This thread is meant for everyone that has, had or will have a middle school wrestler especially if you live in District 2 or 3 and participate in the Pioneer League. Over the years there has been several threads on why/why not wrestle for the middle school and while there are good points on both sides, one of the concerns locally is the timing of the season. Currently our middle school season in District 2&3 runs from Jan 6th to approx March 3 and is consider the late season. Unfortunately this occurs during the meat of the youth season creating for some, reason enough not to join their middle school programs. I think it is safe to say we would all like our kids to be the best they can be while giving them the opportunity to explore new challenges. It is my belief that should the Pioneer League adopt the “early season” (Oct-the 1st of Dec) like many other areas across the state the following advantages could be achieved.
Stronger middle school teams – In terms of participation and quality of matches
Better relationships between the club and middle school program
Provide an opportunity for the kids to also participate in Basketball at the middle school
Allow wrestlers to participate in the club during the critical part of the season
It truly is a win/win/win situation for the kids, school & club! The purpose of this thread is to ask for your feedback, whether you are in District 2&3 or not, and ask you to consider sending an email to your Middle School AD voicing your thoughts/desire on changing the wrestling season. I have attached the contact information below to make it easy for you or you can also find this information at
www.pioneerleague.org on the right side under directory. I will be sending an introductory email to each of the ADs advising them that this post and survey are out here for them to review and hopefully we can start a productive dialogue. It is my understanding that it is the ADs (21 of them) that make the decision on this and they could present this at the upcoming March Kansas Interscholastic Athletic Administrators Association (KIAAA) meeting in Wichita. Just because it has been this way doesn’t make it the best option and together maybe we can make it better. Thanks for your help and feedback! Please see poll at bottom!
Any questions I can be reached at 316-734-8088 or jsmith462@cox.net
Derby
AD - Russell Baldwin
rbaldwin@usd260.com
Coach - Joaquin Zapata
Goddard
AD - Sean Hollas
shollas@goddardusd.com
Coach - Pat Easum
Haysville West
AD - Jeromy Swearingen
jswearingen@usd261.com
Coach - Dave Hull
Hutchinson
AD - Kevin Armstrong
armstrongk@usd308.com
Coach - Myron Ellegood
Maize
AD - Chad Cramer
ccramer@usd266.com
Coach - Jesse Harris
Maize South
AD - Jim Foltz
jdfoltz@usd266.com
Derek Schoenthaler
Prairie Hills
AD - Todd Fredrickson
todd.fredrickson@buhlerschools.org
Coach - Scott Clark
Newton
AD - Don Cameron
dcameron@newton.k12.ks.us
Coach - John Werner
Andover
AD - Brent Jones
jonesb@usd385.org
Coach - Kyle Oyler
Andover Central
AD - Jennifer Meitler
meitlerj@usd385.org
Caoch - Derek Tuttle
Eisenhower
AD - Greg Clamons
gclamons@goddardusd.com
Coach - Brian Means
Haysville
AD - Clint Shipley
cshipley@usd261.com
Coach - Jesse Shetler
Valley Center
AD - Vic Noordhoek
vic.noordhoek@usd262.net
Coach - Corey Jones
Arkansas City
AD - Cathy Vaughn
cathy.vaughn@usd470.com
Coach - Brian Reid
Augusta
AD - Doug Law
dlaw@usd402.com
Coach - Tom Zerr
Circle
AD - Gregg Walls
gwalls@usd375.org
Coach - Mike Longshaw
El Dorado
AD - Mr. Brad Hoy
bhoy@usd263.com
Mr. Dustin Rhodes
Rose Hill
AD - Brant Miller
bmiller@usd394.com
Coach - Martin Wilkes
Wellington
AD - Mr. Brian Aufdengarten
baufdengarten@usd353.com
Coach - Grant Smith
Winfield
AD - Randy Fox
randyfo@usd465.com
Coach - Kevin Hottinger
From my experiance out here in nw kansas with the early season is it is great. The only problem is the kids that want to continue wrestling and play bball. We have three that are doing it here and it really wears on them if they go to all the wrestling practices. One or two a week is enough since they just went through middleschool. And also picking and choosing tournaments helps don't go every week if they decide to give the other sport a try. With the early season the best part is my two 9 year olds arn't in any sports at that time and there is no choosing where to go.
Just from my experience, you will have a hard time selling this to some AD's based on the fact that they have never and will never make concessions nor have much concern towards clubs in any sport. They do not seem to look at the club/scholastic relationship as that important. That being said, one more point of emphasis that can be brought up is one we suffer from here in Newton is a shortage of gyms. If we split the seasons and had Girls B-Ball and Wrestling go first and then Boys B-ball second then we would have no problem with gym space and our kids wouldn't have to hop on buses to go to other schools to practice. I have adamantly fought for this for quite some time. I just like the opportunity for kids to try our sport and also play basketball. The more you get kids involved the better!
