Kansas Wrestling
Posted By: ROBERT M. GONZALES Rule Recommendation for 2008-09 - 02/28/08 03:00 PM
Need some help. I am working a recommendation from Roy Oeser of Maize HS. The plan would be to have two - 16 team class 6A regionals with the top 8 wrestlers advance to class 6A state. I also visited with coaches from the Mazie regional they seemed to be in favor of this recommendation. The problem is I need the hard copy recommendation for the KWCA meeting this saturday here in Manhattan. Roy did not have a hard copy. If someone has a copy please fax to 785-587-2155. Maybe Coach Hibler could email me or call 785-587-2100. Thank You from Coach Gonzales
Posted By: Coach Hibler Re: Rule Recommendation for 2008-09 - 02/28/08 04:14 PM
Coach

I will try to e-mail you this afternoon. If not I will call you. Tell me what you want in this hard copy and I will get it done.
Thanks to Coach Hibler, Coach Shelton, & Coach Parks for their quick efforts and help. I talked with Roy as he was preparing tests for next hour class. I have the hard copy and I will include with other recommendations for the KWCA executive board meeting this Saturday. RMG
Posted By: Ryan Jilka Re: Rule Recommendation for 2008-09 - 02/29/08 02:04 AM
 Originally Posted By: ROBERT M. GONZALES
Thanks to Coach Hibler, Coach Shelton, & Coach Parks for their quick efforts and help. I talked with Roy as he was preparing tests for next hour class. I have the hard copy and I will include with other recommendations for the KWCA executive board meeting this Saturday. RMG


Okay Gonzo, what are you up to? No way was Roy preparing to give a test! That would imply that he's been teaching. \:\) Seriously, I think this is good for wrestling in 5 & 6A. If there is anything I could do as an outsider, please let me know.
Posted By: Larry Wagner Re: Rule Recommendation for 2008-09 - 04/09/08 02:12 AM
What is the reasoning behind doing this?
Two 16 team regionals mean 8 qualifiers from each regional.
Won't that require a two day tournament to wrestle out to 8th place?
Posted By: Bronco Wrestler Re: Rule Recommendation for 2008-09 - 04/09/08 11:11 AM
Yes it will require a 2-day regional, 321A & 4A already have this format.
Posted By: Gary Ulmer Re: Rule Recommendation for 2008-09 - 04/09/08 12:38 PM
Bob or Roy,

Could you give us some advantages to this format?

Gary Ulmer
Posted By: Dream Re: Rule Recommendation for 2008-09 - 04/09/08 02:30 PM
Yes how would this work? I don't see enough teams to do this.
Posted By: Cokeley Re: Rule Recommendation for 2008-09 - 04/09/08 03:36 PM
It eliminates the possibility of a "weak" eight team regional. It is a step in the right direction but as a state we are so far behind we need to be taking a couple of steps not one. There is NO WAY we should be sending more than 50% of 5A and 6A wrestlers to state (I am saying more because we all know that there are many schools that do not have a full line up.) 5A and 6A need to be combined. That is the bottom line.
Posted By: maybeimamazed Re: Rule Recommendation for 2008-09 - 04/09/08 11:39 PM
I agree Will, 100 percent.
Posted By: smokeycabin Re: Rule Recommendation for 2008-09 - 04/10/08 12:22 AM
I am not advocating any particular format. But I guess if they (The state body KSHSAA) or Kansas Coaches Association whoever decide on a format - wouldn't they have to do that the same for 1A,2A,3A, and also for 4A. Because the same could be true in those cases one regional maybe stronger than the other and somebody gets left home. It happens all the time even in kids wrestling where one subdistrict has all the top 4 places at state and the kid who stayed home from a particular subdistrict could of placed 5th or 6th in state and never made it to districts. Just about any format they use someone will be left out of the mix.
Posted By: Gary Ulmer Re: Rule Recommendation for 2008-09 - 04/10/08 01:51 AM
Will and Maybe,

If we combined 5A and 6A, sixteen kids would get to participate in state instead of thirty-two. Six kids would get to mount the podium instead of twelve. How in the world does denying young people the opportunity to feel good about themselves make wrestling better?

I don't know that the 6A state sixth placer in each weight class is less of an athlete than the 4A state sixth placer in those same weight classes. I am sure there are statistics that can make that argument, just as someone surely can make the same claim the other way. Even if it is true, SO WHAT?

How can wrestling in Kansas possibly be harmed in a system that allows more kids to stand in the sunshine?

Now, I would like to get back to my question to Bob and Roy. What are the advantages of two 16 man regionals advancing 8 to state for 6A?

Gary Ulmer

Posted By: maybeimamazed Re: Rule Recommendation for 2008-09 - 04/10/08 01:16 PM
Gary:

Don't get me wrong; I agree that it would be unfortunate to cut out an entire class and keep 16 kids from the State tournament. However, State should mean something more that having half of the kids in one class qualify for State. In 4A it's roughly a quarter and in 3-2-1A it's even less.

Maybe what we need to look at instead of combining classes is perhaps realigning them. Here is a modest proposal:

If I did that math right (which is always up for grabs), 211 schools entered Regionals this year (32 each in 6A & 5A, 62 in 48 and 85 in 3-2-1A). What if for wrestling we scrapped the current KSHSAA classes and went with something like this:
Class I: Top 48 schools in enrollment
Class II: The next 48 schools
Class III: The next 48 schools
Class IV: The remaining 67

The top three classes would all have two-day, 12-team Regionals with the top four going to State. The other class would have two-day Regionals as well.

As more schools add wrestling, they would simply go into the pile wherever they fall in enrollment, and schools will move in classes based on that. The same number of kids would still qualify for State, but instead of half of the kids making it in two class and a quarter or fifth in others, the balance would be much better.

Like I said, it was just a thought, but if might be a fair compromise.
Posted By: Gary Ulmer Re: Rule Recommendation for 2008-09 - 04/10/08 02:29 PM
Maybe,

16 kids in 6A in each weight class represent the 32 largest schools in Kansas who represent thousands of enrolled students. In 5A it takes more schools to create the same enrolled student base, 4A more schools yet, and a bunch in 3A.

In your proposal the next 16 largest schools are added to the already existing 6A schools to make class I. Now how many more thousand students will be represented by just 16 kids.

Then of course the following Class II, III, and IV in your proposal would have 16 kids per weight class in their state tournaments representing much smaller numbers in student enrollment instead of nearly equal numbers as it is now.

Gary Ulmer
Posted By: maybeimamazed Re: Rule Recommendation for 2008-09 - 04/10/08 02:54 PM
Valid point Gary, but we need to make sure we're comparing apples to apples here.

If a given 6A school has 25 kids out for wrestling and a 4A has 25 kids out, what's the difference? Granted, the 6As and 5As have bigger talents pools available, but it's not the talent pool that drives the bus, it's the talent itself.

In many ways, this argument is one of what you yourself are most used to doing. For 6A schools, you know that in a full bracket at Regionals, two wins and you're in. In a full bracket in 4A or 3-2-1A, you need four or more wins over two days to get there. There should be a better balance there and my plan would create that balance, would level the playing field and would still allow for exactly the same number of kids to qualify for State as now do.

Again, you make a valid point Gary; mine is just one possible alternative.
Posted By: Gary Ulmer Re: Rule Recommendation for 2008-09 - 04/10/08 04:06 PM
Maybe,

So are you saying that 4A and 3-2-1A wrestlers are more talented than 5A and 6A wrestlers, and are driving the bus?

Gary Ulmer
Posted By: maybeimamazed Re: Rule Recommendation for 2008-09 - 04/10/08 04:37 PM
No Gary, that's not what I am saying. This is not the old argument about the classes about who is best -- I hope this isn't sinking to that level.

As I said, this is simply one idea, and it is vastly less drastic that combining 6A and 5A. But being realistic, Missouri has four classes for wrestling and this is basically the same system number-wise as theirs. Iowa has well over 300 wrestling schools and only has three classes; its biggest class is 64 schools, and anytime someone brings up going to four classes, they're treated like heretics!

This isn't an attack on 6A or 5A or anything like that. There is a proposal on the table and I merely made another suggestion; no more or less out there of a suggestion than any other.

And, to be honest, if we're going to leave the classes the way they are, then going to a two-Regional, eight-qualifier system ONLY for 6A and 5A is a good idea that I would fully support.
Posted By: Husker Fan Re: Rule Recommendation for 2008-09 - 04/10/08 05:15 PM
 Originally Posted By: Gary Ulmer
Maybe,

16 kids in 6A in each weight class represent the 32 largest schools in Kansas who represent thousands of enrolled students. In 5A it takes more schools to create the same enrolled student base, 4A more schools yet, and a bunch in 3A.

In your proposal the next 16 largest schools are added to the already existing 6A schools to make class I. Now how many more thousand students will be represented by just 16 kids.

Then of course the following Class II, III, and IV in your proposal would have 16 kids per weight class in their state tournaments representing much smaller numbers in student enrollment instead of nearly equal numbers as it is now.

Gary Ulmer


I agree with you, Gary. I am sure this is the basis of why the class structure is divided the way it is now.

Also, the two of years I would put 5A up against any of the classes in overall quality. I think 5A would have done real well in a post season tournament with just the state placers competing the last two years. I don't know if it is always that way but I think that some of the top wrestlers and teams in Kansas have been in 5A the last two years.

I am not as familiar with 6A but I also know they too had some of the top teams and wrestlers the last two years.
Posted By: Gary Ulmer Re: Rule Recommendation for 2008-09 - 04/10/08 06:31 PM
 Originally Posted By: Cokeley
It eliminates the possibility of a "weak" eight team regional. It is a step in the right direction but as a state we are so far behind we need to be taking a couple of steps not one. There is NO WAY we should be sending more than 50% of 5A and 6A wrestlers to state (I am saying more because we all know that there are many schools that do not have a full line up.) 5A and 6A need to be combined. That is the bottom line.
 Originally Posted By: maybeimamazed
I agree Will, 100 percent.


Maybe,

You have already allowed it to sink.

Husker,

You are right. You have to overlook a lot of 5A and 6A success to make such observations.

