Kansas Wrestling
Posted By: djackson Which Derby finals do you want to see?? - 01/10/10 01:14 AM
I got all but I think three. Which one do you want to see first? It will take a little bit for me to upload them onto youtube.
119 for me.
Thanks... cool
Posted By: HEADUP Re: Which Derby finals do you want to see?? - 01/10/10 01:23 AM
sweet
112 would be very nice to see, Thanks
Just give us the link(s).
Thanks...
Posted By: djackson Re: Which Derby finals do you want to see?? - 01/10/10 01:49 AM
I will post the links as I get them uploaded looks like 30 minutes for the first one. I will upload as many as I can at a time.
I like it. I say fight the power and let the rest of is simple wrestling fans watch some wrestling on utube like the rest of america!
Posted By: djackson Re: Which Derby finals do you want to see?? - 01/10/10 02:49 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4aUHFqFfpFg
#152
I would like to see 135 Nitcher Moeder also please
Cokeley's match please. I heard from many that the ref was counting back points at the end of the OT yet Cokeley gets awarded NO points??!!

I just want to know if the ref was counting back points for Cokeley or not at the end. I'm no ref, but I have been told that if the ref was counting back points, then Cokeley should have won. Any one see this match and care to comment?

Congrats to both young men. It was an exciting, hard-fought battle. Very enjoyable to watch.
Posted By: J. Dale Re: Which Derby finals do you want to see?? - 01/10/10 04:40 AM
Wasn't there but it looks like from the video that the ref counts at 10:01. If there was a count then control should have been awarded.
I was there.

I was watching the young men wrestle and was too excited to watch both them and the refs at the same time. My slow old brain doesn't work that fast!

But many high school wrestlers around me (and they were NOT from SJA) said they clearly saw the ref counting back points.

If the ref decided this outstanding match rather than the two outstanding young men - then that is a real shame. But, stuff happens. The only tourney that every one seems to remember for a long, long time - is the one that is held in late Feb (isn't? - what is the date for the state tourney?)
Originally Posted By: djackson


Thanks for the uploads! You da man!
Posted By: HEADUP Re: Which Derby finals do you want to see?? - 01/10/10 08:14 AM
i saw 2!!!.
Posted By: Chase Re: Which Derby finals do you want to see?? - 01/10/10 09:24 AM
I didn't see any control .. but I did see the Cokely kid push the match the whole time. Not too much action from the VC kid
Posted By: djackson Re: Which Derby finals do you want to see?? - 01/10/10 10:36 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zz90qdgtePY
103 - Bonilla Godd vs Burley GB
Posted By: djackson Re: Which Derby finals do you want to see?? - 01/10/10 10:37 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yltvEyO756A
112 - Dean VC vs Helms AC
Posted By: djackson Re: Which Derby finals do you want to see?? - 01/10/10 10:38 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wMc1OPSSiYw
171 - Reed WH vs Keith BC
Posted By: djackson Re: Which Derby finals do you want to see?? - 01/10/10 10:39 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iDgdp7sDaUY
189 Dylan Walker ELD vs Beard GODD
Posted By: HEADUP Re: Which Derby finals do you want to see?? - 01/10/10 01:43 PM
i watched it again, i still see a reversal, my wife didn't see control (beyond reaction time), as the rules state. i saw blair push the match at the beginning, when cokeley wrestled defensive. then i saw blair wrestle defensive at the end trying to push it to ot. on the reversal when blair was on his hip he had no control, cokely was clearly on top, but like i said my wife saw it different. anyway great match, bad sportsmanship, too bad.
Originally Posted By: Chase
I didn't see any control .. but I did see the Cokely kid push the match the whole time. Not too much action from the VC kid


OK. You wrote "I didn't see any control . . ." Does that mean from EITHER of them? Therefore a one point escape 'should' have been the call?
Posted By: djackson Re: Which Derby finals do you want to see?? - 01/10/10 02:40 PM
I had to break the #119 and #135 into two parts. Here is the #119
part #1 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N-1ARgdO1y0
part #2 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0wq6JoTCGZw
Originally Posted By: suckerpunch
bad sportsmanship,



That's a nice way of saying it, loss of composure on the mat is very unbecoming, win or lose that's not the place to lose control of your emotions. be mad, throw your headgear, shout profanities...... in the locker room, not in front of the whole gym. Honestly, NOT what I expected to see from a high caliber wrestler like Ryne.
Posted By: bawoody Re: Which Derby finals do you want to see?? - 01/10/10 03:04 PM
Anyone have the 285 match?
Posted By: Beeson Re: Which Derby finals do you want to see?? - 01/10/10 03:06 PM
My two cents...the ref got it right. I did not see a reversal or a loss of control. I also have to disagree with Chase...Blair pushed the match just as much as Cokely did. He took the last shot of the match in regulation. It was a good match on both kids part.
Originally Posted By: Beeson
My two cents...the ref got it right. I did not see a reversal or a loss of control. I also have to disagree with Chase...Blair pushed the match just as much as Cokely did. He took the last shot of the match in regulation. It was a good match on both kids part.


Beeson, thanks for sharing your thoughts. I agree with most of it. My question to you is two fold:

Did one of the refs have a 2 count for Cokeley at around the 10 minute mark and if he did, what would that do for the scoring? I'm not being a smart -ss. I just think you know much more about this stuff than I do and I respect your opinion.
Posted By: nastyway Re: Which Derby finals do you want to see?? - 01/10/10 04:07 PM
ha ha it is great to see a premadonna get beat and act like a fool nice sportsmanship
Posted By: yeti Re: Which Derby finals do you want to see?? - 01/10/10 04:20 PM
140??
Posted By: Beeson Re: Which Derby finals do you want to see?? - 01/10/10 04:24 PM
Watch the Refs right arm as he starts the match just before the 10 minute mark. As he runs to the action, before any possible back exposure, his right arm swings as he is going to the action. I do not think that the ref is counting back exposure, I believe is arm swings as he is circling. His arm also swings at the 10:04 mark when there could be no possible back exposure. Sound would be nice as I know this official usually counts out loud so there is no confusion. I personally do not think he gave a count.