One more thing, I have brought this up a couple of times and the AD 's response is, "Your the only one I ever hear say anything about this". So, sending the emails would help a bunch.
As a middle school coach at one of Pioneer League Schools I have heard from many other coaches including Club coaches that the early season would benefit both the school program and the Club program. I know this was sent out to my AD by me as something I would like to see changed at the middle school level. I have talked to our local club program and they have requested that all of their kids come out for the school but my problem in Goddard is that at my school we have kids in the junior high who wrestle for 5 other different clubs. As of today I have at least 4 club kids who are not out for junior high wrestling. Of those 4 kids 2 of them have personally told me it is because of 2 tournaments (Maize the belt and the Wichita Classic) that they are not wrestling for our Junior high program. 3 of them said they would have wrestled the early season for sure. Please email all your AD's and give them your opinion one way or the other as it would be great to know everyone's feelings on this matter.
Brian Means
I have fought this battle for many years only to be frustrated at the admin. Votes. To get this to pass forget about how it helps wrestling, we know that. Attack this from how it can benfit the school, save them money and gym scheduling. Several years ago, we almost got this passed but an AD made a stand and convinced another AD to change his mind. It ended a one vote win against change.
Get organized, contact Coach Zerr at Augusta, I think he has already been working on it. Get parents to back it, make phone calls to administration and be positve not combative in your appeals.
It needs to change and hopefully will those who oppose it, know it won't hurt basketball, but they are afraid it will help wrestling.
Coach Alley
Today has been extremely encouraging. I have received several positive emails from coaches, administrators and parents. In fact I have yet to hear one negative thing about changing the season. Coach Alley and several others have made excellent points on how this benefits not only the student/athlete but also the school and personnel and we will continue to focus on all of these. In order to have a meaningful dialogue I encourage those that have been against this in the past or maybe still are to share your rational. Together we might be able to come up with solutions to your concerns. If anyone knows where/who the roadblocks are on this issue please PM me their names or post it here as I would love to visit with them personally.
The only way this will get the attention it deserves is by making it known to those that make the decision. Please take the time to spread the word; contact your coaches/AD/parent and share your thoughts.
"I have fought this battle for many years only to be frustrated at the admin. Votes. To get this to pass forget about how it helps wrestling, we know that. Attack this from how it can benfit the school, save them money and gym scheduling." Quoted from Coach Alley
Very well said. I used to say that with any request you make in education you always had to end the sentence with "it will help to meet the needs of ALLL children". before an admin will even pay attention to you.
Also, stay on this folks because we are having our league activities meeting in May this year not August. I feel there is more support for this than ever before.
I have said it before, but I will say it again. The early (Oct-Dec) season is great. Then your wrestler can jump right into the Kids' Federation season ready to go. They really don't miss anything unless they are going out of state during that time. I would have hated to have the season after the first of the year, because then you would have to miss some very good Kids' Federation wrestling tournaments. If we had to do it in the late season, we would have done it because I believe in getting these wrestlers used to the team concept. For my son, it was a great experience.
If I was one of the AD's I would tell all of the CLUB WRESTLERS to "Get Bent". I officiated a dual in Ark City and Ark City was the only school that had all of its Club Wrestlers wrestling for the School. Shame on Maize, Haysville, Goddard and any other club that allows their wrestlers to wrestle for the club instead of the school. Why should these schools care what the clubs want when the clubs are not supporting the schools? The eight week school season is not going to hurt your wrestler, especially if everyone in the club goes out for the school team. Not participating, does hurt the school program.
I wonder if it is Daddy's not being able to give up power, fear, or just good ole fashioned apathy. Either way it is very disappointing to see the lack of school spirit and support.
You all wonder why the school charges you to use the facilities, maybe it is because you don't support or help them. Ark City has never been charged to use facilities for tournaments, but then we support our schools.
I have to disagree with clubs not supporting schools, I know for a fact all of the schools we have been with always supported the school, donated money from the kids club or purchased mats and things, so it's not fair to group everyone together. I also think it could "hurt" the wrestler because of the lack of decent wrestling in middle school, kids club tourneys are much tougher than middle school
Why is it that kids tourneys are tougher? Is it because when kids get to middle school their parents won't let them wrestle middle school? Just think how strong middle school wrestling would be if all of those whose say "its not tough enough my boy is wreslting club" would wrestle middle school. Just dreaming.
