Kansas Wrestling
Posted By: Gary Seibel Kansas Proposals - 02/03/10 06:22 PM
It's been very quiet this year. Any proposed changes post 'em here...

High School coaches please post your responses on the Coach's forum.

One note...KSHSAA is unlikely to even SEE proposals that would require a NFHS Rule Change (6 matches, college OB, etc.), let alone vote on them. Please keep your ideas confined to Kansas specifics (Dual State, travel restrictions, etc.)
Posted By: pokeno Re: Kansas Proposals - 02/03/10 08:01 PM
I wish you could ban parents that expect their son to wrestle varsity because he's a senior as opposed to winning the spot!

Anyone else have the parents from hell this year?
Posted By: sportsfan02 Re: Kansas Proposals - 02/03/10 08:22 PM
Originally Posted By: pokeno
Anyone else have the parents from hell this year?

Don't get us started!
Posted By: HEADUP Re: Kansas Proposals - 02/03/10 08:46 PM
dual state, travel, grand state- those are the top three on my wish list.
Posted By: Cokeley Re: Kansas Proposals - 02/03/10 09:45 PM
Explain why we can break away from NFHS rules for weight control but we can't institute our own 6 match limit. It makes SO much sense to be able to run a 16 team tournament in one day. It would save money allowing 4A regionals to be one day events. If we can't have a 6th match at least institute HEADUP's thumb war as a tie breaker! smile

Dual state won't happen unless you give up team state recognition at individual state. (This is how WI accomplished it)

Allow coaches to have contact with wrestlers beginning immediately after season but do not allow mandatory practices then.

8 additional competition points to be used exclusively for weekday (M-Th) dual events. This would bring back the weeknight dual!

Allow wrestlers to compete in independent outside events during periods when KSHSAA prohibits schools from competing. (This is a stupid infringement on freedom to choose.)

Travel (allow one trip beyond the 500 mile limit or give a limit on number of class days allowed to be missed and get rid of the STUPID mileage limit)

Abolish the video recording rule


Allow attendance of clinics and club practices during the season.

Immediately institute official evaluators and a rating system. Mandate it!!!!!
Posted By: REVOLUTION Re: Kansas Proposals - 02/03/10 11:53 PM
Good idea on the offial evaluation, basketball & football have it... However, it maybe self contained inside individual leagues?
Posted By: WillyM Re: Kansas Proposals - 02/05/10 01:13 AM
I want to make a few comments about some of the proposals. This is long and boring but bear with me.

First, let’s don’t forget funding. Everything costs. Public and personal finances are in a tight. People are scared. State funding of schools will probably be reduced, school district budgets have been cut and teacher and support staff have been or will be reduced in many districts. There is a real danger that districts will have to start cutting programs and activities: academic, athletic, band, forensics, etc. In addition, this is not a good time to ask parents to provide more: taxes, booster club support, increased athletic and activity fees, fund raisers, etc. BE CAREFUL WHAT YOU PROPOSE!! You may get just the opposite!

Relax travel restrictions. Where do you want to go? If I understand the KSHSAA ruling, a school team can travel a max of 500 miles from the Kansas State border. A little work with a map, a ruler, and a calculator reveals the following (I understand the rule as 500 straight line miles from Point A—on the State border—to point B in another state):
KC, Ks to Chicago 399 miles
KC, Ks to Minneapolis 423 miles
White Cloud, KS (extreme NE) to Minneapolis 352 miles
Oketo, Ks to Fargo, ND 411 miles
South Haven, Ks (I-35) to Okla City 106 miles
South Haven, Ks (I-35) to Dallas /Fort Worth 437 miles
Elkhart, Ks (extreme SW) to Alberque NM 447 miles
Kanorado, Ks to Denver, CO 164 miles
KC, KS to Indianapolis, IN 487 miles
KC, Ks to Madison, WI 399 miles
NW of St Francis, Ks to Billings, MT 502 miles (may be less with a bigger map and better ruler).

Surely some one can find a quality tournament in these areas.

Again, costs! Who pays for these long excursions? What is a good estimate to send 10 to 12 wrestlers, two or three coaches, and a couple of managers to Minneapolis on a 5 day trip (travel Wednesday, rest and practice Thursday, wrestle Friday and Saturday, travel home on Sunday). Travel: using two district Vans: 2400 miles (2 up and back plus in and around miles) divided by 10 MPG= 240 gallon of gas at $2.60 per gallon=$625. Eight motel room for four nights=32 nights X $100 per room night = $3200. Eats (per Diem) for 14 people for five days (minimum $20 per day per person=14 X $20 X 5 days = $1400. So far we can probably estimate at least $5200—and will probably need more: entry fees, other fees, Gatorade, laundry, etc.
May have to send the school treasurer to keep the books. Additionally, mom and dad will have to fork over at least $100 to $200 per kid for snacks and drinks, tournament Ts, sweats, medals, etc.
For what? So Johnny can tell his grand kids about his big adventure!

Coach contact after season end. Personally cannot agree with this proposal. Kids need a break from their coaches—and coaches need a break from their kids. If anyone thinks a coach can not/will not require his wrestler to attend practice (mandatory or not), is whistling DIXIE! Subtle hints are all it will take and little Johnny will be practicing year round: “if you don’t practice, how do you expect to wrestle next season”. Believev it and see it!! I do not think this rule exists only in Kansas, but in lots of other states.

