Kansas Wrestling
http://www.flowrestling.org/videos/speak...ller-iowa-state

I want to say that I was very appreciative of the officials at Derby taking the time to go on the mat with me during the break and have a discussion about a rule in wrestling. In the past it has been very difficult for some officials to open up and have these types of discussions, but these officials put their pride aside to discuss the move. I wanted to post the situation and see what others thought as well.

Daniel Deshazer gets a takedown where the wrestlers leg was trapped high. We all know that the wrestler has a certain amount of time to let the trapped leg down before a stall call will be awarded. However, we have been working a new turn from this position that I first saw on Flow wrestling that Brent Metcalf used in the Iowa v. Iowa State dual.

Daniel was hit for stalling for not letting the leg go, however, he had put both of his legs in, scissored the legs and was working a whip to a cross face to turn him. During the match I stated to the official that I did not believe this was a stall call as we are working a turn from there and not just riding. Daniel also had a leg in as well and was using the move to make action. He said he had never seen that before and wanted to discuss it later and we did. He was very easy to work with and I believe it was a growing point for both of us.

The move happens at around 4:11 in the video above. Metcalf is allowed to keep the foot locked for over 20 seconds because he is working a turn.

Daniel was in the exact same position and working the exact same thing except he hit the turn a lot faster and was trying to reset and hit it again when he was hit for stalling. I just wanted to put this video out there to see that this turn is out there and being used in college and upper level competition. I call it a Metcalf actually when I teach it. Tell me what you guys think.

Mr. Wright, Richards, Hernandez, Alley... Thanks for taking the time to discuss this with me. If you see this, you might be able to get a better visual of what I was talking about.

Coach Church
great deal, a step forward for all involved, i too noticed this turn and have been working on it with some of the advanced kids in our club.
After watching this match id bet he deserved the stalling call.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kyFv6lcHKn8
Originally Posted By: lucas b baker
After watching this match id bet he deserved the stalling call.

Wow,how many shots did the other kid take during the match? One legit shot in three periods and Deshazer was the one stalling?
Maybe you need help watching this match let me break it down for you.
watch the first 44 seconds he did nothing at all, no movement no angles did not try to work anything at all.

The official restarts the match at 1:14 he does not move at all for 4 seconds just frozen.

At 2:03 He looks at his coach instead of pursuing after an escape.

2:05 to 2:09 frozen again

2:21 he stands frozen on the mat until 2:40
3:07 walking backwards
3:09 walking backwards
3:12 walking backwards
3.15 now just stepping backwards
3:22 still waling backwards
3:30 takes three steps back and stands up
3:57 takes 5 steps toward his coach while the official is waiting on him.
4:05 frozen on whistle for 3 seconds
4:11 to 4:17 walking backwards
4:38 frozen for 4 secs off whistle
4:56 walking backwards
4:57 to 5:02 frozen
5:03 walking backwards
6:08 official stops match for out of bound
6:13 Lamar at the line waiting
6:19 makes it back to the line
6:20 to 6:24 stands frozen
6:25 to 6:30 fleeing the mat
6:38 to 6:42 off the whistle frozen
6:43 6 short steps backwards
6:48 stands up and takes 3 steps backwards
6:53 take 6 more steps backwards
7:22 frozen off the whistle
7:26 two steps backwards

The match ended by a point Deshazer won. With out a single warning for stalling. He was frozen off of every whistle he took more steps backwards than Michael Jackson in the 90s and did not even get a warning. Was very slow to get back to every line. In the finals at one of the Best Tournys in the state against an undefeated wrestler the officials should call it better than that!!!!!!!!!!!
Standing in the middle of the mat while the other wrestler bounces around five feet away without engaging you is not stalling!Nice breakdown but how many takedowns were attempted by the other wrestler? How many times did Deshazer drive the other wrestler off the edge of the mat looking for a takedown?

Jason Murdock
Confident wrestlers don't move their feet. They are daring their opponent to shoot. Napier…
lucas b baker you have a lot to learn.
Originally Posted By: hit it hard!
Confident wrestlers don't move their feet. They are daring their opponent to shoot. Napier…
lucas b baker you have a lot to learn.