Hull
I have to disagree with the fact that middle school tourneys are weaker than kids club. In fact the Pioneer league actually fields some pretty competitive tournaments. Not to mention the amazing time these kids have wrestling in the dual format with all their team mates. I just don't see how that can hurt a kid? Finally, I had a kid that went on to win kids state but yet before he did that he lost his third middle school match of the season and barely pulled out a victory in the semi finals of the VC Tourney (Middle School Tourney). He has been one of my best PR guys in encouraging Club kids to come out. However, I am still missing about 4 club guys that are really good because this fallacy continues to be circulated by people that either "A" are from less competitive leagues or "B" are relying on an opinion they formed 10 years ago when it was less competitive. However, I don't know why I ranted like this knowing that the true issue at hand is we must get this season switched around to the early season and we would all enjoy a split season.
John Werner
Beeson
I wanted to come to defense of the Goddard club as one of the Junior High Coaches in Goddard. They have been excellent to me and have even requested all of their wrestlers wrestle for the junior high program. I do have all Goddard club kids wrestling for Eisenhower Junior high. The problem here is that we have many outside clubs that pull kids from our schools and then try to get them to stay out with the club during junior high season. I just wanted to make sure that the Goddard club did not get lumped into this. Thank you Brian Means EMS wrestling
Until such time as we get the season changed there is an easy way to handle the middle schoolers not wrestilng with their school teams. That is, do as some clubs do, have a club policy not to accept middle school wrestlers during the heart of their school season.
Having a club policy is great and works well. However there are a number of clubs in the metro area that are not associated with a community or a middle school. Some of these clubs do not care for their kids to be in middle school wrestling and so do not have or enforce such a policy for what ever reason.
A conceern that I have in the future is that if we were to get this past and changed, that eventually parents will figure out that their kid is missing tournament X and we will be right back to square one. And I still assume that we will not retain those kids in non-community clubs.
Hull
I owe the Goddard Wrestling Club an apology. I was misinformed and unaware that the wrestlers that were not wrestling for the school are wrestling for splinter clubs. My sincere apologies to the club.
Hull, I humbly disagree with you. To be quite honest, middle school wrestling only began to rise in district 2 after such tournaments as the Wichita Classic and The Salina TOC were already well established. Those well established tournaments that enjoy amazing support from surrounding areas took time to build their reputations. Of course wrestlers of the highest caliber will want to go to those as long as they are being staged. But to say that all of a sudden it would flip flop and there would start to be those type of caliber tournaments early in the year is probably not a very probable reality. I feel strongly that the early season would remain a time when most if not all wrestlers would want to be a part of their school teams.
Western Kansas went to the early season several years ago. It has absolutely toughened up the middle school programs. Almost all of the good middle school kids now participate for their respective school teams. Our middle school tournaments are much tougher than they were before the change, when many of the best kids chose to wrestle with their clubs during the late season.
I pushed very hard for this change for several reasons. We have had this conversation before, but I feel that TEAM should take precedence over individual success. With the early season, we have very little conflict with our more advanced kids wanting to wrestle the tougher kids tournaments before Christmas. Our team is not split, and I feel that is a very important aspect of building a wrestling program. The kids who want, have the opportunity to extend their season with their clubs and hit the big tournaments. Some of the smaller NW Kansas schools still go after Christmas, and I can assume that they have difficulty setting up a MS schedule. I understand that they may be moving their seasons to the early season, which will toughen up our tournaments a lot when you bring in some good kids from Hoxie, St. Francis and Norton, for example.
From an administrative stand point, kids who want to play BB can join those sports after Christmas. Girls BB plays before Christmas, during wrestling season. It works well. Academically, we all know of kids who wrestle for clubs when they would be unable to for their school because of ineligibility. That's another positive.
There are no negatives to the early season as I see it. It builds a team concept for MS wrestling and toughens those teams while allowing those more advanced kids to move on after Christmas. It does not hurt basketball. It allows the smaller wrestling schools to use their coaches more effectively as high school and middle school coaches. It's a win win.
Rick Cue
Ulysses
Good points Rick.
Some other benifits for the other sport. How many times have you heard that there is more concern about getting a good boys basketball coach than the girls. In my years of Education, I have heard this many times. With the split season, schools could make the best coach a Middle School Coordinator and have him/her over both the girls and boys. His season really would not be any longer than it is now but he could actually make a little more money coaching both. In the small schools where finding coaches becomes difficult, this could help them also.
Another factor is gym usage. With the split season, it would elimnate the early late practice that a lot of programs have to deal with. Girls would have priority before Christmas and Boys after. This would also allow the teams to possibly carry more kids. In the Pioneer League, thre is a home game two nites a week all season due to both programs going at the same time. This is because, if the Boys are home the Girls are away. Not much chance of building a lot of school pride. Where do the Cheerleaders go? It also means the school is paying for ticket takers and extra custodial help twice a week instead of once. Split the seasons and the Boys get to watch the girls and vise versa. This could also allow a girl to play Basketball and then Cheer for the Boys 2nd semester, or I guess a Boy could Cheer for girls and then be a Basketball player. Just trying to be Politically Correct.
