state finalist, you have 6 thirds we have 4. you have one 5th we have 2 fiths and 1 fourth. pretty even you guys might even have slight edge, debatable. throw in you guys got to pick the two extra weights( for 2nd yr. rumor has it)plus you went at least twice as far to get at least 4 of your wrestlers as we did. it will be a great dual but i don't think you can play the under dog angle to dramatize it.
And the first salvo has been fired!
I have never gone to this before but i am going this year and im stoked, im pulling for KS, but just hope the wrestling lives up to the hype if so ill be happy.
It a great event you will love it!
never said it was outside the lines, just don't think you can play the underdog angle. and just a question, who made the rules?
I don't know but my son wrestled in the 2003 Metro. But they have gone to Ft Scott, Anderson Co,Hiawatha and they are a aways out there Have you ever been before? Look at a program and they have the school under line that can go! Good luck to you or you son!
I love it..."the first salvo has been fired".
We will see many more on 5 March. Looking forward to another great dual.
Mike Flynn
chief, how can you say you guys are underdogs? we both have 8 state finalist, you have 6 thirds we have 4. you have one 5th we have 2 fiths and 1 fourth. pretty even you guys might even have slight edge, debatable. throw in you guys got to pick the two extra weights( for 2nd yr. rumor has it)plus you went at least twice as far to get at least 4 of your wrestlers as we did. it will be a great dual but i don't think you can play the under dog angle to dramatize it.
We are not big underdogs on paper, but we clearly don't have the hardware that MO has. MO has 3 unbeaten wrestlers to our one. MO has 8 State Champions to our five. As to your point about going twice as far to get wrestlers, Kansas does not have the luxury of having 5 wrestlers from one High School. Our top two High Schools that are nationally ranked are excluded by rule from this event. We'll wear the dog angle with pride. See you on Wednesday!
Odds from Vegas are just in....Pick, nobody is the favorite
I am going with Mo 29-27
MO had better teams, on paper, the last 2 years and lost.
KS 32
MO 25
looking forward to a zlatnik madison rematch as i wasn't able to see the first one. just wondering why disney doesn't get a shot at him. and i gotta believe we're looking at 3 high school AA's just at hwt in this event. as for the event itself, one of the best wrestling atmospheres i've ever seen.
Does anyone know if there is a reduced price ticket for kids, say 6-8 years old?
Tonight I heard Team KC MO practices have been the real deal all last week. Was told there has been some butt kicking in the room getting the MO boys fired up, and they are coming after Kansas.
I also got to watch a couple TEAM KC Kansas practices. Did not see a lot of duck duck goose going on in the KS room. Kansas took off Sunday after the State tourney and were banging head again on Monday. Kansas boys looked tough.
Think this is going to be a battle.
See you on the Kansas side.
Mike Flynn
chief, how can you say you guys are underdogs? we both have 8 state finalist, you have 6 thirds we have 4. you have one 5th we have 2 fiths and 1 fourth. pretty even you guys might even have slight edge, debatable. throw in you guys got to pick the two extra weights( for 2nd yr. rumor has it)plus you went at least twice as far to get at least 4 of your wrestlers as we did. it will be a great dual but i don't think you can play the under dog angle to dramatize it.
We are not big underdogs on paper, but we clearly don't have the hardware that MO has. MO has 3 unbeaten wrestlers to our one. MO has 8 State Champions to our five. As to your point about going twice as far to get wrestlers, Kansas does not have the luxury of having 5 wrestlers from one High School. Our top two High Schools that are nationally ranked are excluded by rule from this event. We'll wear the dog angle with pride. See you on Wednesday!
Chief,
So your point is since Kansas does not have their top schools in the metro, they should be able to go farther out to get wrestlers? Then we could call it the MO-Metro vs Kansas Classic
Haynes,
As far as who gets to be underdog. KS has a record of 579-39 witn an average state finish of 2 to MO 593-60 with an average state finish of 2.27. Pretty close but KS clearly has the better numbers with a 93.7 winning percentage.
KANSAS MISSOURI
W L PL W L PL
38 3 1 42 2 1
43 1 3 46 2 1
41 2 1 46 0 1
30 4 3 35 7 3
41 4 3 40 9 3 **
40 4 1 42 9 5 **
31 1 2 51 0 1
42 4 3 30 14 4
38 1 3 33 4 1
44 1 2 24 5 5
42 8 2 50 2 1
40 1 2 43 0 1
31 4 2 32 2 1
44 1 1 44 1 3 **
34 0 1 35 3 3 **
579 39 2 593 60 2.27
93.70% 90.80%
** These are the weights that a doubled-up. Kansas gets 3 champs and 1 third place against Missouri 3 thirds and a fifth place. However it turns out my guess is these weights will have a big impact. Not sure why Missouri would agree to giving Kansas this edge.
So kcfan is picking Kansas to win and providing an excuse in case it happens.
Just enjoy it. These kids are all accomplished wrestlers and good kids. Outstanding event - wrestling is alive and well in the Kansas City area.
The original rule allowed KS a 100 mile radius and MO 50 or 75 I don't recall becuase there is more population close on the MO side. Not stating right or wrong, just the rule.
24/7
You have to factor in that it is harder to place at The Mo State tournament than it is the KS state tournament. All four Mo classes have 54 schools where as 5A and 6A only have 32. In addition Mo has nearly twice the population that Ks has so I would have to say even if the placings are comparable Mo would get the edge just based on hard numerical facts.
I hate to admit it but Will Cokeley is right this time. (Maybe the second or third time ever). MO HS wrestling has been dominated by the KC Metro area, or if you don't consider schools like Cameron in the metro, at least by the NW part of the state. More than once in recent years all four MO HS team titles have been won by KC Metro schools. KS wrestling has been statistically dominated by the Sedgwick County schools, meaning that in 4A 5A and 6A they have won more team and individual titles than the Wyandotte and Johnson County areas. Johnson County is now the largest county in the state, and if you add Wyandotte County we are about twice the size of Sedgwick County, yet Sedgwick still rules the roost most of the time. I am not discounting the other great individuals and teams across the state and their performance speaks for itself. So, knowing the population disparity and the fact that MO wrestling is so strong in the KC area, I think it is awesome that KS can stay with them and win what they have.
KS is always going to be the underdog at this event. That class 4 in MO is a real butt-kicker. You gotta be a stud to place in that, and MO has some studs.
FYI-Kansas receives the extra miles, because of the fact that there are so many schools located in the KCMO metro area. Even with the extended miles package, Kansas does not have the same number of athletes to choose from. It is something that is discussed on here all the time as a Kansas advantage, when the numbers are crunched it shows that Missouri still has more athletes to choose from.
i just did some research and i come up with(within a 50 mile radius) missouri has 38 schools and ks. has 35. i could be off 1 or 2 either way,but its hard to buy that theory. i went as far west as lawrence, as far south as paola, and as far north as leavenworth. on the mo side went as far east as odessa and richmond, as far south as harrisonville and as far north as plattsburg.
Haynes, do the math. The MO metro side has appoximately twice the population as the KS metro side, whether or not the number of schools equates is irrelevant.
In fact, here are the numbers:
Metro MO comprises four counties-Jackson, Clay, Platte and Cass- population 994,759
Metro KS comprises two counties-Johnson, Wyandotte-population 608,968
This is from 2000 Census, and is the only official number to use. When you leave these counties geogrpahically, then you get a larger number of smaller schools, so adding Douglas Co and Shawnee Co in KS only equalizes the population. That is why the rules are what they are.
ok, in mo. class 4 we have 12 schools in metro area, in ks. 6a you have 16. in mo. class 3 we have 5 schools in metro area ks. in 5a has 12 in metro area. each team has 14 weight divisions. you do the math. i don't think a school in the k,c,mo. school district has a wrestling program so you might want to change your demographics.
Yeah, it works both ways. How many state qualifiers, state placers from KCMO district? How many from KCKS? These are not strong wrestling areas, per se. You cannot ignore 1,000,000 population to 600,000. Bottom line is I think organizers knew more than you when they set this up.
This may be the most obsurd reason to argue that I have every witnessed on this forum. Someone really looked over the census data, I teach social studies and I would never want to look at census data for fun. Instead of talking about the wrestlers or how exciting this event is, we are arguing over mileage...get on with it and lets wrestle.
Missouri has more wrestlers in the area, Ulmer has been doing this since before the 10 Commandments came down from Moses and I'll stick with what he says. Or we could just put some fishes out there and then that will prove that MO. is better than Kansas(even though we were on the winning side in the war). Jk
Can't wait for tomorrow!!!!!
Coach Brown
It is an extraordinarily absurd argument. I sit idle until I see people seriously present these ridiculous statements. All is good until false info and inuendo comes out, then I cant take it anymore. Who cares? Nobody I hope. Just leave the ignorance at the door.
ok nobody cares, but tell me the false info mr. williams. and coach brown set your odometer from sabetha h.s.,it won,t be less than 100.
Hey! Hey! Watch it Coach Brown
What do mean the Ten Commandments. You wait until I tell everyone how bad of skim boarder you are. The Coach Ulmer who gave out the radius information is my son, T.J. He only dates back to the Declaration of Independence, but he was correct about the distance differences and the reason for it.
Gary Ulmer
This may be the most obsurd reason to argue that I have every witnessed on this forum. Someone really looked over the census data, I teach social studies and I would never want to look at census data for fun. Instead of talking about the wrestlers or how exciting this event is, we are arguing over mileage...get on with it and lets wrestle.
Missouri has more wrestlers in the area, Ulmer has been doing this since before the 10 Commandments came down from Moses and I'll stick with what he says. Or we could just put some fishes out there and then that will prove that MO. is better than Kansas(even though we were on the winning side in the war). Jk
Can't wait for tomorrow!!!!!
Coach Brown
Everybody is just killing time and keeping occupied till that first whistle. Even census data is being used to get us to Wednesday night. I know that haynes can't wait!
Then good Haynes you now have an excuse when you lose.
From Sabetha to the Metro area or to KCKCC? I will set my Garmin to calculate exact miles as I bring my athlete down there to wrestle in this event. But I am just happy that the Metro coordinators take the time to include little ole' sabetha kids against those mighty metro kids, come on wrestling is wrestling. Every year it is the same argument, last year Jason Pyle lived too far away to be included, but he wrestled there and helped Kansas to win the dual.
I think that the people who complain should get involved, if you don't like somethin then try to do something "positive" to change it instead of complaining. I just want to see a great dual and I think that both sides try to put the best kids against each other. For example Zlatnik, Meyer, and Hase all deserve to be in the dual, even if they are a few miles past the mileage limit(although I think even that is not set in stone in Ks.) Look at the census data, a 300,000 population difference is huge, we only have one town in Kansas that is even that large, Wichita. And yes I called it the correct Kansas term-a town-we aint gots no cities here partner!