To answer the second part of your question if a count, even a one count was given, it would be a reversal.
Posted By: yeti Re: Which Derby finals do you want to see?? - 01/10/10 04:35 PM
My opinion, blair legitamately lost control which should have given Cokeley an escape point. We could speculate all day about it. As the record stands, blair won the match.
Originally Posted By: Beeson
Watch the Refs right arm as he starts the match just before the 10 minute mark. As he runs to the action, before any possible back exposure, his right arm swings as he is going to the action. I do not think that the ref is counting back exposure, I believe is arm swings as he is circling. His arm also swings at the 10:04 mark when there could be no possible back exposure. Sound would be nice as I know this official usually counts out loud so there is no confusion. I personally do not think he gave a count.

To answer the second part of your question if a count, even a one count was given, it would be a reversal.


Interesting. Good points. Thanks Beeson.
Originally Posted By: yeti
My opinion, blair legitamately lost control which should have given Cokeley an escape point. We could speculate all day about it. As the record stands, blair won the match.


True. Can't change the outcome. Good point. But, we can all learn from a discussion about it. Case in point, Beeson teaching me that even if the ref had counted ONCE, it would have been a reversal. I didn't know that. Thanks again.
Posted By: Cokeley Re: Which Derby finals do you want to see?? - 01/10/10 04:52 PM
Originally Posted By: nastyway
ha ha it is great to see a premadonna get beat and act like a fool nice sportsmanship


It is prima donna. It you are going to be a richard at least learn to spell the key term in your statement. smile

If you have never been in the situation, which I doubt you have, you cannot pass judgement. If you do decide to pass judgement then put your name on your post!

He tossed his headgear. It was underhanded. Big deal. Shelton tried to lecture him after a heartbreaking and questionable ending. Shake hands bump knuckles but do not grab the wrestler. Leave the lecturing to wrestler's coach.

You ask a teenager to turn it up, fill himself with andreline, go out and battle for 7.5 minutes but then immediately act like a perfect gentleman. Give him a break. Vince Lombardi says "Show me a good loser and I'll show you a loser." I am not raising any losers in my house.

I have seen much worse. He shook Cade's hand and followed the post match procedure. Do I wish he would have held onto his headgear and kept his mouth shut, absolutely but that is between me and Ryne not everyone on this forum.

Bottom line. Two great kids battled. One had to lose. Hats off to Cade. Good luck to both. I hope they are both on top of the podium in Salina at the end of February.
Well said. I think some easily forget the level our kids get to during the matches. Of course, some just want to be jerks and take jabs at others. cool
Posted By: djackson Re: Which Derby finals do you want to see?? - 01/10/10 05:05 PM
I had to break the #119 and #135 into two parts. Here is the 135
part #1 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UQFbUwHvJes
Part #2 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8_DoqOU1cYs
Posted By: nastyway Re: Which Derby finals do you want to see?? - 01/10/10 05:10 PM
thanks for the english lesson cokeley i appreciate it
Originally Posted By: Cokeley
Originally Posted By: nastyway
ha ha it is great to see a premadonna get beat and act like a fool nice sportsmanship


It is prima donna. It you are going to be a richard at least learn to spell the key term in your statement. smile

If you have never been in the situation, which I doubt you have, you cannot pass judgement. If you do decide to pass judgement then put your name on your post!

He tossed his headgear. It was underhanded. Big deal. Shelton tried to lecture him after a heartbreaking and questionable ending. Shake hands bump knuckles but do not grab the wrestler. Leave the lecturing to wrestler's coach.

You ask a teenager to turn it up, fill himself with andreline, go out and battle for 7.5 minutes but then immediately act like a perfect gentleman. Give him a break. Vince Lombardi says "Show me a good loser and I'll show you a loser." I am not raising any losers in my house.

I have seen much worse. He shook Cade's hand and followed the post match procedure. Do I wish he would have held onto his headgear and kept his mouth shut, absolutely but that is between me and Ryne not everyone on this forum.

Bottom line. Two great kids battled. One had to lose. Hats off to Cade. Good luck to both. I hope they are both on top of the podium in Salina at the end of February.


Well said Will. I agree with all your points.
Posted By: HEADUP Re: Which Derby finals do you want to see?? - 01/10/10 06:18 PM
Originally Posted By: Cokeley


You ask a teenager to turn it up, fill himself with andreline, go out and battle for 7.5 minutes but then immediately act like a perfect gentleman. Give him a break. Vince Lombardi says "Show me a good loser and I'll show you a loser." I am not raising any losers in my house.

I have seen much worse. He shook Cade's hand and followed the post match procedure. Do I wish he would have held onto his headgear and kept his mouth shut, absolutely but that is between me and Ryne not everyone on this forum.


you are right will, it's tough to lose. we all have seen worse. do we all wish we would have seen better from ryne, i believe so. some people are going to speak out of envy, you can't let them drag you into the street. i'm sure that you and the coaches will deal with it. however i don't think that in your position you should be jumping anyone, for discussing anything on this forum, no matter how touchy the subject. ryne will be on the top of the podium, i know he will put in the work. i commend him for seeking the competition, we all know that it's sometimes tough to learn until you lose. good luck to you, ryne, reece, and sam. i know there are no losers in your house.
Posted By: Chase Re: Which Derby finals do you want to see?? - 01/10/10 06:28 PM
Originally Posted By: dwelsh
Originally Posted By: Chase
I didn't see any control .. but I did see the Cokely kid push the match the whole time. Not too much action from the VC kid


OK. You wrote "I didn't see any control . . ." Does that mean from EITHER of them? Therefore a one point escape 'should' have been the call?