We all know and understand the benifits of how it helps wrestling, as I said before, think of ways it benifits the school. You have to convince the administration that this change can help them improve what they already have in time and money usage and maybe benifit other areas as well.
Terry Alley
Bump! It seems to me if all middle schools went to the early season it would in turn make the middle school tournaments tougher due to more competition out there to choose from. Maybe Im wrong but seems this way!
Like I said before, there are no disadvantages for wrestling. Also, if your middle school and your high school share a room, the middle school team is out of the room by Christmas. One team probably has to practice late, most likely the high school team. I always feel like if a kid gets an hour or so to do something else, he may have a difficult time deciding to go to practice. I think starting a high school practice at 5 or 530 hurts the high school numbers, without a doubt. There is no doubt that it is the best thing for wrestling, and I do not see how it harms the other sport.
From my point of view
Starting wrestling after football gives the kids an option to experience both wrestling and basketball (that's what this should really be about). This would have a tremendous effect on the smaller schools participation in wrestling. Right now it is hard for some teams to field 18 wrestlers in different weight classes. I know the worst feeling for my wrestlers is showing up to a meet and having a open.
If they choose to split boys and girls BB it would also be much easier to schedule facilities and practices. As noted by others your coaches could do both boys and girls season. In wrestling this would allow high school and middle school coaches to work together or coach both seasons with only a couple weeks overlapping. Wrestling seems to be the hardest sport to find qualified coaches.
I will say I am not in favor of shortening the middle school wrestling season. We have a compressed schedule the way it is. The middle school wrestling season needs to go up till Christmas break, and boys BB needs to start in January.
The biggest complaint I have heard is that BB will lose practice time as they start about a month before their first competition. My wrestling team will also lose practice time which is were we we get better. However, I am willing to give up some practice to allow kids an opportunity to participate in both sports.
I don't believe many administrators are going to care about kids club wrestling so I would put my emphasis on the other positive things about changing the season dates.
My son wrestles in the MCL and he has only had 15 matches. If you add the 2 matches he will get next week in the league tournament, it will only give him 17. The majority of his matches have been against poor competition. The middle school season is very short and runs during most of the very high quality kids tournaments. I would really like to see our league move middle school wrestling to right after football. Give many of the kids a better opportunity to experience the team concept of middle school and if they want move on to the kids tournaments.
Myron, good to hear from you. Excellent points, by the way.
JAF, that's exactly what happens if the junior high goes after Christmas and competes with the kids club season. We usually had our best junior high age wrestlers skip their school season to compete in the larger tournaments, where they could get more matches and better competition. Now, I can't think of ANY kids in our part of the state that miss their junior high season with the exception of Michael Prieto from Holcomb who has no competition in that practice room and will end up in Garden City to wrestle for his Dad next year anyway.
I think you will see more of this happen with budget cuts because schools won't be able to afford Coaches for all the sports. Alot of Coaches in Western Kansas already Coach Jr High and High school!!
If I was one of the AD's I would tell all of the CLUB WRESTLERS to "Get Bent". I officiated a dual in Ark City and Ark City was the only school that had all of its Club Wrestlers wrestling for the School. Shame on Maize, Haysville, Goddard and any other club that allows their wrestlers to wrestle for the club instead of the school. Why should these schools care what the clubs want when the clubs are not supporting the schools? The eight week school season is not going to hurt your wrestler, especially if everyone in the club goes out for the school team. Not participating, does hurt the school program.
I wonder if it is Daddy's not being able to give up power, fear, or just good ole fashioned apathy. Either way it is very disappointing to see the lack of school spirit and support.
You all wonder why the school charges you to use the facilities, maybe it is because you don't support or help them. Ark City has never been charged to use facilities for tournaments, but then we support our schools.
I am not sure on where all the MS stuff stands, but I would like to throw and example out there for Beeson, 2 MS kids came out after their season was done, one had 2 losses in MS the other had 1 loss. Neither won a match at district. So explain why when we have all traveled all over the country to find the tough places to wrestle we would settle for the lack of competition just because it is "with the school"
When your boy spends 8 weeks crushin kids in the first, I hope he doesn't regress.
I am not sure on where all the MS stuff stands, but I would like to throw and example out there for Beeson, 2 MS kids came out after their season was done, one had 2 losses in MS the other had 1 loss. Neither won a match at district. So explain why when we have all traveled all over the country to find the tough places to wrestle we would settle for the lack of competition just because it is "with the school"
When your boy spends 8 weeks crushin kids in the first, I hope he doesn't regress.
For every example such as the one you list I can think of an example of a multiple X high school state champion that did wrestle for their middle school team. Apparently they didn't seem to "regress" any during those 8 weeks.