I'll post the exact mileage from my Garmin tomorrow night!
Coach Brown
ps. I never said you were wrong Mr. Haynes!
Set it from Brown Co. line to Wyandotte Co. line(it is Brown Co.?)
Like Coach Ulmer, and with Coach Ulmer, I too date to that tablet thing and this is another really silly argument. It isn't by the road mile anyway it is a radius distance that we laid out in agreement with the Missouri coaches years and years ago. Gosh, are you all missing the point of this whole thing with these petty silly bickering little arguments. I coached for 30 years and have been involved with and seen a lot of great events but this meet is so special in so many ways. It is about kids coming together and just getting it on with nothing to lose. It is raw competition and it celibrates wrestling in this area and the kids who wrestle. This other junk (not the word I was thinking) trivializes what is going on here. Do you really think that all of us over here on the Kansas side don't really appreciate what a great job Coach Mayab (sp) and other coaches have done over there or that we don't look forward to seeing some of those kids wrestle that we don't get a chance to see that often. It is the same for the guys over there on the Missouri side. We enjoy seeing them each year and talking to them, the kids know each other and most of them have wrestled each other in the summer and in kids for years. Enjoy it for what it is, not what it is not. Everything around here does not have to be a negative back biting affair. Sometimes we can just compete hard, slap each other on the back and come back again next year. The rest of this just takes away from what ought to be a lot of fun. Ya'll ought to save that stuff for the college games, this is better than that.
Randy Westfahl
googleearth is great!
Sabetha to downtown KC, MO. is 85 miles!!
Try it!
Hope everyone on both sides has picked up on the U.S. Army's involvement in the meet. We are so greatfull for their support. They are really enthusiastic about helping us with it and with a little luck they will really feel like it is worth it helping us. If any of you get a chance to chat with them I hope you thank them for their help. It really takes the meet to another level and stature I think. Thanks to Mjr. Hinkley for really taking the ball and running on this deal. He will be there and is a real friend to wrestling and a former Wisconsin wrestler himself.
dont have last years program handy, has sabetha ever lost in the metro? i think lake has only had one participant. flores 97 not even sure if he won. what kansas schools have had the most success?
Flores was from Silver Lake. We had both Pyle brothers and they both won.
and by the way Flores won handily. He was a heck of a wrestler. Atchison County (Effingham) and Blue Valley Northwest are tied for the most wins with 7. Oak Park and Oak Grove have 15 and 14 and Parkhill 10 or 12 for Mo.
did one of the george bros wrestle in 99 or so? pyle's match a year ago was outstanding. and i remember matt ripping a mo kids arm off. two of the most physical kids u will ever see.
I don't know I will look. Tomorrow when you are at the meet we will be selling the program which is just amazing. Those of you who have purchased them in the past know that everything about this meet and its history is in it, including each and every match. Lots of people on both sides really work hard to put this info together and it is well worth the money. The only George I know that wrestled in it was from Wyandotte (Danny George).
are they gonna spotlight it this year? i know they haven't in a couple years but there is nothing like wrestling under the lights. it just adds to the atmosphere.
No a lot of the ambiance of this meet is the crowd. This is sort of your backyard brawl here, not a light show LOL. We like to see the crowd because sometimes they are as much fun to watch as the wrestling. It is sort of your total involvement kind of deal and we don't want to miss any of it.
321a has done pretty good in this event 13-2
(counting your win lakemats)
what time does the classic start tomarrow?
7:00 pm at KCK Juco, be there early, everyone else will.
Hope everyone on both sides has picked up on the U.S. Army's involvement in the meet.
I don't know who is responsible for picking up their sponsorship but that person deserves a huge pat on the back. That is a great get!
Sabetha has never lost at the Metro-Aaron Georg(my assisstant) 1999-wbf, Matt Pyle-2004, Jason Pyle-2007 won in OT, and possibly Jordan Meyer.
We have been very successful at the Metro and all of my wrestlers want to be good enough to be selected. It is a great honor for all of the Kansas kids to be selected, especially due to the fact we feel that we are step-childs(at times)to the western part of the State.
Thanks to the Army for hosting this wonderful and exciting event, thanks to Coach DeYoe and the Ulmers for all the work they did as well as Troy Hodges, and Coaches Keil and LaMar. Extremely excited about tomorrow----GO KANSAS---thats hard to say for a KSU grad!
Coach Brown
321a has done pretty good in this event 13-2
(counting your win lakemats)
should we not count that win due to me runnin my mouth? hope to see you tomorrow night mr patton
Sabetha has never lost at the Metro-Aaron Georg(my assisstant) 1999-wbf, Matt Pyle-2003, Jason Pyle-2007 won in OT, and possibly Jordan Meyer.
Since I liked it so much I'll repeat myself, Matt Pyle's match was my favorite of the 3 Metro Classics that I saw while in KC. He came in 4th from the 3A state against a stud state champ from Oak Park 48-1. Pyle dominated the match 10-5, and I was cheering the whole time ... I don't know why I promote 3A state so much; I've never even been.
g.t. to answer your question, k.c.mo. school district has no wrestling teams, none. k.c.ks schools have wrestling which had 23 state qualafiers and 8 medalist. like i said before take the population out of k.c.mo. district and i think you might have more population and more schools. i love this tournament and have been going for about the last five years. but you're the one that said something about false statements. i'll answer your other post.
Mr. Haynes, I will answer the question again. I assume you did not understand the first time. They balance out the districts due to the obvious population disparity. If you disagree, then go try and change it. If it is not fair, then so be it. Now that gives you an excuse why you lost the last two, even when favored. Otherwise, who cares?
9:27 minutes until show time!!!! I am just looking forward to some GREAT wrestling.
24/7
Sabetha has never lost at the Metro-Aaron Georg(my assisstant) 1999-wbf, Matt Pyle-2004, Jason Pyle-2007 won in OT, and possibly Jordan Meyer.
I'm not sure you could be making that comment if Jason Pyle wrestled Shane Nay last year. There were 3 145s last year and I assume Pyle was KS's best, everyone knew Nay was MO's best.
Back to my earlier comment about wrestling best vs. best.
g.t. i love competition. we send our kids where ever the toughest competition is. we put our kids in situations to lose, which sometimes we do. don't even think i need to make excuses for my kid or team to lose. i nstarted my post because several people were stating how ks. was underdogs on paper. i was just showing facts of why i don't buy that, never said anything about winning and losing. as for your other statement i don't think you know how the organizers planned it. when event first started 2 mo. coaches organized it off the dapper dan tournament in pa. the boundaries were set up the same as the k.c. star uses for their all metro teams, hence the name K.C. METRO CLASSIC. after a few or more years of mo. dominating the ks. side asked for some concession and given and kept reaching out farther and farther not always with mo. blessing. when you keep stating how on paper you're underdogs, your the ones making excuses if you lose or if you win what a showing, a no lose situation. bottom line, which ever team wins it's because their the best team on the mat tonight.
There were 3 145s last year and I assume Pyle was KS's best, everyone knew Nay was MO's best.
Back to my earlier comment about wrestling best vs. best.
Nay's record was 29-5 while Pyle's opponent's record was 32-0.
You can't compare OakPark's national schedule to whoever it was that was 32-0. Nay was a 4 time state champ. I don't even know who the other 145 was for Mo last year. Nay is a stud. That said you wrestle who is put in front of you. Pyle beat who was put on the mat with him. You can't fault him for that just don't try to imply Nay was not as good.
24/7
this mileage "discussion" (read: whining) is ridiculous.
I'm from KS, and quite honestly I couldn't care less what team wins, and when it comes down to it, I don't think the organizers/coaches care that much either. We all just want to see the best matches we can get.
If KS had a 3 or 4 timer and MO had to go out of the "magic radius" to find a stud, great, bring 'em - let's see the best match we can see.
If there were something riding on the outcome - sure, load the thing up with rules, but there isn't. It's for fun. It's for entertainment. Most importantly it's for the kids to showcase thier talents and have one more match against great competition.
This is a great treat for area wrestling fans - let's look at it like that instead of some study in statistics and geography.
I'm from MO and I would like to see MO win but mostly I want to see great matchups (best vs. best) so I agree with you on that point.
It is obvious that KS moves their line-up to whatever they feel gives them the best opportunity to win the dual, any coach would do that in a normal season or conference dual. They did it last year and again this year. My earlier point was that should not be what this event is about, exactly the same point you make.
I can assure you all the KS coaches and wrestlers were well aware of Nay's credentials and who MOs best 145 was last year regardless of record.
Enjoy it ladies and gentlenman - these young men are all very talented and I wish them the all the best. Their past achievemnts and work ethic will carry them a long way in the future - what ever that may be.
I couldn't care less what team wins, and when it comes down to it, I don't think the organizers/coaches care
I would rather have a study in demographics than just saying we don't care who wins or loses. That's just great. The coaches, without a doubt, care who wins; otherwise they wouldn't be there.
this mileage "discussion" (read: whining) is ridiculous.
I'm from KS, and quite honestly I couldn't care less what team wins, and when it comes down to it, I don't think the organizers/coaches care that much either. We all just want to see the best matches we can get.
If KS had a 3 or 4 timer and MO had to go out of the "magic radius" to find a stud, great, bring 'em - let's see the best match we can see.
If there were something riding on the outcome - sure, load the thing up with rules, but there isn't. It's for fun. It's for entertainment. Most importantly it's for the kids to showcase thier talents and have one more match against great competition.
This is a great treat for area wrestling fans - let's look at it like that instead of some study in statistics and geography.
We are all in agreement that we want to see the best matches possible. Your comment about not caring who wins is curiously laughable. The coaches don't care much either? Do you have a hospital gown on?
It is obvious that KS moves their line-up to whatever they feel gives them the best opportunity to win the dual, any coach would do that in a normal season or conference dual.
Do you know that for a fact? I certainly don't.
I don't even know HOW you could manipulate it. Do you have any specific examples?
They did it last year and again this year.
again, how?
I can assure you all the KS coaches and wrestlers were well aware of Nay's credentials and who MOs best 145 was last year regardless of record.
A quick google search -- this Nay kid was an '06 all-american. I'm guessing a lot of MO'ers expected him to wipe the floor with the KS farm kid.
That's the kind of stuff that makes events like this so great.
Coach Brown,
Why wouldn't you have set your Garmin last night on the way to weigh ins???? Or do you guys "bend" that rule and just not weigh in.Since it is so close to the metro it shouldn't be that big of a deal?? I know all the Missouri boys made weight at the same place last night.............I will agree that this was set up to be a fun event and should be left at that . Have fun be safe and wrestle hard boys!!!