Gary Ulmer
Posted By: smokeycabin Re: Rule Recommendation for 2008-09 - 04/10/08 07:08 PM

That is a pretty good idea!!!

If I did that math right (which is always up for grabs), 211 schools entered Regionals this year (32 each in 6A & 5A, 62 in 48 and 85 in 3-2-1A). What if for wrestling we scrapped the current KSHSAA classes and went with something like this:
Class I: Top 48 schools in enrollment
Class II: The next 48 schools
Class III: The next 48 schools
Class IV: The remaining 67

The top three classes would all have two-day, 12-team Regionals with the top four going to State. The other class would have two-day Regionals as well.
Posted By: Gary Ulmer Re: Rule Recommendation for 2008-09 - 04/10/08 07:23 PM
Maybe,

Did you ever get the feeling that you and I took off on a tangent with this thread?

Bob and Roy,

Would you please give me some advantages to having in 6A two regionals of 16 teams taking the top 8 to state?

Gary Ulmer
Posted By: maybeimamazed Re: Rule Recommendation for 2008-09 - 04/10/08 07:28 PM
Gary,

Yes, I do....oh well, it's the nature of the Forum I suppose!
Posted By: S McFee Re: Rule Recommendation for 2008-09 - 04/10/08 08:52 PM
Just for some additional clarity;

California has one state tourney, encompassing all classes.

Pennsylvania, with 500 schools wrestling, has 2 tournament classes.

Ohio, with 529 schools wrestling, has 3 tournament classes.

Kansas, with 211 schools, has 4 tournament classes.

Normally, when talking wrestling, CA, PA, and OH are mentioned as the national powers. I understand the benefit of having more kids feel good at the end, and agree to a point. Having 1/2 the kids eligible for state is beyond that point.

That seems like something basketball would do!
Posted By: sportsfan02 Re: Rule Recommendation for 2008-09 - 04/10/08 09:01 PM
 Originally Posted By: Gary Ulmer
Bob and Roy,

Would you please give me some advantages to having in 6A two regionals of 16 teams taking the top 8 to state?

Gary Ulmer

I know this question wasn't addressed to me but I will throw out the first reason. It provides opportunity to have all classes combined at one venue at some point in the future. I know I will get blasted by the 3-2-1A people but it would allow that to possibly happen.
Posted By: Bronco Wrestler Re: Rule Recommendation for 2008-09 - 04/10/08 10:40 PM
How many times do we have to go over this?

321A will NEVER leave Hays, the coaches will not allow it.
Posted By: maybeimamazed Re: Rule Recommendation for 2008-09 - 04/10/08 10:52 PM
I'm not sure what the original question has to do with moving the 3-2-1As. The way I read it was that there is a proposal to switch the 6A and 5A Regional format. As Alex said, that isn't happening.
Posted By: Gary Ulmer Re: Rule Recommendation for 2008-09 - 04/10/08 11:19 PM
Everybody,

I am sorry! Bob Gonzales entered a request to someone who might have hardcopy of a proposal written by Roy Oeser changing the format of 6A regionals. I was interested in the advantages of that format over the current one.

It seemed from there everyone including myself had their own axes to grind on subjects that were not necessarily related to Bob's request or my question. Neither had anything to do with placing all state classifications into one building, so Alex relax. 3-2-1A state is safe for one more year.

For asking the question of Bob and Roy I take full reposibility for the mayhem I created. I think I will email them.

This is fun, ain't it?
Gary Ulmer
Posted By: maybeimamazed Re: Rule Recommendation for 2008-09 - 04/11/08 01:07 AM
As do I Gary!

And yes, ain't it?
Posted By: nastyway Re: Rule Recommendation for 2008-09 - 04/11/08 01:13 AM
ai
Posted By: Coach Buck Re: Rule Recommendation for 2008-09 - 04/11/08 12:35 PM
The idea of advancing 8 wrestlers from two 16 team regionals for 5A and 6A has many positives.

1. This should help eliminate the possibility of having the 2 best wrestlers in a weight class meeting in the finals. If the 2 best are in the same regional they should be 1 and 2 and seperated at state. if they are both champions in their regional they will be seperated.

2. This will help get better qualified wrestlers to state. Many times 1 regional will have 5 or more great wrestlers in it and other regionals will not have as many. By combining 2 regionals and taking 8, the 5th best wrestler from a regional has a chance to place in the top 8 and therefore qualifier for state and possibly place at state.

3. This should save the state money by using less referees the week of regionals.

Teams may have more travel expense do to the fact that they may travel farther and since it would become a 2 day tournament many teams would have to stay over night. But this is a small price to pay for the benifits.
Posted By: maybeimamazed Re: Rule Recommendation for 2008-09 - 04/11/08 01:17 PM
I think this sounds like a great proposal for 6A and 5A. It really would eliminate alot of the discussion about "weak" regionals.

And at the sake of getting off topic again, what's the latest on the 4As moving back to Wichita when the new arena opens? (Sorry Gary, we were getting back on topic too much--LOL).
Posted By: Nedly Re: Rule Recommendation for 2008-09 - 04/11/08 02:18 PM
Maybe,

4A loves Salina.
Posted By: maybeimamazed Re: Rule Recommendation for 2008-09 - 04/11/08 03:48 PM
Works for me Nedly. I've always loved being the only game in town. Give me a call when you get a chance.
Hello I should have replied sooner, but I am working on rule legislation. I spent Wednesday in Topeka at KSHSAA working with the committee on weight management. Mr. Bowden will release the information to the Membership schools in due time. One thing I can say is 321A will be in Hays as long as Fort Hays State University (host school)and the 321A membership schools want the state tournament. The 4A Membership schools/coaches lobbied for the move to Salina. It has proved to be very succesful for 4A schools. For 2008-2009 Mr. Bowden is working with the Kansas Colesium leadership and 6A & 5A will be back in Wichita.
The past two days (Thursday/Friday) the KSHSAA support staff has been meeting with various organization on rules recommendations for possible change. This afternoon at 4pm. the KSHSAA Board of Directors will have our hearings and discussion session. I have been a member of the BOD for the past two years and I am up for nomination for another two year tonight. To my knowledge I am the only current wrestling coach on this 82 member board. I am pleased to say we have Curtis Simons of Hartford HS on this BOD. The topic that has been discussed on the previous two pages was brought to my attention at the 6A state tournament by Coach Roy Oeser. It has merit and I have discussed with coaches and administrators. The problem we have is that this proposal was submitted past the KWCA deadline and the KWCA membership did not get to discuss and vote on this issue. As a result this issue will be submitted to the KWCA rank and file membership next school year. I always look forward to working for our sport of wrestling. Leaving for Topeka and I will try and log back on Saturday. If you have questions. RMG
Posted By: Cokeley Re: Rule Recommendation for 2008-09 - 04/13/08 04:27 PM
What about how the parents feel? The parents pay for the coaches so their opinions should be weighed in. Oklahoma, Iowa, Colorado, Nebraska, and Missouri ALL host ALL of their state tournaments in one location. It makes a great event. Splintering the wrestling fan base and wrestling talent across the state HARMS the sport! The coaches in 4A need to understand this. College coaches WILL NOT send scouts to four locations. We are robbing those who wish to have beyond high school opportunities as well as the parents who have watched many of these kids wrestle since they were eight years old.

Gary Ulmer can you provide good paying jobs for everyone? I don't think so! You don't just give kids a trip to state so they feel good! That does not prepare them for life. State should be something special as these are young men who need to face the harsh reality that you DON'T always get what you want. You have to work and commit yourself. Your arguement about the many, many students at 5A and 6A schools is ridiculous! The 5A and 6A schools can't fill their wrestling rooms! They offer far more other sporting and extra curricular programs than their 4A and 321A counterparts.

Our coaches need to get outside of the state and see what is going on out there! I went to the USA Folkstyle Nationals two weeks ago where there were 30 plus Iowa high school coaches in the corners for their kids. There were ZERO Kansas coaches! What does it take to wake up the dinosaurs on the KSHSAA board?
Posted By: Cokeley Re: Rule Recommendation for 2008-09 - 04/13/08 04:29 PM
Nedly,

4A coaches love Salina. ALL wrestling PARENTS want to see ONE state site.
Posted By: maybeimamazed Re: Rule Recommendation for 2008-09 - 04/13/08 04:53 PM
 Originally Posted By: Cokeley
Our coaches need to get outside of the state and see what is going on out there! I went to the USA Folkstyle Nationals two weeks ago where there were 30 plus Iowa high school coaches in the corners for their kids. There were ZERO Kansas coaches! What does it take to wake up the dinosaurs on the KSHSAA board?


Will if that is the case, that 30-plus Iowa high school coaches were in the corners for their kids at Nationals, then they were doing so in violation of the following rule (taken directly from Iowa High School Athletic Association handbook):

COACH-ATHLETE CONTACT (“Camps & Clinics Rule”) & OPEN GYM
281-36.15(6) Summer camps and clinics and coaching contacts out of season.
a. School personnel, whether employed or volunteers, of a member or associate member school shall not coach that school’s student athletes during the school year in a sport for which the school personnel are currently under contract or are
volunteers, outside the period from the official first day of practice through the finals of tournament play. Nor shall volunteer or compensated coaching personnel require students to participate in any activities outside the season of that coach’s sport as a condition or participation in the coach’s sport during its seaso
n.

If what you saying is accurate, I'm sure the IHSAA and the administrators of those schools would be very interested in who they were. This rule is taken extremely seriously in Iowa.
Posted By: sportsfan02 Re: Rule Recommendation for 2008-09 - 04/13/08 06:55 PM
 Originally Posted By: maybeimamazed
If what you saying is accurate, I'm sure the IHSAA and the administrators of those schools would be very interested in who they were.

Nobody has ever accused him of being accurate, please don't saddle him with that responsibility now.
Posted By: Cokeley Re: Rule Recommendation for 2008-09 - 04/13/08 09:55 PM
The two coaches I spoke with are both head coaches of prominent high school program. I know them both VERY WELL. They were in the chair opposite of me in matches against Kansas kids. I cannot speak about the other coaches. I know that both of these coaches have coached dual teams outside of the HS season for middle school events. I know many of these coaches are very involved with their youth programs as well as Freestyle and Greco. Could be like Missouri, they coach and have a gentleman's agreement not to talk about it. The rule is ridiculously stupid, no matter what state we are talking about, and only protects the coaches who are not passionate enough to involve themselves outside of the season in which they are required to coach. These are the coaches who support this rule so they don't have to worry about being passed up. The rule pushes down the top so the bottom can stay where it is.