I am not sure on where all the MS stuff stands, but I would like to throw and example out there for Beeson, 2 MS kids came out after their season was done, one had 2 losses in MS the other had 1 loss. Neither won a match at district. So explain why when we have all traveled all over the country to find the tough places to wrestle we would settle for the lack of competition just because it is "with the school"
When your boy spends 8 weeks crushin kids in the first, I hope he doesn't regress.
For every example such as the one you list I can think of an example of a multiple X high school state champion that did wrestle for their middle school team. Apparently they didn't seem to "regress" any during those 8 weeks.
In what league?
The other leagues I would agree with you, but the Pioneer League I would bet is different.
I am not sure on where all the MS stuff stands, but I would like to throw and example out there for Beeson, 2 MS kids came out after their season was done, one had 2 losses in MS the other had 1 loss. Neither won a match at district. So explain why when we have all traveled all over the country to find the tough places to wrestle we would settle for the lack of competition just because it is "with the school"
When your boy spends 8 weeks crushin kids in the first, I hope he doesn't regress.
For every example such as the one you list I can think of an example of a multiple X high school state champion that did wrestle for their middle school team. Apparently they didn't seem to "regress" any during those 8 weeks.
In what league?
The other leagues I would agree with you, but the Pioneer League I would bet is different.
You might want to do some checking, one of the more notable ones came from your own middle school/high school!
Forget the exceptions...
In GENERAL, if you have an experienced wrestler he will NOT get any better during MS wrestling. The only decent matches come from USA Kids wrestlers that meet up in a MS format. The larger percentage of MS wrestlers and coaches (not targeting head HS coaches who are pulling double duty) do not have a good foundation of basics. I don't think MS is a bad thing to get kids out that otherwise would never try the sport but experienced wrestlers DO NOT gain from this level of participation. Just the facts...
Logan Terril wrestled Middle School...State Runner-up in High School. Colby Watters 4X Placer....Middle School. Wyatt Villers Jr. 2x Placer....Middle School. Cody Eastman Jr. 2X Placer...Middle School. 95% of Ark City Wrestlers over the last 30 years...WRESTLED MIDDLE SCHOOL. Justin Ware, The Hernandez Brothers, Scotty Goodale, Brooks Travis, The Bahm Brothers, The Hankins Brothers...2 of Ark City's 4X State Champions, and All of the 3x State Champions wrestled Middle School...Hard to Argue those Facts.
The list of state champions from USA kids would be 10 times as long as the Ark City only list that you have provided. It is undeniable that Kids club wrestlers face tougher competition. This is really not debatable.
The Pioneer Middle School League meeting takes place May 16, 2012. Make sure all the AD's know that moving the season to before Christmas is supported by everyone. Split seasons are also desired based on money and gym shortages. Now to address some of the issues that have occurred. Mr. Cokeley your facts are preceded by you stating it is your "feeling". You also use generalizations of all middle school wrestling coaches so those are by no means facts. As for Chief's list. You could add just this year Miles Johns and Dillon Archer to the list of State champs that wrestled both years of middle school wrestling. However, you are right kids do face tougher competition in USA wrestling but that is not to say that we don't have an opportunity to make the Pioneer league a very competitive and fun league too. Now, as for will a middle school program help or hurt a wrestler..? It all depends on the wrestler and the program. I say, just ask the former wrestlers of that program, they will be honest...
Coach Werner
Newton Middle School
Middle school wrestlers can face better competition if their parents have the means to travel to find it. During the Pioneer League season here in southcentral Kansas the USAW competition is very limited at the district 2 tournaments.
The list of state champions from USA kids would be 10 times as long as the Ark City only list that you have provided. It is undeniable that Kids club wrestlers face tougher competition. This is really not debatable.
Of Course the State List will be longer...but will the percentage be higher? I doubt it. 95% of Ark City's State Champions wrestled Middle School. I would bet the States list is more around 50%-65% that wrestled Kids.
I truly believe that it is imperative to get your kids to wrestle MS and be a part of a TEAM, yeah you might miss a "tough" tournament or two, but the end product (6 years worth) of program building is invaluable. Missing two tournaments is nothing, there are so many opportunities to get your kid to super tuff stuff individually that I don't see the argument. My kid will not get to go to a few RMN events next year big deal, he will still go to Salina, Hutch, Hays, state tournament series, FS/GR stuff, southern plains, northern plains, maybe Utah, and hopefully some of the National dual stuff, how much more does an individual need. The payoff for the program to have your best kids wrestle MS is huge. Now odviously this is more important for a one program town, like Hugoton or Ark City or Colby (no I really did not just compare us to Ark or Colby) but I believe my point is valid. If you are from one of these super clubs that feeds like 50 different HS then priorities change a little. (of course I think I would try to get all those studs to go to the same MS/HS)
Logan Terril wrestled Middle School...State Runner-up in High School. Colby Watters 4X Placer....Middle School. Wyatt Villers Jr. 2x Placer....Middle School. Cody Eastman Jr. 2X Placer...Middle School. 95% of Ark City Wrestlers over the last 30 years...WRESTLED MIDDLE SCHOOL. Justin Ware, The Hernandez Brothers, Scotty Goodale, Brooks Travis, The Bahm Brothers, The Hankins Brothers...2 of Ark City's 4X State Champions, and All of the 3x State Champions wrestled Middle School...Hard to Argue those Facts.