They didn't wrestle him against Nay. Pyle was the best KS had and they did not want to wrestle him against Nay no big deal if I was the coach I would do everything I could to win the dual also.
We are all in agreement that we want to see the best matches possible. Your comment about not caring who wins is curiously laughable. The coaches don't care much either?
Of course they "want" to win. It's pride and bragging rights, that's all. In the grand scheme there is absolutely nothing at stake.
I "wanted" to win my east-west match, but I was already out of wrestling shape. I had other things on my mind. I lost a close match, whoopee.
I "want" to win at slap jack against my 8 yr old - that doesn't mean I stack the deck to make sure I do. (That's not at all a knock on MO's line up - I'm just trying to make a point)
I just don't know how you manipulate a wrestling line up when you have very few options at any given weight.
It's not like the coaches sit around waiting for the other side to post their line up so they can hand pick whatever kid they think has the best shot of beating them.
Do you have a hospital gown on?
I don't even know what that means.
Is that supposed to be a reference to a mental facility?
94,
So you "wanted to win" your east/west match as much as you want to win slap-jack against your 8 year old? Could that have anything to do with why you lost? The hospital gown would mean that you may not have a clear mind when you said the coaches don't care if they win. Let me assure you, they want to win. I also don't know where you got the "stacking the deck" analogy. Coaches prepare their line-up to give them the best opportunity to excel.
Addressing "the grand scheme of things"... Let's all be in agreement that this dual tonight has no eternal value. It's the year long grin that's the payoff!
Ok a couple of answers,
Didn't go last night, had to go to kids practice with my own 5 year old son, Jordan went on his own. We didn't bend any rules, he made weight with all the rest of them I believe. I am not a coach of the Metro, just a coach who has had the privelege of many of my wretlers in the meet.
Pyle wanted to wrestle Nay and was looking for a good match, the coaches decided what would be best to win the dual and that's what happened. I also am not comparing our schedule to Oak Parks but don't act like we just wrestle in JV tourneys. Should be great dual regardless.
Coach Brown
It is obvious that KS moves their line-up to whatever they feel gives them the best opportunity to win the dual, any coach would do that in a normal season or conference dual.
Do you know that for a fact? I certainly don't.
I don't even know HOW you could manipulate it. Do you have any specific examples?
They did it last year and again this year.
again, how?
I can assure you all the KS coaches and wrestlers were well aware of Nay's credentials and who MOs best 145 was last year regardless of record.
A quick google search -- this Nay kid was an '06 all-american. I'm guessing a lot of MO'ers expected him to wipe the floor with the KS farm kid.
That's the kind of stuff that makes events like this so great.
Do I know it for a fact? No, only the KS coaches know.
Do I have Specific examples of this year and last?
2007 best possiple match-up
Nay vs Pyle
2008 best possible match-up
McCormick vs Forrest - champ vs champ (both nationally ranked)
Disney vs Madison - champ vs champ (2 nationally vs 5 nationally)
Forrest has never lost to McCormick and Madison has never lost to Disney
Nay vs KS farm kid. 14-7 still a convincing win
None of what I post is fact only my opinions and observation of how everything plays out by reading this forum.
Ok you got your fact. I did not see the previous post before my reply.
So you "wanted to win" your east/west match as much as you want to win slap-jack against your 8 year old? Could that have anything to do with why you lost?
eh

maybe a little --
I had a college scholarship to worry about, and it wasn't for wrestling.
I probably didn't work out wrestling-wise for a total of 3 hrs between State and the E/W dual.
I also don't know where you got the "stacking the deck" analogy. Coaches prepare their line-up to give them the best opportunity to excel.
The way some previous posts describe KS's approach it just sounded to me like that was the impression some of the MO'ers got of the KS team.
I just don't get what's to prepare. For example - I remember in my e/w dual one kid couldn't get there, and there was NOBODY to fill in. They had to call a JR from a nearby school to come up, and he won.
You get the best kid from the area (that is available) at that weight. I just don't see what the fuss is all about.
Addressing "the grand scheme of things"... Let's all be in agreement that this dual tonight has no eternal value. It's the year long grin that's the payoff!
Can't argue with that.
One more point.
Tanenbaum vs Forrest should be a great matchup as well as McCormick vs Pierce, but I think this was a counter move to McCormick moving up to 125.
Coach Brown, I don't think the poster was comparing your schedule to Oak Parks. He was comparing the Plattsburg schedule to Oak Parks.
These are all great wrestlers and I can't wait till tonight.
Good luck to ALL wrestlers.
McCormick vs Forrest - champ vs champ (both nationally ranked)
119 vs 130?
Disney vs Madison - champ vs champ (2 nationally vs 5 nationally)
Forrest has never lost to McCormick and Madison has never lost to Disney
So to you it's better for the wrestlers to face the same guy YET AGAIN in an event like this rather than someone they've never faced? Exciting.
I find it WAY more appealing to give Zlatnik a chance to avenge his only loss in the past 3 years.
Nay-Pyle -- I'm completely lost on that. I can't figure out who wresled who or when, and what impact it had. Coach Brown said Sabetha has never lost and now it's Nay 14-7?

I guess the implication is that pyle dodged nay?
Ladies and Gentlemen, Boys and Girls, welcome to the "Greatest Show on Earth" Boy I hope the copyright police are on a donut break. This event is with out a doubt a magnificent showcase to conclude a scholastic season of wrestling. I have been fortunate to be asked to coach in this premier presentation of exceptional athletes three times and am humbled by the outstanding performances of both Kansas and Missouri.
As a very infrequent poster to this forum I will direct my statements to what I see as the most important issue when the Metro Classic Thread arrives each year. Graditude.
Thanks to the athletes for their committment, talent, and courage to take on one more great challenge in their senior year.
Thanks to Gary Ulmer, Randy Westfahl, and all those behind the scenes who make this happen each year.
Thanks to the fans who provide readers of this forum with hours of entertainment with your comments whether they are accurate, inacurate, or just plain crazy.
I understand that to many the radius, weighin, choice of participant, are critical issues but as Tommy Boy would say "Just let it go, man" Enjoy the matches and to the victor congrats
David Brown
It's the year long grin that's the payoff!
Two years but who's counting!
[Nay-Pyle -- I'm completely lost on that. I can't figure out who wresled who or when, and what impact it had. Coach Brown said Sabetha has never lost and now it's Nay 14-7?

I guess the implication is that pyle dodged nay?
Nay wrestled Hudgins last year and won 14-7. Pyle wrestled McClain and won. You ask for an exanple of how KS moved their lineup ...I thought. Impact is that move quite possibly won KS the dual last year 27-26. Good coaching move no argument, but many on both sides of the border want to see best vs best.
Not sure what you mean by 119 vs 130?
Forrest was 119, McCormick was 125, Tanenbaum was 130 during season. Forrest is at 119. Initially it was thought both KS wrestlers moved down one weight. Now McCormick is at 125 and Tanenbaum went down 2 weights to 119.
Tanenbaum was actually lighter than McCormick naturally. That's why he's wrestling down.
Ladies and Gentlemen, Boys and Girls, welcome to the "Greatest Show on Earth" Boy I hope the copyright police are on a donut break. This event is with out a doubt a magnificent showcase to conclude a scholastic season of wrestling. I have been fortunate to be asked to coach in this premier presentation of exceptional athletes three times and am humbled by the outstanding performances of both Kansas and Missouri.
As a very infrequent poster to this forum I will direct my statements to what I see as the most important issue when the Metro Classic Thread arrives each year. Graditude.
Thanks to the athletes for their committment, talent, and courage to take on one more great challenge in their senior year.
Thanks to Gary Ulmer, Randy Westfahl, and all those behind the scenes who make this happen each year.
Thanks to the fans who provide readers of this forum with hours of entertainment with your comments whether they are accurate, inacurate, or just plain crazy.
I understand that to many the radius, weighin, choice of participant, are critical issues but as Tommy Boy would say "Just let it go, man" Enjoy the matches and to the victor congrats
David Brown
Nice post David. See you guys at KCKCC!
Nay-Pyle -- I'm completely lost on that. I can't figure out who wrestled who or when, and what impact it had. Coach Brown said Sabetha has never lost and now it's Nay 14-7?

I guess the implication is that pyle dodged nay?
oh, wait - so they didn't wrestle. Pyle barely won and nay stomped his guy?
So Pyle, it's assumed, would have lost to Nay, and MO still would have had a good chance of winning the other match?
Ok - I can definitely see the draw to a Nay-Pyle match up, and if they took it away from Pyle even if he genuinely wanted it just to improve the chance of a team win that's a little disappointing to me.
It just seems to me this type of event should be a lot more about the best getting the best than the team score.
I guess I AM the weird one.
... your hospital gown is blowing up!
... and it has to be said, that in the "Battle of the Forums," in spite of the Showme's playing of the underdog card ... Kansas is kicking butt in the number of posts this afternoon!
... of course that may have to do with the demographics proving a lack of worthwhile employment on the Kansas side!!
... of course that may have to do with the demographics proving a lack of worthwhile employment on the Kansas side!!
Or that we're highly efficient and have a few minutes to burn here and there throughout the day
I know this has been on television in the past. Will it be televised this year and if it is does anyone know what channel on DIRECT TV will carry it?
They say it on Metro Sport on Friday night. I don't get that channel. I live to far out! Sorry just had to throw that in!
well ... heading out the door! I will have my usual play-by-play late, late tonight!
Go Team Kansas ... and knock some sense into those Showme's!
Didn't get to attend but was wondering is Sabetha still unbeaten at the Mo Kan dual??????
well ... it's over ... the paper champs are the REAL champs! Kansas fought valiantly but lose to a very solid Missouri team. The final score, Kansas 24 and Missouri 32!
I think if someone did a takedown comparison between Missouri and Kansas ... that would explain everything.
well ... it's over ... the paper champs are the REAL champs! Kansas fought valiantly but loss to a very solid Missouri team. The final score, Kansas 24 and Missouri 29!
Randy, Wasn't it 32-24? We were down by 11 going into the last two and Madison's win put us down by 14. Disney pinned Nelson to close it to 8 points. Some great match-ups tonight! Missouri earned it.
Didn't get to attend but was wondering is Sabetha still unbeaten at the Mo Kan dual??????
No - he was dominated by the Blue Springs kid.
Standouts to me:
Pierce - Kearny, MO
St. Louis - Platte Co., MO
Haynes - Oak Park, MO
Disney - Shawnee Hts, KS (WOW)
Was happy to see Hase dominate his opponent.
Dissapointed by Zlatnik - he owned 3A, but was dead 3:00 in against Madison.
Great show though - halfway through KS was in charge, but from 52 on MO took over.
Disney is a machine.