Another comment from these coaches was that they wrestle nearly fifty matches a season and might get 5 to 10 easy matches. That is the polar opposite of Kansas. Most of our schools wrestle about 40 matches and get 5 to 10 good matches.

The bottom line is the 70 plus members of the KSHSAA board feel everything if fine and there is no reason to change anything. The guy who monitors wrestling doesn't appear to even like the sport. Another year, 25% of an athlete's eligibility, will pass by and our wrestlers will not get to travel to the elite tournaments in the east, not get to wrestle the best in our state, not get coached by their coach, not be able to create good practice situations, not be able to attend CK Kickoff, etc. It is a darn shame!
Posted By: maybeimamazed Re: Rule Recommendation for 2008-09 - 04/13/08 10:19 PM
My question Will is whether or not they were coaching their own high school kids or lower level. If it's lower level, it's OK, or once school is out it's OK to coach the high school kids. But off-season during the school year is a no-no.
Posted By: Cokeley Re: Rule Recommendation for 2008-09 - 04/13/08 11:24 PM
They were coaching HS wrestlers from their school. FACT

Stupid rule. There is nothing positive about such a restriction.
Posted By: GregMann Re: Rule Recommendation for 2008-09 - 04/14/08 02:52 AM
"Another comment from these (Iowa) coaches was that they wrestle nearly fifty matches a season . . . "
Kansas wrestlers can get nearly 40 matches per season if weather does not interfere. What is the magic number of matches that should be wrestled in a season; or is it that whatever number Kansas wrestles are too few?


". . .and might get 5 to 10 easy matches."
No doubt the Iowa coaches were totally unbiased in their opinion. (sarcasm)

It reads as though you hold the rule-breaking Iowa coaches in high regard. These are coaches who were blatantly breaking their state's coach-athlete rules. It does make one wonder what other rules they would be prone to not follow if it/they got in the way of what they wanted to do. Maybe Iowa is the wrestling nirvana for which you have been searching; sounds as though it may have a "don't need no stinkin' rules" mentality.

Actually, I know of the Iowa Activities Association administrator for wrestling, having been in some meetings with him. He is a good and decent man who would be distressed, to find out that Iowa high school coaches were violating their Association rules.

The "it was a stupid rule anyway" defense has not won many, if any, legal disputes.

Greg Mann
Norton
Posted By: Cokeley Re: Rule Recommendation for 2008-09 - 04/14/08 04:46 AM
No law here Greg, no one is going to jail or getting fined, they are just going to be better wrestling coaches, it is just a STUPID RULE. It is time to pony up some cash, get some legal help and dismiss the dinosaurs such as yourself. You all have forgotten to pay attention to the hands that feed you. You do realize you get paid by tax dollars?? It is time for wrestling and other sports to have their own tea party. The KSHSAA is unfair taxation without representation! How many athletes have parents on the board? How many business people are on this board? How do you get on the board?

If you think it is a good rule then get behind it with some fact based support for this restriction on freedom to improve. It isn't just about wrestling it most likely goes down to the root of the education system. In Kansas we have too many out in your part of the state who won't let go of the inefficient setup which places a strain on education funds. I am talking about much need consolidation as well as other changes that won't happen as long as we have closed minded people such as yourself governing potential improvements. The 321A schools should NOT have as much say in the rules and spending as the larger schools. In attempt to keep things even or level you are pulling down our whole state. Please just give me some reason why coaches shouldn't be allowed to coach athletes outside of the season? Just try! Give me something to argue...
Posted By: On_the_Mat Re: Rule Recommendation for 2008-09 - 04/14/08 06:06 AM
Like it or not, Mr. Cokely is willing to speak his mind and undoubtedly is one of the most adament advocates for positive change to benefit KS Wrestling. I have to concur with him as far as what it will take to take Kansas to that most elite level we can aspire to.

No, it may not be for all, but I would compare it (KSHSAA Guidelines) to the No Child Left Behind. Why in the world should we be advocating more for our bottom feeders and keep wrestling down. It takes that extra work to attain the results of a champion and Mr Cokely I commend you for championing this cause and sticking your neck out.

Wrestling is a sport which pits man vs man and starts on a level playing field unlike size, socio-economic politics, popularity etc that can determine playing time etc in numerous other sports. But what is great is that by being willing to put in that extra work and having adults such as Will go to battle for you to get you some of those extra work such as helping to co-ordinate the Kansas Middle School Nationals and opening up his barn to elite level teaching instructors and voicing loudly what changes he feels will move us forward is of great benefit if folks will get on board as there is strength in numbers and a fight he should not have to endure alone.

Don't get me wrong as I realize that others feel likewise and serve on commitees, brainstorm etc for those changes but playing nice and political will only get you so far and sometimes a strong voice and leadership is necessary. I know the adage you can get more flies with honey but hey lets all be honest we have played "Mr. Nice" and sit idly by long enough and let others dictate/limit capabilities of KS Wrestling, who many of have no genuine connection or even background in this sport yet accept that they know what is best.

I feel that ALL participants regardless of individual success benefit from their individual association with this sport but it is necessary to be fair to those with desire to become ALL they can be to do right by them and this would include many of the proposals Mr. Cokely has voiced.

I will be honest in telling you that for instance it is very hard for someone such as my son whom is fair talent to keep up with those who go to National Tourneys such as Reno or Tulsa, attend Purler, Team Central or Akin Wrestling Academy, Go to Summer Camps such as Granby, Mizzou, Chertow, Oklahoma, Iowa or OSU and do wrestling year round in other styles such as Greco and Free-Style. It is then up to me to be resourceful whether buying cheap videos online, seek out less expensive camps, use the internet for resources etc, take advantage of the pre-National Hays Camp that USAW-KS has helped fund to offset cost, seek out fund-raising opportunities to aid him in at least keeping up with the learning curve if he so desires.

But Nevertheless I strongly feel if one has the ability to be a champion at the highest level possible we as a Kansas Wrestling Community owe it to those young men who put in the blood, sweat and tears, and time and money.
Posted By: sportsfan02 Re: Rule Recommendation for 2008-09 - 04/14/08 09:32 AM
Can you give us some facts that support the idea that Kansas is either standing still or falling behind other states due to KSHSAA? To date, Mr. Cokely has either been either unwilling or unable to support his theories with ANY proof. Pehaps you can do so for him?
Posted By: Cokeley Re: Rule Recommendation for 2008-09 - 04/14/08 11:38 AM
Colorado, Oklahoma, Iowa, Nebraska, and Missouri, all close neighbors to Kansas host a single site state wrestling tournament making it possible for all of the members of their respective wrestling communities to gather in one place each year. This makes it easier for college coaches to attend to scout potential scholarship candidates. Oklahoma has a very strong jr. high program but permits its wrestlers to continue wrestling in independent, open events during the season. Kansans are equal to the Oklahomans in talent as youths but the Okies pass us by when they get to middle school and high school because their coaches work more with their kids, they are allowed to wrestle outside of school sanctioned events, and they pit the best against the best. Their association permits more matches as well.

I know of one wrester who had to skip the first week of Kansas practice so he could wrestle in the CK Kickoff, an event that ALL age elgible Kansans should attend. His HS coach was chastised by others for "allowing" such to happen instead of embracing the tactic so those kids would get some competition they would NEVER see in a Kansas hosted event, especially at the JV or Freshman level.

Indiana, Ohio, Wisconsin, Missouri, Texas and many other state's governing bodies have rules that permit wrestlers to get 50 or more matches. The KSHSAA rules could permit that many if there were events to attend inside of the 500 mile travel restriction and your school wrestled no individual dual events but to date the most matches wrestled in a career by a Kansas wrestler has been less than 175. Angel Escebedo had nearly 250 in his HS career! Are you going to tell me that more mat time won't make our wrestler's better? Are you going to tell me that traveling to the Beast of the East or the Ironman won't make our wrestlers better?

I attend tournaments all over the country every weekend. I see what is on the mat and I KNOW that we are falling behind and I know that we COULD be better if allowed to do so. The ONLY significant change to HS wrestling by KSHSAA since I was in HS is to water down state at the 5A and 6A level and place six kids. You tell me how that makes us better? In the guide for the Metro Classic they list the all time win record for each school who has had wrestlers compete against those from Missouri. The Shawnee Mission schools have just two wins against 13 losses. Are you going to tell me they don't need to start doing something different to improve and catch up to Missouri?
Posted By: GregMann Re: Rule Recommendation for 2008-09 - 04/14/08 11:52 AM
The changes desired by the "too much is a good thing" group are coming, (though not fast enough for some).

Many of us "dinosaurs" will be exiting the scene in the next few years as we retire. No doubt this will usher in a new day in Kansas wrestling where the sun will shine brighter and the birds will sing more energetically; where every wrestling match in every scheduled competition will be of state championship caliber and every wrestler in Kansas will be guaranteed at least 50 matches per season with no travel restrictions whatsoever and coaches will be allowed, nay expected, to coach their athletes 24x7 year round. What about academics and the health of the athletes? These will become secondary concerns.

Beware of that for which you wish, as you may get it!

I realize that tax payers pay my salary--Mr. Cokeley misses no opportunity to remind any and all of this fact. As a wise man once told me, when you point your finger at someone, there are three pointing back--Mr. Cokeley no doubt is the beneficiary of some tax-payer supported benefits.

FYI, I am not on "the board" to which Mr. Cokeley refers. I DO serve on a special committee formed by the KSHSAA to address concerns regarding weight loss. The membership of this committee is composed of doctors, athletic trainers, coaches, AD's and school administrators (principals and supts). How did I get selected? Just lucky, I guess.

Finally, Those who may believe that disputes over local school and state athletic association rules do not lead to legal disputes (and proposals in the state legislature) do not pay attention to the news.