I believe some of the aforementioned wrestlers didn't really believe MS wrestling was enough either as they ventured down to TN during AC's MS season... ALL of these wrestlers wrestled outside of MS as well (beyond the prescribed MS season). I think Coach Mahan hit it on the head, if you are in a metro area the SUPER club is a way better situation. Neither Reese nor Ryne participated in the MS program at the public MS they attended. It was their choice to attend club practice and go to tournaments that were availbable. Sammy participated in MS wrestling and was the only undefeated wrestler in a combined (7th and 8th) team. They wrestled about 12 matches and I think he had 9 pins. He had to skip 6 weeks of club practice and five tournaments as their league only had one Saturday event. He DID NOT qualify for Kids State this year. He had a good coach (he is also the head HS coach) but the competition was very under prepared. I would like to see all of you who are supporters of the MS programs go to your AD's and battle to release the KSHSAA control over MS wrestling. Most of these leagues and programs DO NOT wrestle on weekends so why shouldn't these kids be allowed to LEGALLY do both? If a kid wants to practice with his friends at school and then go to club practice why not? There are NO good arguments against these questions!! The seasons are inconsistent, team scores are often not kept, weight classes are completely ignored for the most part, and having these options would improve the overall situation trememdously. I agree with Coach Mahan's points regarding the need to build your program and I think those HS coaches who are pulling double duty are doing exactly that and I believe they would support both of those proposals.
(Coach Werner, I fixed my earlier post.

We can put examples of kids who did BOTH all day long. They are motivated to be the best. Where are the examples of the Kids who JUST wrestled MS and went on to be HS state placers.)
So kids that don't wrestle middle school won't understand what it means to be part of a team? I find this totally ludicrous. My son totally gets the team concept and probably has a better understanding and appreciation than most kids his age. He has attended our team camp and summer workouts. My point is that you don't have to do middle school just for sole purpose of the team thing. If the individual takes care of business on the mat then the team is taken care of. I also think that it should be up to your son or daughter to decide whether or not they wrestle in middle school. My son wrestled his 7th grade year and mid-way thru the season he told me he didn't want to wrestle his 8th grade year. Someone on here said that "the payoff for the program to have your best kids wrestle MS is huge", what is the payoff? I wish everyone luck that is deciding what to do next year. Remember let your son or daughter decide! They are the ones wrestling not you..
So kids that don't wrestle middle school won't understand what it means to be part of a team? I find this totally ludicrous. My son totally gets the team concept and probably has a better understanding and appreciation than most kids his age. He has attended our team camp and summer workouts. My point is that you don't have to do middle school just for sole purpose of the team thing. If the individual takes care of business on the mat then the team is taken care of. I also think that it should be up to your son or daughter to decide whether or not they wrestle in middle school. My son wrestled his 7th grade year and mid-way thru the season he told me he didn't want to wrestle his 8th grade year. Someone on here said that "the payoff for the program to have your best kids wrestle MS is huge", what is the payoff? I wish everyone luck that is deciding what to do next year. Remember let your son or daughter decide! They are the ones wrestling not you..
So what do the kids that choose to wrestle middle school learn about team when they see others that feel they are above them doing otherwise? What are they to think when the kid who might help them improve is not in the room with THEIR team on a daily basis? How is the lesser kid supposed to get better? Are they now required to quit wrestling for their team, school and community and travel in order to improve themselves?
As I have said in the past, no matter how much people like Beeson and I and others preach it, some people will never understand the true meaning of TEAM!
So what do the kids that choose to wrestle middle school learn about team when they see others that feel they are above them doing otherwise?
They will aspire to improve their skills to reach that level!
What are they to think when the kid who might help them improve is not in the room with THEIR team on a daily basis?
They are to think about the goal of improving to that level!
How is the lesser kid supposed to get better? Are they now required to quit wrestling for their team, school and community and travel in order to improve themselves?
Certainly not required, but they will then know that there is tougher competition out there!
As I have said in the past, no matter how much people like Beeson and I and others preach it, some people will never understand the true meaning of TEAM!
Their kids club is a team. The dual events are teams. Their high school they will attend is a team. Who doesn't understand teams?
So what do the kids that choose to wrestle middle school learn about team when they see others that feel they are above them doing otherwise? What are they to think when the kid who might help them improve is not in the room with THEIR team on a daily basis? How is the lesser kid supposed to get better? Are they now required to quit wrestling for their team, school and community and travel in order to improve themselves?