Outside competition during the season, and allow attendance/participation in club clinics during the high school season. Have to disagree with both of these proposals. During season, the business is HS wrestling—and nothing else. Kid’s need the XMAS break and they do not need club activities during down or open weeks. Besides wrestling, there is academics, some social life, family life, etc. Most HS wrestlers are practicing or wrestling six days a week—give’m a break. Outside wrestling can also lead to serious conflicts for the kid. HS Coach: “if you are doing club wrestling you don’t have your mind on HS wrestling”; Club Coach: “if you are doing HS wrestling you don’t have your mind on club wrestling”. Club wrestlers have eight plus months to participate in club sports!!

State Tournaments. I spent two to three hours today reading the Iowa State HS Activities Association Wrestling Manual, and the Individual and Dual State Tournament Manuals. Must say, did not know those farmers could think and write that well (I can say that because my wife is an Iowa farm girl). They covered everything down to the gnat’s ass!
Their Individual State Tournament is like our Kansas tournaments—with some structure differences due to more schools. They have only three Classes (3A with the 64 biggest schools, 2A with the next biggest 96 schools, and 1A with all others). Hope I am describing this correctly. 3A schools/wrestlers advance to State from 8 district 8 team one day tournaments. 2A and 1A Classes each have sixteen 8 team sectionals (one day tournaments). First and second place sectional bracket finishers advance to one of eight 8 team 1A and 2A District Tournaments. In all classes and weight brackets only the champ and runner up advance to the next tournament level. At State, each class has a 16 team field for a double elimination format. For some reason they use 3 1/2 days to wrestle the State Individual tournament. The classes rotate with only one class on the mats at each 3 to 4 hour session, except for the championship finals on Saturday night. 48 State Champs where Kansas has 64 Champs

State Dual Tournament. Not being in Iowa, this gets pretty confusing, Each of the 16 1A and 2A Sectionals on 6 Feb advances the two top teams to one of eight – four team Regionals (16 Sectionals X 2 team= 32 teams per class to regionals divide by 8 =4). 1A and 2A Dual Regionals are wrestled on Tuesday 9 Feb (3 days after the 6 Feb Sectionals). Only the 8 Regional Champ Teams advance to the State Dual Tournament. The 1A, 2A, and 3A Districts are wrestled on Feb 13. Note here that Class 1A and 2A sectional and regional team champs and wrestlers will wrestle three big tournaments in 8 day. 3A wrestlers begin State competition at Districts on 13 Feb. The 3 ½ day Individual State Tournament is wrestled 17 through 20 Feb. The 3A Sectional Champ Teams (8 Sectionals) advance to the 3A Dual Regional on 23 Feb—3 days after the State Individual Tournament. The State Dual Tournament with 8 -1A Schools, 8 - 2A schools, and 8 -3A schools is wrestled on 27 Feb. Of note here is a lot of wrestlers in all weight classes may have a 2 to 3 week break with no wrestling if they did not qualify for the Individual State Tournament.

Ok. So what does a Dual State tournament offer for Kansas? More bragging rights at more costs. Surely, dual state tournament advocates don’t want to scrap our individual State Tournaments in favor of a Dual Tournament.

Grand State. To me this is a better proposal. Still costly, but probably less than a Dual State, and certainly simpler. I Assume the 4 class champs in each weight bracket would advance to the Grand State to form a 4 man bracket---or to include the bracket runner ups to form an 8 man bracket. Either way, could be wrestled in a one day Grand Day Tournament. A Grand State mingles wrestlers from all classes of schools and produces a Grand Champion in each weight bracket.

I have no comments on the other proposals, except I think the no 6 match rule was established in consideration of the health and safety of the wrestlers---tiredness can lead to injuries.

Hope I did not bore you to death with details.
Posted By: HEADUP Re: Kansas Proposals - 02/05/10 02:05 AM
is it 500 miles from the border? or is it 500 miles from the school?
Posted By: RichardDSalyer Re: Kansas Proposals - 02/05/10 02:25 AM
Originally Posted By: HEADUP
is it 500 miles from the border? or is it 500 miles from the school?
From the border!
Posted By: Cokeley Re: Kansas Proposals - 02/05/10 07:59 AM
Contrarian,

I don't want to get into a writing contest with you so I will keep it short.

The proposal is for one trip outside of 500 miles. If you don't or your school doesn't want to go on one stay home. If you or your school cannot afford or chooses to not try to afford a trip then stay home. I am just proposing the choice. We CANNOT reach the three HS tournaments that garner the most attention for a wrestler but our bands can travel as far as they want to march or play. How much sense does that make?? FREEDOM TO CHOOSE!

Some kids want their coach in their corner at Nationals. Some coaches would like to work with those who CHOOSE to wrestle outside of the HS season. The spring offers THE BEST National level Folkstyle tournaments (other than the Big Three during the season). In todays environment any wrestling coach that would mandate practices in violation of a rule would be committing professional suicide. First off the kids who don't want to wrestle will refuse to show up. Secondly, someone will turn them in. Again, the FREEDOM TO CHOOSE! Those who don't want to wrestle won't and those who do will. Those who want to coach will and those who don't won't. Contrarian, are you a control freak???

Outside of the season...Other states allow it. Heck you can do it here before season, if you skip practice for a couple of weeks. Is there something wrong with our wrestlers that they aren't capable of MAKING THE RIGHT CHOICE FOR THEM? An athlete or family shouldn't be FORCED to make a decision based on a rule. They should have the right to choose to go to a clinic, go to a tournament, practice with others or whatever during THEIR time. Again, the FREEDOM TO CHOOSE. Did I already ask you if you are a control freak???

