What FS/GR rules could be put in to Folkstyle....?
-pushout rule
-winning by periods (would be difficult with ref position & choice)
I like the push out rule for folk style! It was create more action and this would be one like commonality between the styles.
The push out rule would help w/ stalling and how about taping ring worm instead of disqualification, especially at regionals and state.
I like the push out rule for folkstyle. Also, how about the down position? After so long they go back to their feet instead of spending the whole period on the mat?
I would also like to see the roundhouse kick brought back into play.
-Push out would be awesome!
-I agree on the ring worm as well. Cover it up don't DQ. It's no different than athletes foot. You can cover that up and wrestle!
i HATE the push out rule in any style, but I do agree the skin rule would be nice to just cover up and continue
... I also wouldn't mind some 5point tosses in folk style, in the older kids of course
The push-out rule creates action! It makes you wrestle on the edge. There is not 15 restarts per match, kids backing out of bounds, or controversy on the edge. Adding the pushout rule would cut at least an hour from all day tournaments, make the officials job easier, and help close the gap between freestyle and folkstyle. It makes sense!
Brandon Jobe
and help close the gap between freestyle and folkstyle. It makes sense!
Brandon Jobe
We want to cut the gap between folkstyle and less popular style?
I've been slowly persuading myself that the push-out rule being brought over to folkstyle is a good thing. I'm not absolutely sure but the more I think about it the more I like it. The problem with adapting to the international styles is that they tweak the rules so often it's hard to keep up....that I hate! I haven't put much thought to winning by periods (like fs) but I'm more hesitant with that. While it does create action every period I think it also would tend to create action then staling every period. You're more likely to sit on a lead when you only have to get to the end of the period. Coach Craig...I hate the thought of minimizing the importance of mat wrestling. We had that for a long time up until the last few years. Now most of the good wrestlers can wrestle all three positions effectively. Now the roundhouse kick...that would really bring some excitement to the mat! Ha! If we are really trying to make wrestling more exciting it would be bringing it closer to MMA....not freestyle. Not that I am an advocate for that.
When I say that the importance of mat wrestling was minimized I'm referring to the take 'em down...let 'em up style that dominated in the 90's and 2000's. It's the refs job to make the top man work for the turn/fall. Mat wrestling is only boring when that isn't enforced.
It's the refs job to make the top man work for the turn/fall.
The same could be said of backing up or stalling from the neutral position. If wrestling on the edge is a problem it can be fixed with better training of our officials. There used to be an official that would routinely, in state finals matches, whistle the first wrestler who backed up, in the first period. This after, like many officals, never whistling stalling until the 3rd period of all matches leading up to the finals. I didn't understand what the difference was in the finals and all the matches leading up to that point. Myself, I don't want to see wrestlers attempting to push each other out of bounds in order to gain a point. I want to see takedowns regardless of where or when they occur, as well as mat wrestling. If I want to watch push-outs I'll go watch Sumo wrestling.
Maybe I'm watching the wrong teams or classes or wrestling but it doesn't appear to me that there is anywhere near the amount of backing up or wrestling on the edge as there was in years past.
Good point. I think you have a valid concern of it turning into a "rhino" match in less skilled wrestlers too. Re-directing a hard charging rhino doesn't take a ton of skill though and I think wrestlers would quickly adapt. I had the exact same reservations the first time I heard it proposed. The stalling rule as it stands is so subjective that you'll see officials call this from one extreme to the other. The more we can take officials out of the mix the better. There would still be bad calls on step-outs but it isn't nearly as subjective. The other thing that hasn't been discussed...I think the push out should only be applied to neutral wrestling. I'm still not totally sold either but it's an interesting concept to think about.
You havn't watched many freestyle matches if you think the push out rule is like sumo wrestling. It CREATES action, forces you to wrestle on the edge, and INCREASES the number of takedowns awarded in a match.
Brandon Jobe
Okay...guilty! I haven't watched that many freestyle matches since the rule has went into effect. I think it creates action when it's skilled wrestlers. Now...imagine a couple average high school heavyweights...it's gonna have some Sumo resemblance! I still think it would create more action and be more entertaining than a double collar tie dance.