I don't necessarily agree that good wrestlers don't move on their feet. I do agree that Mr. Baker has a lot to learn. This was not a very exciting match, but it was not because Deshazer was stalling. There were two different wrestling (body) styles out there that made it difficult for either one to wrestle very effectively. I don't think either was stalling, two good wrestlers that stayed in good position.
Originally Posted By: hit it hard!
Confident wrestlers don't move their feet. They are daring their opponent to shoot. Napier…
lucas b baker you have a lot to learn.


Maybe not. I saw the match live. I was disappointed. I wanted both of them to shot more. And, the few times they did shoot - it was EXCITING. The quickness of DD is unbelievable! Had me believing he could have gotten 10 TD's if he merely would have take the shots rather than stand around as Baker broke down above. I wish the ref would have hit BOTH the wrestlers for stalling SEVERAL times if need be to simply get them to wrestle, rather than dance. I went to watch wrestling, not dancing. Again, see Will's Cheesehead Finals posted on this forum. Tons of wrestling. Sometimes forced by the refs MAKING them wrestle or they got hit with much deserved stalling calls. If we want to 'sell tickets' and keep our great sport alive - then encourage more ACTION. I pay to see wrestling. Not a chess match or dancing. No disrespect to the two wrestlers involved. They could both kick my old tail, any time, any day, any place. But, they are good and I just wish they would open up and put the 'pedal to the floor'. Maybe the semis were more exciting. Maybe I'll go to those instead next year . . .

To refute your 'good wrestlers do a lot of standing around' idea, watch Napier vs. Maple on youtube. Tons of movement. Tons of excitement.

Finally, yes Beesom - I agree to some extent and see your point. Can staying in 'good position' and being 'too cautious/defensive' be two different things?

Again, no disrepect to the wrestlers. It just kind of reminded me of a 9 inning baseball game. 5 minutes of action 'packed into' a three hour game. I viewed this match as 15 seconds of action, packed into a 7 min plus match. I just wanted/expected to see more action. Oh well, maybe next time.
Originally Posted By: hit it hard!
Confident wrestlers don't move their feet. They are daring their opponent to shoot. Napier…
lucas b baker you have a lot to learn.


Tell you what I am from Abilene Kansas Sate Champs 98 and 99 we took ten to sate and 9 of of placed. We had 5 guys from that team go to college and wrestle including myself. 3 of them were all americans several times. My Dad has been a wrestling coach since 1987. Please tell me what i have left to learn?
Originally Posted By: hit it hard!
Confident wrestlers don't move their feet. They are daring their opponent to shoot. Napier…
lucas b baker you have a lot to learn.


please watch this confident wrestler move his feet the entire match.

http://www.flowrestling.org/videos/speak...ller-iowa-state
Originally Posted By: J Murdock
Standing in the middle of the mat while the other wrestler bounces around five feet away without engaging you is not stalling!Nice breakdown but how many takedowns were attempted by the other wrestler? How many times did Deshazer drive the other wrestler off the edge of the mat looking for a takedown?

Jason Murdock

Jason clearly he should have a a warning or two. You can keep walking backwards. If he had a good coach he would light a fire under this kids but and make him work. I agree when he tried he looked great. But not moving at all off of every Wistle is just plain Stalling.
Originally Posted By: lucas b baker
Originally Posted By: J Murdock
Standing in the middle of the mat while the other wrestler bounces around five feet away without engaging you is not stalling!Nice breakdown but how many takedowns were attempted by the other wrestler? How many times did Deshazer drive the other wrestler off the edge of the mat looking for a takedown?

Jason Murdock

Jason clearly he should have a a warning or two. You can keep walking backwards. If he had a good coach he would light a fire under this kids but and make him work. I agree when he tried he looked great. But not moving at all off of every Wistle is just plain Stalling.


