Kansas Wrestling
Posted By: 2coach Injury Timeouts - 02/24/09 07:36 PM
I have a question to ask? Mr. Cokeley, I feel you could probably answer it the best. But I would not mind input from others also. I was at the 6A regionals in Dodge City, a kid got hurt, it was knee. Injury timeout starts, he gets up walks around, goes to his corner drinks water and continues to wrestle, that seems okay cause he did look like he got hurt. Now this is a different match, with different kids. Kid gets an injury timeout, goes to his corner gets a drink of water comes back and wrestles, he does this two or three other times, during the match. The only thing is, he did not seem hurt, it looked like he was just getting a drink, or tired and taking a break. Is that legal or a ref call, I do not get it? I've seen this all over, in kids and high school, not all the time just with a few wrestlers. So I guess my question is, is that fair can you get a injury timeout, so you can get a drink of water and take a break from your match???
Posted By: wrestlingparents Re: Injury Timeouts - 02/24/09 07:59 PM
The same thing happened time and time again last week in the Sunflower League tournament. A few times when they were in a pinning situation....
Posted By: Scooby Re: Injury Timeouts - 02/24/09 08:23 PM
I believe the answer is yes- injury timeout for water is OK-
Posted By: Beeson Re: Injury Timeouts - 02/24/09 08:23 PM
The Ref is not a doctor. If a wrestler says that he is hurt and needs an injury time out, the ref has to give it to him. The first time out is free, the second time the other wrestler gets his choice of up, down, or neutral. I think the third injury time out is an injury DQ. Blood does not count as an injury time out. Feel free to clarify if I am mistaken.
Posted By: Beeson Re: Injury Timeouts - 02/24/09 08:26 PM
Scooby is right...injury for water is ok, not very ethical, but ok.
Posted By: Scooby Re: Injury Timeouts - 02/24/09 08:29 PM
I would agree with beeson- but the rule stands for some reason- I say lets go to UFC fighting instead- no water breaker
Posted By: Dean Welsh Re: Injury Timeouts - 02/24/09 08:38 PM
I thought the ref starts a timer on one's injury time. Once they have used up a minute - they have used up all their time and foreit the match if they go past 1 minute. Except for blood, unlimited time on that. Clarification from somebody that knows this better than me?
Posted By: GEwrestler135 Re: Injury Timeouts - 02/24/09 08:59 PM
it is a minute thirty of injury time i believe
Posted By: Dean Welsh Re: Injury Timeouts - 02/24/09 09:27 PM
Here is what a KS HS Ref sent me via PM:

Injury time - 1:30 total, 2 time out limit, 3rd match stoppage for injury is injury default.

Blood time - 5:00 minutes total, no limit on number of blood time outs given but once 5:00 minutes is reached that match is defaulted.
_________________________
Posted By: hit it hard! Re: Injury Timeouts - 02/24/09 09:40 PM
To all of you wrestlers and aspiring wrestlers, I would like to take this oportunity to say this. Taking an injury time out to get a drink, rest, or God forbid, prevent a pin is the lowest, most unsportsman like, weenie thing that can be done on the mat. You may as well go kick your opponents mom too when you get off the mat. There is no pride at all in it. IT'S JUST WRONG!!!

Now don't anyone freak out, remember, I said "get a drink, rest, or God forbid, prevent a pin".
Posted By: hit it hard! Re: Injury Timeouts - 02/24/09 09:46 PM
Remember, everyone is watching and that is what you will be remembered for.
Posted By: Big Mac Re: Injury Timeouts - 02/24/09 09:46 PM
Dwelsh has the rule correct..I know in Nebraska we will NOT stop the match to take a drink of water..Only if we think the wrestler has an injury..Now if the wrestler is saying he's hurt then I think the right thing to do is stop the match and let them take injury time (and the drink).
Posted By: Dean Welsh Re: Injury Timeouts - 02/24/09 10:06 PM
I'm just quoting what a certified KS ref sent me in a PM.
Posted By: papab Re: Injury Timeouts - 02/24/09 11:22 PM
i personally think no water breaks... its only 6 mins and most wrestlers wanna stop because they arnt in shape... its there fault there not in shape.
Posted By: RedStorm Re: Injury Timeouts - 02/25/09 12:13 AM
I believe we are speaking here of the "crybaby" rule, shameful practice to use.
Posted By: 2coach Re: Injury Timeouts - 02/25/09 01:55 AM
I dont think it's right, that a wrestler does this, the ref does not need to be a doctor to see that the wrestler just wants a break. I know injuries can happen. I broke my thumb at the beginning of the third period and finished the match. Not once did I ask for an injury timeout, I lost because I could not hold him with my right hand, now this was many many years ago. These guys that do this and are not hurt should, heck I don't know maybe give a point or 2, to the other guy.
Posted By: Dean Welsh Re: Injury Timeouts - 02/25/09 01:59 AM
Again, from an official KS HS ref that has done state HS meets (I think this person brings up many helpful and good insights into this discussion):