Doesn't a couple average high school heavyweights already resemble Sumo wrestling? At least there might be more points on the board, and force someone to score!
Forget the pushout, go to one supporting point to make it more like college and get them ready for the next level. They can work on their pushouts during the summer months. Folkstyle emphasizes and rewards mat wrestling, freestyle does not. Why should we mold our rules to favor another style?
Freestyle rewards the aggressive wrestler, folkstyle frequently does not. Adding the push out rule would in NO WAY decrease the manner in which folkstyle rewards mat wrestling. If you believe it does, please explain. From what I saw in some state finals, having the push out rule would stop the wrestler who is ahead from getting an escape and running out of bounds on every good shot by the other wrestler. If would force him to keep wrestling. And, I understand what you are saying in that freestyle does not emphasise mat wrestling in the same manner as folkstyle, well adding the push out rule in and of itself, would not change that. You would still not put both wrestlers up if nothing happens in 15 seconds or so and you would still not allow locked hands and an escape would still be a point.
However, your point of allowing one supporting point is good, almost like takedowns in freestyle.
We should mold our rules to make the sport more exciting, and more fan friendly. Takedowns are exciting, fans come to see that. The average fan is bored with riding. Riding time is killing college wrestling. If we really want to promote our sport, keep wrestlers in bounds, and force them to wrestle.
I agree the college out of bounds rule would be an improvement. If any body part is in, it's a takedown. I'm sure the officials would love it.
Brandon Jobe
If you added the pushout. It would not make sense to allow pushout in a top/bottom position. You would only be able to do it when both wrestlers are on their feet. In folkstyle you are trying to escape for 1 point advantage but in freestlyle/greco you do not.
Part of what makes each style great is that they are different, so I am not sold on the pushout in highschool. Maybe in college but not in high school. Let's teach our youth how to wrestle and not to just push someone out of bounds. Which I think would happen in a lot of high schools if push out rule was added.
Adding a pushout rule is NOT going to turn wrestling into a pushing contest. It will CREATE pressure, which leads to MORE takedowns. You guys are so focused on the pushout alone. Focus on what it creates. When someone is pushing hard, it creates shot, throwing, snap, ect. opportunities. It makes you wrestle! There's nowhere to hide.
Brandon Jobe
Riding time is not killing college wrestling. If anything it creates a sense of urgency for the bottom wrestler to escape. Where otherwise the urgency is not there, as we see in high school matches all the time.
From the average fan's perspective, it is killing college wrestling. They don't want to watch someone get 4 minutes of riding time. Many college wrestlers are just trying to get that 1 minute of riding time, and are not working for near fall, or a fall. That's the truth.
I can appreciate riding time, and the techniques and mental toughness it requires. But, if we want to promote the sport, make it more exciting, and put more people in the stands, it's not the way to go.
Brandon Jobe
Push out at its highest level creates action and I think seeing this we assume it would be the same in high school.
Can you imagine watching 2 first year wrestlers in JV competition with a push out rule enforced. That is all they would do and or focus on.
so people aren't in the stands because of riding time? If anything I see more and more people in the stands at college wrestling events. Venues are getting sold out at certain college duals. the NCAA Championships sold out and one of the few college championships to make a profit.
BJObe,
I agree that we need to close the gap between Folkstyle and Freestyle, this in return would continue to close the gap between USA and other countries. As far as the push out rule, I continue to be on the fence with this one. As I was watching the Olympics I seen the world class athletes use this to what appeared to me as being lazy. They would get in a on a deep shot, and intstead of working hard to finish it, they would just push them out of bounds. Dont get me wrong if I was at that level and had the chance to get quick cheap points I would do it as well. But when it comes to amateur level I am afraid you are going to see someone shoot a single leg, elevate it and just run the opponent out of bounds rather than take them to the mat with hard work. I am for riding time in the HS level. I believe it would promote movement on bottom, of course the officials would need to be willing to call stalling on the top guy for just riding the hips, 2 on 1 etc......(but that another topic).
The next rule in high school needing to be enforced is using college out of bounds rules. This one needs to happen and would create the action we all want.