Posted By: Cokeley Re: Rule Recommendation for 2008-09 - 04/14/08 02:44 PM
Greg,

You are correct, the changes are not coming along fast enough. The glaciers melt faster than any changes I have seen happen in the realm of the KSHSAA. What changes were approved during last Friday's meeting? I still believe the board is just a puppet operated by the great Maestro Musselman and his henchman Bowden. Even the insiders will tell you so.

What are the educational and health concerns you have when it comes to permiting coaches to teach athletes outside of the season? Are the boys from Kansas not tough enough and/or smart enough to wrestle as many matches as wrestlers from Texas? No one is demanding that coaches do so but if a coach would like to then they should be able to. Freedom to chose is all we are talking about here! KSHSAA is too controlling and the regulations are bordering on asinine. I know exactly what I am wishing for and I am willing to pay to get it. I want a level playing field with other states and I am not alone. I wish for freedom because that is what the country was founded for. I want representation for my tax dollars. I don't want guys like you making decisions on how my money is spent. I want wrestling advocates to make decisions for wrestling not basketball and football people.

I am aware of the finger pointing theory. I DO NOT receive my compensation directly from an entity which is totally tax supported like yours. EVERYONE receives some benefit or compensation from tax dollars if you want to dig deep enough. You have no fiscal accountability in other words your job only requires you to spend money you do not have to make any and you probably don't even care where it comes from as long as you get your share.

I am aware and hoping that this does lead to a legal dispute like the swimming issue did. It might be the only way to get something productive accomplished before my son kids get to high school.
Posted By: J. Dale Re: Rule Recommendation for 2008-09 - 04/14/08 03:03 PM
If they are retiring, do any of them need help packing?
I have a truck that we could use.
Posted By: maybeimamazed Re: Rule Recommendation for 2008-09 - 04/14/08 06:45 PM
Will:

I'm just asking; I know what Kansas's rules are and I know Iowa's, but could you provide us with a list of the states that allow what you would like to see done as well as a reference as to where we could see their rules so that maybe there'd be a more definitive reference point?

You've brought up other states, to the point of saying the Iowa and Missouri coaches obviously violate their own "stupid" rules, but I just wondered which states — by actual rule — do it your way. Maybe then we'd have an actual precedent to show people to support the changes you'd like to see. You've brought up an unified State tournament, travel restrictions and whatnot; I guess what I'm asking is about the coaching contact rules and in-season outside competition rules. Like I said, I know Kansas and Iowa rules, but I'm not familiar with other states. I thought perhaps you've researched this and could share that.

Just a suggestion...
Posted By: windjammer Re: Rule Recommendation for 2008-09 - 04/14/08 07:48 PM
I don't know much about all the high school national tournaments. Is there some reason why NHSCA Nationals is not representative of where Kansas is compared to other states? I see Kansas did much better as a team than Iowa. In fact, we tied MO and beat NE, IA, CO, TX, OK, WI and IN. Are some states not really attending this tournament? I think maybe I heard that Oklahoma didn't really participate fully.

With regard to the Shawnee Mission Schools not faring well in the Metro Classic program, most of the Shawnee Mission Schools are not exactly wrestling powerhouses. Bishop Carroll is subject to the same KSHSAA rules, and I believe would fare better than 2-13.
Posted By: LancerLou Re: Rule Recommendation for 2008-09 - 04/14/08 08:40 PM
 Originally Posted By: windjammer
With regard to the Shawnee Mission Schools not faring well in the Metro Classic program, most of the Shawnee Mission Schools are not exactly wrestling powerhouses. Bishop Carroll is subject to the same KSHSAA rules, and I believe would fare better than 2-13.


I would like to point out that the Shawnee Mission East wrestling team took 4th place at 6a state. They have been building their program over the past 3-4 years with excellent results.
Posted By: windjammer Re: Rule Recommendation for 2008-09 - 04/14/08 08:52 PM
Hence me saying "most of the Shawnee Mission Schools".

Still, they are not yet a powerhouse. No offense, they have made great strides.
Posted By: Cokeley Re: Rule Recommendation for 2008-09 - 04/14/08 11:02 PM
6A is very, very tough at the top but the drop off is significant afterwards. 4th place in 6A might not break you into the top 10 in 4A but the point is that Kansas really isn't competitive with other states. The Shawnee schools are some of the largest in the state but they have trouble filling a solid varsity line up.

Bishop Carroll is definitely an exception to the norm. They are basically a magnet wrestling school right now. They wrestle the best schedule and they have awesome assistants. Being a private school has its advantages! God Bless them for making the most of them.

The NHSCA or any post HS season tournament is a difficult way to measure up to other states. I don't think Iowa was very well represented at that tournament and neither was Ohio. In the post season you are just measuring your elite and dedicated against the other state's elite and dedicated. A better measuring stick is the regular season. Look at the results from the tournaments hosted by Kansas schools where out of state schools were invited. You will see a solid trend where out-of-state schools win or place high in these tournaments. The middle of Kansas is far behind the middle of the surrounding states.

I talked to some Iowa coaches today. They form magnet wrestling rooms after the season where multiple schools practice. Their wrestlers are then coached by another school's coach, wink, wink. They also merge rooms under a scrimmage rule after regionals which lets them have higher quality practice rooms.
Posted By: maybeimamazed Re: Rule Recommendation for 2008-09 - 04/14/08 11:18 PM
A-ha! Right answer Will! That's what I was hoping you were getting at.

Bizarre though it may be, in Iowa, during off-season inside-the-school-year wrestling, a coach can work with any high school wrestler except his own. I've had kids in rooms in that situation, in which we put together groups where we would have none of our own kids in our group. We were all teaching the same things, but staying within the rule. And, we did stay within the rules because there might be that one coach there that -- in a tight spot -- might screw the rest of us if the chance came.

The scrimmage rule you mentioned has been legal for as long as anyone can remember. Usually between Sectionals and Districts, four or five schools might get together and and their District qualifiers practice together a couple of nights -- assuming they aren't going to see each other at Districts. Because State starts on Wednesday, I don't know a lot of teams that practice together that week, but we always did between Sectionals and Districts. I was very surprised when I was in Kansas that we couldn't do that.

Most Iowa kids aren't that big on post-season tournaments. There's never been a lot of push for it. Most of them are getting ready for summer freestyle.
Posted By: Gary Ulmer Re: Rule Recommendation for 2008-09 - 04/14/08 11:53 PM
Has anyone seen Bob and Roy?

Gary Ulmer
Posted By: Cokeley Re: Rule Recommendation for 2008-09 - 04/15/08 12:51 AM
I was told today that Rick Almighty stated that NO PROPOSAL for the 5A and 6A regionals reached his desk. There were no proposals for change to wrestling at the KSHSAA BOD meeting last Friday. You might find this hard to believe, well anyway I did, if the KWCA doesn't have near consensus (95% support) for a change it will NEVER be presented to the BOD. Last time I checked majority ruled! So, if 6% of our coaches don't want to change anything then nothing will change. My source also stated that only one or two changes can be handled by the KSHSAA as too much change, too fast is not possible. I call that progress retardation! All my boys will be fathers before any meaningful changes will be implemented unless we find a catalyst for change.
Posted By: Kale Mann Re: Rule Recommendation for 2008-09 - 04/15/08 01:29 AM
I know my dad is perfectly capable of defending himself, but it really bothers me to have anyone question his dedication to education or wrestling. You would be very hard pressed to find any superintendent in the state that is as supportive of wrestling as he is. He volunteers his time (meaning does not get any additional pay) for multiple wrestling related issues, the most recent being the weight loss plan, which thank god has avoided the cumbersome descent plan adopted by the National Federation. Not to mention he has been an administrator either as AD or Supt at Norton for close to 20 years. The support that program receives is second to none. In addition, he was a voice in the fight to get the coach contact rule liberalized in the late 90’s. When I 1st started high school, coaches were not allowed to have sport specific contact outside of the season- not even in the summer. Fortunately that rule has been changed, and we have dinosaurs like my dad to thank for that.

 Originally Posted By: Cokeley

I am aware of the finger pointing theory. I DO NOT receive my compensation directly from an entity which is totally tax supported like yours. EVERYONE receives some benefit or compensation from tax dollars if you want to dig deep enough. You have no fiscal accountability in other words your job only requires you to spend money you do not have to make any and you probably don't even care where it comes from as long as you get your share.


How exactly would you propose for anyone in the PUBLIC educational system to make money? Should we charge students to attend school, that would defeat the purpose of the very nature of Public education? Should we have our students produce something that has a value on the open market? His job does require him to spend money, all of it coming in some way from tax dollars- but where else should it come from. And to say there is no accountability is laughable. The amount of oversight and auditing is tremendous. Couple that with the fact that most years the budget must be created (by law) prior to the state deciding how much money to give the schools, that makes it very difficult. As an educator myself, I don't care where the money comes from, that is someone else's concern. All I am concerned about is having enough to provde adequate learning opportunities to my students and athletes. I know that too often I am digging into my pockets to buy supplies for class and I teach in Johnson County. I am sure it is worse other places.

 Originally Posted By: Cokeley

It isn't just about wrestling it most likely goes down to the root of the education system. In Kansas we have too many out in your part of the state who won't let go of the inefficient setup which places a strain on education funds. I am talking about much need consolidation as well as other changes that won't happen as long as we have closed minded people such as yourself governing potential improvements. The 321A schools should NOT have as much say in the rules and spending as the larger schools. In attempt to keep things even or level you are pulling down our whole state.


Regarding your views above, it shocks me that you were once from Western Kansas. I agree that some consolidation does need to take place, but there is only a limited amount left to do. A few very small communities are holding on to their schools, but can you really blame them. Once the school goes, the town dies. The real problem is that many of the schools that should be consolidated are too far away from other schools. How long should a student need to ride a bus or drive to get to school. I know in some places students are on the bus approaching an hour each way. If these schools are consolidated any further, are we talking about setting up boarding schools in western Kansas? The real problem is the economics in that area of the state are not good. Farms are getting larger and more mechanized to maximize productivity, but that means a lower population. What is really needed is some initiative in Topeka to stimulate some growth in western Kansas (tax credits or something else to get businesses to set up shop out there), however the legislators in the two areas of the state that have enough votes to cancel anything like that (Kansas City area and the Wichita area) will not let it happen for fear that it will take their economic development away. The bottom line is the kids that live out west deserve a first rate education, just like those here in the east.