I was reffering to the last second reversal attempt by the bottom man that people are debating, I was stating in my opinion I didn't see any control to award any points. The VC kid stayed on the leg after the scramble when the towel came in, so I dont see an excape either.
No one ever said Cokeley was a loser. It was a great match, and as a former college wrestler they both are very talented. And Mr. Cokeley i do egree with all your point, and i am a close friend of Coach Wyant that used to coach your son, and he said a lot of good things about your son. And i would be lying if i didnt say i wasnt a little dissapointed with the reaction. I am a big firm believer in "WIN LIKE A MAN, LOSE LIKE A MAN". Yes it is definatly between you and him and i wish the best of luck with it. You do have a great son and he has a bright future. Everyone makes mistakes and its how they bounce back is when there true character shows.
Posted By: irionman Re: Which Derby finals do you want to see?? - 01/10/10 07:29 PM
Are there any links up for the outcome of this tournament? (I mainly wanna see what happened with 215 and 285)
Posted By: Cokeley Re: Which Derby finals do you want to see?? - 01/10/10 07:50 PM
Originally Posted By: nastyway
thanks for the english lesson cokeley i appreciate it


It is actually Italian and if you can take time to read you will find that it is a very offensive term. I will just assume you had no idea what it meant since you don't even know your own name. By the way, the lesson is free of charge. smile
Posted By: djackson Re: Which Derby finals do you want to see?? - 01/10/10 08:30 PM
#215 and #285 uploading now
The back and forth discussion on the sportsmanship issue is interesting! If this kid doesn’t have a history of this type of behavior after a loss, I think we should cut him some slack. The “In the heat of the battle” and the “I’ve seen worse” argument however are just excuses. I wonder how Nitcher handled his loss in the finals, or the majority of other wrestlers on the high school and college level that lost hard fought matches this weekend? Unfortunately this stuff does happen occasionally, just learn from it and move on.
I think the famous quote from Supreme Court Justice, Potter Stewart, is applicable to poor sportsmanship,
“I know it when I see it”
Will, that sure is nice of you to give old 'nasty' lessons free of charge! ;-)

We are humans, not robots. And, you without sin, throw the first stone. It is unreasonable to expect anyone to turn off the testosterone/adrenaline switch immediately after such a match. Maybe Jesus and a few other could do it, but I know I sure couldn't.

I can't imagine the pressure Ryne is under. All that success. A HUGH target on his back every time he steps out on the mat.

I for one, enjoy watching him. If others are jealous of his skills/success maybe they should see a good shrink.

Way to man up a weight class Ryne and keep working hard, and wrestling aggressive!

Dean Welsh
Posted By: BJobe Re: Which Derby finals do you want to see?? - 01/10/10 09:50 PM
It is 100% reasonable for someone to turn off the testosterone/adrenaline switch and show class and sportsmanship after a hard fought battle. It is done thousands of times a year, on many levels. I understand wrestling is a very emotional sport, but class and sportsmanship should be of high priority to our student-athletes.

Anyone who has wrestled knows the overwhelming feeling of disappointment after a loss, regardless, it should be taken with dignity.

Jake Herbert did it in the pinnacle of our sport, the Olympics, why can't we?
Because we are not all clones of each other. And, I doubt very seriously if this is a constant pattern of behavior for Ryne. He made a mistake. His father has owned up to that on this forum. And, his father said he will deal with his son.

Have you not made any mistakes?

PS: Comparing a grown man Herbert to a young man still in HS is apples and oranges. Finally, I have seen many HS kids do similar things as Ryne did. But, he gets crucified for it because he is a stud.
MAN CRUSH !!
Posted By: BJobe Re: Which Derby finals do you want to see?? - 01/10/10 10:57 PM
There is no excuse for poor sportsmanship, ever.

I was not there, I made a general post on sportsmanship and class. My post was not personal or directed at anyone.

Jake Herbert is also a stud.
Posted By: shak4z Re: Which Derby finals do you want to see?? - 01/10/10 11:03 PM
I am new to this forum and new to wrestling as a whole. Don't know who is who but would like to say I think this took a wrong turn somewhere. Not sure if it was the name calling or the poor sport comment but from what I saw a KID reacted to a loss. Maybe not the way some of you would have liked, thus the poor sport comments. Which brings out the defensive comments. We could all learn something from this..... Just shut up and wrestle!
Posted By: djackson Re: Which Derby finals do you want to see?? - 01/10/10 11:05 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qXrDpU0jPHM
#215
Originally Posted By: Steve Earle
MAN CRUSH !!


Nah, I'm not into that kind of stuff.

Just a nice family that I would like to give my support to. They do much for the whole KS wrestling family.
Posted By: Thompson Re: Which Derby finals do you want to see?? - 01/10/10 11:14 PM
Cokeley Blair was a great match--saw it on youtube. The sportsmanship aspect is for the referees who are on site to decide--whether they think it is appropriate or not, misconduct, whatever--and it looked like that there was a lot of emotion in that match.

Aside from that, it is a constant battle to keep teenagers emotions under control. In matches of this caliber the fans usually pick a side too and they cheer and boo however appropriately or inappropriately. I have seen fans boo wrestlers who are upset and emotional after matches(if it is the guy they were rooting against who lost) and lots of adults not controlling their emotions as well.

I guess the point is that it is easy to judge someone's fit on video, but the environment, the fans, the intensity of the match, the pressure to win, the expectation of success and hormones have a great deal to do with a wrestler's reactions.

There are no excuses to be made for emotional outbursts, but fathers and coaches across the state have usually spoken with how we want our wrestlers to conduct themselves on and off the mat. All of this doesn't mean that in the heat of the moment our wrestlers who may be upstanding individuals, leaders, captains of their team and good people won't have a lapse.

I
Originally Posted By: Thompson
Cokeley Blair was a great match--saw it on youtube. The sportsmanship aspect is for the referees who are on site to decide--whether they think it is appropriate or not, misconduct, whatever--and it looked like that there was a lot of emotion in that match.

Aside from that, it is a constant battle to keep teenagers emotions under control. In matches of this caliber the fans usually pick a side too and they cheer and boo however appropriately or inappropriately. I have seen fans boo wrestlers who are upset and emotional after matches(if it is the guy they were rooting against who lost) and lots of adults not controlling their emotions as well.

I guess the point is that it is easy to judge someone's fit on video, but the environment, the fans, the intensity of the match, the pressure to win, the expectation of success and hormones have a great deal to do with a wrestler's reactions.

There are no excuses to be made for emotional outbursts, but fathers and coaches across the state have usually spoken with how we want our wrestlers to conduct themselves on and off the mat. All of this doesn't mean that in the heat of the moment our wrestlers who may be upstanding individuals, leaders, captains of their team and good people won't have a lapse.

I


Well said. He had 'a lapse'. If any one else hasn't, then let them throw the first stone.