NFHS rules state that taking an injury time out for a non injury related situation is "unethical". Unfortunately there really isn't a prescribed penalty for "unethical" behavior on the part of coaches, fans, competitors, etc. Being unethical is a somewhat different classification as being unsportsmanlike, even though the two often can go hand in hand.

As an official I am not a doctor and even if I was I certainly wouldn't be putting myself in a liability situation by practicing my craft on the mat away from a controlled situation. In other words if a wrestler indicates they are injured either through physical or verbal indications it is "neccasary" to grant an injury time out even though that competitor may not be injured. Consider the situation if I were to make a judgement that a wrestler truly was not injured but was just breathing hard because he/she was in a close match and working very hard. I tell that wrestler that I'm not going to grant a timeout and I reset them and blow the whistle. 10 seconds later they fall over, pass out, and something terrible happens to them. Guess whose butt is on the line for that? Me because I didn't grant the time out.

On the other hand when I grant the timeout and the wrestler takes some time, gets a drink of water, and comes back out and then passes out, I am not responsible for that because there is no way I could have known that was going to happen.

Now what a competitor does with their injury time is completely on them. If they unethically take an injury time out, then they and their coaches bear the responsibility and consequences of that action. They might get a letter from the State or nothing may happen to them, but I've done my duty as an official and that is all I can do. As far as what competitors are allowed to do during a charged timeout that is loosely defined in the rule book. They can drink water, their coach can coach them, they can take a puff of an inhaler, etc etc. Years back there didn't use to be a time out limit on occasions and no penalties as such. Then along came the 1 extra point for near fall situations for defensive wrestlers who took either blood or injury time outs in those near fall situations. The injury penalty would be collectively dubbed the "cry baby" rule.
Posted By: RedStorm Re: Injury Timeouts - 02/25/09 02:00 AM
If you are being turned with a basic half-nelson or say a barb-wire, two fairly common moves, and it hurts too bad that you need injury time, you shouldn't be wrestling to begin with, in my opinion.
Posted By: Jeff Broadbent Re: Injury Timeouts - 02/25/09 02:35 AM
2coach,

You say this happened two or three times in the same match. Did he go on to win that match?

If so, how? If the rule is stating that a third timeout is an injury default.

Did the referee address the issue of more than two injury timeouts in the match.

Just curious here...
Posted By: tigermonkey12 Re: Injury Timeouts - 02/25/09 02:58 AM
I say let them take a break to get a drink, what most wrestlers do not realize is that in doing so they are also giving their opponent a chance to rest and also get a drink, the "injury time" that they are using isnt really giving them any advantage
Posted By: Cokeley Re: Injury Timeouts - 02/25/09 03:02 AM
Originally Posted By: 2coach
I have a question to ask? Mr. Cokeley, I feel you could probably answer it the best. But I would not mind input from others also. I was at the 6A regionals in Dodge City, a kid got hurt, it was knee. Injury timeout starts, he gets up walks around, goes to his corner drinks water and continues to wrestle, that seems okay cause he did look like he got hurt. Now this is a different match, with different kids. Kid gets an injury timeout, goes to his corner gets a drink of water comes back and wrestles, he does this two or three other times, during the match. The only thing is, he did not seem hurt, it looked like he was just getting a drink, or tired and taking a break. Is that legal or a ref call, I do not get it? I've seen this all over, in kids and high school, not all the time just with a few wrestlers. So I guess my question is, is that fair can you get a injury timeout, so you can get a drink of water and take a break from your match???