This is in no way an endorsement of current KSHSAA rules, rather it is a response to an unfounded personal attack on a fine educator, and in general an entire area that is very dear to me and which I feel some of the best people anywhere still call home. I am all for some changes, Will you and I have communicated about some of the hindrances that I have been fighting, but this thread deviated from that path.

PS: the reason my dad has not responded himself is that he is at a board meeting discussing how to replace many of the fine educators (aka dinosaurs) that are retiring. The problem is that not enough young people are getting into the profession. Any ideas why? Could it be the lack of pay, or the lack of respect? I will guarantee that respect is the bigger obstacle!
Posted By: Cokeley Re: Rule Recommendation for 2008-09 - 04/15/08 02:37 AM
I only wish I could take my $80,000 in property tax money and give it to the school where my son attends, then, Kale, you would not be receiving ANY of MY money like you are now. Your dad took the first shot so he should have been prepared for the counter attack. While on the topic of funds, you darn right the public schools should be accountable! It is not in the best interest of improvement to have a monopoly like the current public school system. I pay for public school and I have to pay for private as well. I chose to place my kids in private school because it is BETTER. I have to pay for my choice as I get NO tax credit for additional expenditure. The problem is that the current system has no accountability. People cannot move out of a district simply because they have a crummy principal or school board so they have to wait for the change if they cannot economically afford a different option. You don't buy inferior goods when you have an option so why should I have to pay for an inferior edcuational and athlectic opportunity?

I am frustrated with the system your father supports. It was a totally founded attack at least as much founded as his on my post. Your father might be a great educator but he should not be such a control freak when it comes to athletics. If he believes that coaches should be allowed to coach then let them coach unrestricted. THERE IS NO HARM IN ALLOWING THIS TO HAPPEN! The rule is in place to protect the coaches who do not want to coach outside of the season. Back up the rules that I feel should be changed with some fact based support instead of just telling me to go away. The KSHSAA system is broken and is in need of change. I am going to do everything I can to make this happen. The real dinosaurs are Bowden and Musselman your dad just chose to jump on me so I just grouped him in there with them. Talk about a couple of guys with no accountability!

BTW it is most definitely a lack of pay more so than respect. Did your dad respect me? I don't really think so. Every time I post anti KSHSAA information he jumps on me. If Ryne wasn't asleep I would let him get on here and defend me too! He would really like to go to the Beast of East or Ironman. Give me one good reason why the travel restriction is in place?? Maybe you should read all of my posts before you jump on me. I just wonder, do you respect me?
Posted By: LancerLou Re: Rule Recommendation for 2008-09 - 04/15/08 02:53 AM
 Originally Posted By: Cokeley
6A is very, very tough at the top but the drop off is significant afterwards. 4th place in 6A might not break you into the top 10 in 4A but the point is that Kansas really isn't competitive with other states. The Shawnee schools are some of the largest in the state but they have trouble filling a solid varsity line up.


Sorry to interrupt the personal attacks, but in the 14 matches that SME wrestled against 4a #1 Clay Center & # 2 Andale, we split 7-7. If I include the top 12 4a schools (only because we had matches against #1,2,6,10,11 & 12) the split goes to 31 to 16 in favor of SME.
Posted By: Cokeley Re: Rule Recommendation for 2008-09 - 04/15/08 03:20 AM
I would defer the hypothetical state placing of SME in 4A to the Great Chief who hales from SME. How you fared in duals may not give you the answer you are looking for. I know that you had one wrestler who garnered BIG points for you in 6A and he most likely would not have been on the podium in 4A. JMO.

Chief, are you out there??
Posted By: LancerLou Re: Rule Recommendation for 2008-09 - 04/15/08 03:28 AM
These wins were all in tournaments, not duals. If we are going to compare individuals, I know one SME wrestler who had 2 wins over the 4a state champ and one win over the 4a runner-up.

Chief's team stats are the source of my results.
Posted By: Chief Renegade Re: Rule Recommendation for 2008-09 - 04/15/08 03:29 AM
Now you know that SME was the exception this year. The mighty Lancers would have done just fine in 4A. IMO, our 140, 189 and 215 would have made the finals with 2 titles.
Posted By: Cokeley Re: Rule Recommendation for 2008-09 - 04/15/08 03:37 AM
One last post and then I am done with this as I recognized long ago this forum will not help change the KSHSAA. If a wrestler asked you these questions how would you explain your answer (please do not say, "Because it is a rule!):

Dad, why can't my coach help me after state when I want to go to (insert name of tournament)?

Coach, why can't we go to the Beast of the East so I can wrestle the best wrestlers in the country?

Coach, why do have to take a weekend off, I want to wrestle every weekend and as many matches as possible?

Coach, why do we have to take a week off of practice and then have to make scratch weight for two more weeks?

Coach, why can't we get tape on wrestlers I might have to face at the state tournament?

Dad, why do I have to miss the first week of practice at school so I can wrestle in the Cliff Keen Kickoff?

Coach, Joe Blow doesn't have anyone to work out with in his room can he and I practice together so we can improve?

Dad/Coach, why are there four state champions at each weight? I never got to wrestle (insert names of other champions)?

If you have a tough time explaining it to a kid then it must not make much sense.
Posted By: Cokeley Re: Rule Recommendation for 2008-09 - 04/15/08 03:45 AM
Clay Center-Clay Center Comm., 151.00; Andale, 116.50; Colby, 112.00; Goodland, 74.50;
Abilene, 60.00; Andover-Central, 59.50; Chanute, 55.00; Altamont-Labette County, 54.00; LaCgyne-
Prairie View, 53.50; Baldwin, 50.00

These were the top 10 from 4A. I am not sure I agree with your 215 assessment as 4A was LOADED at that weight. 140, Joey would have been in the hunt. How about 285? I don't know your guy but the 4A guys were pretty decent. I would definitely give Matt the nod. I concede top 10 but probably not top 5.
Posted By: Bauerly Re: Rule Recommendation for 2008-09 - 04/15/08 03:50 AM
Actually, I know of the Iowa Activities Association administrator for wrestling, having been in some meetings with him. He is a good and decent man who would be distressed, to find out that Iowa high school coaches were violating their Association rules.

The "it was a stupid rule anyway" defense has not won many, if any, legal disputes.

Greg Mann
Norton
Top



You have got to be kidding, Iowa Coaches are not breaking any rules its just like it is stated they are working to improve the kids in the sport look at there web site it blows KS site out of the water what child made the Kansas High School Athletic web site they have to rely on the USA KIDS site really have you looked I have wake up Kansas you have to get some cheap looking results on the Kansas Kids site just to keep up with the High School State Tournament why don’t the combine the 5a and 6a it is really watered down 32 Schools in each class why not make them the top 64 then work there way on down the Iowa coaches are not breaking any rules Kansas High School does not even do a good job of promoting wresting at the High School level.

http://www.iahsaa.org/wrestling/index.html

Why does Iowa have such a nice web site real friendly and easy to use with real information? You folks from Kansas have to USE the USAW Kids site to get information and it is real good except that the KSHSAA should have there own for all the dollars that flow in there paying outrages salaries to Administrators and coaches get zip
Posted By: Gary Seibel Re: Rule Recommendation for 2008-09 - 04/15/08 11:54 AM
Has someone abducted Coach O and Coach Gonzo?

I would be interrested in allowing the best 16 kids in our watered down classes a chance to get to the state tournament.

I am also trying to find a way to FEASIBLY get into a better schedule since my guys only get 5-10 good matches a year. Clay Center, Bishop Carroll, Salina South, Newton TOC, Beloit Inv, Junction City tournaments aren't very deep and we don't get much challenge in our dual schudule with Hutch, Derby, Goddard and Maize.

I also would like to volunteer to coach year round for the same salary I receive right now because I love spending so much time with other people's children and away from my own. After I do all that, I really like seeing on message boards where I suck at the job I'm doing and how I should get off my lazy a** and travel around the country to see how Billy Bob is way better.

Lastly, why does every rule have to be ignored just because we don't like it? Since when do we want the people spending so much time around our young people to blatantly violate rules and then "wink wink" like it's a good thing? Change?

How about do the right thing ALWAYS just because it's the right thing to do? Very few of my wrestlers or football players will compete at the college or national level but they will ALL hopefully be good citizens and have families of their own. Hopefull they will pay their taxes and support the endeavors of other young people even when they don't have kids because someone else had the foresight to set our system up for everyone and because it's the right thing to do.
Posted By: maybeimamazed Re: Rule Recommendation for 2008-09 - 04/15/08 12:07 PM
Gary:

I think Coach O and Coach Gonzo hightailed it for the hills after this took off the direction it did.

As for the rest of your post — BRAVO!

And, I was disappointed to see that Will has made his last post without providing the documentation I invited him to provide about states that do things his way. It would have been interesting to see which ones do and how their rules read.
Posted By: GregMann Re: Rule Recommendation for 2008-09 - 04/15/08 12:26 PM
Painting thickly with a broad brush always leads to splatter.
Posted By: Gary Ulmer Re: Rule Recommendation for 2008-09 - 04/15/08 01:55 PM
Coach Seibel,

If any of your wrestlers or football players need jobs send them my way.

What I would like to ask Coach Gonzales or Coach Oeser is what are the advantages of changing the format of the 6A regionals to two 16 man tournaments with the top 8 going to state.

Gary Ulmer
Posted By: Coach Davies Re: Rule Recommendation for 2008-09 - 04/15/08 01:58 PM
--Coach, why can't we go to the Beast of the East so I can wrestle the best wrestlers in the country?--

I know I shouldn't even reply to any of this nonsense but...
Tell me what school would have enough money to take a Varsity Roster to this tournament? Do you think every kids' parent would be able front hundreds of dollars for this? Just because one parent can afford to send their kid any place in the country doesn't make it wrong that KSHSAA doesn't allow that kind of travel. I think most of the questions that were asked should say.
*Dad(to self), why can't my son's coach help me after state when I(meaning dad) want to go to (insert name of tournament)?

*Coach, why do I(meaning dad) have to take a weekend off, I (meaning dad) want to wrestle every weekend and as many matches as possible?