Six match limit...This has been discussed. The number of minutes on the mat don't exceed the number of minutes you can run on a soccer field or run up and down a basketball court. We allow our boys to crash their heads into each other for 48 minutes on a football field. In the summer wrestlers routinely wrestle more than 5 matches in one day and the rules allow the combat to be much more violent than in the winter. That 5 match limit is just BS. You are all about saving money on your other proposals so why don't you pencil out how much we would save by shaving a day off of 8 regional tournaments??

I think you just don't like change. Without change, there can be no improvement. The more rules there are the less freedom you have.

My biggest wish would be to have all of the state tournaments in the same building!!
Posted By: WillyM Re: Kansas Proposals - 02/05/10 09:55 AM
A general statement. Coaches are more competitive than all but a few of their athletes. They would not be coaches if they were not! The no coach/athlete contact out of season has a purpose--or many states would not have adopted it. Many HS coaches, especially successful coaches and teams, want their their athletes to play only one, and only one sport. Specialization. Parents of players of a local year after year winning 6A basketball team have told me of their coaches demands: if you play another sport you can't play for me. Apparantly in Missouri coaches are not restricted by the no contact rule. My nephew was a baseball player. The HS coaches were also the American legion coaches. If a kid did not play on his HS team he could not play on his American Legion Team--and if he did not play on his American Legion team he could not play on his HS team. My son was very competitive in HS in two sports (8 varsity letter--their were kids with more letter, but not in only two sports). By the end of the season in each sport my son needed a break from each of his HS coaches---and the coaches all needed a break from my son and the other kids. You are being naive if you think coaches are not control freaks, and you are showing signs on naivity, and of a control freak, by the way you are wanting to control KS HS wrestling.

As far as the 500 mile travel restriction, why not do a survey and see how many of the HS that wrestle want to travel out of state more than the 500 miles. Have heard a lot of West Kansas complaints on how much and the long distances they have to travel for in state competition (have seen some team busses that are travel coaches). If you do the survey, don't query the coaches, survey the principals, athletic directors, and superintendents--the people who have manage the money.

I enjoy reading your comments. Thought out and well presented (except when you get on a soap box, i.e. "FREEDOM TO CHOOSE", plus a few other darts you occassionally throw).

Not to be disparging but I sometimes think you are probably more competitive than your son--who is an excellent HS wrestler who will succeed at a much higher level in college.

About all State Tournaments in the same building. I really liked the combined 4, 5, and 6A Tournaments at in that big arena north of Wichita. Great atmosphere! Don't think western Kansas wrestling community will ever agree to one big, big tourney. Certainly did not care for the Iowa format where only one class on the mats in each session.

Where is the spell checker???

Enuff said!
Posted By: sportsfan02 Re: Kansas Proposals - 02/05/10 10:40 AM
"You are being naive if you think coaches are not control freaks, and you are showing signs on naivity, and of a control freak, by the way you are wanting to control KS HS wrestling."

"I enjoy reading your comments. Thought out and well presented (except when you get on a soap box, i.e. "FREEDOM TO CHOOSE", plus a few other darts you occassionally throw)."


Uh oh!

Posted By: Cleve Welsh Re: Kansas Proposals - 02/05/10 11:36 AM
Wow, I just can't keep this to myself any more. My senior wrestler was in the orchestra his freshman year and they took a trip to enjoy the Boston Pops in April a couple of weeks after Spring Break. They were gone for two days of school. No one flunked out of school.

I haven't understood this 500 mile rule.....ever. If your team can afford it and wants to go.........go. If you don't want to take advantage of the opportunity, travel to Newton to a great tournament. What is the big deal? I heard this same crap in Oklahoma back when the OSHSAA forbid football players from traveling to post season All Star games. The first lawsuit that resulted from some kid being denied a scholarship because he didn't participate ended that one right smartly.

The five match rule is also silly. First, it happens to what, two wrestlers in a Tourney? And the two times I have seen it happen this year, the wrestlers involved each had matches among their five that lasted less than two minutes.

Now for the "coaches are more competitive so there should be a time off" discussion. I see both points of view and I am leaning to the more the better thing. I don't/didn't play either softball or flag football because I am so competitive. You will be hard pressed to find someone more so. Both my sons have participated in sports all their lives and I have watched them and coached them both. While the coaches where you are may insist on specialization, none of the coaches at Shawnee Mission East do. In fact, most of our wrestling coaches don't specialize in wrestling. If any coach threatened any kid within my hearing of, "play only my sport or not at all," there would be a "discussion". There may well be some merit in the "need a break from each other," argument, but I am not sure I am persuaded.
Posted By: HEADUP Re: Kansas Proposals - 02/05/10 11:44 AM
I know that some of the rules discussed here are thought to level the playing field "make things FAIR", BUT:

why should it matter if some schools don't want to travel? while you are at it ask the "WESTERN KS" schools if they would oppose the 500 mile traveling rule for money or competition. it's all in how you word the question. the way you write it: we don't travel because people who live out west have to travel farther, more often. is that FAIR? true?

ask more like this: would you choose to abolish the 500 mile travel rule, NOT factoring in money? your answers would be different. schools can choose to have fund raisers for athletics too. i never understood why the cheerleaders went to camps etc. in the summer (with their coach), and had to raise money with car washes etc. to buy new uniforms. yet the sports teams never did. in band (yes i was in band too, my coach didn't punish us if we were "3 sport studs" or involved in other academics) we raised money for three 1/2 years to travel to D.C., in the summer/ with our instructor. why can't western ks athletics have fund raisers. is it not FAIR?