You are allowed two injury time outs. They are basically on the honor system but that doesn't stop some from using them to catch their breath! You get two minutes of injury time. After the 2nd injury time out the opponent gets choice of position (depending on when this happens it can get a little complicated). If you call for a 3rd injury time out the match is over due to injury default. You only have one minute and 30 seconds of total injury time during those two timeouts. If you run out of time and cannot continue the match is over. Injury default. If there is blood it is a whole different set of circumstances.
Posted By: Boomer24 Re: Injury Timeouts - 02/25/09 03:03 AM
good point tigermonkey
Posted By: bawoody Re: Injury Timeouts - 02/25/09 03:21 AM
Jeff,
Yes, the injured wrestler did win and he only took 2 timeouts and gave up position when he did
Posted By: Shelstin Re: Injury Timeouts - 02/25/09 04:09 AM
There may be something going on here that we don't know about. I had a kid several years ago that had a few broken ribs. People thought that he was out of shape, and I got criticized for that. The thing is, he had a few broken ribs, they hurt, it was tough to practice, I gave him days off, and yeah, he wasn't in the best shape. But, it was late in the season and he was going to wrestle. We took our time outs and got our water, and he ended up with a title. Very, very few people knew the real issue, for obvious reasons. Not even in our own town. There are still some people here that think that he was just out of shape or not training, but I think he was pretty dang tough! Things may not always be as they seem.
Posted By: 2coach Re: Injury Timeouts - 02/25/09 12:08 PM
He won, don't ask me how. If you read my original post my guestion, is asking if it is fair or not, by that I was asking if there was a rule on that. Thank you all for the feed back.
Posted By: Dean Welsh Re: Injury Timeouts - 02/25/09 12:31 PM
Originally Posted By: Boomer24
good point tigermonkey


Not really if the non-time-out wrestler has momentum going his way, then he is put at a great disadvantage when the other STOPS that momentum to use an injury time-out. But, they are in the rulebook so he can 'fairly' do it. Obviously it is unethical if he isn't really hurt but that is just another can of worms.

Related: Somebody was putting a whipping on Ali once (I think it was when Cooper knocked Ali down at the end of a round - Ali was pretty much 'saved' by the bell'). During his time in the corner - Ali's trainer pulled the stitching out of Ali's glove. Then runs to the ref and says, "look! Look!" It takes another 2 minutes to get Ali ANOTHER set of gloves. Many, many years later - Dundee admitted to doing this to give his man more time to recover. Which he did and he came back and won the fight with a KO.
Posted By: Dean Welsh Re: Injury Timeouts - 02/25/09 12:41 PM
As the ref stated to me in a PM - he can be held LIABLE in a court of law if a kid/coach request a timeout and he makes a judgement call such as, "NAH, your kid is doing just fine..." And, then two seconds later the kid passes out.

Unnecessary risk on the ref's part. If they ask, grant it. It his its limits (time and frequency). And, as Cokely stated, "its on the honor system." Some of us have more honor than others. Some of us like to bend the rules fairly to whatever advantage we like to tweak out of it.

Some great bike racers have actually STOPPED and WAITED when they have seen that their opponent has crashed. Armstrong has done this before. He still won. His main competitor from Germany (Jan Ulrich) did this once. He lost. However, he did get "Sportsman of the Year" from many publications/organizations.
Posted By: Wag Re: Injury Timeouts - 02/25/09 02:45 PM
I've filed 3 reports with KSHSAA over my 11 years officiating wrestling. One was for some unnecessary verbal abuse by a coach (at a flippin JV tourney!) and the other two were to report what I thought was unethically using the injury timeouts. As an official, all you can do is grant the timeout and file a report if you think it was unethical. I don't know what ever came of those two situations, but at least I did what I could do.
Bottom line - like a lot of other rules, it sucks. Rules are rules and all we can do is make sure they are applied correctly. The ethics and morality are left up to the coach and wrestler.
Posted By: esj Re: Injury Timeouts - 02/25/09 02:59 PM
I'm not sure about how the rules differ from H.S. to college,but one of my favorite college wrestlers (2time AA)and sure to make it his 3rd this year calls T.O in most if not all of his matches.He may be the most talented wrestler in D-II but his gas tank usually needs a little recharge mid-match. He's not the only one,this seems to be a common tactic in college wrestling.Just wave your finger in a circle and its drink time.I have never seen him do this to get out of trouble,probably because he is seldom in trouble.
Posted By: 2coach Re: Injury Timeouts - 02/25/09 03:31 PM
Well then I think he should go play basketball, there the coach can take him out so he can recharge himself. Man this is wrestling, the greatest sport there is. To me that's a chicken #### way to wrestle. Sorry to all those that this offends(basketball players).
Posted By: Coach Prieto Re: Injury Timeouts - 02/26/09 04:46 PM
Rick, I think he was out of shape!!! Just kidding, but I'm curious to know which kid it was that went on to win it with broken ribs...
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