Kansas Wrestling
Posted By: elid2 open rooms - 01/07/13 07:14 PM
Can high school or middle school wrestlers go to open practice rooms put on by kids club teams?
Posted By: Beeson Re: open rooms - 01/07/13 07:15 PM
Unfortunately NO
Posted By: doug747 Re: open rooms - 01/07/13 07:58 PM
Not during the high school or middle school seasons...
Posted By: Jeff Smith Re: open rooms - 01/07/13 08:50 PM
While this is definitely true for high school wrestlers, middle school wrestling is a different animal. Bottom line I would encourage every middle school wrestler to seek out and take part in any opportunity to better themselves and the Brawlers’ open room is one of the best! In fact I would also, when there isn’t a school conflict or strict instructions from their coach, recommend middle school wrestlers compete in both their middle school program and club tourneys. The upside far outweighs the down side. Feel free to PM or call me if you want details.
Posted By: doug747 Re: open rooms - 01/07/13 08:59 PM
I hope you are correct in implying that you can do open rooms during middle school.
Posted By: Jeff Smith Re: open rooms - 01/07/13 09:16 PM
Keep this in mind with respect to MS wrestling. There are no formal dual/meet records kept and there are no qualifying tourneys at the end of the year. It is looked at totally different than HS. Had the Pioneer League here locally recognized the benefit of an early season this wouldn't even have been brought up. Shame on them!
Posted By: GregMann Re: open rooms - 01/07/13 09:18 PM
KSHSAA Handbook Rule 22 (page 34): "Outside Competition" prohibits the practice of wrestling in school and kids tournaments during the season of sport. The rule applies to students in grades 7-12.

From Labor Day through the Friday before Memorial Day a student who is a member of his school team may NOT compete as a member of an outside team or as an independent competitor in outside competition in the same sport.

A student becomes a member of a school team when he/she first participates in a practice session.

it is true Middle Schools have no set season of sport as do high schools; meaning middle schools could play football in the spring if they wanted to. . . but the restricitions on practicing and participating with outside groups while a member of a school team remain the same, regardless of the time of year.
Posted By: Jeff Smith Re: open rooms - 01/07/13 09:35 PM
While this is true, KSHSAA’s oversight of MS athletics is not their top priority. They primarily provide only guidance to the number of MS leagues across the state and very rarely become active. Fact is here locally (ICT) the quality of wrestling at the middle school is lacking and while there are other benefits in supporting your school until something is changed the risk of possibly having to have a conversation with Mark Lentz is well worth it.
Posted By: GregMann Re: open rooms - 01/07/13 10:04 PM
Don't you think it sends a real wrong message to encourage kids and coaches to not follow rules of competition?

There are penalties for not following the rules. . . beyond "having to have a conversation with Mark Lentz." While it is true the middle school violator could not be barred from participating in the "middle school state tournament" they could be declared ineligible for their middle school team. To allow them to continue to wrestle would put the team, coach and school in jepordy.
Posted By: doug747 Re: open rooms - 01/07/13 10:21 PM
Like sheep headed to slaughter....

There is something to be said about not following rules that are either useless, or prohibit someone from bettering themselves, without harming anyone else.
Posted By: GregMann Re: open rooms - 01/08/13 01:14 AM
"Rules? Don't need no stinkin' rules. . . if I don't like 'em."
Posted By: doug747 Re: open rooms - 01/08/13 01:37 AM
Did anyone say "skip middle school practice to go to open room"? Did someone advocate theft or murder?




Who gets hurt by a kid going to open room night and getting extra work in?
Posted By: sportsfan02 Re: open rooms - 01/08/13 01:57 AM
Originally Posted By: doug747

Who gets hurt by a kid going to open room night and getting extra work in?

The kid does if it is reported to KSHSAA. It has always been my understanding that penalties for such an infraction could include loss of eligibilty on the other end of their high school career.
Posted By: Jeff Smith Re: open rooms - 01/08/13 02:10 AM

Greg, when KSHSAA puts the same emphasis on middle school athletics and mandates the same season across the state as they do with high school I would then advocate following this rule. Until then we are putting kids at a disadvantage and Truth is they won't because middle school athletics is not high school. For the record if a wrestler's coach or school had an issue with their wrestler competing outside their schedule I would encourage them to respect that. Also worth noting, I've came to this opinion after witnessing for years kids electing to not support their middle school or those that do go backwards in their skills (late season). For those areas in the state that have figured out the early season is the best this discussion means little and I applaud them. For those that don't it is a very difficult decision where to wrestle. And, it shouldn't be!!
Posted By: Bauerly Re: open rooms - 01/08/13 03:16 AM
Originally Posted By: doug747

Who gets hurt by a kid going to open room night and getting extra work in?