So the guy who coached Maple, who is starting at OU as a freshman, and Nelson, who is tearing through juco wrestling as a freshman, is not a good coach?? Interesting conclusion. . . What a great argument confused
Lucas, apparently you need to learn how to make an unbiased call. The official didn't see it as stalling. Coach Church was talking about a totally different scenario on stalling. You are the only one that has a problem with the match. In my opinion the official would have had to call stalling on both wrestlers, not just one. Look at it objectively.
Whose not a good coach?
Stalling on both wrestlers. Coach Church is an excellent coach is my two cents worth.
Coach, or anyone, at what time mark does that "Metcalf" action occur in the Derby match? Maybe I'm not watching the right video. (I see now it wasn't in the finals, never mind.)

As you know, in high school, by rule, if your opponent is broken down on the mat you can only hold the heel to the butt for 5 seconds. College doesn't have that rule so if you are going to use "the Metcalf" you've got to be pretty quick or you are going to be running into the 5 second rule. I assume that's what the refs told you or something similar.

Originally Posted By: hit it hard!
Confident wrestlers don't move their feet. They are daring their opponent to shoot. Napier…
lucas b baker you have a lot to learn.
you have obviously never watched Napier he never stops moving his feet
I was coached Hustle. Taking 8 seconds to get back to line would have cost My team 3 man rolls on Monday. Not moving off the whistle would of cost my team 3 man rolls. When he moved he looked like a stud. When the Whistle Blew he looked like a statue. If i only took one shot in the first period and stalled the rest of the match.

I know that the OP has nothing to do with what I am talking about. I just thought it was funny this guy was complaining about a Stalling call. When his kid did nothing for 3 periods the same tourny.

The move in the video is real Slick i wish i knew it ten years ago. And the set up for the half a cement job is pretty slick too. But fact is he cant get it done in 5 seconds. So i would try to get the kid to show a little more work ethic so he can go to college and try that move.

Bottom Line this Offical was ready to go home. But a kid that stnads Frozen off the Whistle every single time and spends half the match walking backwords should have been Warned at least once.
Your right I have been watching College wrestlig since 2001 and NEVER have I seen a Kid just stand there and wait.

He wrestles like a Heavy Wt at 125.
Two different wrestling styles, doesn't make one wrong or right, just different. He is the number one ranked kid all class, he must know how to wrestle, and his style must be working. I just don't see the same match that you do. Just curious, how did you do in High School and College? Sounds like sour grapes to me.
Again when you have the lead in the match and you are standing center circle while the other wrestler does not attempt to engage, you are not stalling.I always tell kids when you are behind it's your job to make something happen if you wanna win the match , not the guy thats winning!

Jason Murdock
Originally Posted By: lucas b baker
Your right I have been watching College wrestlig since 2001 and NEVER have I seen a Kid just stand there and wait.

He wrestles like a Heavy Wt at 125.


You will never see a heavy wt shot a takedown or do a stand up as fast as DD. That dude is faster than lighten WHEN he wants to move. Maybe that is part of his strategy? Lull them to sleep and then STRIKE like a COBRA! ;-)
Let me explain something to you and let me make it very clear to you. You have never sat in one of my practices. You have never watched Daniel train nor anybody else on my team train. You have no clue what the philosophy of my program is nor what I teach or try to teach in my program. You have never spoken a word to me and have no clue of what my background as an athlete or coach is. And then you get on here and say that "I can't coach" because you watched one match from one kid who separated his shoulder 5 times in the last year and this was his first tournament of the year???

The move I was inquiring about was in another match, not the finals. I did not complain or tell anybody they were wrong. I was asking. I found out my answer answer form Nigel Isom that it is indeed stalling even if you are trying to turn them as in high school a trapped ankle is stalling and it is not in college.

I apologize for never hearing the name Lucas B. Baker. I apologize for not knowing you were a state champion, All-American, or College National Champion????????

However while my resume is probably not as impressive as yours I am sure since you were on a state championship team and college wrestler you are 10 times the coach/teacher that I can ever hope to be let me put my life on the line for you in this sport.