Maddison was the superior wrestler no doubts. I really wanted to see Disney and Maddison go at it. I think Zlatnik would have taken to that kid Disney wrestled also.
The winners:
112: Colin Hase (KS) defeats Nick Clemens (MO), 9-1.
119: Jake Tanenbaum (KS) loses to Justin Forrest (MO), 1-5.
125: Nathan McCormick (KS) is beaten by Colin Pierce (MO), 8-15.
130: Matt Noblet (KS) over Brock Lowe (MO), 6-0.
135: Russell Naylor (KS) edges by Jordan Peter (MO), 10-7.
135: Phillip Henes (KS) wins over Tyler Russell (MO), 5-0.
140: Aldon Isenberg (KS) loses to Tyler St. Louis (MO), 5-8.
145: Nick Flynn (KS) beats Wes Gorham (MO), 15-0.
152: Jordan Meyer (KS) is beaten by Chris Chionuma (MO), 6-21.
160: C.J. Randall (KS) loses to Marcus Armato (MO), 6-14.
171: Phil Witt (KS) is defeated by Clarence Neely, 7-11.
189: Matt Baker (KS) loses to Brent Haynes (MO), 2-16.
215: E.J. Walter (KS) is beaten by Kolton Kono (MO), 5-13.
285: Duane Zlatnik (KS) is defeated by Elijah Madison (MO), 4-9.
285: Atticus Disney (KS) beats Ebe Nelson (MO), by fall.
Missouri - 32
Kansas - 24
112 - Collin Hase (KS) majdec. Nick Clemons 9-1
119 - Justin Forrest (MO) dec. Jake Tanenbaum 5-1
125 - Colin Pierce (MO) dec. Nathan McCormick 15-8
130 - Matt Noblet (KS) dec. Brock Lowe 6-0
135 - Russell Naylor (KS) dec. Jordan Peter 10-7
135 - Phillip Henes (KS) dec. Tyler Russell 5-0
140 - Tyler St. Louis (MO dec. Aldon Isenberg 8-5
145 - Nick Flynn (KS) tech fall Wes Gorham 15-0
152 - Chris Chionuma (MO) tech fall Jordan Meyer 21-6
160 - Marcus Armato (MO) maj dec. CJ Randall 14-6
171 - Clarence Neely (MO) dec. Phil Witt 11-7
189 - Brent Haynes (MO) maj dec. Matt Baker 16-2
215 - Kolton Kono (MO) maj dec. EJ Walter 13-5
285 - Elijah Madison (MO) dec. Duane Zlatnik 9-4
285 - Atticus Disney (KS) pinned Ebe Nelson
Man, I typed that whole thing and you beat me Randy.
lol ... but you had the team score correct!
I was going to write up my synopsis but I'm fried!
I think Travius is dead on! Team Missouri was the better technicians on their feet! In a few of the matches, they took the Kansas lads to school and put on a takedown clinic!
We might have been a bit better on the mat but that wasn't enough to overcome a few of the Showme's athletes! An example would be Nick Flynn's win by tech fall with only two take downs. Missouri's Chris Chionuma's win by tech fall had only one near fall in the scoring! That was a scenario that was repeated throughout the night!
Good showing by the young men from Kansas and an even better showing by the young men from Missouri!
Man. Again, we are behind the 8 ball. Two of our toughest wrestlers match up with Pierce and St. Louis....As it stands, I see 29-23 MO.
Pretty good prediction. But, why did we have 2 KS guys wrestling each other at hwt?
[/quote]
Disney - Shawnee Hts, KS (WOW)
Disney is a machine.
We have not gotten the chance to see Atticus wrestle for about 3 years, but of course with Lucas being a heavyweight, we have kept up...but all I can to do is repeat from a previous post....WOW.
He was extremely impressive...I honestly do not think I have seen that much power and control in many wrestlers over the past years...especially a heavyweight....
By the way, he didn't look very heavy...what is he weighing?
Atticus is around 240 right now. He was down into the 225 range at one point in the season. He has been trying to pack on some wt.
I missed the final score prediction by 1 point. I had KS losing by 7. Oh, the what if's in that dual...
It's pretty easy see the benefits of drilling elbow passes to shots and front headlocks to head-in-the-hole for 30 minutes EVERYDAY like they do at OakPark, BlueSprings and some others. The MO kids dominate with these.
24/7
Mike,
I agree that there were several kids on the MO side with excellent elbow passess with others being masters of the front headlock, head in the hole, go behind.
Over the years, watched guys like Mitch Arnold (Bishop Carol) with a superb elbow pass and Tanner Gardner (while in high school) scoring repeatedly from the front headlock. Brent Fisher (Goddard) also great from the front headlock, head in the hole (hit Nick three times with it this year).
Will be studying the Metro tape in detail...think it is time to seriously incorporate these two techniques.
Mike
P.S. Also need to get Atticus to show us his
Harai Makikomi (sweeping wrap around)
That was sweeeeeeet! Not sure if he hit that after "missing the head and arm" or intentially set it up by throwing a head and arm.
Just by the looks of the individual scores, looks like lots of 'blow-outs'. Were there any 'tight'/exciting matches regarding the outcome?
Next year.....
Here are some Metro seniors to be:
Sharky Slyter
Tyler Stokes
Alan Callahan
Eric Grant
Jake Woten
Ryan Revoir
David Lalo
Greg Curtis
Jacob Nowak
Grant Hinkley
Brian Cain
Blake Greenfield
Jason Langford
Any others come to mind?
Just by the looks of the individual scores, looks like lots of 'blow-outs'. Were there any 'tight'/exciting matches regarding the outcome?
The only match that was "exciting" was the Naylor/Peter match, and not until the end when Naylor went to his back. The Isenberg/St Louis match was somewhat tight, basically 3 takedowns to 1, and a few escapes, but it wasn't a blowout.
BTW - the matches are linked up on the front page of
http://www.missouriwrestling.com
Next year.....
Here are some Metro seniors to be:
Sharky Slyter
Tyler Stokes
Alan Callahan
Eric Grant
Jake Woten
Ryan Revoir
David Lalo
Greg Curtis
Jacob Nowak
Grant Hinkley
Brian Cain
Blake Greenfield
Jason Langford
Any others come to mind?
Mac Bailey and 112lb from Oak Park.
Just by the looks of the individual scores, looks like lots of 'blow-outs'. Were there any 'tight'/exciting matches regarding the outcome?
All but 2 or 3 were good matches the better wrestler just seemed to find a way to score.
The 125 match was a good match - action from start to finish. With about 15-20 secs left Pierce got a takedown (I think, might have been a reversal) to go up by 9. They went out of bounds with about :03 left and McCormick got a quick reversal to get to within 7 and save a team point. KS fans apprecated the effort.
145 - 15-0 - Gorham tried, Flynn was just a much better wrestler in every phase.
152 - 21-6 - That one was a head scratcher...Chionuma had Meyer on defense from start to finish. For some reason I didn't get the impression there was a lot of difference in skill between the two. It just seemed Meyer wasn't willing to take any offense to the guy all.
160 - 14-6 - Armato was in an entirely different league when they were on their feet.
189 - 16-2 - The Haynes kid's just an animal.
215 - 13-5 - It was a mismatch. Walter wanted to tie up and shove back and forth like the run-of-the-mill hwt match. Kono on the other hand was great on his feet. Halfway through it looked like he got bored and started playing the shoving game. He seemed to be in control there too.
But no, I don't recall any last second takedowns with the toes in bounds or come from behind pins etc...
There was one match though -- I want to say the 135 Naylor v Peter - 10-7...The KS kid was on top and in control late (must have been 8-2 or 8-3), and got caught, reversed, and put on his back, but he fought off the pin and ended up with a reversal at the buzzer and the dec.
Just by the looks of the individual scores, looks like lots of 'blow-outs'. Were there any 'tight'/exciting matches regarding the outcome?
All but 2 or 3 were good matches the better wrestler just seemed to find a way to score.
The 125 match was a good match - action from start to finish. With about 15-20 secs left Pierce got a takedown (I think, might have been a reversal) to go up by 9. They went out of bounds with about :03 left and McCormick got a quick reversal to get to within 7 and save a team point. KS fans apprecated the effort.
I have to disagree with you regarding the 125# match. It appeared to me that Pierce got sloppy a couple of times which allowed McCormick to score at least 4 points. McCormick is an awesome wrestler but Pierce was the superior wrestler hands down, IMO. To me that was suppose to be the match of the night and I was disappointed, sometimes the big match leaves you scratching your head.
At 112, Hase had Clemens flat. The camera should have the perfect angle on that. Look forward to the replay. Had to laugh at the call from a KS fan in the next period, "Pin him again!"
I have to disagree with you regarding the 125# match. It appeared to me that Pierce got sloppy a couple of times which allowed McCormick to score at least 4 points. McCormick is an awesome wrestler but Pierce was the superior wrestler hands down, IMO. To me that was suppose to be the match of the night and I was disappointed, sometimes the big match leaves you scratching your head.
Maybe the difference is I had no expectation at all - I saw a kid battling for whatever he could get against what appeared to be a more talented opponent.
At 112, Hase had Clemens flat. The camera should have the perfect angle on that. Look forward to the replay. Had to laugh at the call from a KS fan in the next period, "Pin him again!"
Agreed, of course I was sitting right behind Colin's parents

Edit: I just watched it again -- that was a pretty long 2 count, but I guess they all call it a little different.
in years past its seemed like the mo kids gased early (due to the 3 week layoff), but last night i saw more ks kids dragging late.
12 hase had clemens burried deserved the fall; 19 never thought tannenbaum opened up; 25 pierce seperated himself both successful collegiate wrestlers; 30 noblet is never out of position especially on his feet , always attacking; 35 naylor controlled, got scary late; 35 personally, i haven't given henes enough credit he's next level; 40 isenberg is D1 st. louis is that much better; 45 i've watched flynn for 4 years now dont know why its taken me this long to buy in, he's good; 52 that wasn't the same meyer i've watched the past 2 years, but not sure he's seen anyone with that much skill chionuma will excel at the naia level; 60 i liked our chances on this one (on paper) armato must struggle at the state tourneys (cadet greco AA); 71 witt had his chance on top 3 turns for 2 gotta finish one of those nice effort though; 89 bakers a very solid wrestler but he was outclassed. i'd like to see haynes and cotton hookup in Va; 15 kono is a nice looking 215 would be a scary 97 at the next level; 85 zlatnik has the tools u cant teach(6'5 270) madison is the better wrestler. shape was definitely an issue here. madison made him look bad late. look for zlatnik to rebound in Va; 85 disney as good as advertised. he also had nelson burried for way too long hilton call a fall! maybe we'll see madison vs disney in the finals in VA?
not as much electricity as years past but the ks fans were left sitting on our hands a lot with some of the mo lopsided victories. proud of their efforts but those dirty, nasty, and ugly mo kids were better this year oh, and they stink too! good work mo, see ya next year.