I spoke with his father ten minutes after the match. He was calm. He wasn't a raving maniac. I saw from the stands, him talking to and calming his son down immediately after the match. It is obvious that Will does not approve of his son's 'fit' - again, he already said that on this thread. So, why don't we all just drop it?

No one is trying to excuse it. Just trying to explain why it might have happened. Explanation, not an excuse. And, again - if you have never made any mistakes or had a lapse - please write and tell us how and where you got this incredible gift of ALL OF THE TIME self-control. I'd like to buy some of that!
Posted By: shak4z Re: Which Derby finals do you want to see?? - 01/10/10 11:58 PM
130?
Posted By: BigPin22 Re: Which Derby finals do you want to see?? - 01/11/10 12:11 AM
130, 285 if you have the time.

Thanks for the videos!
Posted By: djackson Re: Which Derby finals do you want to see?? - 01/11/10 01:16 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XhDnYjYweCE
#285
Posted By: djackson Re: Which Derby finals do you want to see?? - 01/11/10 01:23 AM
I didnt get #130
Posted By: BigPin22 Re: Which Derby finals do you want to see?? - 01/11/10 01:29 AM
125lbs. had to be a good one, I can't wait to see it. Thanks
Posted By: shak4z Re: Which Derby finals do you want to see?? - 01/11/10 01:40 AM
This has been great to watch. Thanks again for posting
Posted By: djackson Re: Which Derby finals do you want to see?? - 01/11/10 01:46 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kyFv6lcHKn8
#125
Might take a few minutes to process
Posted By: yeti Re: Which Derby finals do you want to see?? - 01/11/10 01:52 AM
Thanks for all the work your putting in jackson, did you record 140?
Posted By: djackson Re: Which Derby finals do you want to see?? - 01/11/10 02:04 AM
You all are welcome but #160 is all I have left to put up.
I was coaching at an open tourney being refereed by a young man while my 12 year old son sat beside me. During the match the young ref made a call in which the opposing coach got up and began screaming in the face of the ref. The young ref explained himself to the coach and acted professionaly and we went on with the match. I don't remember the call, but I know it wasn't something to get that worked up about, it is kids wrestling, and the kids continued on. When the match was done, I told my son that young ref really had gained my respect for the way he handled himself. My 12 year old informed me that the young ref was Ryne Cokeley. He said he hoped that he hoped someday he could give back to kids wrestling like Ryne does.

We have all been there when things didn't go our way and let our emotions get to us. That is part of life and growing up. We learn from it and move on.

I for one am thankful that we have good quality kids like this that represent KS. Thanks to these two wrestlers for giving your everything on the mat! It gave something for all of us sitting on our couch to talk about!
Just a personal note about 285...
I think Tylor Woodruff from Goddard does an awesome job for a young man of his age and his size!
He cant be more then a little over 200 pounds!
Impressive!
Posted By: HEADUP Re: Which Derby finals do you want to see?? - 01/11/10 03:02 AM
yeah, the pitt hwt was able to pick woodruff up pretty easily. in the 1st 2 periods they wrestled like 130lbers. the 3rd was much slower. the pitt kid has beat some other ranked kids i think, looking at results he has won 3 tourneys, yet when i looked at 5a rankings he isn't ranked. what is his record, anyone know? thanks again djackson, this has been great for those of us who couldn't make it.
Posted By: irionman Re: Which Derby finals do you want to see?? - 01/11/10 03:34 AM
Originally Posted By: highcrotch
Just a personal note about 285...
I think Tylor Woodruff from Goddard does an awesome job for a young man of his age and his size!
He cant be more then a little over 200 pounds!
Impressive!



I'm impressed with him. I wrestled him through the club program here, but never thought he'd go to do 285. (he is a bit over 200, but not much though)
Posted By: djackson Re: Which Derby finals do you want to see?? - 01/11/10 03:52 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NKP6DSBLeac
#160
Originally Posted By: highcrotch
Just a personal note about 285...
I think Tylor Woodruff from Goddard does an awesome job for a young man of his age and his size!
He cant be more then a little over 200 pounds!
Impressive!


Amen to that! It was a real 'David vs. Goliath' kind of thing and little David just about pulled it off!
Originally Posted By: Paratroop
I was coaching at an open tourney being refereed by a young man while my 12 year old son sat beside me. During the match the young ref made a call in which the opposing coach got up and began screaming in the face of the ref. The young ref explained himself to the coach and acted professionaly and we went on with the match. I don't remember the call, but I know it wasn't something to get that worked up about, it is kids wrestling, and the kids continued on. When the match was done, I told my son that young ref really had gained my respect for the way he handled himself. My 12 year old informed me that the young ref was Ryne Cokeley. He said he hoped that he hoped someday he could give back to kids wrestling like Ryne does.

We have all been there when things didn't go our way and let our emotions get to us. That is part of life and growing up. We learn from it and move on.

I for one am thankful that we have good quality kids like this that represent KS. Thanks to these two wrestlers for giving your everything on the mat! It gave something for all of us sitting on our couch to talk about!


You mean that 'prema donna' stooped to something as low as reffing a kid's tourney? You mean that 'brat' did not throw a 'fit' when the adult was busy throwing his?

Hmmmmm . . . Very interesting. Sounds like a positive member of the KS wrestling family and a young man of high self-control. Maybe that is why he is such a good wrestler. Discipline, hard-work and a high degree of self-control all go together hand in hand to produce excellence. Thanks for sharing a cool story.
Originally Posted By: shak
I am new to this forum and new to wrestling as a whole. Don't know who is who but would like to say I think this took a wrong turn somewhere. Not sure if it was the name calling or the poor sport comment but from what I saw a KID reacted to a loss. Maybe not the way some of you would have liked, thus the poor sport comments. Which brings out the defensive comments. We could all learn something from this..... Just shut up and wrestle!


And, I'd bet ya a dollar that his Dad said something like that to him after wards ('just shut up and wrestle' . . .)