*Coach, why can't we(meaning dad) get tape on wrestlers I(meaning dad) might have to face at the state tournament?

*If you have a tough time explaining it to a kid(meaning dad) then it must not make much sense.
Posted By: Gary Seibel Re: Rule Recommendation for 2008-09 - 04/15/08 02:31 PM
By the way when I said:

"...I should get off my lazy a** and travel around the country to see how Billy Bob is way better."

I really don't need to travel around the country to see coaches better than I...I see them every weekend during the season. Hats off to coaches Ross, Means, Charbonnaeu, Hutchinson, Johnson, Garcia, Eschelman et al.
Posted By: Kale Mann Re: Rule Recommendation for 2008-09 - 04/15/08 08:53 PM
 Originally Posted By: Cokeley

I just wonder, do you respect me?


Will, I do respect you. I have seen 1st hand the work that you have put into helping youth wrestling in this part of the state. Just because I disagree with you on some things, does not mean that I don’t respect you.

 Originally Posted By: Cokeley

I only wish I could take my $80,000 in property tax money and give it to the school where my son attends, then, Kale, you would not be receiving ANY of MY money like you are now.


Actually I believe the majority of that money goes to the state, who then divides the money up based on the enrollment of each school, granting weight to certain students who require more to educate. There fore USD 232 does not receive a lot of that money because your children attends else where (a choice that you are free to make, and for which I pass no judgement- you should do what you feel is best for your children). The exception is for bond issues and also for the mill levy tax, which you may be referring your $80,000. If everyone could just put their money into the school they wanted to, that would lead to the catastrophic collapse of the educational system. The vast majority of students would still be stuck in the school in which they lived near, but those with the resources to go elsewhere would simply take their more substantial money and apply it to a much smaller portion of the kids. That would be very disastrous for the majority of kids in Kansas. Fortunately our system is set up to benefit all, not just those willing and able to pay for something else.

 Originally Posted By: Cokeley

Your father might be a great educator but he should not be such a control freak when it comes to athletics.


As far as I know, he has no say regarding any rule changes for the support, other than participating on a committee regarding the weight loss program. I too wish that the 2 pound growth allowance would be awarded after break, and I think is something the KWCA should continue to push for.

 Originally Posted By: Cokeley

If he believes that coaches should be allowed to coach then let them coach unrestricted. THERE IS NO HARM IN ALLOWING THIS TO HAPPEN! …

Back up the rules that I feel should be changed with some fact based support instead of just telling me to go away.


If this rule were to be changed so that wrestling coaches could have unrestricted access to athletes outside of season, that rule would most likely be changed for all sports. I for one do not want to see that happen. Imagine if you will that football coaches (even though I am a FB coach also, I know the rep that many FB coaches have which is why I am picking on them) could then coach their kids all year. This would lead to a situation that would not foster multi-sport athletes, and in my opinion the sport of wrestling would lose many- many fine wrestlers, because they would be forced to make a decision- and lets face it football for many is easier and a more glamorous sport. I just think there are a lot of consequences that would be negative for our sport’s participation.

 Originally Posted By: Cokeley

Give me one good reason why the travel restriction is in place?? Maybe you should read all of my posts before you jump on me.


As far as the travel restriction I feel someone else already addressed that, although I don’t think it is a valid argument to say not everyone could do it, so no one can do it. Some schools won’t allow any overnight stays during the season due to budget restrictions, but there aren’t rule to out law that for other schools. I think the biggest concern for KSHSAA is time away from school. Maybe the rule should be a limit on number of school days missed for competition instead of a mileage rule. That would be more difficult to enforce- but in my opinion would be a better way to address the core issue.

I also agree with Coach Seibel, that my main job is to prepare young people to be good citizens. Hopefully I can make a positive impact in that regard, working with other peoples children. I feel that adequate respect for that endeavor would do a lot to help recruit people into the profession.
Posted By: Coach Davies Re: Rule Recommendation for 2008-09 - 04/15/08 09:06 PM
After reading my own post I just want to say that I am not attacking anyone in any personal way because I do not know any of you personally. I just can't sit back and read about people talking about coaches as if we don't do much for our student/athletes. As someone said before, we want our athletes to be good people. Can you measure someones success and dedication to the sport by wins and losses, state championships, tournament championships....no, you really can't. Does the guy on my team that has won less than ten matches in 3 years not work as hard as the guy who has lost less than 10 in 3 years even if they both wrestle year-round? Does ability not have anything to do with it? Does a kid who plays 3 sports need to be driven away from the other 2 sports because his wrestling coach is allowed to coach him year-round now and in order to be successful he needs to not play other sports so he can be a state champion in wrestling? Kansas probably sends about 1-5% of their athletes to college to wrestle. Do you really think that would change if all of these rules got changed? I know some change is good but what do you really want from KSHSAA. Maybe we should just send the "good kids" to increase their 10 "quality" matches they get a year. There a bigger fish to fry when it comes to high school athletics. Ask guys like Troy Hodges and Randy Westfal what kinds of problems they dealt with on a day to day basis with most of the kids they coached. I guarantee the number one thing on their mind wasn't wins and losses. It was about making a positive difference in the lives of our youth and is that what were doing by bending rules and calling things "stupid".
Posted By: maybeimamazed Re: Rule Recommendation for 2008-09 - 04/15/08 09:51 PM
Zach:

I only wish we were all as articulate as you in this matter. You have in a few words truly summed up what it means to be a coach/educator. Keep up the good work!
Posted By: Vandeventer Re: Rule Recommendation for 2008-09 - 04/16/08 04:09 PM
1) Who else is going to help my kids if I can't? ($3.24 a gallon, how many of my kids can drive to Akin twice a week or go to rooms in KC, I don't have a stable of past studs who live in the community and will work with my kids)
2) Kids are not like they used to be, you tell a kid today he has to do something he doesn't want to do and his response is screw you. (parents and kids won't put up with coaches abusing/overdoing practice time)
3) KSHSAA is to restrictive. Why can't a basketball coach set up a league and run it so the kids who want to play basketball in the summer can stay in the community and play?? Why can't a football coach coach his own 7 on 7 team?? If I have kids that want to spend $65 and enter a national tournament and I am willing to take a personal day and drive them and coach them for 5 matches, why the hell not?
4) I could go on and on. Some of you speak about making good citizens. I know a ton of coaches who are great for their wrestlers. Those kids often times learn more about themselves and how to be a great person at a tournament or practice then they do anywhere else. Why drastically limit the amount of time they can spend with their coaches? If a coach is abusing the kids somehow, then fire him!! Don't punish those who would do the right thing because you are afraid that some would do the wrong thing.
Posted By: Cokeley Re: Rule Recommendation for 2008-09 - 04/16/08 05:10 PM
I am sorry to break from my statement but I have to post this:

Walter, you are the man!!!
Posted By: DDUB Re: Rule Recommendation for 2008-09 - 04/16/08 06:04 PM
I've been involved with this sport for almost 40 years. I mention that not as an award or curse, only as a reference. I've seen/been around or part of great wreslting people and programs and I've seen and been around some not so good people and programs. As I read through these posts it's appears to me that there is fact in a little bit of what everyone is saying.
Will makes some great points as many of the other posters do as well. I've been to many of the same tournaments Will talks about, I see the same coaches either in the corner or leaning on a nearby matside rail. Heck you could find them at our KS youth tournaments if you wanted to.
Will (as well as many other posters) is well aware that it is usually only through extra reps against tougher competition will an athlete of any sport get better over time. We were part of program where the HS coach opened the room on the first day of the season and closed the room on the last day and was not seen again until the opening of the next season. My son, who practically wrestles year round was left to fend for himself. We've had another coach who was as dedicated to coaching as any of his wrestlers were to wrestling. If they wanted to wrestle he would be there. Neither coach was married, both were teachers, outstanding men and relativley young, but with two polarized philosophies. I think Will's point is, for a son like mine and for coach who wants to coach, why not let them wrestle and coach to their hearts content? It would have made my life as a parent/husband/coach/financier/bus driver more simple.
I also recognize that many teams can not travel to those national tournaments but, that said, why restrict those who maybe can? Some of our best wrestling memories are from the various national team competitions we've been fortunate enough to participate in. It seems to me if a team can go to the "Beast of the East" or whatever then let them go! It may be one of the most memorable times that team or those kids will ever have. KS has a match limit today, if it falls within their match limits why does it matter where they wrestle the match? Finances will always be an issue that are raised, but I ask, how many car washes or bake sales have you been to/through for little league baseball or a cheerleading camp? They tend to find a way to make it work. It's not everyday/year they go but they do find a way.
I don't know if KS is behind or not as compared to our surrounding states. Although, I must admit is was a little surprised at what appeared to be low numbber of college wrestlers
Richard Salyer had on his list in another post. Maybe it's not low, I really don't have much context to compare.
I think that we as a wrestling community should consider a little give and take instead of what appears to be a "winner take all" approach. Everyone can win IF we want it to.

Dean Watson
Posted By: Confucius Re: Rule Recommendation for 2008-09 - 04/16/08 06:27 PM
Most of the changes proposed by Will Cokeley on this forum make since in and of their self... I think many of you are getting hung up by his approach. While I commend Will for all he has done and continues to do for wrestling in our State, I would caution that change cannot be made from inside a box. Change shouldn’t be feared; but often times change in the name of “good intentions” has a negative impact in other areas. Also, sometimes it is easier to get what you want changed incrementally instead of upsetting the entire apple cart. Finally, you should always try and understand you opposition’s point of view; I find this always leads to a better debate...and usually a better resolution at the end of the day. Not even Donald Trump has the luxury of firing everybody that pisses him off…eventually you have to work “with” those charged with the job-at-hand to make a positive difference.

Here is an article in today's Lawrence Journal World in which it discusses similar challenges that baseball has. I will point out that baseball is unique in that I think there are no limits to the number of players, the amount, or type of instruction that coaches can give in the off-season.