The kid does if it is reported to KSHSAA. It has always been my understanding that penalties for such an infraction could include loss of eligibilty on the other end of their high school career.


Hey I would like to know of the A$$ that would report a kid for getting a little work in heck some or most of these kids run the other way from extra workout however the good ones don't, And I guess football must fall under a different umbrella for right now there is no hich school season for football so there should be no teams working out I will bet you I could find one come on take the bet.
Posted By: Bluto Blutarsky Re: open rooms - 01/08/13 03:39 AM
Can a kids club wrestler k through 8 participate in high school practices?
Posted By: RedStorm Re: open rooms - 01/08/13 03:40 AM
Pretty simple to me. Either join your club team and compete or join your middle school and compete. If your prodigy is too good to work with some middle school noobs and help them get better, then get far away from the program. One of the best ways for middle schoolers who have never been a part of the world's greatest sport to improve is to have them watch teammates who have some experience properly warm-up and control a match. Don't do both and encourage your child to break the rules in the process.

..and is it the kids that are electing not to support their middle schools or is it the parents? If it's the kids, then I would say you are giving your 12 year old one hell of a say in how your run your household.
Posted By: sportsfan02 Re: open rooms - 01/08/13 11:12 AM
Originally Posted By: RedStorm

..and is it the kids that are electing not to support their middle schools or is it the parents?

We've had some pretty elite kids come through our program and to a kid they have all chosen to participate with their middle school teams. But to be fair, we've always had parents who gave the kid the choice and knew the true meaning of the word "team''. The participation with the middle school team didn't seem to hurt their development or success at the high school level.
Posted By: HEADUP Re: open rooms - 01/08/13 12:30 PM
Our club/ middle school put 6 wrestlers on the Kids State podium last year. NO rules were broken, and the effect on the other kids on the MS was awesome, 45 kids out this year. 25 wrestling in the club now. ask any HS coach and he'll tell you a strong room is better than having 1 superstar.
Posted By: HEADUP Re: open rooms - 01/08/13 12:32 PM
Originally Posted By: Bauerly



Hey I would like to know of the A$$ that would report a kid for getting a little work in heck some or most of these kids run the other way from extra workout however the good ones don't, And I guess football must fall under a different umbrella for right now there is no hich school season for football so there should be no teams working out I will bet you I could find one come on take the bet.
I'd take that bet,then you'd be the A$$!
Posted By: Teamroper Re: open rooms - 01/08/13 01:00 PM
This has been a struggle for me the last two years.

When my 6th grader beat the MS league champion at state I couldn't imagine how MS would help make him better. I had a talk with him and asked him what he thought. He (a 7th grader) knew that he would see tougher matches outside the MS program and elected to stay in club.

The kids still have to enjoy it and that is what he chose so I supported it.

This year as a heavier 14U the matches aren't there in kids until the freshman come back.

We had the same talk and he want to wreslte MS this year, and I again am ok with it.

With all that being said, I have talked to the school AD and he knows that we will be hitting a few open rooms and maybe even a few in and out of state tournaments. From what I have heard from them is just like Jeff is saying there isn't any full blown investigation for MS kids by KHSSA.

I don't know how much my 8th grader will develop as a wrestler in the MS program, but I do hope that (being a experienced wrestler) he becomes a leader in the room and help other new wrestlers along and makes the group as a whole better.

Some of the other parts of the state really don't get the main part of this conversation, it is that around Wichita area (Pioneer league) they schedule for MS just started and end a week before subs. The other part of the state have been done with MS since Christmas so it is a whole different scenerio.
Posted By: doug747 Re: open rooms - 01/08/13 01:42 PM
I knew someone would twist words, and say something about skipping MS practice, to go to open room......noone said that. Extra work means just that, go to middle school practice, then hit the open room........