... nice report lake! You were looking over my shoulder!!
I have filed a report with the Jubster to post later!
already read ur writeup, even though i attend every year i always read it and enjoy ur insight. i'm not sure i know anyone who has more passion, respect, and knowledge of our sport. i heard disney needs a workout partner for nationals, you in? see ya in salina randy
... and for the matter, Gold 94 had to be pretty close to!
Thanks for your kind words!
... and Disney knows who marinates his porkchop!
I kind of got a kick out of the idea that Flynn was an example of us being poor on our feet last night because he only got two takedowns in a tech fall. He could have gotten 100 takedowns in a row if he hadn't been so busy hammering from the top. lol I agree with you we weren't very good on our feet in those upper weight matches but the team that loses this meet can always say that. It is a year to year deal. Sometimes I think a broad judgement on superiority of one over the other based on a state line is way to simplistic. We knew a year ago that this Mo team would be very rough to handle. One of those deals, one of those years.
By the way, we are not really being dominated by "the state" of Missouri, rather we are being hammered by Oak Park High School. Hey they have been just as busy whaling on the rest of the state of Missouri. You know if Oak Park wasn't over there a whole lot of those wins would have dissapeared. The rest of the state of MO has been no more successful with them than we have in this meet. They are tough. Like Ark City in their hay day or many other schools in many other states. The Missouri side takes a lot of credit for their success in this meet but most of that success has come from two or three programs and a whole lot of it from Oak Park. They are something and I tip my hat to Gary and the job they have done there.
Westfahl - If Oak Park wasn't there Brent Haynes would still be from Missouri, Marcus would still be from Missouri, etc.... I remember most of those kids wrestling with the Competitors program long before high school. They were good then. If Oak Park wasn't around they would still be wrestling somewhere in Missouri and still be good. Maybe in a different singlet.
this may have been posted already but the videos can be seen on Missouriwrestling.com The link to Atticus match doesn't work but it is
http://missouriwrestling.com/videos/kcmetro/285a.php
whoever's responsible for getting those vids up - that is VERY cool. I wish that sort of work were done for more major tournament finals. I have no idea what all it requires, but well done.
Hey Disney; Do you think Zach Roberson (the best wrestler who ever wrestled in this meet) was as good as he was because he was from Kansas? That just the nature of the state he was in was responsible for him being what he was. Oak Park scored 260 some points in the Missouri State meet because they are darn good at what they do and Gary and some others have done a marvelous job but do you really think just because they live in Missouri that that will always be the case. Not going to happen, it comes and it goes and there is a cycle to everything and one night or specifically last night does not endow one state with lifelong superiority. If you dont think Oak Park right now is a long ways above anything else Missouri has to offer and I dont just mean the metro, I think you really undersell what it is that program has done. They are right now, what Ark City was years ago, they are national good. Nobody else in Missouri or Kansas for that matter is at that level right now. I'm not slamming the state of Missouri or Kansas with this but I am not naive enough to think that based on one night of wrestling you can make some sweeping statement about how good a whole state is when the big chunk of that statement is coming out of one or two rooms.
Next year.....
Here are some Metro seniors to be:
Sharky Slyter
Tyler Stokes
Alan Callahan
Eric Grant
Jake Woten
Ryan Revoir
David Lalo
Greg Curtis
Jacob Nowak
Grant Hinkley
Brian Cain
Blake Greenfield
Jason Langford
Any others come to mind?
chaz lawrence should be added to that list
My post isn't putting Oak Park down in any manner. Take a breath and reread it....slower this time. I agree Oak Park is great. And my son owes Coach Mayab alot for help that he has provided him along the way.
But you said "if Oak Park wasn't there a whole lot of those wins would have disappeared." My point is that Haynes would have found a place to be sucessful, Marcus Armato would have found a place to be sucessful and etc. Maybe not as good as Coach Mayab made them but they still would have been good. So I don't think you can say that if Oak Park wasn't there that Haynes wouldn't be there and wouldn't have won and the same with the other Oak Park guys. They would have been there. Just representing another high school and still winning. Zach Roberson illustrates my point. He was going to find a way to be good not matter what. I think a lot of the Oak Park kids are the same way. Even if there was no Oak Park they would hav found a way to be good.
The point I am making is that I see a lot of kind of silly banter about one state or the other being superior on their feet or as wrestlers in general and the whole side of the metro isnt showing that. I do think that they (Oak Park) are getting their kids to a very high level and I don't believe those same kids would be that way just anywhere they went. That kind of wrestling doesn't happen because the water is better on one side or the other, it happens because they are outworking everyone over there and everyone over here. My point is the rest of the state of Missouri is not our problem. You look at the history of this thing and the most any program in Kansas has won is 7, Mo is dominated by Oak Park, Oak Grove, Park Hill and Blue Springs and mostly the first two. Yet in the history of the event there is only about 20 matches difference in the two states. The original statement I object to is that whatever happened last night shows some superiority by the "Missouri" kids on their feet and I just think Oak Park is just as superior at the state meet in that regard as they are in the metro meet. Hard to make that generalization based on last night like it would have been the last two years the other way. Hey Haynes is real real good. Next year there will be some other kid that is real real good. I read what he said in the paper this morning. I like the way he wrestles a lot more than the way he is quoted (not being sure that is what he actually said). lol by the way I read pretty well at any speed.
i really thought kansas would win
By the way please don't take this as some sign of disrespect for anyone on either side of the line. I respect in my heart any kid who works as hard as all those kids in that meet last night, for both teams, have worked to get to the level they are right now. I just don't believe in geography being a factor, or the birthrite of one state or the other. That part of this rivalry sort of feels wrong to me in many ways. I just have met too many good people on both sides of the line to make those judgements.
zlatnik was gassed when he wrestled madison
Paper Clip I love your optimism. We knew it would be a real challenge this year. We sort of talked about this team last year as one we would really have to pull out the stops to stay with and as you can see, they were a real load.
zlatnik was gassed when he wrestled madison
did anyone else watch him shake the opposing coach's hand then go directly to the nearest trash can ??

In no way is this an excuse - but I can't help but wonder if he wasn't quite healthy. He was DONE 1/2 way through the match.
Zlatnik hadn't wrestled an entire match since the first tournament of the season. Also has been battling a sinus infection for about the last two months that he had to miss a lot of practice time for. Not and excuse because I don't think it would have mattered I think Madison is always going to be 2-4 points better.
Westfahl -
I agree with you that Oak Park / Gary Mayab takes kids to a whole new level and that a state line means nothing. I probably read your first post too literally.
I wish I knew you could read fast because then I would not have typed my posts so slow.
Another point to make for Duane. It does not help when there is not a good group of 285 in the state with the exception to DISNEY. These 2 did not get to wrestle as some did not want to continue the shawnee couty classic. So it makes it tough to really even go a full 3 periods in a dual or tourney. Which nothing ever went past the 2 period with him,most of the time it was over with before the first minute. Then you also factor in dual matches where a kid would scratch, but wrestle every other match. This happened several times this year. Then there is the practice room, a kid that big and a town that small you just get that many 285/215 kids, that wrestle or want to wrestle so the one taking the beating is the coach and he has many battle wounds from the last 4 years. Did Duane wrestle great that night NO but it was for fun and the better wrestler won and that is why he is where he goes to school and where he is ranked. You mentioned him hanging over the trash can well maybe he was not feeling good nothing ever came out. And probably being gast was a majority of it-big deal.
First, let me acknowledge that I am a SME Lancer and very loyal to our wrestlers. Everyone is talking about Haynes and rightly so, he is a beast. There is a reason that he is highly ranked nationally and has already signed to wrestle for MU. Despite the fact that Haynes is obviously the better wrestler, I would like to point out that Baker fought off his back to avoid the pin and scored a reversal to hold off the tech fall. Some credit needs to be given to all of our wrestlers who are willing to represent Kansas, work hard in extra practices and put it on the line in a high-profile event against sometimes overwhelming odds.
Congratulations to the Missouri side. My thoughts on Oak Park ... It is a great program for wrestlers who want to compete at a higher level to get ready for D1 wrestling. A lot of states have teams like that. If I was a wrestler or parent whose goal was to win an NCAA D1 title, I would move to Oak Park to better myself, just like some MO kids and KS kids do. Nothing wrong with that. In terms of Ark City and Hoxie when those teams were nationally ranked, I don't think anybody ever moved to those towns. I'd rather move to Hoxie than KC, however.
I think Randy had is right just used a bad example. So Randy I will help you out. In stood of using the Nick Flynn match ((which was a poor match up)) So lets look at the 171 - Clarence Neely (MO) dec. Phil Witt 11-7 match up.
Neely completely dominated the first period with 3-4 takedowns. Taking a lead of somethin like 6-2. The next period Witt completely dominated the match even taking a 7-6 lead going into the final period while riding the missouri wrestler out. It was clear that when we (Kansas kids got on the mat we could put the Show Me's on their back) . How ever the third period was decided with a takedown which did lead to a nearfall and the missouri win.
also notice how many time did the missouri wrestlers opt out of referee's position and start neutral. I'm not gonna the missouri wrestlers cant wrestle on the mat, honestly I couldnt tell you because they were never down there unless they were losing.
If you can take your opponent down there is no real reason to ever get on the mat. if your a good mat wrestler you still have to get the takedown FIRST before u can get into a riding position.
I agree with Randy these match up dont mean that everyone in KS sucks on their feet and everyone in MO needs mat work. But I will tell you from 152 up its was no fun for the KS side while a takedown clinic was run for the next hour.
Maybe KS coaches need to think about whats really better takedowns or matwork and re calibrate heir styles accordingly.
AND one last thing to consider... EXPERIENCE... In some of the match ups I dont think the MO guys were overwhelmingly better than their KS counterparts but their ability to extensively coach their kids, their freestyle and greco really ads to the number of QUALITY matches they have against upper level opposition.
Last year was my first year being involved with freestyle/greco and i think its somethin that should be pushed FAR more than folkstyle. even if that means shorting up the season or reducing opportunities for the 16U. I was a folkstye guy for a long time. When I wrestled I didnt get involved in kids club till I was in high school and it was a great experience for me. However, if someone said well your too old to wrestle 16U so you should do freestyle... in stood of just wrestling it march I most likely would have continued to wrestle FR/GR well into the spring. After last year and my experience with freestyle/greco I think its a must.
Sorry it was long I havnt posted anything in a long time so had to get that all out..
Travius
No proofreading so read at your own will.
Duane was facing us when he hurt his shoulder. I think that hurt a lot more then we know and he continued on will alone. I beleive he was at the trash can not b/c of conditioning but because of the nausea from the shoulder. I was really scared it was serious but apparently it wasn't. However, I think that was the turning point for him.