I imagine there were several things Ryne 'reacted' to. The crowd. His opponent might have taunted him a bit at the end. The opposing coaching grabbing him at the end. The loss. And other personal issues that I cannot mention on this forum. Again, not excuses - just explanations. Will has already acknowledge on this forum that it was wrong and that he would take care of it. Everyone makes mistakes. If you think you don't - you just did because you are a liar('you' in a general sense - I'm not attacking you 'shak').
Posted By: HEADUP Re: Which Derby finals do you want to see?? - 01/11/10 11:23 AM
Originally Posted By: dwelsh
I'm not attacking you 'shak'


that's a good stance to take dean, he and that goliath you mentioned are cousins! LOL.

to everyone: i started this mess by saying bad sportsmanship!!! i meant in no way for it to become a witch-hunt. will and i have exchanged personal messages, which is a better way to go about it. again i did not intend for us to get off track.
Originally Posted By: suckerpunch
Originally Posted By: dwelsh
I'm not attacking you 'shak'


that's a good stance to take dean, he and that goliath you mentioned are cousins! LOL.

to everyone: i started this mess by saying bad sportsmanship!!! i meant in no way for it to become a witch-hunt. will and i have exchanged personal messages, which is a better way to go about it. again i did not intend for us to get off track.


LOL on Shak and David! Glad you and Will got everything patched up. Very cool.

And, agreed - PM is the best way to handle this delicate stuff. But if someone like 'nasty comes out and attacks on the forum, then I think others have the right to protect against said attack via this forum.

Take care.
Another angle on the 152 final...

http://www.catchitkansas.com/global/video/flash/popupplayer.asp?ClipID1=4446594&h1=Wrestling%20Highlights%3A%20Derby%20Invitational&vt1=v&at1=Agriculture&d1=433967&LaunchPageAdTag=Agriculture&activePane=info&rnd=11153281
Posted By: badbo Re: Which Derby finals do you want to see?? - 01/11/10 01:36 PM
I am just glad we did not go. It was too cold.
Posted By: Beeson Re: Which Derby finals do you want to see?? - 01/11/10 01:43 PM
On that highlight film...I saw two in the finals look like Prima Donna's, one during and one after.
Posted By: J. Dale Re: Which Derby finals do you want to see?? - 01/11/10 02:10 PM
good video of that match on catch it kansas. watch the right arm of the ref at 6:54.
Awesome highlight!!! I have held off on commenting but this highlight made me.

First, it was a Fabulous match! I loved it & was looking forward to it. The match did not disappoint at all.

Second, I did think that Ryan got slighted on some points.

Third, is Ryan's behavior was the least of the discussion in the group I was with.

We were all talking as we walked out the door about what the other coach did and said while the 2 wrestlers were still in the middle.

That moment was the big deal! Also, the double handed shake for purposes of only pulling him in.

The next thing was the taunting by Ryan's opponent. He started the taunting very clearly to me. Ryan's action was a reaction & really not that big of a deal. In the end I'm not disappointed with either wrestler. The match was Awesome & the center stuff no big deal.

Really, though did anybody hear and see that VC coach. I don't want to put him out there like that and describe the actions when I may be mistaken.... but that was what we were talking about. grin
Dean, here's what you said when a TOHK kid had a bit of a fit after a loss.

Originally Posted By: dwelsh
This year a Blue Springs [MO] wrestler was ranked #1 and was undefeated. He did something wrong. His coach and team held him accountiable and did not let him wrestle at the state tourney.

S. Hill made a mistake his So year. It cost him a trip to the tourney. I hated to see him miss it but i but he learned some great LIFE-LONG lessons.

Things like this is what teaches kids responsibility.

Going 'easy' on them and making excuses for them is really unloving. It can put them in an early grave and/or in jail.

Discipline your son, for in that there is hope; do not be a willing party to his death. (Prov 19:18 NIV)
A hot-tempered man must pay the penalty; if you rescue him, you will have to do it again. (Prov 19:19 NIV)
Listen to advice and accept instruction, and in the end you will be wise. (Prov 19:20 NIV)
Originally Posted By: Beeson
On that highlight film...I saw two in the finals look like Prima Donna's, one during and one after.


Both wrestlers lost it a bit after the match.
Posted By: shak4z Re: Which Derby finals do you want to see?? - 01/11/10 02:48 PM


Quote:
('you' in a general sense - I'm not attacking you 'shak').


heck i am on the kids side here. obviously i dont know what i am doing posting on here. I thought it was a great match and did not undrestand what all the uproar was about. i will try not to throw a wrench into these threads anymore.
Posted By: Beeson Re: Which Derby finals do you want to see?? - 01/11/10 02:52 PM
Originally Posted By: Chief Renegade
Originally Posted By: Beeson
On that highlight film...I saw two in the finals look like Prima Donna's, one during and one after.


Both wrestlers lost it a bit after the match.


I wasn't referring to the 152 lb. match Chief. Two of the other champions acted poorly, and both can be seen on the highlight film. I pointed them out to my son, and hopefully he will learn from them, how not to act.
That was one heck of an exciting match from start to finish. Both guys went out there and got after it and each pushed the pace. One of the best high school matches that I have seen in KS high school history. Emotions sometimes get the best of us and is it acceptable at the time? NO! But it happens to the best of us and like many said it is a learning lesson. Watch the Div 1 NCAA finals at 149 last year. Metcalf VS Caldwell. I don't think that Brent Metcalf was very happy with the way he reacted to his loss at the end. I'm sure coach Brands took care of it and Brent learned from it and is now focusing on another national title. The way he reacted does not make him a bad person or a bad person for the sport he hates to lose and acted with poor sportsmanship during that match. I'm sure both coaches will take care of it and both of these wrestlers will refocus and be successful at the end of the year. Great match and in the referees defense not an easy match to officiate. Lots of questionable scramble positions.
Posted By: BigPin22 Re: Which Derby finals do you want to see?? - 01/11/10 03:56 PM
Originally Posted By: Jason McComb

We were all talking as we walked out the door about what the other coach did and said while the 2 wrestlers were still in the middle.

That moment was the big deal! Also, the double handed shake for purposes of only pulling him in.


Really, though did anybody hear and see that VC coach. I don't want to put him out there like that and describe the actions when I may be mistaken.... but that was what we were talking about. grin


Well, it's only reasonable that you tell us what you think you saw, because even though you don't want to put the opposing coach out there, that is exactly what you did!

I personally don't think any of it is a big deal. Wrestling is a very emotional sport and many times gets the best of athletes, coaches, parents, refs, spectators, etc.