Drama queens.........
Posted By: Cokeley Re: open rooms - 01/08/13 04:34 PM
EVERYONE needs to push their HS AD's, principals and superintendents to have KSHSAA DEREGULATE Middle school wrestling. The rules are ridiculous and only serve to restrict kids from getting better. By rule, you cannot go to other organized practices outside of your school during the season. You cannot attend tournaments outside of the school's schedule. The MS programs serve a great purpose, to get kids introduced to wrestling who otherwise would not try it, but for kids who won't get better from those practices and events, they should be allowed to do both. There is no KSHSAA sanctioned MS state and barely ANY standards as to how the season is conducted. It needs to be deregulated as it is hurting those who want to be involved with their school and want to excel in wrestling.

All it takes is a majority of MS members pushing Mark Lentz and KSHSAA. Lets make it happen!!
Posted By: sportsfan02 Re: open rooms - 01/08/13 06:19 PM
Originally Posted By: Cokeley
EVERYONE needs to push their HS AD's, principals and superintendents to have KSHSAA DEREGULATE Middle school wrestling. The rules are ridiculous and only serve to restrict kids from getting better. By rule, you cannot go to other organized practices outside of your school during the season. You cannot attend tournaments outside of the school's schedule. The MS programs serve a great purpose, to get kids introduced to wrestling who otherwise would not try it, but for kids who won't get better from those practices and events, they should be allowed to do both. There is no KSHSAA sanctioned MS state and barely ANY standards as to how the season is conducted. It needs to be deregulated as it is hurting those who want to be involved with their school and want to excel in wrestling.

All it takes is a majority of MS members pushing Mark Lentz and KSHSAA. Lets make it happen!!

Perhaps you could show us some evidence or proof of your belief it's hurting "those" kids?
Posted By: Shelstin Re: open rooms - 01/08/13 07:02 PM
Personally, I would like to see it regulated a little more to put it all on a standard schedule before Christmas. Granted, it is a short season, but it allows the kids who want to move on the opportunity to do so while developing a team mentality. But, I still think that wrestling is a team sport.....
Posted By: Teamroper Re: open rooms - 01/08/13 07:04 PM
Originally Posted By: sportsfan02
Originally Posted By: Cokeley
EVERYONE needs to push their HS AD's, principals and superintendents to have KSHSAA DEREGULATE Middle school wrestling. The rules are ridiculous and only serve to restrict kids from getting better. By rule, you cannot go to other organized practices outside of your school during the season. You cannot attend tournaments outside of the school's schedule. The MS programs serve a great purpose, to get kids introduced to wrestling who otherwise would not try it, but for kids who won't get better from those practices and events, they should be allowed to do both. There is no KSHSAA sanctioned MS state and barely ANY standards as to how the season is conducted. It needs to be deregulated as it is hurting those who want to be involved with their school and want to excel in wrestling.

All it takes is a majority of MS members pushing Mark Lentz and KSHSAA. Lets make it happen!!

Perhaps you could show us some evidence or proof of your belief it's hurting "those" kids?


I try to answer this one,

1) Being in a room with 30 kids that are trying to learn to wrestle for the first time for 2 1/2 months.
2) Matches against these same kids for several weeks in a row and having 1-2 competative matches in the MS season
3) Not allowed to practice in open rooms for extra work
4) Not being able to compete in national level tournaments.
5) Pioneer league season Jan-Mar (Wichita Area)
6) I have seen several kids comeback from MS with bad habits, out of shape and WAY over confident.

Just a few for now
Posted By: Teamroper Re: open rooms - 01/08/13 07:06 PM
Originally Posted By: Shelstin
Personally, I would like to see it regulated a little more to put it all on a standard schedule before Christmas. Granted, it is a short season, but it allows the kids who want to move on the opportunity to do so while developing a team mentality. But, I still think that wrestling is a team sport.....


Exactly we had 23 new kids out for MS season which is great, but if that would have been the earlier season we wouldhave gotten a good percentage out for kids. I bet there will be not even 10% of those out for kids with the late season. $35 bucks for a card with the chance of 2 matches.
Posted By: shawnbudke Re: open rooms - 01/08/13 07:12 PM
My recommendation or idea is to approach this from the perspective of what is best for the kids. We are lucky in the northeastern part of the state in that we can have our cake and eat it too.

Our MS season is only 6 weeks long and is over by Christmas. Our serious wrestlers actually get to do both the middle school and majority of the kids club season (just not at the same time). The only real big tournament that they miss if doing MS is the Kick off Classic.