Travius,
Here is a different spin on your thoughts. If we go to more of a freestyle format and continue to legislate out wrestling on the mat with our rules, why don't we just change the name of the sport to Men and Women's Takedowns, or maybe Limited Wrestling.
I know those new titles are goofy, but that is where we are going. We are so restricting our wrestlers to takedowns only, that we are taking the wrestling right out of it. Might it be that the wrestler who lets his opponent up continuously is stalling? How about avoiding wrestling? I love freestyle and Greco-Roman wrestling, but lets call them for what they are, very limiting forms of wrestling.
Time Stands Still
Time stands still-your spin is way off.
24/7
I thought nick flyn wrestled pretty well wednesday night
I've looked back to the post I made Wednesday night. I thought maybe, at the late night hour, perhaps I in some way slighted the skills of Nick Flynn!
Nick is a fantastic wrestler that comes from an outstanding family! My intentions were to suggest, that Nick had "all aspects" of wrestling within his toolbox! Nick won the match, 15-0 with a pair of takedowns and a bunch of near falls!
To me, that shows a well-rounded skill set. A wrestler that wins a match 20-5 where he wrestles predominantly on his feet shows a different set. Now, that is not to say that in a 6-minute match, we get to see the entire toolbox of a wrestler. We only get to see the tools that are displayed!
Now, I do feel, that the ability to ride and turn will pay-off at the collegiate level!
We saw a few examples of the ability to ride and turn (or at least to work for the turn). Collin Hase, Phillip Henes, Nick Flynn, and Phil Witt showed that they have these abilities!
With all the OP talk, keep in mind that perhaps their best wrestler, Dylan Joiner, did not participate in the MO/Kan. We would have been at 145.
I think one of the biggest problems with youth wrestling that carries over to HS is that wrestlers aren't very good on their feet. If you look at the best wrestlers in the country outside of KS & MO (ie: David Taylor, Jordan Oliver & etc), they all are excellent wrestlers on their feet. They do have the other skill sets but the matches start on your feet.
I have my son workout with a couple of KS best wrestlers (Tommy Williams & Bryce Shoemaker) after practice doing live takedowns. They have helped him out alot and hopefully we've done the same for them. The KS parents have been kind enough to allow them to work with my son. We apprecicate it alot.
When you have a wrestler who can do a takedown clinic on his opponent, it forces that opponent to have to pin his guy to win the match (ie: Neely vs Witt, Armoto vs Randell and Pierce vs McCormick). I do believe you need to be good at mat wrestling as well but at the same time, you start on your feet. You have to be able to protect your legs or it's going to be a long day. The same can be said for college wrestlers. The best wrestlers in college can't hold down or get back points against tough opponents and they end up back in neutral position, takedowns are very important.
This is an interesting topic and it shows that MO & KS styles are different and in the end, both states are tough and we enjoy this event year after year. We'll be back next year.
i thought the last match at the metro would be a good match, but DISNEY handled that kid
i would of liked to see DISNEY take on MADISON
i'll agree it's obvious u have to be good on your feet at the next level. but i enjoy watching some of the great top wrestlers in the country like nick simmons Mich st, jason ness Minn, coleman scott OSU, and mark perry Iowa. i think the lesson is be prepared to get off bottom or any one of these fellas could make it a long night for ya. i grew up with the the coaching "if u can can take him down and escape him, you'll win" but over the years i've come to appreciate the good top guys. the match that sticks out most in my mind from metro,(i know it was already brought up) is is witt vs neely. neely was BA on his feet. then witt chooses top and neely looks lost on bottom. if u watch the film you'll see his feet up in the air while he's on bottom. it's obvious he's not trained to be in that position. bottom line train to be good in all 3 phases.
when was the last disney madison matchup? i thought it has been a couple years.
i never knew they ever wrestled each other
did anyone see madisons thighs they were HUGE
lakemats,
Very good point about the Neely vs Witt. Witt was very impressive on top. If Witt could've gotten a takedown, the match could've went the other way. The advantage that Neely and others have is that the 1st period is on your feet. When they get their choice, on their feet again. So they have 2 shots vs their opponents who will only have once choice.
My son has been runner up at National events because his opponent (nemesis) is better on his feet. He's lost by 2 or less points via his nemesis because of a takedown. They both are equal on the mat. Also, my son has lost to Zac Gentzler a couple of times by 2 points because Zac skills on his feet are excellent. I guess that's why I feel that the neutral position is so important. Also, watching the best HS & college wrestler has pointed me in that direction.
I stress to my son all the time that you must protect your legs and get a takedown. He does pretty good on the mat but has alot of work to do on his feet. Blue Springs are Oak Park good from the neutral position and I personally do like watching that phase of their wrestling. Haynes is awesome on top and always has been. I'll be following him during his time at Mizzou along with seeing how well Disney does at Minn.
"Another point to make for Duane. It does not help when there is not a good group of 285 in the state with the exception to DISNEY."
I do not agree with the above statement. I believe you can look at all the 285 qualifiers, placers and other state champions in 6A, 5A, 4A and 3-2-1A and you would find a good group of wrestlers. I looked at Intermat's national all class ranking that was done in December of 2007 and Elijah Madison was rated second in the nation, Atticus Disney was ranked 6th and Duane was ranked 13th, Steve Andrus was 14th so that means they are exceptional national ranked wrestlers. If you had said that Duane did not have enough national caliber competition during the year like Elijah, Atticus, and Andrus I could agree with that but I cannot agree that there is not a good group of heavyweights in our state besides Atticus and Duane. Those two are both 3 time state champions and definitely in a class by themselves in Kansas. They are both outstanding athletes and dominant wrestlers. I think they will both also be exceptional athletes in college.
I believe the main difference between Duane and Elijah this year probably has to do with the fact that Elijah has probably done a lot more summer wrestling over the last four years than Duane who has probably concentrated more on his future college and potential professional football career.
Atticus and Elijah have wrestled a few time outside the scholastic season!
At Fargo 2007 in the Greco division
Match #6 Elijah Madison (Missouri) over Atticus Disney (Kansas) Dec 4-0,1-1,2-2
At Fargo 2007 in the Freestyle division
Match #6 Elijah Madison (Missouri) over Atticus Disney (Kansas) Dec 2-0,1-0
Virginia Beach 2007, Junior division
Finally, it was Atticus Disney of Andover Central losing his match to Elijah Madison in the sudden victory round of overtime. The score was 2-3. Atticus wins the silver.
I am looking forward to a rematch in a few weeks!
If everyone takes care of business and wrestles one match at a time!
... also Romero and Haynes!!
All of the Senior National team will be fun to watch!!
Interesting side note is that the first match Elijah wrestled in his career was at the Wichita Wrestling Club tournament at Kapun Mt. Carmel High School way back in December of 1997. His very first opponent? Atticus Disney
Heavyweight Note: We are blessed to have all this talent in our area. Considering Elijah is really from KS that makes 4 in the top 20 nationally and 3 in the top 10 of various polls. All 4 are stud kids and nice kids-Atticus, Big Steve, Duane Z and Elijah. I set next to one of the Rossville coaches at the Classic who told me that Duane Z has had this recurring shoulder situation and he thouhgt it was that same injury that bothered him during the match. I have had people say that they thought Zlatnick should have beaten Madison, but I view Zlatnick as an athlete who is also a wrestler (a very good wrestler) and the other three, Atticus, Big Steve and Elijah, as primarily being wrestlers who wrestle year-round and have more skills and experience. I do not see it as any kind of disgrace or letdown to lose to Elijah, who is clearly one of the 5 best heavyweights nationally and has done virtually everything at his level except, inexplicably, win a HS state tournament. All four are great to watch and, again, good kids. We are lucky to get to watch them.
Tom Williams
Hi Everybody,
The U.S. Army Metro Classic for two weeks prior to its staging and for now two days afterward has been pounded to death. There has been over 15,000 hits on two websites in two states for one little dual (duel). The official count has not been made yet, but the Metro Committee thinks Wednesday night was their largest crowd ever. Last year over 3,000 people saw it, so let us say that 4,000 saw the Metro Classic this year. Then, how many more thousand will view it on television as Metro Sports plays it over and over again for the next two weeks? The committee is claiming to host the largest high school event in the Kansas City area, and do you know what? I will bet they are right, at least the largest indoor event.
Why would only a dual create such interest? Maybe the answer is that because it is a dual. Fans were there two hours, saw some of the finest athletes in high school sports, ate three hot dogs, had a ball, and went home assured that their ten bucks were well spent. Yes the two states create kind of a natural rivalry, but do you think that a two day 12 hour marathon tournament would have attracted as many fans, or maybe a better question is would it have created as many new ones?
My point is that duals are fun. I think we have driven off our fan with the huge tournaments. As our sport struggles with loss of programs, shrinking numbers, and a diminishing fan base maybe some of the blame is our own. We have made our sport so hard to watch only a few mat heads like myself will watch it. A simple dual is a great meet format. People pay a small amount of money, spend less than two hours, yell for their team, understand the scoring, be totally immersed into the event, eat a hot dog, and go home without the hangover that comes with watching 24 hours of wrestling in 48 hour period of time.
The Metro Classic was us and them and it does not get any better than that.
Gary Ulmer
My point is that duals are fun. I think we have driven off our fan with the huge tournaments. As our sport struggles with loss of programs, shrinking numbers, and a diminishing fan base maybe some of the blame is our own. We have made our sport so hard to watch only a few mat heads like myself will watch it. A simple dual is a great meet format. People pay a small amount of money, spend less than two hours, yell for their team, understand the scoring, be totally immersed into the event, eat a hot dog, and go home without the hangover that comes with watching 24 hours of wrestling in 48 hour period of time.
I couldn't agree more! Thanks and congratulations to all those responsible for putting on this event.
One last shot at this little technique argument I either started or responded to lol I can't remember. Travius I used exactly the example that I wanted to use. Nick Flynn was perfect on his feet. He got the takedowns he needed and hammered like a son of a gun from the top. My brother was the perfect example his junior year. He wrestled 28 matches, he only got 28 takedowns all year, he had no nearfalls, none absolutely zero. Now you all would probably say he was just pitiful on his feet and probably wasn't very good on the top. The trouble with that argument is that he had 28 falls too. He used to say if you don't let them back up you don't have to do all that work over again. That story is more funny than relevant but in Flynn's case, that is precisely the example I meant to use.
Gary,
You are right about the dual format. There is nothing like it. As much as everyone would like to see a grand state, a dual state meet would be a fan favorite. The Schoolboy, Middle School, Cadet and Junior duals pitting Kansas against the world is the ultimate us versus them competition. The wrestlers on those teams develop lifetime friendships and end up talking about the experience for years to come. For those of you who haven't seen those events, mark your calendar! They are right around the corner. You'll be hooked for life.