Started wrestling in the 7th grade
4 X State Qualifier 2 X placer
36-0 Undefeated State Champion in 1997.
"Oh my team was only 2nd in 1995" sorry... one away

I managed to go to college:
Labette Community College 1997-99 (Juco Program)
Fort Hays State 1999-2000 (Division II program)
Carson-Newman College 2000-2003 (Division II program)
750% winning in college (sorry I was not as good as Lucas Baker)

Coaching Career:
2 year assistant at Wichita South
2 year head coach at Wichita South High School
**2006 Team State Runner-ups)
**2006 KWCA 6A Coach of the year
**2007 Team 8th place... Only qualified 4 and got 3 in the finals.
1 year assistant at Wichita Heights
2 year Head Coach at Wichita Heights
**2009 4th Place team finish
**2009 GWAL Champions 8-0 Dual record / Tournament Champs
**First team to beat Bishop Carroll in over 8 years and 105 dual win streak was snapped.
**Currently 5-0 in the league
**Team currently ranked in the top 10 in the state in 6A.
Kansas National Team Coach 2007-2009...

If anybody else can think of anything let me know but I am sure my resume is not near the level of Lucas B. Baker.....

I have a phone number and an email address if you would like to discuss this any further...

And yes, Kendric Maple and Chase Nelson are my athletes along with Tim Elliott 4 X All-American and National Champion.....

Coach Church
Yep. See, I told ya he was an excellent coach!

;-)

Maybe Lucas and you can wrestle sometime?!?

LOL . . .
Church, everyone knows you dont know anything about wrestling you are only involved in this sport to yell at refs.
That's a nice wrestling resume Church. But it doesn't hold a candle to my middle school girls volleyball and now girls basketball coaching resume. I can also write a mean leadership paper, so quit braggin'.

It's too bad that Coach Christner's quiet confidence and tremendous character didn't rub off on Mr. Baker during that 98 and 99 season.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7bbj7hRzHmI

This is a nice move!
I was wondering when you were going to get on here.
Who me?
Nice reply coach show your true class!
I find it really funny an Abilene Wrestler from my team. Had to tell you the Rules but you know every thing about wrestling dont you!
Originally Posted By: Jason Halling
That's a nice wrestling resume Church. But it doesn't hold a candle to my middle school girls volleyball and now girls basketball coaching resume. I can also write a mean leadership paper, so quit braggin'.

It's too bad that Coach Christner's quiet confidence and tremendous character didn't rub off on Mr. Baker during that 98 and 99 season.


Christner's work ethic rubbed off on me. Thats why I am on here complaining about a kid that did nothing but stall the entire match.
AND I have a phone number and A home address if you like to discuss this anymore!!!
I have been informed that Lucas is a half brother of Bret Lamar and now I understand... Just a guy, biased guy upset about a loss... I have been told over and over again to not reply to people on this board as sometimes the intelligence level is just too low especially wrestling IQ.

hahahahahahaha! Now if I said I knew everything about the rules I would not of been on here asking a question trying to better myself as I am and always will be a student of the game. Maybe if I keep learning I will know everything like Lucas Baker... I beg you to write a book and I promise you I will read it cover to cover!!!

Complain all you want... we took the shot that got the take-down...Bret is a tough kid who I really liked. I thought he had great enthusiasm after his big win over Jones and a 3-2 loss to someone of Daniel's caliber is tough for some to swallow but should motivate both athletes too train harder than before.

Lucas Baker...Like I said, I don't know you and now I have no desire to know you. Good luck in your pursuits to define the word stalling for high school wrestling. While you are doing that... I'll work on making my athletes acceptable for you to watch and judge!!! Then all of those DI letters those kids are already receiving will double because of your motivating me to make them better!!!!!

P.S. I just might take you up on that address as I just received a new Garmin for Christmas!! I will be able to drive right to your front door. How sweet is that....However, if you ever see me out and about at a tournament feel free to tap me on the shoulder and introduce yourself as I wont' recognize you as I have no clue who you are. I am a real friendly guy...

Church
Please dont question my wrestling IQ im just fine, you are the one wasting time teaching your kid a move he cant use. Who's intelligence level is just too low?

I assure I have no idea who you are either and dont care!

If you think it is ok to take your time to get back to the center of the mat. You must be Lazy!!