This helps the sport of wrestling all the way around. I have seen the number of kids that come out for wrestling in 7th grade for Middle School and then join our club after the school season is over. It also gives our experienced kids a chance to learn leadership and how to work with the other kids that will be their team members in high school. I also see wrestling as a team sport so I think that is important.

I do not understand administrators in other parts of the state that say they want what is best for the kids and then are unwilling to change to a pre-Christmas season for the Middle Schoolers. Seems to me they are only paying lip service to the idea of what is best for the kids.

Bet those same administrators think it is a good idea to have 7th and 8th graders choose between wrestling and basketball. Having a pre-Christmas season allows the kids to try both if they want.
Posted By: GOBIGRED Re: open rooms - 01/08/13 08:14 PM
I distinctly recall 2 yrs ago while participating in the final MS tournament in the Wichita area...2 coaches from 2 seperate teams tried to have my son disqualified and all his team points nullified because he had weighed in the night before to participate in the Park City classic that was taking place after the MS tournament. Officially the MS season was over the moment the tournament ended. It was officially declared we had broken no rules by weighing in because he hadn't stepped on a mat to participate in the classic until the MS tournament was over. Unfortunately the time it took to argue and ultimately come to a conclusion caused him to miss his first match at the classic so we simply had to scratch. What a waste of an athletes time.
Posted By: Jeff Smith Re: open rooms - 01/08/13 08:23 PM
Will, I agree with you 100% on the fact that the current rules for middle school wrestling needs changed.

Keeping in mind what middle school athletics is; an opportunity for kids to try different sports before high school when then they will need to commit to 1 sport each season. I would argue that even though there are rules in place KSHSAA recognizes middle school is a different animal and will not come down with the mighty hammer as they might for a high school violation. The true problem is by not having consistency across the state with respect to timing of the season while still having the rules on the books on competing outside we put our kids at a disadvantage. 80%-85% of middle school programs have an early season therefore allowing kids to join club during the meat of the season. The pioneer league along with a few others still choose to compete during Jan-Feb. This in my mind puts our kids at a huge disadvantage compared to the others across the state that are sharpening their skills against the best. In a perfect world the middle school program would provide an opportunity for kids to try it and learn while at the same time providing those that are further along an opportunity to continue to push themselves. The latter is very difficult under today’s restrictions or at least the perception of these restrictions. There are several threads on here about the pros and cons of middle school and I don’t mean to rehash them but after hours and hours last year working with our league’s ADs I have little to show for it other than frustration and disappointment. When all said and done the main reasons for not willing to change the season was scheduling. Getting teachers and administration to work the additional events during the early season. A reason I will never understand especially considering that we agreed on we should be doing what’s best for our kids.

Sporto, in addition to Tracy’s very valid reasons. I will give you one more. My son. After years of coaching and supporting my son in his decision to wrestle middle school for the last two years I can tell you for a fact his skills not only didn’t improve he went backwards. This isn’t a knock on the coaches but a knock on the system. With that said, my son benefited from many other things that middle school team has to offer and think that was great. It’s just a shame that we can’t have the best of both worlds especially when the solution seems so easy. Until then I would encourage everyone to take advantage of any opportunity to better themselves. If you have concerns regarding open rooms call Mark Lentz, he was very helpful in answering my questions last year.
Posted By: sportsfan02 Re: open rooms - 01/08/13 08:32 PM
Originally Posted By: Jeff Smith

Sporto, in addition to Tracy’s very valid reasons.

Those were opinions, not hard facts supported in any way.


Originally Posted By: Jeff Smith
If you have concerns regarding open rooms call Mark Lentz, he was very helpful in answering my questions last year.

Did he tell you to advise middle schoolers to violate KSHSAA rules???
Posted By: Jeff Smith Re: open rooms - 01/08/13 08:53 PM
Sporto, perhaps you can provide "proof or evidence" that the current rules are best for our kids. Please enlighten us!

As far as your other question. Call Mark and ask him!
Posted By: KNOWS WRESTLING Re: open rooms - 01/08/13 08:57 PM
Unfortunately rules are rules. You don't get to follow the rules you like and disregard the rules you don't. This is the problem with some of our youth. If parents don't follow rules and direction we can't expect our children to either.
Posted By: sportsfan02 Re: open rooms - 01/08/13 08:58 PM
Originally Posted By: Jeff Smith
Sporto, perhaps you can provide "proof or evidence" that the current rules are best for our kids. Please enlighten us!