As I have said in the past, no matter how much people like Beeson and I and others preach it, some people will never understand the true meaning of TEAM!
Yet you can only teach as fast as your slowest student... To me a club is like a team and for the most part MS wrestling is largely unnoticed by the communities they are in. My proposal to open up MS wrestling from the rediculous regulatory rules would accomplish both goals. Can you support that Sports? Furthermore, if we are going to REALLY understand the TRUE meaning of team for wrestling we need to have a DUAL state. Our current system really only, truly, recognizes the best INDIVIDUALS not the best "teams".
I feel that middle school wrestling is crucial to expose the school and community to wrestling. Kids participate in wrestling that may not otherwise wrestle kids due to cost, exposure... Many of these kids mature and grow into important contributors for their high school team. HOWEVER, kids club is absolutely the most important factor for kids learning and excelling in wrestling. Middle school is a taste of wrestling and is important. I encourage our experienced middle school kids to join our "club" at Prairie Trail in Olathe. No, they don't learn advanced technique and we stick to the basics but they are leaders in the room and can work with others to improve and learn. It is important for their future teammates to see them as leaders and the experienced ones learn by leading and teaching. Now I will say that our club is not sponsored by the KSHSAA and those kids can then workout and compete wherever they like on top of participating at our school. Win win for the Olathe schools that have started wrestling clubs in their feeder middle schools.
I think Cokeley had this one right! Let the middle school kids wrestle weekend club tournaments where there is no conflict. I have to disagree with a lot of the team comments. One of the reasons I wrestled was because it was an individual sport, win or lose it is on the individual. I know the come backs some of you will have about being on a good team can make the individual better so save it! At the end of each match one guy gets his hand raised and the victory is his alone! Beyond helping your team wrestling is about depending on yourself!
My proposal to open up MS wrestling from the rediculous regulatory rules would accomplish both goals.
Someone who chooses not to support middle school sports, asking for a change in the rules, is like a non-voter who wants to bitch about who gets elected to public office.
Can you support that Sports?
No I can't. As I have stated on the same issue where it concerns high schoolers participating in non-KSHSAA sponsored events in-season. I oppose this for the same reasons. Those who currently choose not to support their middle schools would simply find another reason to take their kid elsewhere.
It is easy to be a team member when it benefits ME and MINE. It is more difficult being a team member when it requires sacrifice of same.
Cokeley started and runs the Middle School State Tournament. Your post is comical Sport.
I see nothing wrong with middle school kids wrestling at kids tournaments on the weekends or practicing with the club team. For kids with experience middle school wrestling is a joke. The competition is mainly at the novice level.
Sports,
I support ALL sports and teams. I just want to improve things. How can you achieve excellence if you don't keep pushing yourself? I propose a "win-win" solution and you don't even debate the pros I have offered up you simply say I am non supporter? Where does that come from?? I am not in favor or regulations that restrict those from being allowed to pursue excellence. If allowed to do both club and MS you will have greater success at the MS level, without doubt. Why wouldn't we want that? KSHSAA MS wrestling has NO state qualifier series, no real regulation(s) other than being restricted from practicing outside of the school practice and participating in non school sponsered events. At this point MS wrestling is a glorified intramural program but it could become something much greater. However, without change there can be no improvement.
I would love to see what you are asking for to happen....but....If not I am not taking my ball and going home....I will play by the rules and still be succesful.
Both of my boys wrestled middle school, they were lucky to have quality coaches and their season runs from oct thru early dec so the only tourny they miss is the kickoff, tucker had 21 matches during middle school and improved alot with the added bonus of being with his friends everyday after school.
Will i dont know if you can say that sammy wrestling middle school is why he didnt make it to state this year, 3 of the 4 that went to state from D1 at his weight placed and the other was 1 match away if i remember correctly.
I think middle school is a positive for us, but i dont know how i would feel about it if their season was late in the year.
"At the end of each match one guy gets his hand raised and the victory is his alone!"
I could not disagree more. I think wrestling is the ultimate team sport. You can not practice without a partner. No matter how talented you are the tougher the room the better you are going to be. Which is most of the argument for those of you who think tough experienced kids should wrestle club rather than MS. How often do you see a program with only 2 or 3 good kids and they are always around the same weight.
"For kids with experience middle school wrestling is a joke. The competition is mainly at the novice level"
That is primarily because the best kids available are not wrestling MS. How tough is that MS state tournaemnt? pretty decent right, get the best of the top of 12s and bottom of 14s nice mix...how about a league or 6 weeks of wrestling those kids.