again i'm not sure this is even a west vs east issue. is it? maybe i'm wrong. wouldn't be the first time. lol.

i don't want to go to the ballet with my wife, but it's not a rule that NO ONE can. THAT SIMPLY WOULD NOT BE FAIR.


i know of a coach who coaches his high school baseball team (right here in KS) AND the legion team, it's within the rules simply because, he has children on the team. then after summer baseball at least two stars from two different high schools transferred to play for him. they have only lost 1 state baseball title in the last 10 years. is that FAIR?

i know of a coach who coached his son at nationals, so did the wrestlers uncle. coach him "out of season" and all summer long. it's within the rules, but is it FAIR?

i certainly know of coaches who "demote" kids if they are involved in any sport, but their own. coaches also choose varsity/junior varsity spots on their own. whether you have "out of season" contact or not, it won't always be FAIR.

i believe that in this day in age when the economy is tough, and college tuition is on the rise, that it is UNFAIR to limit high school student/athletes in ways that could jeopardize a scholarship opportunity. it doesn't matter how strict you make the rules there will always be a coach who chooses to break the rules. that will NEVER change.

my last comments on this would be: police the criminals, not society. loosen the grip, change some rules, prosecute the violators. make the decisions based less on POLITICS and more about STUDENT/ ATHLETES.
Posted By: BJobe Re: Kansas Proposals - 02/05/10 01:17 PM
I would love to have the opportunity to begin freestyle and greco practices with some of my athletes who CHOSE to make themselves better in the offseason. Will, you make a great point about allowing our athletes to chose. If they don't want to be there, I don't want them there.

Lets face it, kids want what is convienent. If it's not convienent for them to drive 30+ minutes to a freestyle/greco/kids practice, they probably won't do it, or can't do it. There is absoloutly nothing wrong with allowing additional training opportunities for the willing.

I would also like to see freestyle/greco regional training centers set up around the state. This gets our athletes training together, and everyone on the same page. Of course, not everyone would be able to attend, but it would make a huge impact when everyone does get together for Southern Plains, Fargo, etc. I know there are many coaches who are qualified and willing to put in the time to make this happen.

Posted By: Chad Parks Re: Kansas Proposals - 02/05/10 01:44 PM
I agree w/Jobe 100%. I'm from Oklahoma and we would start FS/GR practice about a week after our HS season was over. Our own coaches were allowed to coach us. My HS team (Shawnee Hts) is starting to buy into wrestling in the offseason, but it's hard to find someone qualified to coach them during the Spring. They will not travel to other schools to train, but will train at our own school(b/c it is convenient). I would love to be able to coach my own wrestlers in the spring for FS/GR.

I tell my guys that you can still play baseball or run track and make practice 2 x's/week for some extra mat time. We share our athletes at Shawnee Hts, and I encourage this. But, if a kid is willing to dedicate himself to wrestling in the off season, why can't he get his own coach to help him?
Posted By: HEADUP Re: Kansas Proposals - 02/05/10 01:57 PM
it's just not FAIR to punish the masses, for the chance, that there might be a violator. agree or disagree it IS bad policy.

we are trying to level the playing field within our borders, but are severly limiting our kids opportunities, as compared to other states.

i wonder how many scholarships kansas kids forfeit each year to kids from states, that allow more CHOICES for the student/ athlete.

look at the rosters of the D1 AND D2 teams in KS, they are filled with student/athlets from surrounding states, who have fewer restrictions. if all men are created equal, then shame on US to hold OUR kids back, and deprive them of a CHOICE.
Posted By: 3HSWrestler Re: Kansas Proposals - 02/05/10 02:20 PM
I have only been in the state of KS for a little over 10 years now and since my son is only a soph, I can honestly say that I do not know enough about the rules/regulations. So, I don't need to propose rule changes, but I would like to touch on what contrarian brought up. I am from South Jersey where there is a large passion for this sport. One thing they are still big on back there are duals. I understand more tournaments means more mat time, but what duals brings to the sport is undeniable. More fans, team rivalries and I think more team unity. We had 4 duals this year and even though we didn't take them all, they were EXCITING! Our dual w/ Shawnee Hts was edge of the seat and the fans were LOUD! With that I would like to see State Duals within the classes. Alot of states do it and they generate large crowds. More than anything, I would like to see one state tournament. I know I will hear many disagreements, but just hear me out. unless things have changed in NJ, they start out w/ a district tournament...there are (at least) 32 districts in NJ and they all have a minimum of 16 teams. The top 3 move on to Regionals....there are 8 Regions w/ a full 16 man bracket. Top 3 move on to State. they incorporate ALL classes. And trust me, 1 of, if not the best, high school wrestling team the last 40 years in NJ is Paulsboro HS-a small school sporting 450-550 kids 9-12. heck, they went 38, 39 years w/out losing a conference dual! That is 9 duals a season almost 40 years w/out losing! They were so good that school district would buy a steak dinner after the season for whomever beat a Paulsboro kid. I went 2-1-1 my 4 years vs. them. For the tie they told me they would buy me a milkshake!!LOL! Anyhow, to me...that determines 1 true state champion. Please, feel free to unload on me.
Posted By: HEADUP Re: Kansas Proposals - 02/05/10 02:52 PM
no unloading from here, let's do it. our high school has only 1 home meet, this year. can't really build a club/team that way. yet four nights a week you can go watch some form of inter- scholastic football. let US promote the sport.
Posted By: GregMann Re: Kansas Proposals - 02/05/10 03:06 PM
Headup:

". . .why can't western ks athletics have fund raisers. is it not FAIR?"