I provided my evidence in my original post. Those are hard facts based on results. I didn't say the current system was "best", rather I said wrestling middle school didn't impede our wrestlers progress or development.
Posted By: Jeff Smith Re: open rooms - 01/08/13 09:08 PM
Originally Posted By: sportsfan02
Originally Posted By: doug747

Who gets hurt by a kid going to open room night and getting extra work in?

The kid does if it is reported to KSHSAA. It has always been my understanding that penalties for such an infraction could include loss of eligibilty on the other end of their high school career.


I'm confused? Is this the post you are referencing?
Posted By: Teamroper Re: open rooms - 01/08/13 09:35 PM
Originally Posted By: sportsfan02
Originally Posted By: Jeff Smith

Sporto, in addition to Tracy’s very valid reasons.

Those were opinions, not hard facts supported in any way.


Originally Posted By: Jeff Smith
If you have concerns regarding open rooms call Mark Lentz, he was very helpful in answering my questions last year.

Did he tell you to advise middle schoolers to violate KSHSAA rules???




1) Being in a room with 30 kids that are trying to learn to wrestle for the first time for 2 1/2 months.
FACT: the MS program has 23 new kids to wrestling this year where my son in attending.

2) Matches against these same kids for several weeks in a row and having 1-2 competative matches in the MS season
Maybe/Maybe Not Previous years indicate that this is the case, Undefeated MS wrestlers not making it out of subs and going 0-2, I will follow up with how many 1st year wreslters my boy faces this year.

3) Not allowed to practice in open rooms for extra work
Fact: It isn't allowed by rules, if you are saying open room and extra work hasn't been proven to improve kids well I guess you have your own set of issues.

4) Not being able to compete in national level tournaments.
Fact: Not allowed to wrestle outside tournament, again if high competition doesn't improve the wrestler again other issues.

5) Pioneer league season Jan-Mar (Wichita Area)
Fact: it run from Jan 3 through March 1st

6) I have seen several kids comeback from MS with bad habits, out of shape and WAY over confident.
Fact: Again a kid telling me he was 15-0 in MS and telling me he was going to be a state placer easy, not make it out of subs. I have seen two kid comeback headlocking fools, locking hands on top. I guess if you dispute that I haven't seen this then it may not be fact, but I base it soley on the MS.
Posted By: Hossus Re: open rooms - 01/08/13 09:36 PM
http://www.trackwrestling.com/tw/members...;twId=111444009

Sportsfan02,

The fact the we are high-jacking the HS tread to discuss this ought to give you a clue. It doesn't even rate it's own forum on this site. Nobody cares about MS wrestling in KS. The only people who seem to really care is the parents. KSHSAA, apparently cares enough to control MS wrestlers but doesn't offer them much for it.

My son whom I have posted his track wrestling profile above is one of those kids this system hurts. He loves the idea of being on a team and was thrilled to be a part of his Middle School team and the AAU Team that went to Iowa last season. He also was thrilled to be on the FS/GR team in Indiana last season. He was also on a team this season at Park Hill Duels. So being on a team is not an issue.

The problem stems from not having anyone to practice with and or wrestle with at local Tournaments. He practices with adults exclusively now since nobody else will touch him. We get turned down at tournaments since he is big and too good to wrestle with. Had to back out of VC tournament this last weekend as nobody would wrestle him. Can't move up an age group @14U and can't move up a weight group when your HWT. Our option is to wrestle out of state till the HS boys get done with state in about 2 months. I do what I can but it is expensive to wrestle out of state.

The choice to wrestle MS is one that basically puts his wrestling progress at a standstill. He will have very few matches in MS. If he gets 10 this year I will be surprised. He basically schooled the HWT class at Pioneer League Tournament as a 7th grader. However, the HS boys he will have to wrestle at state will have had over 20 matches by that time.

It would be more beneficial for him to be able to wrestle MS during the week and be able to catch a few National tournaments on the weekends when possible. Most other states are not quite so controlling and do allow this. My OK wrestling friends think we are retarded for doing this to the kids. They even allow the HS wrestlers some options to wrestle major national tournaments while in season.