Baseball Challenges
Posted By: jimmie Re: Rule Recommendation for 2008-09 - 04/16/08 07:00 PM
Will, here's a thought, if you dont like the rules here in kansas why dont you just move and send your kids to Blair Academy?
Posted By: Chief Renegade Re: Rule Recommendation for 2008-09 - 04/16/08 07:21 PM
 Originally Posted By: jimmie
Will, here's a thought, if you dont like the rules here in kansas why dont you just move and send your kids to Blair Academy?


One of the weakest posts I've read.
Posted By: Gary Seibel Re: Rule Recommendation for 2008-09 - 04/16/08 08:09 PM
I have just two things to clarify and then I'm done on this subject that is to try to get the best 16 kids to the state tournament in 5A & 6A.

One:
I'm interrested in seeing this happen. Any other plan that reduces the number of state qualifiers will not get any support from me. If you are not directly involved with these two classes, stay out of it with any proposals. You will never convince me that this is good for kids.

Two:
I am not in agreement with all KSHSAA restrictions placed on wrestling. Until the time comes that changes are made, I do not support ignoring those restrictions because they stupid. There are consequences for operating outside KSHSAA guidelines that can go as far as having an individual's eligibility revoked or suspended and coaches terminated. Wink, Wink.

KSHSAA does allow wrestling coaches to do all they want with their athletes during summer recess, just not outside the season during the school year.
Posted By: GregMann Re: Rule Recommendation for 2008-09 - 04/16/08 08:09 PM
ORIGNALLY posted on April 27, 2007 by Kale Mann. I hope he does not mind my re-posting it, but in light of the current conversation going on it is probably good to read again:

"At the risk of beating a dead horse here, I would like to interject my two cents.

1st- We need to make sure that we maintain our focus of schools as educational institutions first and foremost. That is the main goal. We are fortunate enough to live in a society that also values competition and athletics, so that in our society schools and athletics go hand in hand. This is not the case in most countries. I think our athletic programs can enhance the learning that goes on in the classroom in several ways: getting kids to come to school who otherwise wouldn't, and by teaching team work, sacrifice, and self discipline. If we are talking about taking students out of school for large chunks of time in order to travel the country to compete, that is detrimental to the main priority of the school system.

2nd- I feel that it is not unreasonable to have some limit on matches. Under our current system of 30 competition points, it would be possible for a wrestler to wrestle 72 matches prior to Regional’s and State. Why this does not happen is because our coaches realize we are working with boys and young men. Coaches realize that the important time of the season is Regional’s and State, and schedule to try to get their athletes to peak at the end of the season. The vast majority of wrestlers could not/ would not survive a 70+ match season. The rate of injury and burn out would be very high. Granted, a very small percentage of wrestlers could handle that many matches, but as a coach who is interested in getting the TEAM to peak at the right time, it would probably be detrimental to that team to wrestle that many matches. Here are 2 things to consider in support of this position
1. In last month's (or 2 month's ago) edition of WIN magazine, Coach Spates of OU cited a major area of concern. His wrestlers that he was recruiting were not able to make it through a season. He attributed this to many of the wrestlers wrestling year round and wrestling too many matches during their developmental stages. He felt like many of these young men were already broken down.
2. There are no current wrestlers on this board posting in support of more matches. I would say that this would be evidence that they may not feel that 70+ matches in a high school season would be beneficial to them. Again, I think a small percentage could handle it, and in fact possibly thrive on that, but the vast majority would not be able to. We would lose them, and our numbers would decline even more.

3rd- If additional matches are desired by the student-athlete, there are (many) opportunities available to them. If higher level competition is desired at the national level, again that is available also. There are no limits on how far an individual can travel to a tournament outside of season. There are many tournaments around the nation (some even hear in our own backyard) that bring many of the nations top wrestlers together. For those interested, sign up and keep wrestling!

4th- Scholarships are mentioned several times on here. I agree with EGG, academics are where the money is at. In the recent past Mill Valley has produced 3 wrestlers that in my opinion could compete at some level collegiately had they so chosen to do so. All three chose not to, for various reasons. Fortunately for them (and a credit to them and their families) they were all very strong academically and did not need wrestling scholarships as they received academic scholarships. However, had they chosen to pursue wrestling, these young men would have been very attractive to college coaches. In today's climate at the NCAA level, where scholarship numbers are tied to graduation rates, college coaches are less likely to take a risk on a good wrestler with poor grades. He may not even be eligible to compete, and may end up costing the program scholarships in the future. Also full ride scholarships are rare in wrestling. Most wrestlers split scholarships, even the elite ones. This is so a coach can recruit more wrestlers to make the TEAM stronger. If the wrestler is able to accept less athletic money because they are also receiving academic money, it makes them more attractive to college coaches, and more valuable to the TEAM.

5th- Coaches "doing it for the money". What coaches are doing it for the money, and if so, what schools (rhetorical question, please do not post coaches names or names of schools!)? A fellow teacher in my school made more money 2 wrestling seasons ago than I did coaching wrestling. All he did was supervise tardies for about an hour a night 2-3 nights a week and he worked the clock at basketball games a couple of times a week. If people actually think that coaches coach for the money, they either have a strong misconception about what we get paid to coach (not much), or a lack of understanding of the immense amount of time, effort, and sacrifice that goes in to it. The sacrifices that go in to coaching quickly make anyone who is it in for the money get out. They can make more money pushing shopping carts at the Home Depot or Wal-Mart. The vast majority of coaches are also teachers, which is what they make the majority of their salary doing. If those coaches aren't getting it done in the classroom, the generally don't last very long either.

While I am not necessarily against change, I just want to make sure we keep the scope of the change to a rational level, and that we maintain focus on where it is most important: the development of STUDENT-athletes who are team players."

Kale Mann
April 27, 2007
Posted By: Ryan Jilka Re: Rule Recommendation for 2008-09 - 04/16/08 11:34 PM
 Originally Posted By: Gary Ulmer
Coach Seibel,

If any of your wrestlers or football players need jobs send them my way.

What I would like to ask Coach Gonzales or Coach Oeser is what are the advantages of changing the format of the 6A regionals to two 16 man tournaments with the top 8 going to state.

Gary Ulmer


Coach Ulmer,
While I can't speak for Gonz or Roy, I have been involved with Roy in trying to gain support for this change. The advantages are in a couple of areas:
1) No longer in 5&6A would a regional with 6 of the top kids in the state leave two of the probable placers at home. I've seen several regional meets that had to do this.
2) By sending the top eight, I can't forsee any regionals sending kids to state that didn't win a match at regionals. It should also make it much harder for guys with losing records to make it to state. I don't get too hung up in that, but I know that many people hate it.
3) You will no longer see the top two guys on the same side of the bracket at state, barring injury. I know people will jump on here about the upsets at regionals, so go ahead. I know that people get "caught," but that's just one of those things. Yes, it might put the two best on the same side, but it will happen much less often than the "luck of the draw" system we currently have.

Here is what I like: The two regional winners will automatically be on opposite sides at state. The regional runner ups will be on the opposite side from the guy that beat them at regionals. This should make for the best case scenario for getting the top two guys into the finals. It's not perfect, but hopefully better. I wish that there was a way to do something similar for 4-1A, but I'm not smart enough to figure out an efficient way of doing so.

I've got to run, but hopefully this clears it up a bit.

Have a good one,
Ryan
Posted By: Gary Ulmer Re: Rule Recommendation for 2008-09 - 04/17/08 12:36 PM
Ryan,

My thanks to you and coach Buckbee for your clarifications. To be fair Coach Oeser emailed me as well with his thoughts on 6A regional change.

This idea has merit. Once in awhile rule changes seem to benefit one geographic region over another or a certain school classification over others, but this one might actually benefit wrestling.

Gary Ulmer
Posted By: maybeimamazed Re: Rule Recommendation for 2008-09 - 04/17/08 03:43 PM
Ryan:

It would be a logistical nightmare to figure out a similar system in 4A and 321A. Unfortunately, that's just one of those things we have to live with. But insofar as 6A and 5A I think it's a great idea.

Although, if we went to my 48-48-48-everyone system.....Right Gary? LOL
Posted By: Jay Johnston Re: Rule Recommendation for 2008-09 - 04/17/08 05:23 PM
I have two separate thoughts in favor of previously stated proposals:

First - I also agree with the 48 school classification. I wrestled in high school in Kansas and now coach here, but did spend a 1 year coaching stint in Missouri 2 years ago. Our school was in Class 1 (smallest). This "even distribution" classification system gave a better depth to each weight class while still giving every one their fair share of glory and encouraging participation. I believe it would help, but not cure, the losing record dilema in some state tournaments.

Second - Being a coach in a 6A school, I also felt that Koch Arena provided a much better atmosphere than the Kansas Coliseum. Is there any possibility of keeping both 5A and 6A in Koch and switching to a 3 day tournament? They could be split between early and late sessions with the classes being brought together for the placing rounds or finals.

I know there are issues such as travel, referee expenses, and other financial hurdles that play into these issues but feel overall it would solve a few problems that have been on the table for a few years. Any suggestions?
Posted By: sportsfan02 Re: Rule Recommendation for 2008-09 - 04/17/08 06:05 PM
 Originally Posted By: J Johnston

Second - Being a coach in a 6A school, I also felt that Koch Arena provided a much better atmosphere than the Kansas Coliseum.

For those of us that were not at the 6A tournament this year, how many mats did they use in the preliminary rounds? Also, was there enough floor space for any additional mats?
Posted By: Jay Johnston Re: Rule Recommendation for 2008-09 - 04/17/08 06:21 PM
We used 3 mats and there is not enough room for any more mats. However, by switching to a 3 day tournament, which I have personally experienced with tremendous success, you could counter the space limitations. One class would go with a morning session and the other would wrestle in the late afternoon. This also gives spectators the option of watching the other class if they so choose. In MO they only wrestle the first round on Thursday and every one gets out of the arena at a pretty decent time.