Not sure what Western Kansas has to do with your concern regarding travel; the rule is 500 miles FROM THE BORDER not from your school/community. Norton could travel across the state and then go an additional 500 miles east of the Kansas-Missouri Border and still be within the rule.

We are NOT fearful of traveling; for crying out loud we travel all the time; travel "out here" is a way of life!

I do not know where you live, but we probably travel more miles for regular competition in a normal week of our season than you do in your entire season.
Posted By: Chief Renegade Re: Kansas Proposals - 02/05/10 03:12 PM
3H, That's a great post. Gets me fired up just thinking about it. Duals are flat out GOOD for High School wrestling! These auxillary gyms that many schools have now are perfect for full bleachers and a boisterous crowd. There is no other format that brings the wrestlers closer together than a full bench cheering each wrestler on and staring at the team score with every match. Look at the Schoolboy, Middle School, Cadet and Junior duals. Those teammates are friends for life.

We need additional competition points to allow for more than ONE HOME DUAL!

The starting point for changing rules, needs to be the 5 match limit. I have yet to hear a reasonable answer in favor of this rule!

Posted By: Chad Parks Re: Kansas Proposals - 02/05/10 03:13 PM
3HSWrestler- I am the head wrestling coach at Shawnee Hts. I appreciate your comments about the Hts v GE dual. I'm from a small town in Oklahoma where at least 1000 people fill the stands for every home dual meet. It is like Friday Night Lights, but for wrestling. This is my goal for Shawnee Hts wrestling. I love duals and wish KS had a dual state tourney as well as a normal state tourney.

We have been building this program and try to put on a show at home. I tell my wrestlers, this show is not for us....we just need to wrestle. The show is for the fans and school. The true wrestling fan loves to watch a good match, but the normal person doesn't even understand wrestling. So, we need to promote the sport and do something to draw people in to watch us. This week we will have our Sr night. For this dual we will project a highlight video on the gym wall before the varsity dual. Then we will intro the Sr's and have them walk out with their parents. Following Sr night events, we will start "The Show". We will bring our kids club wrestlers out on the mat w/our HS wrestlers and say our team creed together and then do our team break down. Our varsity wrestlers will be intro'd to music as they run out of a tunnel w/smoke. We will wrestle all matches under a matlamp. Each wrestler will have their own intro song as they walk onto the mat before they wrestle. T-shirts will be thrown into the crowd along with beads in Shawnee Hts colors.

This type of atmosphere makes wrestling fun and builds a program. Our kids club wrestlers see this and think, I wnt to be that varsity wrestler someday. Anyway, thanks again and I hope people continue to promote and build our sport!

p.s. This dual will be next Wed at Shawnee Hts. JV matches begin at 6 pm and the varsity matches will begin around 7 pm if anyone wants to come and watch.
Posted By: shawnbudke Re: Kansas Proposals - 02/05/10 04:20 PM
I really like the State Dual idea. I think we should push for that before a Grand State. Here's why.....

1. In order to keep wrestling growing as a sport and to keep it from always being on the chopping block we need to increase fan interest. For true wrestling enthusiasts, individual matches are enjoyable but for the average observer it can be very complicated to follow and enjoy. It is much easier for the casual fan to understand the team concept and scoring.

2. It is easier for coaches to build excitment and school pride within their team and their school using a dual type format. Coach Parks has it absolutley right and does a great job at Shawnee Heights.

3. The dual format brings a totally different set of lessons that our wrestlers need to learn. How you compete can become very important. For example, a kid that would normally get pinned by his opponent that fights off his back and doesn't give up 6 points can end up being a hero. These are good lessons for our kids to learn.

4. Teamwork/Team Unity....a dual format helps teach the kids about teamwork and team unity. These are critical life lessons that you need in almost every job or walk of life.

5. Most kids spend the majority of their wrestling career wrestling for themselves in individual tournaments. They start in kids club and it goes from there.

6. Kids love the dual format. To see the hard evidence of that look no farther than Will Cokeley and the Middle School Duals that he got started here in KS. The interest in that event has grown exponentially in just the past 4-5 years. I have kids that have had the privalege (I deliberately choose that word) to be on one of the Team KS teams for this and it is their favorite wrestling event that they attend.

I am not arguing to not have an individual state. I like the idea of having both.

I know some other rules will have to change in order to pull this off but I think it would be awesome to do a dual state!

Shawn Budke
Posted By: Cokeley Re: Kansas Proposals - 02/05/10 04:51 PM
Originally Posted By: Contrarian
A general statement. Coaches are more competitive than all but a few of their athletes. They would not be coaches if they were not! The no coach/athlete contact out of season has a purpose--or many states would not have adopted it.

A wrestling coach that attempts to MAKE kids practice and wrestle outside of the season will soon find himself without a team. The ONLY kids who will do so are the ones who want to. Wrestling is not LIKE team sports in that a coach, one with any ethics, tell a kid that he will NOT be a starter if he doesn’t come to his spring practices. It is NOT the coach’s choice. The beautiful thing about wrestling is that the athletes determine who is in the starting lineup, not the coach. You are naïve if you don’t think nearly every wrestling coach in Kansas would do about anything to get more athletes in their room not thin them out by burning them out.
If my son wanted to be a geometry whiz no one would tell him he couldn’t work with the geometry teacher every day all summer long. What is the difference???
Originally Posted By: Contrarian
You are being naive if you think coaches are not control freaks, and you are showing signs on naivety, and of a control freak, by the way you are wanting to control KS HS wrestling.