If you think it is ok to stand frozen on the whistle. I have no idea how you became a coach.

In the 20 years I have been around this sport I have never seen a kid just stand there.

My third place match at state my senior year I was up by a point managed to gramby out of a take down and came up ten foot away from the kid I was wrestling. My coach stood up and yelled at me GET OVER THERE!!! So I jumped about 5 feet forward tying up with the guy when I Landed and hitting a move that I know as the Jewish headlock to pin the kid.

My point is hustle you dont make the official wait because your taking your sweet time to get back to the center.

D1 letters with 3 matches wrestled?
I sent him my address I will post the video when he shows up.
Taken from the 2009 rule book
Passivity (stalling) is the worst enemy of wrestling. Any attempt to AVOID
WRESTLING — by blocking, by pushing, by going out of bounds, by “playing the
edge”.
Daniel Deashazer: 3 X Fargo All-American.... State Champion and Runner-up.... Mutliple other National Championships... that's how you get DI letters...

I am for sure done with this arguement when a dudes example is his 3rd place match his senior year... LET THE PAST GO... YOUR CAREER IS OVER hahahahahahaha!

I sure was expecting more...

Lucas Baker... Have a blessed day...
Sorry to disappoint you Mr two time state placer. I also wrestled at LCCC.

When I stated my wrestling history it was because someone said I have a lot to learn. I was not comparing it to anyone just letting him know I have been around the block

If you are teaching your kids to be lazy and take their time to get back to center of the mat and stand completely frozen off the whistle then you should be fired.
These are my thoughts and my thoughts alone. I have not talked to my Dad of Lil Brother about this match. Brett is a great kid. I watched the match and could not believe the kid was not called for stalling.

So i jumped on the USAWKS website to see if anyone else was complaining about the officials in the derby tourny. Which they were. To my surprise the first message was the coach of the kid that just stalled the entire match complaining about a stalling call.
Originally Posted By: Lucas Baker
These are my thoughts and my thoughts alone. I have not talked to my Dad of Lil Brother about this match. Brett is a great kid. I watched the match and could not believe the kid was not called for stalling.

So i jumped on the USAWKS website to see if anyone else was complaining about the officials in the derby tourny. Which they were. To my surprise the first message was the coach of the kid that just stalled the entire match complaining about a stalling call.


this is the only intelligent sounding post you have made. look on other threads of the forum there are questions about how ks officials call stalling, vs other states, get to those and plead your case. you aren't going to get paid much credit when you continue to attack coach church, and mr deshazer. i was the first to read/ respond to coach church's thread, and didn't believe he was complaining at all, he was simply asking about a certain move, to determine whether or not to continue teaching it. i don't think anyone on here cares how many years you have wrestled or anything else, that's just plain ridiculous, and childish. i will leave you with some advice: if you want respect treat others with respect. by the way i would have warned both for stalling, and if things didn't improve they would have both lost points. i only ref kids tourneys, but if they are not working for a takedown, they are getting warned. have a great day.
this has got to be one of the funniest threads i read in a while!
I guess I need to clear one more thin up. I am not attacking Deshazer!! When he moved he was lighting fast, I would love to see him wrestle with a fire under his ass it would be a great show.

As far as people caring how many years I wrestled. I only stated that because Hit it Hard a Member of the forum for less than a year with 23 post is telling me I have a lot to learn.

Coach Church went off and told me his life story. I was not even talking to him. He replied like you said in a just plain ridiculous, and childish manner.
Sating things like "I apologize for never hearing the name Lucas B. Baker. I apologize for not knowing you were a state champion, All-American, or College National Champion????????"
I never said I was any of those comments. He also said "However while my resume is probably not as impressive as yours I am sure since you were on a state championship team and college wrestler you are 10 times the coach/teacher that I can ever hope to be let me put my life on the line for you in this sport." Whats with the whole life on the line thing? Just like you said just plain ridiculous, and childish.