I must preface all of this with the disclaimer that I am not blessed with good looks or a fully functioning brain - so my logic may be way off!
Posted By: Ryan Jilka Re: Rule Recommendation for 2008-09 - 04/18/08 03:13 AM
I do like the 48 x 3 model. Or a 72x2 for that matter. If we're talking about a three day tournament, let's try to get them all together. It could be rotated from Hays to Topeka to Wichita (or any other feasible city). I know that Hays puts on a great tournament, but I think it would still be very beneficial for them if the city could house such an event. FHSU would only have to host it every three years, but they shouldn't take a big financial hit since it would be at least three times larger than it's normal draw. I wouldn't want to do it if it meant that Hays couldn't do it. I believe they've earned the right to host it, not to mention I spent 6.5 of my best undergrad years there! \:\)

We'd all get to see the state's best in one location. With three years to plan each tournament, it could be a more spectacular event. I imagine the communities would donate or sponsor more since it wouldn't be a yearly expenditure. Heck, Wichita might even have time to come up with a decent hospitality room. \:D

What do you think? I think there is always a way to improve our sport if we use our collective creativity rather than our divisive criticism.
Posted By: sportsfan02 Re: Rule Recommendation for 2008-09 - 04/18/08 09:39 AM
Hays simply can't put down enough mats for such an event. If you are talking combining more than one class you are talking Wichita only. I have become convinced over the last year of so that we need to quit looking at combining all the classes at one venue and return to talking about a Grand State the following week. The coaches have had no luck getting the Dual State proposal passed so I think it is time to go back to what we know has already worked before and see if it would be accepted.
Posted By: maybeimamazed Re: Rule Recommendation for 2008-09 - 04/18/08 11:21 AM
Speaking as one who has been through a three-day, three-class tournament, you're going to need more than three or four mats, trust me.
Before Iowa went to this asinine four-day format (translate: $$$$), each of the three classes ran their first round and first round of consolations on Thursday (on eight mats), then the quarterfinals, semifinals and three rounds of consolations on Friday. Saturday afternoon was just for consolation semis and medal matches and Saturday night was the finals. It would be a great format in the new arena in Wichita for 6A, 5A and 4A.
As for moving 321A, you might as well be talking about moving the Rocky Mountains to Salina....it ain't happening.
Posted By: usawks1 Re: Rule Recommendation for 2008-09 - 04/19/08 12:27 PM
I would like to propose a plan that might satisfy a few of our wants!

That is ... having class/division regional, class/divisional State, followed by State on 3 consecutive weekends. I would not extend the season but push the classification regional back to what has traditionally been league weekend. All 3 would be sanctioned by KSHSAA and be part of the State Tournament Series!!

The class/divisional State would be like we have now ... but the All State would be like Grand State formally was! While we would still crown a divisional State Champ we could also crown an All State Champ!!

The All/Grand State could be rotated around ... the divisional State tournaments could be handled as they are right now.
Posted By: Husker Fan Re: Rule Recommendation for 2008-09 - 04/19/08 09:37 PM
Randy,

I really like that idea. I would change it slightly in that I would not like to see league go away so somewhere in the season I would like to see the league championship still being held. I guess that could be optional with each league. I have really enjoyed the EKL championships the last three years.

I think the final three weeks being the Class Regional Championship, then the Class State Championship, and the final week the All State or Grand State State Championship is an excellent State Championship Series format.

Would wrestling be prohibited from doing this currently by the KSHSAA? Does any other Kansas high school sport currently have a Grand State or All Class Championship?
Posted By: usawks1 Re: Rule Recommendation for 2008-09 - 04/20/08 03:26 PM
Not that I am aware of ... and that is one of the hurdles to clear! What they do for one, KSHSAA has to do for the others!
Posted By: Husker Fan Re: Rule Recommendation for 2008-09 - 04/20/08 11:33 PM
That makes it a very tough hurdle to jump over. I would think it would be very difficult to have an All Class State tournament series in a sport like football.
Posted By: Brian K. Patton Re: Rule Recommendation for 2008-09 - 04/21/08 05:40 PM
I guess I don't get it! The seasons over why do we need the kshaa permission to have a all state? Can KWCA or USAWKS sponsor
it after high school state?
Posted By: 24/7 Re: Rule Recommendation for 2008-09 - 04/21/08 06:15 PM
Because everyone but SR's are still bound by state rules. Like coaches cannot work with kids outside of the season during school year. This is one of the reasons Cokeley has voice such a strong opinion about the restrictions. It cuts off many different options.

24/7
Posted By: sportsfan02 Re: Rule Recommendation for 2008-09 - 04/21/08 07:02 PM
 Originally Posted By: 24/7
It cuts off many different options.

24/7

In the opinion of some!
Hello Brian. I should send you a copy of the email I sent Coach Will Cokeley on the process for Rule recommendations. I will try to explain briefly cause as you know I can get long-winded. All Kansas public and private schools 7-12 that provide extra curricular activities are govnered by KSHSAA. If I as a coach want a rule changed.
1. I submit the change to KWCA class rep.
2. He submits to KWCA Board of Directors.
3. The President of the KWCA then complies all rule
recommendations to be passed out the state tournament for all
Kansas Head coaches to review.
4. We as rank and file members vote on the rule changes.
5. The recommendations/changes are then collected by the class
rep and returned to KWCA president.
6. The KWCA BOD meet a week after state high school tournaments
the recommendations/changes are reviewed/tallied for % of
yes coaches want or no coaches do not want.
7. President of KWCA reviews the recomemendations with the KCA
8. The KCA presents a package of rule recommendations to KSHSAA
staff for reveiw.
9. The staff of KSHSAA and the KCA and KWCA President is
invitied to present to the KSHSAA executive board.
10. If a recommendation has the % of votes from membership and
with support of KSHSAA staff the items are voted on by the
77 member KSHSAA BOD.
I hope this helps you and others understand it is a process and it is extremely diffuclt for me. I serve on four wrestling board and it is very rewarding and I enjoy working for Kansas wrestling. But as a member of KSHSAA BOD it is a diffuclt position and often times I can get lost in all the policy decision making process. I know on the USAW Kansas Kids Board. Many of you would just say Gonzo how in the hell did that rule get in their. Or on the NWHOF Board how do we get a person in to the HOF. Or the KWCA board most of you are very understanding that we are trying to get a dual state passed. But the KSHSAA board it is like living our American Government class our senior year. I think after two years on this board. I might be better suited to work in the Kansas House of Representatives? I learned how to PM today. Ianswered over 20 plus messages. Some as far back as 75 days ago. So you can PM me and I will respond! Now the process I listed above is the one we KWCA have generally followed. But Coach Harris of Baldwin may have some short cuts he used the past two years and this past month our new President James Stout of Abilene. I know he can not wait to get to Topeka with his recommendations. RMG
Posted By: Husker Fan Re: Rule Recommendation for 2008-09 - 04/22/08 10:26 AM
 Originally Posted By: Brian K. Patton
I guess I don't get it! The seasons over why do we need the kshaa permission to have a all state? Can KWCA or USAWKS sponsor
it after high school state?


I would think that the USAWKS could. I suggested that on this forum several years ago. In a sense they already do except it only goes to 16 & Under so seniors and some juniors are not eligible for it. I think the USAWKS could do a Grand State High School tournament that would be a week or two after high school state that would include seniors so it would be open to all high school wrestlers from freshmen thru seniors. There would be no need for subs or districts with it. Without subs and districts and holding it closer to the end of the high school season, I think you would get more high schoolers participating in it than they do with the current USAWKS 14&U and 16&U classes. It could be and probably should be separate from the grade school tournament. That would allow the grade school tournament to consider adding 6 & under and possibly consider ending the season a little earlier as many have advocated. I think this is the closest thing that could be done for a Grand State in Kansas, because I just don't think it would be workable for all sports in Kansas and that evidently is a requirement for our state athletic association.
Posted By: usawks1 Re: Rule Recommendation for 2008-09 - 04/22/08 03:38 PM
... and any tournament held outside the KSHSAA season may not be well attended by the athletes.

USAWKS or KWCA could do it but I feel we need to find a way to work within the KSHSAA guidelines and the seasons so ALL would participate. And we eliminate all problems associated with coaching outside the season.
Posted By: Husker Fan Re: Rule Recommendation for 2008-09 - 04/23/08 12:17 PM
Randy,

I agree with you that any tournament held outside the KSHSAA season would not be as well attended as one during the KSHSAA season. There is no doubt that the best way for a Grand State All Class State Tournament would be within the KSHSAA guidelines that would allow for the high school coaches to be a part of it. I hope it happens that way someday again. The major obstacle that I see is this requirement that it has to be the same way for all sports. If they can get pass that maybe it could happen. It would be a wonderful thing for high school wrestling in Kansas and I do agree with you that it could solve a lot of what has been discussed on this topic.

I also wanted to rebut a little something Will said in an earlier post. I disagree with him that all parents want the class tournaments brought together in one arena. That may be true for the majority but not all parents. Some parents prefer shorter and less crowded tournaments. Personally I enjoyed having the 5A tournament separate from 6A this year. I know I am probably in the minority in this opinion. My son liked it better the year before in Wichita with 5A and 6A together. I enjoy a smaller tournament with room to move around better. For me a smaller tournament moves faster and is easier to follow. I definitely would not like a three day tournament as an alternative to our two day tournament.
Posted By: Brian K. Patton Re: Rule Recommendation for 2008-09 - 04/23/08 03:22 PM
Vince

I think you are in the majoity! Most Hard core or passionate fan
would like to see all the class's togther! I would not!
Posted By: Luedke 3:16 Re: Rule Recommendation for 2008-09 - 04/23/08 11:45 PM
So why do we have to have a grand State? How about this let's all wrestle in Hays. The first weekend 1,2,3A can go. The following Weekend 4,5,6A can go. I think they could possiblly fit 6 mats in Gross. Just change the set up a little. Of course the problem with this is that the East might not want to drive that far. I think it would be a great place to showcase wrestling plus it could all be televised by Smokey Hills Public TV. 4,5,6 Regionals would be held the weekend of the 1,2,3A State tourney. Plus we would be supporting a 4 year university and the community of Hays for being positive about wrestling. I know this is a little radical in some peoples eyes but I would like to see some money moved that direction. Hays has been there for Kansas Wrestling for a long time. They have a good facility etc. Just thoughts.
Posted By: maybeimamazed Re: Rule Recommendation for 2008-09 - 04/24/08 12:33 AM
I've heard worse ideas....everyone keeps talking about making the 321As move to wherever. Why? They have a good thing going in Hays and maybe the rest of the State can learn from them, and support FHSU wrestling at the same time.
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