Losing sucks!


Originally Posted By: shak


Quote:
('you' in a general sense - I'm not attacking you 'shak').


heck i am on the kids side here. obviously i dont know what i am doing posting on here. I thought it was a great match and did not undrestand what all the uproar was about. i will try not to throw a wrench into these threads anymore.



Ha! You are probably the best voice of reason. Some of us old dudes need to grow up! ;-)
Posted By: irionman Re: Which Derby finals do you want to see?? - 01/11/10 05:05 PM
Originally Posted By: BigPin22
Wrestling is a very emotional sport and many times gets the best of athletes, coaches, parents, refs, spectators, etc.

Losing sucks!


This is pretty much everything all summed up, or it is in my opinion.
Posted By: J. Dale Re: Which Derby finals do you want to see?? - 01/11/10 05:38 PM
i just noticed that the end of the cokely/blair match is edited.
Posted By: J. Dale Re: Which Derby finals do you want to see?? - 01/11/10 05:45 PM
I understand that the whole match is still there but if people are going to trash Ryne then they should be able to watch the sportsmanship of the others as well.
Posted By: badbo Re: Which Derby finals do you want to see?? - 01/11/10 06:00 PM
It was too cold to wrestle this weekend anyway.

The "P" Club.
Posted By: djackson Re: Which Derby finals do you want to see?? - 01/12/10 01:05 AM
#135 match in one link http://www.flowrestling.org/videos/play/260380
Originally Posted By: J. Dale
I understand that the whole match is still there but if people are going to trash Ryne then they should be able to watch the sportsmanship of the others as well.


Yep. Good point. The VC kid appears to wave his hands around in the air first at the conclusion of the match, in a taunting fashion. Ryne took the bait. I doubt he'll do that again.
Posted By: djackson Re: Which Derby finals do you want to see?? - 01/12/10 02:03 AM
I put the original back up after J.Dales post
Posted By: 2coach Re: Which Derby finals do you want to see?? - 01/12/10 03:04 AM
Wow, Dean if this is what you wrote in the past, about the kid from TOHK, then you have really had a change of heart. No matter who you are, what you have done for the sport, how good you are. There is no room for bad sportsmanship.




Mike Rodriguez
Originally Posted By: andrew p hurla
I just watched the 152 lb match and the only comment I want to make is on the actual wrestling. Those are 2 of Kansas' best this year and there was some good scrambles in that match, but does anyone agree that in the neutral position they stood straight up and either adjusted their headgear or just took a step back a little too much? Almost every wrestling match has a little of the standing straight up headgear-adjustment routine but I think coaches should try to minimize that as much as possible and at least get the wrestlers to stay in a decent stance while they adjust the headgear. Both could have capitalized on the other being out of position but they would both do it at the same time. I'm not trying to belittle anyone's performance but I do think this is a common problem in wrestling and I would like to hear some other thoughts on this.


Agreed! Make'm wrestle all the time! Too much standing around, hanging on heads. . .

If we want our sport to grow in terms of new fans/wrestlers, than we have to make it more exciting. Watch those Cheesehead finals that Will posted. Those refs kept the action moving there!

I remember a kid I was coaching in the state finals back in MO in the late 80's - early 90's (Brett Stewart). To start the match, POW, low single just as soon as the whistle blew. Later back in the neutral position with only about 5 seconds left, instead of the usual 'walk around until time expires' -- POW! Another low single TD right off the whistle. Finished the match with a double grapevine - PIN! Now that was EXCITING!
Originally Posted By: 2coach
Wow, Dean if this is what you wrote in the past, about the kid from TOHK, then you have really had a change of heart. No matter who you are, what you have done for the sport, how good you are. There is no room for bad sportsmanship.




Mike Rodriguez


You lost me Mike. What did I write in the past about the kid from TOHK?

I very well may be guilty of the sin of being a hypocrite. Just about any one that is honest with themselves, knows they have inconsistencies within themselves.

I don't approve bad sportsmanship. In a perfect world it would never happen. But, we are fallen creatures in a fallen world. Bad sportsmanship is a mistake. Are we all not guilty of committing mistakes on a DAILY basis? Acts of omission as well as commission?
Posted By: Beeson Re: Which Derby finals do you want to see?? - 01/12/10 12:31 PM
Originally Posted By: andrew p hurla
but does anyone agree that in the neutral position they stood straight up and either adjusted their headgear or just took a step back a little too much? Almost every wrestling match has a little of the standing straight up headgear-adjustment routine but I think coaches should try to minimize that as much as possible and at least get the wrestlers to stay in a decent stance while they adjust the headgear. Both could have capitalized on the other being out of position but they would both do it at the same time. I'm not trying to belittle anyone's performance but I do think this is a common problem in wrestling and I would like to hear some other thoughts on this.


I agree 100%. It was not just these two that wrestled like that, almost every other wrestler in the finals did. I'll get corny for a minute, but nobody looked like they had "the eye of the tiger." I would love to see two wrestlers really go at it, but I don't know how you teach that.
Posted By: HEADUP Re: Which Derby finals do you want to see?? - 01/12/10 12:38 PM
someone earlier talked like they would like to see some of these matches on flo. i didn't see any big time scrambles in any matches, like i expected. i agree with beeson, no eye of the tiger, no going for the kill. i'm not sure whether i saw two guys going for a win, or two guys trying not to lose. anyway it's early in the season, the matches will get better as we get closer to feb.
Posted By: J. Dale Re: Which Derby finals do you want to see?? - 01/12/10 12:40 PM
But isn't this the reason that the semi's are usually better in big tourny's like this. Everyone is going all out to get to the finals then they get cautious in the finals not wanting to lose. It's been that way for years and probably won't change.
Originally Posted By: Beeson
Originally Posted By: andrew p hurla
but does anyone agree that in the neutral position they stood straight up and either adjusted their headgear or just took a step back a little too much? Almost every wrestling match has a little of the standing straight up headgear-adjustment routine but I think coaches should try to minimize that as much as possible and at least get the wrestlers to stay in a decent stance while they adjust the headgear. Both could have capitalized on the other being out of position but they would both do it at the same time. I'm not trying to belittle anyone's performance but I do think this is a common problem in wrestling and I would like to hear some other thoughts on this.