Then there is the other thing that isn't being discussed. Can our sport really attract a large fan base in anything similar to it's current form? That is what the NWCA is shooting for with the new team title approach as well. Maybe, just maybe....it will always be wrestlers, old wrestlers, their family and friends. If a larger fan base is the NWCA's goal or any other organization why is there not more of an effort put into finding out what the casual sports fan thinks about wrestling, instead of speculation about what we think would attract them to watch our sports. I've never seen a lick of data backing up any of these proposals. I've heard on more than one occasion casual sports fans comments about "weird uniforms". Maybe the MMA style top and shorts would have as big of an impact as any rule change. I realize I'm a little off topic but it seems like a continuation of the thread.
I agree it would be nice to get more fans to attend wrestling or become interested in wrestling. I have had a couple of ideas with this. One starts with the power house colleges doing their best to promote this on national TV. Everywhere you look you see College Football, College Baseketball, College LaCrosse, but very rarely do you catch a College wrestling tournament on TV. Another thing may help is (this is a far stretch) having a pro league for wrestlers after college. I know they can travel and wrestle world events, and natinal events, but if their was some type of league, that could showcase these wrestlers on a more consistent basis it may help. I have read before that some of the other countries have "pro" leagues where these wrestlers could get paid, (Ie: NFL, NHL, NBA). I know this would be very difficult to do, but may help with popularity. Just some thoughts.
People are not in the stands because of riding time, exactly my point. People that come to wrestling duals/tournament come because they are wrestling people. I'm talking about drawing a crowd that knows nothing about wrestling, and wants to be entertained. Riding time is boring, big double legs, throws, scoring points is exciting. You don't see college wrestling on TV because the general public does NOT want to watch a 7 minute match with 4 minutes of riding time.
Brandon Jobe
I GOT IT!!!
Lets just drop folkstyle and wrestle only freestyle and greco at all levels. This would for sure close the gap at the world level. We are one of the only countries that wrestle folkstyle anyway. And there would be more throws, and a quicker paced match for people to enjoy. Of course the scoring is harder to understand, since there are multiple officials making different scoring decisions.
JMO
Let's all agree....Greco is the most boring of all! I was bored watching the Olympics matches and I love wrestling in any form.
I think marketing/promotional efforts could probably do more to promote the sport than any rule changes. Geyer...some folks tried to do the Real Pro Wrestling and I think there was another outfit and they didn't take off.
Jobe...You will never hear me say riding is boring. I realize it probably is to most people but you'll never hear it out of my mouth.
I actually think that the most exciting style is Greco with its arching throws and the athleticism required to perform them. I know that at the Olympic finals it can be less flashy because of the high skill level and the equality of ability, but in general I think it is the most entertaining.
Them taking away the par terre clinch took a lot of the throws away at the high school level, but at the Junior or Cadet duals, all you have to do is listen to the number of OOOO's and AAHH's during Greco vs. Freestyle to tell which is more exciting.
I like the idea of the pushout rule being added to Folkstyle. There is one perspective that hasn't been talked about that I think would keep folkstyle matches from becoming pushout contests....
In freestyle a pushout and a takedown earn the same reward....1 point.
In folkstyle, I would recommend keeping the takedown worth 2 points and keep the pushout as 1 point. This would encourage wrestlers to try and score takedowns vice just pushing the opponent out of bounds. The risk of attempting a takedown would be worth it.
Shawn Budke
out of 20 matches how many of them actually end up with 4 minutes of riding time? 2-3 maybe. Matches aren't boring because of riding. They are boring because a wrestler or both wrestlers aren't getting after it. Any fan of any sport that gives wrestling a chance can appreciate a quality effort on the mat.
I could watch Kyle Dake ride for 6 minutes and be entertained, because he is getting after it. It's all about athletes leaving it out on the mat. If you took away riding time that would not change. You will still have the kids getting after it and those that are happy being there. You can find these situations in any sport.
What about a kid that never takes a single shot an entire match but stays in good position and wins out a 1-0 "nailbiter". It's going to happen. Even though they were neutral for 6:30 it still was not any more entertaining than watching a 4 min ride out.
Close the gap? The USA took the bronze as a team in Freestyle this year. 1 win away from first place. I don't know that we are too far off. I know the greco team is a different story but they did win a world title a few years back.