I am very puzzled by your statement that I am trying to “CONTROL HS WRESTLING” when my suggestions merely permit a program to have a choice. By desiring more FREEDOM I am a control freak. That seems, well contrary!


Originally Posted By: Contrarian
As far as the 500 mile travel restriction, why not do a survey and see how many of the HS that wrestle want to travel out of state more than the 500 miles. Have heard a lot of West Kansas complaints on how much and the long distances they have to travel for in state competition (have seen some team busses that are travel coaches). If you do the survey, don't query the coaches, survey the principals, athletic directors, and superintendents--the people who have manage the money.

WHY, WHY, WHY do we need this rule??? Travel is self policing!! If you cannot afford or do not want to go then DON’T. Blue Valley HS never leaves the metro area! If it is about missed classroom time then limit that but not by a mileage limit. The rule is outdated and stupid. You don’t need a survey when the rule is unnecessary! Again I ask you “WHY is it okay for the band to be able to travel ANYWHERE but the wrestling team only 500 miles from the border?” PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE show me the common sense behind this rule!
The video rule is the same. This rule is practically unenforceable and is only complaint driven. There are lots of people out there who cannot attend and would like to watch matches. Why have a stupid rule in the handbook if it is not worthy of enforcement?


Originally Posted By: Contrarian
I enjoy reading your comments. Thought out and well presented (except when you get on a soap box, i.e. "FREEDOM TO CHOOSE", plus a few other darts you occasionally throw).


Someone needs to get on a soapbox with a bullhorn and microphone! The process to change any of what we would like to have happen is so cumbersome that it is nearly impossible. The entire process needs to be overhauled as an entire generation will flow through the system before anything meaningful will happen.

Originally Posted By: Contrarian
Not to be disparaging but I sometimes think you are probably more competitive than your son--who is an excellent HS wrestler who will succeed at a much higher level in college.

Why would it be disparaging to say I was more competitive than my son? Isn’t it every dad’s dream to have their son excel and achieve their goals? Without competitive dads there would be no competitive athletes.

Originally Posted By: Contrarian
About all State Tournaments in the same building. I really liked the combined 4, 5, and 6A Tournaments at in that big arena north of Wichita. Great atmosphere! Don't think western Kansas wrestling community will ever agree to one big, big tourney. Certainly did not care for the Iowa format where only one class on the mats in each session.


Kansas is one of very few states who do not host all of their state wrestling tournaments in the same venue at the same time. Iowa’s is perhaps the MOST prestigious high school state tournament in the country. I want to see all of my friends and all of the wrestlers at the same place at the same time. The present format of having only 4A in Salina is a joke. It is so quiet on the night of the finals. By 285 there is just a bit more than a cleanup crew left. I HATE IT!

Originally Posted By: Contrarian
Where is the spell checker???

Enuff said!
I cleaned up your post for you.
Posted By: WillyM Re: Kansas Proposals - 02/05/10 04:56 PM
A few replies:

Still do not see the virtues of a Dual State Tournament in Kansas. With our small number of high schools in all classes, I would anticipate seeing almost the same schools year after year in each class. Most teams ride to our State tournament on the backs of 2 to 4 good wrestlers. The majority of schools do not have the team depth to succeed in a dual format. In all 4 classes you would get the perinnal "big dogs", who have probably already wrestled each other 2 or 3 times during the regular season.

My comments may also support an arguement for a dual format. But, I would still rather see a GRAND STATE with CHAMP ON CHAMP!

Don't really care about the 500 mile rule. Still, t is expensive, and however a long trip is funded, moms and dads are going to have to divy up--money, effort, or both. Plus I doubt if very many Kansas wrestlers have been passed over because they did not travel a 1000 miles out of state. This allegation makes no sense--especially when I hear and read of both Kansas and Mssouri wrestlers going to major colleges to wrestle. Hey dads and coaches, every kid who puts on a singlet is not a prospective AllAmerican.

Have not convinced me that the Coach Contact rule should be over turned. If a HS coach wants to coach at a Nationals, then go to a neighboring city or town and coach a club their with other kids. The purpose of the rule is to protect the kid. Also, working for a club coach who is not his HS coach exoses the kid to other styles, holds, strategies, etc. Seems that is similar to why wrestle more matches--EXPERIENCE!

Western Kansas HS travel. I was not disparging teams from out west,have heard, and even read on this forum, numerous comments, complaints, even brags about western KS travel. I was just using you as a cogent example. How many miles a year do all Liberal HS teams have to travel. My butt would get awfully tired sitting in that bus--even though it is a travel coach.

Lastly, thanks for critizing our team because we are economically challenged (poor), can't afford to travel more than 20 miles (round trip). and buy our uniforms and wrestling shoes from Goodwill and Salvation Army Thrift stores.
Posted By: John Johnson Re: Kansas Proposals - 02/05/10 05:05 PM
I believe Will's proposal of additional competition points for night duals is very important. Many schools have eliminated duals as a waste of points or just have one as a parents night. Most fans cannot afford to travel for a whole Saturday to watch a tournament, but they can find a few hours after dark on a weekday night to watch. By losing the home dual, we have lost our home fan base. This is very important during a time of cut-backs. We need fans who will push school boards to keep wrestling. I believe some programs will disappear by next season due to the economy. And, we need to steal a few of those Friday nights from that other activity.