I agree 100%. It was not just these two that wrestled like that, almost every other wrestler in the finals did. I'll get corny for a minute, but nobody looked like they had "the eye of the tiger." I would love to see two wrestlers really go at it, but I don't know how you teach that.


Good point. Do you see more 'eye of the tiger' intensity in the semi's and then they get to caution in the finals and wrestling in a style that says, "i don't want to lose" rather than in a style that says "I want TO WIN"?

Maybe one way of teaching it is to watch tape of how this 'wrestling not to lose' style, usually backfires -- and then supplement that with matches were at least one has 'the eye' wither they win or lose. Good question on how to teach it.

Watch a lot of the Metcalf/Caldwell match and the matches prior to it where the commentators said stupid things like, "Coming up soon -- UNDEFEATED and HODGE trophy winner Brent Metcalf who is all most guaranteed to win his title tonight..." Yeah, only problem is someone forgot to tell Caldwell that . . .

Or, go back even further. Teach them about 181-0 Gable vs. Owings (sp). You can watch the match on youtube.

Wrestle to WIN. Not to lose. Aggression pays off. Too much defense will catch up with you and sooner or later you will become toast.

I don't know. Those are just some thoughts.

I hope somebody has the 'magic formula' so we can present it to all so these finals will be more dynamite rather than a chess match.
A FINAL additional video of the Cokeley/Blair match!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cGNRd5WG2bA
Posted By: J. Dale Re: Which Derby finals do you want to see?? - 01/12/10 04:46 PM
That's the best shot of what happened yet. CLEARLY counted one at 9:57
Posted By: badbo Re: Which Derby finals do you want to see?? - 01/12/10 05:48 PM
The problem all stems from the fact it was clearly too cold to have this tournament in the first place. The referee had gotten too cold on the way to the tournament and was still feeling the effects of frostbite to his feet. This caused him to loose his balance at the 9:57 mark of the match and he had to swing his arm to keep his balance and keep from falling. To the untrained eye this could look like he was counting back points, which would indicate a loss of control, but those of us from the "P" club schools can clearly see what happens when you try to preform when it's too cold.

Oddly the wrestlers seem to preform fine. A great wrestling match. Both are better off and apparently more able to shake off the deathly cold than a middle aged referee. Forget about what happened after the match. Emotions took over. Not unexpected when you put that much into it.
Originally Posted By: badbo
The problem all stems from the fact it was clearly too cold to have this tournament in the first place. The referee had gotten too cold on the way to the tournament and was still feeling the effects of frostbite to his feet. This caused him to loose his balance at the 9:57 mark of the match and he had to swing his arm to keep his balance and keep from falling. To the untrained eye this could look like he was counting back points, which would indicate a loss of control, but those of us from the "P" club schools can clearly see what happens when you try to preform when it's too cold.

Oddly the wrestlers seem to preform fine. A great wrestling match. Both are better off and apparently more able to shake off the deathly cold than a middle aged referee. Forget about what happened after the match. Emotions took over. Not unexpected when you put that much into it.


Very funny and insightful all at the same time. That was great! I agree. Thanks!
Originally Posted By: badbo
The problem all stems from the fact it was clearly too cold to have this tournament in the first place. The referee had gotten too cold on the way to the tournament and was still feeling the effects of frostbite to his feet. This caused him to loose his balance at the 9:57 mark of the match and he had to swing his arm to keep his balance and keep from falling. To the untrained eye this could look like he was counting back points, which would indicate a loss of control, but those of us from the "P" club schools can clearly see what happens when you try to preform when it's too cold.

Oddly the wrestlers seem to preform fine. A great wrestling match. Both are better off and apparently more able to shake off the deathly cold than a middle aged referee. Forget about what happened after the match. Emotions took over. Not unexpected when you put that much into it.


The above gets my vote for best post of the decade! ;-)
Posted By: HEADUP Re: Which Derby finals do you want to see?? - 01/12/10 06:21 PM
Originally Posted By: Chief Renegade
A FINAL additional video of the Cokeley/Blair match!



I still see a 2 point reversal!!! That's FINAL. It's just too bad that it doesn't mean spit, what i think. Cold or not, I think the flailing of the arms, is just the referee's running style. It looks like A older, less intoxicated version of CAPTAIN JACK SPARROW.

ENGLISH 101: the use of the word a instead of an, is correct in this case, because older, and less intoxicated are adjectives to describe the noun version. you wouldn't say AN version.

Sorry guys money is tight around my house. I will have to charge you for the English lesson today. I will charge each of you a minute of your time. Sorry, unfortunately there are no refunds and you cannot take it back. Look at it this way you are possibly smarter for reading this post. Glad I could help.
Posted By: J. Dale Re: Which Derby finals do you want to see?? - 01/12/10 06:29 PM
Very good point badbo. But ponder this. Isn't society in general one huge "P" club these days?
Originally Posted By: suckerpunch


ENGLISH 101: the use of the word a instead of an, is correct in this case, because older, and less intoxicated are adjectives to describe the noun version. you wouldn't say AN version.


Can you cite a reference for this? Off the top of my head I am going to disagree with you. I will search for a reference however.
Posted By: 2coach Re: Which Derby finals do you want to see?? - 01/12/10 06:42 PM
I was referring to the post that windjammer posted. It is on page 8.
Check out the twister video www.twisterwrestling.com - learn the move and that match would of been over first period.
Posted By: Beeson Re: Which Derby finals do you want to see?? - 01/12/10 07:18 PM
I would have to disagree...those two are too good to get caught in a move like that.
He should have ran a headlock. Certain pin.
Guys, that last youtube link of Cokeley/Blair proves two things. Blair lost control and Herman counted. That angle removes all doubt.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cGNRd5WG2bA


Beeson, you have to agree after seeing this angle.
Posted By: irionman Re: Which Derby finals do you want to see?? - 01/13/10 07:41 AM
Originally Posted By: Jim Gaither
Originally Posted By: suckerpunch


ENGLISH 101: the use of the word a instead of an, is correct in this case, because older, and less intoxicated are adjectives to describe the noun version. you wouldn't say AN version.


Can you cite a reference for this? Off the top of my head I am going to disagree with you. I will search for a reference however.