If you do take the time to look at his Track page listed above, note the number of hits he has on his page. People are watching him and his progress. Some of those people will likely be colleges looking for a good HWT. Tell me that not having real options is not hurting him.

Thanks, Troy Fowler
Posted By: luellen Re: open rooms - 01/08/13 09:54 PM
The rule is just stupid. If a wrestler is not missing MS practice or tournaments, then It should not be a problem. If parents have a skilled wrestler he should be allowed to wrestle & practice anywhere they want. My youngest son wrestled MS this year & we followed the rule. I would not judge or blow the whistle on any one breaking this rule. What is the main reason for this rule? Anyone know?
Posted By: doug747 Re: open rooms - 01/08/13 09:56 PM
Maybe we should not allow any middle schoolers to wrestle kids series, do open rooms, OR work out in their bsmt with their friends or brothers. And since there are a couple of different seasons, we probably should not let any middle schoolers to wrestle anything except middle school during their season, and once their season is over, they shouldn't be allowed to practice with their club team during the other schools' season as well, because there is a good chance that they will improve, and that isn't fair to the middle schoolers that have a different season. And kids that are motivated to put in extra work need to be indoctrinated properly, so that they can grow up to be worthless, government dependent idiots that vote for someone like our current president and his liberal entitlement society friends........Let's cut practice down to an hour per day, maybe two days a week. And let's make sure that we don't keep score at tourneys, so none of the kids gets discouraged.
Posted By: elid2 Re: open rooms - 01/08/13 10:36 PM
This was a question about HS & MS kids so I don't think it was high jacked.I guess my question should have been; does an open room constitute an organized practice and therefor prohibit HS & MS kids from going to them.
Posted By: CWB Re: open rooms - 01/08/13 10:47 PM
My son and I have talked about this.He can get maby 20 mins mat time in mid school.Or we can get hours of mat time in kids club.If people do not think he will be going back wards in mid school they are nuts.If a real good kids runs moves with some one just learning,he will slow down his moves.This is why the best kids look for better kids,to keep getting better.We have 3rd graders in the room that the middle schoolers do not want to work out with.
I can tell you it is eazy for me to know what is best.My son would like to help his friends but we have tryed that.If we went to a big school,middle school would be better.But we do not.
What I want to know is this for the kids or for the schools.If it is for the kids it is eazy.Do away with this crappy rule.Let the boys that want to get chalenged look for better kids.We have and will look for team duels.This is the way we can figger out the team Idea with out mid school.

Charles Bradford
Posted By: ReDPloyd Re: open rooms - 01/08/13 10:51 PM
Originally Posted By: shawnbudke
My recommendation or idea is to approach this from the perspective of what is best for the kids. We are lucky in the northeastern part of the state in that we can have our cake and eat it too.

Our MS season is only 6 weeks long and is over by Christmas. Our serious wrestlers actually get to do both the middle school and majority of the kids club season (just not at the same time). The only real big tournament that they miss if doing MS is the Kick off Classic.

This helps the sport of wrestling all the way around. I have seen the number of kids that come out for wrestling in 7th grade for Middle School and then join our club after the school season is over. It also gives our experienced kids a chance to learn leadership and how to work with the other kids that will be their team members in high school. I also see wrestling as a team sport so I think that is important.

I do not understand administrators in other parts of the state that say they want what is best for the kids and then are unwilling to change to a pre-Christmas season for the Middle Schoolers. Seems to me they are only paying lip service to the idea of what is best for the kids.

Bet those same administrators think it is a good idea to have 7th and 8th graders choose between wrestling and basketball. Having a pre-Christmas season allows the kids to try both if they want.