As for allowing coachs contact with their kids after the season - one needs to remember some oppose this - because their HS coach is also maybe 'an assistant track or baseball coach' and would not have the time to put in for freestyle/greco (along with the fact they may not understand freestyle/greco). These coachs may feel pressured to keep up with everyone else. And, teachers do not make that much and may need the money that comes from being an assistant track coach - trying not to be that judgemental. Just pointing out why some like contrarian may oppose this.
Posted By: HEADUP Re: Kansas Proposals - 02/05/10 05:29 PM
Originally Posted By: Contrarian

Plus I doubt if very many Kansas wrestlers have been passed over because they did not travel a 1000 miles out of state. This allegation makes no sense--especially when I hear and read of both Kansas and Mssouri wrestlers going to major colleges to wrestle.

i did not say that ks athletes were passed over because they couldn't travel 1000 miles. i said that the great number of restrictions that the KSHAA puts on KS student/athletes hinders their ability to showcase their talents, compared to student/athletes from state with fewer restrictions. be contrary all you want that is your right. please do not misquote, that is irresponsible. if money is the only reason for keeping the rule i think that is absurd. schools pass bond issues every 6 months to raise millions of dollars for various reasons, 1 trip outside 500 miles wouldn't cost nearly what you are trying to make it sound.

Hey dads and coaches, every kid who puts on a singlet is not a prospective AllAmerican.

who mentioned all american? i believe that is a very discouragin statement. every kid who puts on a singlet IS a prospective AA, certainly all will not make AA but the possibility IS there. i hope that's not your "good night, son" speech.

Have not convinced me that the Coach Contact rule should be over turned. If a HS coach wants to coach at a Nationals, then go to a neighboring city or town and coach a club their with other kids. The purpose of the rule is to protect the kid.

protect the kid from what? where did you read that? is that YOUR interpretation of the rule?


How many miles a year do all Liberal HS teams have to travel. My butt would get awfully tired sitting in that bus--even though it is a travel coach.

again don't pass a rule to govern all, yet satisfy only a few. just because your butt would get tired doesn't mean that it should be against the rules for EVERYONE to travel. that means you should get to CHOOSE!!! tired butt, no tired butt, stay home, don't stay home, get better, don't get better, mom and dad donate, mom and dad don't donate. either way it's a CHOICE.




Posted By: HEADUP Re: Kansas Proposals - 02/05/10 05:33 PM
sorry i'm not a smart as will, can't use the quote function. lol.
Posted By: Chief Renegade Re: Kansas Proposals - 02/05/10 05:37 PM
Contrarian,

No chance at AA, stay at home cause your butt gets tired and protect the kids from coaches that really want to help them excel. Now those are solutions we can 86.
Posted By: WillyM Re: Kansas Proposals - 02/05/10 05:48 PM
Amazing how most of the responders to my comments took my comments literally rather than figuratively.

Why are things the way they are? Because!
Posted By: badbo Re: Kansas Proposals - 02/05/10 05:48 PM
Matside weighins before each match, or maybe a more steamlined, an additional weigh in 1hr before finals.
Posted By: WillyM Re: Kansas Proposals - 02/05/10 06:14 PM
I offer a proposal for Kansas that they use in Iowa.

If a wrestler who has qualified for state out of his regional, Is ill or injured, or for any reason, cannot wrestle at state, select the (in Kansas) the 5th placer from the same regional to go to State. All wrestlers behind the ill or injured wrestler are moved up in the pecking ooder. Example: the bracket runnerup (2nd) is unable to wrestle State--the 5th place wrestler moves to 4th, 4th to 3rd, 3rd to 2nd. Number 1 stays at number 1. This should not happen often, but it will preclude open brackets and byes at State. In Iowa, because they only advance two wrestlers to state, they go down to only 3rd place, and only 3rd place, to get a bracket filler replacement.
Posted By: WillyM Re: Kansas Proposals - 02/05/10 06:21 PM
Hey Chief! Figurative! Not literal.

What do you teach? Surely not English Lit!

Do not understand your AA comment. Why not keep it to wrestling!
Posted By: WillyM Re: Kansas Proposals - 02/05/10 06:42 PM
Reference all State Tournaments in one building. Other than KU and KSU where are there facilities big enough to get 12 mats on the floor--3 per school class--no aux facilities allowed--and to seat the crowds.

Still have the issue of 321A moving from Fort Hays.

Is not 4A planned to again join 6A and 5A in a one building tournament? If so, when?

Another issue, if there is not a facility in Wichita big enough to support a single 4 class state tournament, how do you get out of Wichita without an in-state civil war?
Posted By: GregMann Fifth Place?!?! - 02/05/10 06:51 PM
Moving up a fifth place wrestler means there would have to be a fifth place match which has already been identified in an earlier topic as further proof that wrestling has been p***ified. grin
Posted By: M.Church_AD Re: Fifth Place?!?! - 02/05/10 08:05 PM
Rule Change Proposal
State wide seeding criteria
1-Head to Head (Most wins in series current season)
2- Common Opponent (If not head to head but a win against a common)
3-USA Wrestling Cadet/Junior National Champion/All-American (3 pts)
• Fargo- Freestyle/Greco
• Northern Iowa – Folkstyle
4-State Champions- (Weight Class does not matter) (2 pts)
5-All State Placings (1 pt)
• Ie. 3 is more than 2 therefore better.
6-State Qualifier (1/2 pt)
1) If a wrestler has criteria in # 1 that wrestler is the higher seed.
2) If no #1 but a wrestler as criteria in #2 that wrestler is the higher seed.
3-5) If no #1 or #2 criteria, starting adding up total points and the wrestler with the most points is the higher seeded wrestler.
*If still a tie, draw out of pill bottle or coaches vote (tournament directors decision which one)
Note: I don’t believe placing at that tournament, or better record should be a criteria. Brackets change from year to year and some schedules are tougher than others.