I think I agree with Jim, but I never paid attention in English 101 =/
Posted By: HEADUP Re: Which Derby finals do you want to see?? - 01/13/10 12:33 PM
Originally Posted By: irionman
Originally Posted By: Jim Gaither
Originally Posted By: suckerpunch


ENGLISH 101: the use of the word a instead of an, is correct in this case, because older, and less intoxicated are adjectives to describe the noun version. you wouldn't say AN version.


Can you cite a reference for this? Off the top of my head I am going to disagree with you. I will search for a reference however.


I think I agree with Jim, but I never paid attention in English 101 =/


It's correct English, it sounds weird because it's not how we speak. Trust me it's correct. Don't take it too, seriously I was only joking.
I understand you are just joking around but if there is another arcane English rule I am not aware of I want to know it.

My reason for disagreeing is that the use of a or an depends on the word that follows it. If the word begins in a vowel "sound" you use an. If it is a consanant "sound" you use a. I could not find any reference where it mattered if the word was an adjective or a noun. So, let me know where I can find the rule you mention. Just for curiosity sake. wink

Edit: suckerpunch, I sent you a PM so we don't have to clutter the boards with non-wrestling junk. smirk
Posted By: Beeson Re: Which Derby finals do you want to see?? - 01/13/10 03:43 PM
Originally Posted By: andrew p hurla
Regardless, you know you're a pretty good wrestler when there's multiple angles for your finals match!


Good Point! The Official did not have the advantage of multiple angles.
Posted By: HEADUP Re: Which Derby finals do you want to see?? - 01/13/10 03:57 PM
Originally Posted By: Beeson


Good Point! The Official did not have the advantage of multiple angles.


right, that's what i have said, i watched it three time before i would even comment. if i was there live it would have depended on who i was standing next to. a suckerpunch always comes from left field you know.
Posted By: Thompson Re: Which Derby finals do you want to see?? - 01/13/10 03:58 PM
I do no think this removes all doubt. That was a fast moving exchange and the referee did a great job. Why take away the value of a hard fought win by rehashing this so much? Both wrestlers are very talented and the match was very even. Blair won this time. I am sure that Cokeley is ready for more of these types of matchups wherever he can find them as he obviously seeks out the best competition. He is one heck of a competitor as is Blair.
Posted By: doug747 Re: Which Derby finals do you want to see?? - 01/13/10 07:44 PM
I've been trying to keep my mouth shut since I really admire both of these kids and their families. I'll give a few things to ponder:

How many times do you see a referee wave something off? In an instant the ref can go from seeing back points to seeing no control, and can wave off whatever he started to do. Correct me if I am wrong.

Everyone in the gym except for Cade, VC fans, and his family, would have loved to have seen a one point for escape, and have that thing go another period!! Though it would have been Cade's choice in that final period, had it gone that route. I have no doubt in my mind that Cokeley didn't have control for 2, but can see where there could have been 1 escape awarded. It is in the eye of the beholder I guess.

Would we all have liked to have seen a little better sportsmanship, yes. Not to make excuses, but every Sunday you see worse sportsmanship from NFL guys, for something as little as 3 yard gain, a broken up pass play, or many other minor things as the game goes on. I love the fire that both of these kids have, just need to harness it a bit.

Congrats to both kids for making this match happen.

Congrats to Chase Nitcher and Taylor Moeder for making that match happen as well. Two more great warriors that Kansas should be proud of.
Posted By: nastyway Re: Which Derby finals do you want to see?? - 01/14/10 01:44 AM
scoreboard
Posted By: doug747 Re: Which Derby finals do you want to see?? - 01/14/10 03:24 AM
Huh? you lost me
Posted By: Beeson Re: Which Derby finals do you want to see?? - 01/14/10 03:28 AM
He's being an arse!
Posted By: pokeno Re: Which Derby finals do you want to see?? - 01/14/10 03:37 AM
Aren't both wrestlers due at the Bobcat Classic this weekend? Maybe there will be a rematch...
Posted By: irionman Re: Which Derby finals do you want to see?? - 01/14/10 05:25 AM
Isn't this being talked about in two different threads now? Really, I wish it'd be left alone. Crap happens. This is a new week and it brings more good matches.
Posted By: nastyway Re: Which Derby finals do you want to see?? - 01/14/10 12:00 PM
thank you for catching that beeson
Posted By: doug747 Re: Which Derby finals do you want to see?? - 01/14/10 08:28 PM
I guess I am too dumb to get it
http://www.examiner.com/x-7334-College-Wrestling-Examiner~y2010m1d14-Is-sportsmanship-a-relic-of-the-past
Originally Posted By: doug747
Huh? you lost me


Maybe he means it is over and there is nothing we can do about it know. We have milked all potential knowledge out of it so lets drop it and move on.

Was that your point nasty? If so, I agree.
Originally Posted By: doug747
I guess I am too dumb to get it


Ah, don't beat yourself up. Just open a dictionary. My favorite is dictionary.com

I was not aware of Beeson's unique word either:

Word Origin & History

arse
"buttocks," O.E. ærs "tail, rump," from P.Gmc. *arsoz (cf. O.N. ars, M.Du. ærs, Ger. Arsch "buttock"), cognate with Gk. orros "tail, rump, base of the spine," Hittite arrash, Arm. or "buttock," O.Ir. err "tail." Arse-hole first attested c.1400 as arce-hoole. Arsy-versy "backside foremost" first attested 1539.
Online Etymology Dictionary, © 2001 Douglas Harper
Cite This Source
Originally Posted By: sportsfan02
http://www.examiner.com/x-7334-College-Wrestling-Examiner~y2010m1d14-Is-sportsmanship-a-relic-of-the-past


Cool article/site. Good points. Thanks for sharing. I guess society in general has become more hostile. That is sad.

But hey! We all learned from this! And, at the Bobcat and hence forth - we are going to start a new Kansas REVOLUTION of the best sportsmanship this country has ever seen!

He--, we might even start a flower presentation prior to each match were opponents exchanges roses prior to grappling (Relax, that was a joke).

But truly, a revolution in sportsmanship would be refreshing. However, we are not robots and this is an intense, individual sport - so again, occasionally lapses will continue to occur. If we can lessen them a bit, then we have done a good thing.
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