I agree that we have closed the gap. I forgot to add the word "continue" to close the gap. I realize that we have closed the gap a lot from years ago, but we need to continue to close that gap, and perhaps make us a gap away from the world, as we are in many other sports.
I think that the pushout rule would be a positive change for folkstyle wrestling, but only from the neutral position. As I saw someone else posted earlier, I would hate to see the bottom wrestler penalized for attemptint to escape and being escorted OB by the top guy. In terms of mat wrestling, our officials would need to be trained in recognizing when loss of control happens, when the wrestlers are establisted in a neutral position, and then whether or not a legitimate pushout occurred...all of this happening on the edge in real time could increase the number of subjective points awarded by officials.
Another point that I think needs addressing is, lets be honest, this would be a big boy rule. I don't see too many little guy matches that are pushing contests. Little guy matches are the exciting ones because they are fast, agile and are always moving to either score or defend takedowns. Big boys are a different story. As a former HWT wrestler (still a HWT, not so much a wrestler), I can honestly admit to NEVER wanting to shoot for a takedown. I was content, as many HWTs are, at tying up hands and working for inside position with the intent of locking up the body or simple going for OT. If I had wrestled with a pushout rule in place, with as many times as I was pushed out, I would have HAD to open up my offense and take more risks, thus adding more excitement to my matches. A pushout rule would definately increase the offensive approach to wrestling at the upper weights.
Also, pushing someone out of the circle is not as easy as it may sound. There is an art to it, both on the offensive side and the defensive side. It is not simply lock up and drive like lineman on a sled...the other guy doesn't just stand there. For example, I know there is a guy at Free State that would invite any wrestler to try to push him out...because as soon as it happened they'd be tossed on their head and stuck! (On a side note, I hope that Spencer's rehab is going well...looking forward to seeing him toss some guys around this year!) There is a skill and an athleticism required to be able to push an opponent out and visa versa, to keeep from getting pushed out. I know its freestlyle, but look at Varner's Gold medal match...which was won on a counter to a pushout attempt.
I really feel the pushout rule would be a benefit to folkstyle wrestling because it would, as Coach Jobe has stated, create more action and offense. As with any rule change, there would be issues with consistancy in officiating. Keep 2pts for a takedown and 1pt for a pushout, and the action would increase.
Just my 2 cents on what has turned into an awesome debate!
Riding time is much more objective than the current HS riding system where you are depending on an official to consitently call stalling. An official who many times has never wrestled a match in his life but is supposed to understand what stalling is.
College out of bounds would be the best. Not only the rule itself but the philosophy. HS officials LOOK to call out of bounds. The best wrestling happens on the edge. LET THEM WRESTLE!!
The rule that allows the official to arbitraily restart wrestling based on his judgement is one that needs to be round filed. If they are in bounds and it isn't a stalemate then LET THEM WRESTLE. It is clearly and advantage to the defensive wrestler to get a restart.
I like FS and GR but without passivity it has turned into score a point and run or defend your butt off and hope to get choice. There is LESS action in FS than at any other time I can ever remember.
If you're going to change anything to do with the out-of-bounds line in folkstyle wrestling then make high school the same as college. Any part of the body that is still in-bounds then keep wrestling. Some of the best scrambles in college wrestling take place by the out-of-bounds line. For example,
Burrough vs. Poeta.
One of the problems with adding the push out rule to folkstyle is the "who went out first" argument. The glory of freestyle is having 3 man mechanics and instant replay. That makes it easier when calls could go either way. You can't add that to folkstyle unless you want to start having 3 day tournaments.
Let's all agree....Greco is the most boring of all! I was bored watching the Olympics matches and I love wrestling in any form.
I think marketing/promotional efforts could probably do more to promote the sport than any rule changes. Geyer...some folks tried to do the Real Pro Wrestling and I think there was another outfit and they didn't take off.
Jobe...You will never hear me say riding is boring. I realize it probably is to most people but you'll never hear it out of my mouth.
I just want to make sure I disagree for the record.

At the senior level in the medal rounds, FS and GR are boring because they do not call passivity but in schoolboys, cadets, and juniors the GR throws are the most exciting part of the summer. When a wrestler gets a 5 for basically slamming his opponent, it doesn't get any better than that!