Then there was this comment
I managed to go to college:
"Labette Community College 1997-99 (Juco Program)
Fort Hays State 1999-2000 (Division II program)
Carson-Newman College 2000-2003 (Division II program)
750% winning in college (sorry I was not as good as Lucas Baker)"
Did I ever say I was better than him.
For some reason he was assuming I did not go to college. When actually we both went to the same juco. Like you said just plain ridiculous, and childish.

He also said "but I am sure my resume is not near the level of Lucas B. Baker" one last time just plain ridiculous, and childish.

I completely understand that this Post had nothing to do with the Derby Match. Once again I watched the match was upset so i jumped on the forum to see if anyone else was complaining about the officials which they were 152lb finals caused a big stir and one guy said they should never be asked to return. So I am not alone. The first post I saw was Stall Call at Derby Naturlay I click on it. And saw the kids name that just stalled the entire match against my Lil brother.

The official should of made the kids work harder. He should warned Deshazer for stepping backwards and standing frozen off the whistle. When he was still doing it in the third period he should of awarded one point. And make the kids work for the match.
I asked Nigel to Look at the match and tell me what he thinks. I will respect his Professional Opinion as I have only heard good things about his officiating.
Wish I could find the dead horse avatar and figure out how to add it to this thread.
Originally Posted By: Lucas Baker
After watching this match id bet he deserved the stalling call.


#1 not too bad, but nothing to do with the original thread.
Originally Posted By: Lucas Baker
Maybe you need help watching this match let me break it down for you.
watch the first 44 seconds he did nothing at all, no movement no angles did not try to work anything at all.





The match ended by a point Deshazer won. With out a single warning for stalling. He was frozen off of every whistle he took more steps backwards than Michael Jackson in the 90s and did not even get a warning. Was very slow to get back to every line. In the finals at one of the Best Tournys in the state against an undefeated wrestler the officials should call it better than that!!!!!!!!!!!


#2 comparison to the king of pop, is over the top. not to mention the moon walk was in the 80s. i erased all the obsessive compulsive parts.
Originally Posted By: Lucas Baker
[quote=hit it hard!] Please tell me what i have left to learn?


#3 childish! wrestling is a constant learning experience, cael sanders was undefeated in ncaa, his first quote when he wrestled internationally "i've got a lot to learn"
Originally Posted By: Lucas Baker
Originally Posted By: hit it hard!
Confident wrestlers don't move their feet. They are daring their opponent to shoot. Napier…
lucas b baker you have a lot to learn.


please watch this confident wrestler move his feet the entire match.

http://www.flowrestling.org/videos/speak...ller-iowa-state

#4 attacking a hs kids confidence, it's deshazer's style, so what, find a way to beat it.
Originally Posted By: Lucas Baker
If he had a good coach he would light a fire under this kids but and make him work.


#5 attacking coach church. how do you know how he coaches?
Originally Posted By: Lucas Baker
When the Whistle Blew he looked like a statue. If i only took one shot in the first period and stalled the rest of the match.

I know that the OP has nothing to do with what I am talking about. I just thought it was funny this guy was complaining about a Stalling call. When his kid did nothing for 3 periods the same tourny.

But fact is he cant get it done in 5 seconds. So i would try to get the kid to show a little more work ethic so he can go to college and try that move.

Bottom Line this Offical was ready to go home. But a kid that stnads Frozen off the Whistle every single time and spends half the match walking backwords should have been Warned at least once.



#6 coach church still hasn't responded, yet.
Originally Posted By: Lucas Baker
Your right I have been watching College wrestlig since 2001 and NEVER have I seen a Kid just stand there and wait.

He wrestles like a Heavy Wt at 125.


#7 still not attacking? come on.
Seriously Baker give it a rest. Lamar did nothing after the one shot he took the entire match , if you have a wrestler standing still in the middle of the mat it should be pretty easy to get that takedown shouldn't it? I could see you complaining if Lamar was pushing the action, but he didn't!

Jason Murdock
coach church responded pretty unbecoming, and you can hear the regret in his posts. but there is serious denial in your last post, mr baker. i know you think that deshazer is electric when he HAS to be. if he gave up a couple of stalling points, maybe he would have opened up. maybe he would have beat brett a lot worse. maybe you should let it die. maybe there is something more going on here.
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