The attraction to this is the very reason why we are trying to start the "Border War Duels" at Ray-Pec High School. I have sent more emails than I can remember to Kansas schools trying to get this tournament going asking several of the current top programs to attend. I think it could be a great event for both states and is fifteen minutes from downtown Kansas City. The Border War Duels is currently consisting of five teams from both states. Is something we would like to expand so that it is a Friday/Saturday tournament that would feature the best teams from each state in a dual format against each other. Imagine having Bishop Carroll wrestling side by side with Goddard against Park Hill and Ray-Pec...the possibilities for fans would be endless!
... and I wish the Wichita area would get something going with Oklahoma!!!
We should have the Heartland Duals...
Kansas
Missouri
Nebraska
Oklahoma
Colorado
Iowa
... and I wish the Wichita area would get something going with Oklahoma!!!
And Wichita shares a State border with what town in Oklahoma?
Yes I left off Andrus(completely forgot about him since he has been quite due to his injury) and you could throw in Hackathorn but after that there would not be a kid that would last more than 2 periods with any of the 285 talked about on here. I guess people think, that if someone is givin all the hype either in the paper or news or chat boards they shouild come out and be this dominant athlete. Then if this does not happen they start to find their faults,well everyone is human and they are going to lose every now and then. I guess it is just frustrating to see this, when it was only a exhibition match and they say how they were disappointed in how someone wrestled. Good luck to alll the seniors going to Virginia.
I would like to thank Coach Westfahl and Coach Ulmer for all there work over the years! Yes, this has turned into quite the event.
It has grown quite a bit from a ballroom of an airport hotel!
... and yes Richard, I realize that Wichita does lie a bit North of the line.
But I just imagine a promoter could take the Wichita area; Wellington, Winfield, Ark City, maybe even Hutch and Newton. From Oklahoma; Perry, Enid, Ponca City, Bartlesville and maybe Stillwater and Tulsa. You could probably find enough wrestlers to have a little scuffle!
Perhaps have it in Ark City or maybe Blackwell!
I just spent 2 hours watching the Metro Sports broadcast of the Metro Classic. I was disappointed that they skipped the 171 & 189 lb matches. Have they done this in past years? It seems like a real slam to those 4 wrestlers. I would say even Missouri's Haynes would have liked more coverage.
Yes I left off Andrus(completely forgot about him since he has been quite due to his injury) and you could throw in Hackathorn but after that there would not be a kid that would last more than 2 periods with any of the 285 talked about on here. I guess people think, that if someone is givin all the hype either in the paper or news or chat boards they shouild come out and be this dominant athlete. Then if this does not happen they start to find their faults,well everyone is human and they are going to lose every now and then. I guess it is just frustrating to see this, when it was only a exhibition match and they say how they were disappointed in how someone wrestled. Good luck to alll the seniors going to Virginia.
I think it is commendable that you are defending Duane who lost to a Elijah a wrestler who was ranked as high as No. 2 heavyweight in the country by Intermat this year. I don't understand why you feel the need to knock down the rest of the heavyweight class in Kansas other than Duane, Atticus, and now I guess you have elevated Andrus and Hackathorn out of the non-good group of heavyweights in Kansas this year. In your first post on this topic you said basically that it didn't help Duane that there was not a good group of 285 wrestlers in Kansas this year other than Disney.
Now you appear to be saying that the rest of the heavyweights in Kansas could not get to the third period with Duane, Atticus, Andrus or Hackathorn. I can guarantee you that is incorrect and I could show you matches of Atticus, Andrus and Hackathorn that went into the third period with other Kansas heavyweights this year. Now Duane maybe pinned everyone else he wrestled in Kansas before the third period this year. He is so big and powerful that he can just physically dominate a majority of his opponents. I saw him at Eudora and Basehor this year. It seemed to me that he was on a mission to pin everyone he faced in the first period. It might have helped his match conditioning if he had not pinned so many of his opponents in the first period.
I can understand why you are upset with some of the things that have been posted about Duane concerning this match with Elijah. I am a parent of one of Kansas heavyweights that is a member of this group that you have described as a not a good group of heavyweights who cannot even get to the third period with the top four heavyweights that you have named. As a parent of one these other heavyweights I find your remarks just as upsetting as you are finding the critical remarks towards Duane.
The truth of the matter is that this is a very tough event to win at. You have some of the best wrestlers in Missouri, Kansas and the nation competing against each other. You have state champions going against state champions. Someone is going to lose. Sometimes great wrestlers lose in this event. Duane losing to a high national ranked wrestler is nothing to feel bad about. Duane Zlatnick is a 3 time Kansas state champion. It is not an easy task to win 3 state championships. I think he is one of the all time great heavyweights in Kansas high school history. But I also think you are making a mistake by slighting the other heavyweights in Kansas in defending Duane.
I do not have a dog in this fight, unfortunatly my son was not selected in last years bunch of 145 lbers. I do have a couple comments on the event though. As far as Nay last year,,,he was HANDS DOWN the best in Mo, would he have won, that will never be known. Now for the matter of weigh ins, who in their right mind can argue that if two kids are BOTH cutting weight, that the kid that gets more to eat/drink for a longer period of time will not have a HUGE advantage. Weigh ins need to ATLEAST be held at the SAME TIME, just to keep it fair to the kids. I would proprose that it be done infront of a coach from the opposite state. BTW I want to thank Mike Furches for the advice on college recruiting,,it certainly helped for my son.
Yes I left off Andrus(completely forgot about him since he has been quite due to his injury) and you could throw in Hackathorn but after that there would not be a kid that would last more than 2 periods with any of the 285 talked about on here. I guess people think, that if someone is givin all the hype either in the paper or news or chat boards they shouild come out and be this dominant athlete. Then if this does not happen they start to find their faults,well everyone is human and they are going to lose every now and then. I guess it is just frustrating to see this, when it was only a exhibition match and they say how they were disappointed in how someone wrestled. Good luck to alll the seniors going to Virginia.
I think it is commendable that you are defending Duane who lost to a Elijah a wrestler who was ranked as high as No. 2 heavyweight in the country by Intermat this year. I don't understand why you feel the need to knock down the rest of the heavyweight class in Kansas other than Duane, Atticus, and now I guess you have elevated Andrus and Hackathorn out of the non-good group of heavyweights in Kansas this year. In your first post on this topic you said basically that it didn't help Duane that there was not a good group of 285 wrestlers in Kansas this year other than Disney.
Now you appear to be saying that the rest of the heavyweights in Kansas could not get to the third period with Duane, Atticus, Andrus or Hackathorn. I can guarantee you that is incorrect and I could show you matches of Atticus, Andrus and Hackathorn that went into the third period with other Kansas heavyweights this year. Now Duane maybe pinned everyone else he wrestled in Kansas before the third period this year. He is so big and powerful that he can just physically dominate a majority of his opponents. I saw him at Eudora and Basehor this year. It seemed to me that he was on a mission to pin everyone he faced in the first period. It might have helped his match conditioning if he had not pinned so many of his opponents in the first period.
I can understand why you are upset with some of the things that have been posted about Duane concerning this match with Elijah. I am a parent of one of Kansas heavyweights that is a member of this group that you have described as a not a good group of heavyweights who cannot even get to the third period with the top four heavyweights that you have named. As a parent of one these other heavyweights I find your remarks just as upsetting as you are finding the critical remarks towards Duane.
The truth of the matter is that this is a very tough event to win at. You have some of the best wrestlers in Missouri, Kansas and the nation competing against each other. You have state champions going against state champions. Someone is going to lose. Sometimes great wrestlers lose in this event. Duane losing to a high national ranked wrestler is nothing to feel bad about. Duane Zlatnick is a 3 time Kansas state champion. It is not an easy task to win 3 state championships. I think he is one of the all time great heavyweights in Kansas high school history. But I also think you are making a mistake by slighting the other heavyweights in Kansas in defending Duane.
Mr Nowak,
I think what Springboard was saying is that there was a clear distinction between Disney, Andrus, and Zlatnik and the rest of the Heavyweights in the state. I don't think he meant to rip on the rest of the heavyweights nearly as much as he meant to show the distinction between the three at the top and the rest of the group. There was some very good 285ers in the state like Jacob, Hackathorn, BJ Finney, Lucas Vincent just to name a few.
What Springy was trying to imply that while they are good wrestlers they were not on the top level. I do believe Duane was not in tip top shape as he only wrestled on full match the entire year and that was at the first tournament of the year way back in December. Thats not a knock on the people he beat just stating the facts. I do believe that Hackathorn, 4A champ, wrestled Zlatnik twice, I know Jacob wrestled Duane once, maybe twice my memory isn't working for me today, and Duane wrestled Finny once and none of them went the Distance with him. Again not implying that they aren't good wrestlers, as I believe Finney and Lucas will both push for state titles next year and Hackathorn has already gotten his.
Again I want to say that this isn't a slam on the 285ers in Kansas, I am just saying that for the most part you had Steve, Atticus, and Duane then everyone else.
Dawg:
If Springboard had stated it the way you did, I would have been fine with it. I stated in my first reply to Springboard's first post that Duane, Atticus and Andrus were national ranked wrestlers who were in a class by themselves in Kansas this year. If Springboard had just stated that one thing that hindered Duane's conditioning this year was that he overpowered most of his opponents with quick first period pins, I would not have found that acceptable. That is not how he put it and his second post was not much better in his description of the other Kansas heavyweights. He may not have intended to criticize the other Kansas heavyweights but he did in his posts.
Jacob only faced Duane twice the last two years both times at the Bobcat in the finals last year and in the semifinal this year. Both times Duane overpowered Jacob and pinned him in the second period of both matches. I have been a big fan of Duane's ever since that first match. I think he is incredibly powerful and fast athlete who has a great future. He also seems like a real nice young man. I know Jacob likes him and has a great deal of respect for him. We wish him the best of luck in his football career at KU.
I can guarantee Mr. Springboard did not mean to put anyone other wrestler down, we we have our own wrestler that hasn't quite filled his cousin's shoes yet, and for that point, may never (but it doesn't mean that he doesn't work as hard, just a little less fortunate in the Zlatnik height gene pool). As for the last 2 years we have been listening to people bag on Duane. That tends to put us on the defensive quick. Mr. Springboard doesn't always word things the way he means, I know - I've lived with him for 16 years. If he offended anyone, we are truly sorry. Just be glad he didn't type it in all caps, another message board "no-no" he doesn't get.