Why?
• It is apparent that every seeding meeting is different. You also have early season tournaments where there is no possible head to head or common opponent. I believe this aligns our brackets as a state.
• This will encourage coaches and wrestlers to participate in post season competition. If it is possible to get a seeding point(s) for being apart and placing in the Natioanal level competition then it should be used as criteria. These tournaments are worthy of points but I believe we should make it uniform to our wrestling governing bodies of USA Wrestling and even look at adding NHSCA National competition.


• I also believe if we seeded the state wrestling tournament (With the 16 qualifiers from regionals) in the same manner we would have better tournaments, better competition and a raise in post season participation.
o Separate the best athletes
o Can keep your 4 regions
o Seeding meeting Thursday as soon as possible after Regionals in a state designated location per class.
Posted By: Beeson Re: Fifth Place?!?! - 02/05/10 09:27 PM
Originally Posted By: GregMann
Moving up a fifth place wrestler means there would have to be a fifth place match which has already been identified in an earlier topic as further proof that wrestling has been p***ified. grin


I'm glad your on board Greg. grin I wouldn't be opposed to wrestling for 5th just to make sure there wasn't an open spot in the bracket at State. Just make sure they don't get to stand on the podium or get a medal. laugh
Posted By: nastyway Re: Fifth Place?!?! - 02/05/10 09:31 PM
this clown is a coach im pointing up
Posted By: Beeson Re: Fifth Place?!?! - 02/05/10 10:23 PM
You mean looking up, at the lights. In wrestling that's not good. whistle
Posted By: nastyway Re: Fifth Place?!?! - 02/05/10 10:35 PM
sorry beeson we all can't be such bad aces as you tuff guy sorry i said something now i am terrified. nastyway trembles in fear
Posted By: Beeson Re: Fifth Place?!?! - 02/05/10 10:48 PM
Don't be terrified, it was just a little joke. I really didn't mean to scare you. Contact Head Up if you would like to file a grievance. smile (The smile face means this is a joke also.)
Posted By: sportsfan02 Re: Kansas Proposals - 02/05/10 11:02 PM
Originally Posted By: Contrarian
A few replies:

Still do not see the virtues of a Dual State Tournament in Kansas. With our small number of high schools in all classes, I would anticipate seeing almost the same schools year after year in each class. Most teams ride to our State tournament on the backs of 2 to 4 good wrestlers. The majority of schools do not have the team depth to succeed in a dual format. In all 4 classes you would get the perinnal "big dogs", who have probably already wrestled each other 2 or 3 times during the regular season.

My comments may also support an arguement for a dual format. But, I would still rather see a GRAND STATE with CHAMP ON CHAMP!

Don't really care about the 500 mile rule. Still, t is expensive, and however a long trip is funded, moms and dads are going to have to divy up--money, effort, or both. Plus I doubt if very many Kansas wrestlers have been passed over because they did not travel a 1000 miles out of state. This allegation makes no sense--especially when I hear and read of both Kansas and Mssouri wrestlers going to major colleges to wrestle. Hey dads and coaches, every kid who puts on a singlet is not a prospective AllAmerican.

Have not convinced me that the Coach Contact rule should be over turned. If a HS coach wants to coach at a Nationals, then go to a neighboring city or town and coach a club their with other kids. The purpose of the rule is to protect the kid. Also, working for a club coach who is not his HS coach exoses the kid to other styles, holds, strategies, etc. Seems that is similar to why wrestle more matches--EXPERIENCE!

Western Kansas HS travel. I was not disparging teams from out west,have heard, and even read on this forum, numerous comments, complaints, even brags about western KS travel. I was just using you as a cogent example. How many miles a year do all Liberal HS teams have to travel. My butt would get awfully tired sitting in that bus--even though it is a travel coach.

Lastly, thanks for critizing our team because we are economically challenged (poor), can't afford to travel more than 20 miles (round trip). and buy our uniforms and wrestling shoes from Goodwill and Salvation Army Thrift stores.

Fear the minions!
Posted By: sportsfan02 Re: Kansas Proposals - 02/05/10 11:03 PM
Originally Posted By: Chief Renegade
Contrarian,
No chance at AA, stay at home cause your butt gets tired and protect the kids from coaches that really want to help them excel. Now those are solutions we can 86.

See I told you so Contrarian!
Posted By: HEADUP Re: Kansas Proposals - 02/06/10 01:21 AM
is there a reason for me to assemble the grievance committee? would nasty like to file a complaint?
Posted By: A. Steele Re: Kansas Proposals - 02/08/10 08:01 PM
With the question being raised on the "ast the Ref" page about stalling and wrestling near the edge of the mat. Can we look at maybe getting the Greco/Freestyle push out rule into folkstyle. That would help eliminate some of these stalling issues. That rule would help keep wreslters in the center and from using the boundry while standing.
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