I agree with Will 1000% on not restricting MS kids. Classic KSHSAA to have the only regulation of any kind on something be restrictive only. Yes it would be nice if KSHSAA would change several of the assanine things that they hamstring us with, but......probalby not going to happen...and this may be the chip on the shoulder talking, but alot of KSHSAA stuff hurts small, rural schools worse...ie Freestyle - who is going to run a FS program in Hugoton, KS???
lastly - how do you do that thing where you box quotes from previous posts?
how do you do that thing where you box quotes from previous posts?
Go to FAQ, then to "What UBBCode can I use in my posts?"
My son tried middle school wrestling in 7th grade. He wrestled 10 matches and got 6 penalty calls against him for being too rough. He was wrestling like he did at Tulsa and other tournaments where you have to be at that level to survive. I pulled him after 10 matches and he went back and wrestled club. If was not the right fit for him.
On the other hand one of my very good friends kids wanted to try wrestling and MS wrestling was perfect for him to get started in the sport. So it's different for different kids.
My point would be everyone wants top kids to participate, but the rules and the culture is not set up for it. If you really want top kids to participate then KSHSAA needs to open it up as many others have stated. That would be a major start. Why is it that we are asking only the top kids to sacrifice? They have sacrificed with hours of blood, sweat and tears. We are wanting all the benefits for the newer kids, and that would be wonderful. But in real life to ask the kids that have done the work to get to a higher level, to give up club competition, and be asked to dumb down there level of activity, for sake of learning the team concept is too much in many cases. There are alot of other chances to learn "team" concepts. Clearly the newer kids are not involved enough in wrestling to ask more of them. Heck many are just trying the sport out. And that is awesome, but call it what it is. A great learning ground for basic wrestling and having fun. Those are two wonderful things. Many Middle school meets in east KS don't even keep team score so that is not the driving benefit. And kids can get that from middle school duals, etc.
You can say that top kids not participating, produces wrestlers or families that feel they are better than others and don't fit into the team concept or help others, but that is crap. My son volunteered more time that almost any kid I know to help others in wrestling. Little kids, big kids, newer kids, it didn't matter...But not at the cost of him not being able to get some of what he needed. Heck that 7th grade year, myself and my son worked a couple nights a week in our basement, with his buddies from the MS team to help them. And he was not even on the team anymore. Those are some the kids that are now helping the HS team.
My point is there is no one answer. My belief is do what is right for your kid and balance that with what is right for the team. The key word is balance.
Just my two cents.
Here is what i would like explained, why is it not harmful to an 11-12 year old sixth grade student to participate in Jr High volleyball, basketball, or track while at the same time participating in the same activity at the "club" level with all of the outside coaching and competition they want yet when they hit 7th through 12th grade it is too much. Kind of seems like a double standard to me but it happens all the time.
I would love to see what you are asking for to happen....but....If not I am not taking my ball and going home....I will play by the rules and still be succesful.
If you lived in my neighborhood you would be taking Jake to EKWC and there would be no Beeson on the DeSoto MS wrestling team. I would bet BIG money on that. Which, by the way, is still within the rules.
What gets me is that I have a ton of kids on our track team that leave track to go to soccer, baseball, basketball, etc... They cannot go to a Hershey Track meet though... They can play 30 baseball games, 10 soccer games and run track for their school but they can't attend a private track event? Same issue with wrestling.
The KSHSAA issue is over-extending kids but it only applies if it's the same sport. Meanwhile we have injured kids who's parents can't figure out why they have injuries... "I'm not sure why Billy is so sore, he is only running track, playing baseball and soccer."
Stupid.
I would love to see what you are asking for to happen....but....If not I am not taking my ball and going home....I will play by the rules and still be succesful.
If you lived in my neighborhood you would be taking Jake to EKWC and there would be no Beeson on the DeSoto MS wrestling team. I would bet BIG money on that. Which, by the way, is still within the rules.
I'd take that bet...your gonnna regret...I'm the best that's ever been :-)
Just a couple of thoughts I want to express then move on because this argument could go on and on... First off, I never ever was trying to imply that middle school wrestling alone will make champions. I am blessed year after year with some great club kids. I am just saying that wrestling in middle school won't hurt. I find it a little humorous that the two guys arguing on behalf of middle school wrestling are from Ark City and Newton... the top two teams in 5A from this year. However, let me just say that some of you earlier stated that it is just not the right fit for your kid and you may be right. I just would appreciate people making their minds up using the right reasons and not for the wrong reason such as just because the parents don't like it. Let these kids do what they want to do and many of them want to be a part of the team that they will stick with hopefully all through high school. Finally, remember what this thread was started for and that was to change the pioneer league to an early season. Lets get this on the table at the league meeting and make sure you are e-mailing your A.D.'s and making your feelings known. Sorry if your not in the Pioneer league but this is just to good of opportunity to let slip by. I promise it will elevate wrestling as a whole in the metro area... If it doesn't... I will let everyone on this forum that disagreed with me punch me one time in the gut.