Mrs. Springboard
PS the only reason that he is not responding to this himself is because he hasn't seen it and I did.
what kind of idiot would bag on zlatnik on here? he's scary enough to rip off your arms but nice enough to hand them back tou and tell u good game.
i said earlier on this thread that zlatnik gased against madison. he did. but as a regular reader on here i cant say i've ever read anything bad about duane zlatnik as a wrestler or kid.
Springys are used to it from the CJonline boards.
Renegade and Railer,
You missed my point, duels are fun--us and them. Not duel tournaments, not multi-day multi-team mega meets, not us and them and them and them and them. In one and one half hours it is over including J.V. and your fan has had a great time.
Wrestling is an increditable spectator sport. Let us let the spectator back into it.
Gary Ulmer
Renegade and Railer,
You missed my point, duels are fun--us and them. Not duel tournaments, not multi-day multi-team mega meets, not us and them and them and them and them. In one and one half hours it is over including J.V. and your fan has had a great time.
Wrestling is an increditable spectator sport. Let us let the spectator back into it.
i agree with your point but on a related note, it should be for the wrestlers. 8-10 matches in 2 days IMO is best for them.
Gary Ulmer
Renegade and Railer,
You missed my point, duels are fun--us and them. Not duel tournaments, not multi-day multi-team mega meets, not us and them and them and them and them. In one and one half hours it is over including J.V. and your fan has had a great time.
Wrestling is an increditable spectator sport. Let us let the spectator back into it.
Gary Ulmer
Gary,
I like a good dual too. I actually really like the tournament duals. The EKL dual tournament is one of my favorites. I also agree with you that this Metro Classic tournament is great for the spectators. Part of that attraction is it is an All-Star tournament with the border war aspect attached to it.
During the regular high school wrestling season, I have noticed though that a lot of teams just are not able to field a full dual team. It is not too impressive to fans when you get four or five guys from one team just going out to the mat to have their hands raised. That is actually kind of boring for them.
The other thing isn't there some type of restriction in Kansas as to how many matches that a Kansas high school wrestler can wrestle during the season? It is my understanding that is part of the reason why teams have gone more to tournaments than duals in their schedules. I think it has something to do with the fact that there is some point system and that tournaments do not count for that many more points than a regular dual. I am not positive of that but maybe someone could clarify that. I have heard that Missouri is not as restrictive and I think their wrestlers generally end up with more matches and their schools do seem to have more duals during the year.
The other thing isn't there some type of restriction in Kansas as to how many matches that a Kansas high school wrestler can wrestle during the season?
No!
It is my understanding that is part of the reason why teams have gone more to tournaments than duals in their schedules.
The trend is to attend Dual Team Tournaments to increase the number of individual matches. If STA attends a two day dual team tournament each wrestler has the opportunity to wrestle five (5) matches per day.
I think it has something to do with the fact that there is some point system and that tournaments do not count for that many more points than a regular dual. I am not positive of that but maybe someone could clarify that.
KSHSAA rule regarding point system is as follows:
"No student representing a member high school shall participate in more than 18 events and no more than 30 competitions points during a season, exclusive of the state championship series.
Dual 1 point
Double Dual 2 points
Quad (Triple Dual) 3 points
One-day Tournament 3 points
Two-day Tournament 4 points
I have heard that Missouri is not as restrictive and I think their wrestlers generally end up with more matches and their schools do seem to have more duals during the year.
In Missouri:
"An individual wrestler shall represent his/her school in no more than a maximum of 50 matches, whether they are scoring or not, prior to the district tournament as per MSHSAA By-Law 381."
In Kansas:
The KSHSAA has no restriction on the number of individual matches a wrestler may participate in during the season.
I have heard that Missouri is not as restrictive and I think their wrestlers generally end up with more matches and their schools do seem to have more duals during the year.
In Missouri:
"An individual wrestler shall represent his/her school in no more than a maximum of 50 matches, whether they are scoring or not, prior to the district tournament as per MSHSAA By-Law 381."
In Kansas:
The KSHSAA has no restriction on the number of individual matches a wrestler may participate in during the season. [/quote]
NOT Cracking on you in any way, shape or form Richard...but,
I'd like to see how a Kansas kid could wrestle up to the 50 match limit of our neighbor, using the point system as KSHSAA uses.
I'm not on the side of counting points/matches, but I am curious as to when KSHSAA implimented this, as I don't recall this being spoken about in the 80's when my brothers and I wrestled.
Shane,
Not that I am taking Richard's side by no means. But by Kansas regulations a wrestler could wrestle in 6 two day dual tournaments with 12 teams and could have the chance to wrestle 60 matches in those weekends as well as 6 more duals. This could get them a total of 66 matches. But none of this would ever happened just thought I would throw that thought in.
I'm not saying anything about Richard, MAKE THAT CLEAR!!!
I was just taking the good info he provided and was wondering what a Kansas kid "could possibly do" and still meet the 30 point rule. I just always hear about how kids from OK, CO, MO, etc have larger number of matches than what KS kids get. SO I thought I'd just ask and see what the possibility sould be.
One that note, what is the largest/ave amount that our kids get?
One that note, what is the largest/ave amount that our kids get?
KSHSAA State Tournament data provides the following:
The information is from randomly selected teams.
Class 6A
Blue Valley North High School
Weight Name Year Record
103 Nick Colbert 10 20- 26 - 46 Matches
112 Zach Tanenbaum 9 36- 5 - 41 Matches
125 Nathan McCormick 12 43- 1 - 44 Matches
130 Jake Tanenbaum 12 41- 2 - 43 Matches
135 Tony Livengood 12 30- 4 - 34 Matches
Manhattan High School
Weight Name Year Record
103 Jeff Vesta 11 37- 1 - 38 Matches
112 Dane Norris 9 25- 14 - 39 Matches
119 Kevin Frazier 12 26- 20 - 46 Matches
125 Lucas Wagner 11 29- 20 - 49 Matches
130 Mitch Henderson 12 32- 13 - 45 Matches
135 Jacob Wagner 12 30- 5 - 35 Matches
140 Tucker Adams 12 35- 14 - 49 Matches
145 Steve Miller 12 32- 3 - 35 Matches
152 Jed Sicard 12 28- 13 - 41 Matches
171 Tyler West 11 27- 12 - 39 Matches
215 Eric Rowlands 12 22- 17 - 39 Matches
Class 5A
Emporia High School
Weight Name Year Record
112 Jared Dakin 11 27- 12 - 39 Matches
119 Justin Rose 11 33- 6 - 39 Matches
125 Sal Tovar 11 35- 8 - 43 Matches
135 Tavo Dikin 11 27- 14 - 41 Matches
140 Zeb Peak 11 25- 15 - 40 Matches
152 Logan Gaskill 10 23- 14 - 37 Matches
189 Mark Kolmer 10 19- 3 - 22 Matches
215 Ryan Bass 12 17- 20 - 37 Matches
285 Josh Rodriguez 12 23- 9 - 32 Matches
Gardner-Edgerton
Weight Name Year Record
103 Scott Parks 12 29- 12 - 41 Matches
112 Tyler Stokes 11 28- 2 - 30 Matches
119 Zach Litvak 9 14- 13 - 27 Matches
125 Kyle Hess 12 30- 11 - 41 Matches
130 Micah Flora-Swick 10 25- 14 - 39 Matches
135 Jacob Ingram 10 20- 12 - 32 Matches
140 Aldon Isenberg 12 31- 1 - 32 Matches
145 Todd Curtis 10 39- 4 - 43 Matches
152 Jake Akin 10 24- 15 - 39 Matches
160 Greg Curtis 11 37- 6 - 43 Matches
189 Kyle Pacheco 9 17- 17 - 34 Matches
215 Jeff Baca 12 22- 17 - 39 Matches
285 Pat Thomas 11 12- 13 - 25 Matches
Class 4A
Anderson County
Weight Name Year Record
135 Izaak Winter 12 40- 5 - 45 Matches
140 Brandon Hopkins 12 40- 8 - 48 Matches
Baldwin High School
Weight Name Year Record
112 Alan Callahan 11 43- 4 - 47 Matches
119 Nick Rockhold 12 31- 11 - 42 Matches
130 Kevin Callahan 12 38- 6 - 44 Matches
171 Gabe Mason 12 39- 12 - 51 Matches
215 Michael Barnes 12 25- 21 - 46 Matches
285 Jake Enick 12 25- 24 - 49 Matches
Eudora High School
Weight Name Year Record
140 Travis Clarke 12 35- 13 - 48 Matches
160 Jake Love 12 30- 14 - 44 Matches
171 Chase Rust 12 23- 19 - 42 Matches
189 Evan Meyers 12 32- 12 - 44 Matches
Vince,
I like duel tournaments as well, and I think the ideas I have read here for prospective meets have great merit. I would suggest, however, that our meets have gotten somewhat long for maintaining the attention of the normal fan. Duel tournaments can be as lengthy as ordinary bracketed tournaments. Vince, I would also suggest that you and I are not normal fans.
In Kansas where we use a point system. Coaches use the system to get as many matches as possible for their wrestlers and multi duel tournaments give that opportunity, but those meets take time for fans to attend, time that some do not have or simply wish not to give. Yet some high school schedules have nothing but multi-team events on their calendar.
Coaches and athletic directors can use regular duels to spice up their season. They are a great way to highlite a rivalry or create one. They only last a short time and fans love them. I also suspect so do the wrestlers. Most coaches won't go to duels on their schedule exclusively, they still want wrestlers to get important mat time but fans who attend meets need consideration as well.
You did bring up another thought. A reason for coaches not using duels in their season is that they cannot fill weight classes, maybe we have to many weight classes. Weight classes are determined by National Federation of State High School Associations, so are not a function the KSHSAA. But the number of weight classes have changed throughout the years, eleven when I first started coaching, then twelve, and now fourteen. They have been and can be changed as different circumstances arrive.
Gary Ulmer
To Richard, Shane, excardinal, Gary and anyone else I forgot,
I appreciate all that good information and input since my last post on this topic earlier today to the questions I brought up.
Gary:
I do like watching a good dual. My family has been watching a lot of them on the Big Ten Sports Network the last few weeks and a couple of other channels. It is fun to watch a good close one. The atmosphere of the Kansas City Senior Metro Classic is exciting. It is wonderful to see so many of the wrestling community at one event.
Gary, I must admit that I do hesitate to invite friends and family members in town to my son's wrestling tournaments because I know they would not have the patience to wait during the long breaks between his matches. I used to be that way but I have grown an appreciation for wrestling and I love watching all the matches. I certainly appreciate watching a wrestling tournament now a lot more than I did in the early years of my son's wrestling. We just watched the Big Ten tournament finals this afternoon. Before my son started wrestling eleven years ago, I used to watch a lot of college basketball in the winter. Now I rarely watch a college basketball game. I can't get enough of college wrestling on TV.