Great post and I agree with everything that you have said.
Posted By: doug747 Re: open rooms - 01/09/13 01:03 AM
Charles I am flabbergasted that you would make such an absurd comment that would imply that YOU, a parent, knows what is better for your kid than a government school administrator.......how dare you.......;)
Posted By: Tyson Schreiner Re: open rooms - 01/09/13 01:18 AM
love it.... still laughing about our president post. liberals!
Posted By: Tyson Schreiner Re: open rooms - 01/09/13 01:24 AM
Creating an argument for sake of arguing. Sports fan knows MS , in the way that it is currently ran, is no benefit for even a partially skilled wrestler.
Posted By: J. Storm Re: open rooms - 01/09/13 02:42 AM
Besides the Pioneer League, is there any other Middle School leagues competing after Christmas?
Posted By: MSvikings Re: open rooms - 01/09/13 12:10 PM
The Flint Hills League starts January 21st and will end around March 8th. There are 3 schools who have wrestling in the league maybe a 4th I can't remember. The schools i know are Herrington, Council Grove, and Mission Valley. Our club will lose wrestlers to the Middle School program. My son is a HWT wrestler. He is only 9 years old but works out with a 7th grader. When the 7th grader leaves for the middle school season my son will lose his workout partner. The 7th grader will lose his work out partner also. Both wrestlers will be hurt with the late middle school season. My wife and I have already been thinking about middle school when our son is old enough. With being a HWT are there going to be kids to wrestle at the middle school? Is he going to have someone to workout with? I want him to be part of his school but I don't want him to back slide with his wrestling either. Hopefully things will change in the furture.

Josh Parker Mission Valley
Posted By: Travis Phippen Re: open rooms - 01/09/13 01:01 PM
It would be wise not to wrestling outside competitions during the middle school season
Posted By: RJW1 Re: open rooms - 01/09/13 01:50 PM
Originally Posted By: Storm13
Besides the Pioneer League, is there any other Middle School leagues competing after Christmas?


I think the NWKL and MCL do middle school wrestling after Christmas.
Posted By: master blaster Re: open rooms - 01/09/13 02:09 PM
In wichita there is no JH wrestling accept for the suburbs so I'm not familiar with JH rules. What if a kid never wrestles JH and only wrestles club? If the competion isnt good and they wont allow a kid to try and better himself why wrestle JH at all? Dont see how they could impose a penalty on you if you were never on the team.
Posted By: sportsfan02 Re: open rooms - 01/09/13 03:03 PM
Originally Posted By: master blaster
Dont see how they could impose a penalty on you if you were never on the team.

They won't. It is only after you've joined the team that you are not allowed outside competition/instruction until the end of the season.
Posted By: badbo Re: open rooms - 01/09/13 04:40 PM
Doug747 makes my day...
Posted By: J. Storm Re: open rooms - 01/09/13 04:56 PM
Thank you, I was under the impression the Pioneer League was the only league that practiced after Christmas. However, I do think that all the leagues should be either before Christmas or after Christmas for some uniformity across the state.





Jason Storm
Posted By: Cokeley Re: open rooms - 01/09/13 04:58 PM
Originally Posted By: sportsfan02
Originally Posted By: Jeff Smith
Sporto, perhaps you can provide "proof or evidence" that the current rules are best for our kids. Please enlighten us!

I provided my evidence in my original post. Those are hard facts based on results. I didn't say the current system was "best", rather I said wrestling middle school didn't impede our wrestlers progress or development.


This is slight twisting of the words. Middle school wrestling does NOT impede wrestlers progress and development, per se. The KSHSAA regulations applied to middle school wrestle absolutely impedes the progress and development of wrestling, both specifically and in general. There are ZERO legitmate reasons to prevent kids from getting outside instruction or attending outside events during the MS season. My proposal was to have the option to do both so that "club wrestlers" can do both without being exposed to KSHSAA sanctions. No one has ever justified the application these ridiculous restrictions. When you don't allow choice and there is no common sense behind the regulations it is time to remove the restrictions.
Posted By: doug747 Re: open rooms - 01/09/13 08:38 PM
The numerous valid points posted here on the side of "this rule impedes a wrestlers improvement" were brushed off as "not fact".

But Sportypants' statement that it does NOT, is displayed as fact.

Sportyshorts words=fact
anyone's words that disagrees with him=not fact
Posted By: sportsfan02 Re: open rooms - 01/09/13 09:00 PM
I can show you records of multiple X state champions all of whom wrestled middle school. I'm not sure how you prove to me that others were "impeded" but I'm willing to look at any evidence you have!
Posted By: Jeff Smith Re: open rooms - 01/09/13 09:19 PM
I am going to retract my earlier comment about encouraging kids to take advantage of opportunities to better themselves with respect to organized practices and outside competition. I’ve understood these rules were in place and even though I believe there is some gray area when it comes to open rooms such as at Andale until these restrictions are officially changed at KSHSAA I guess it’s better safe than sorry. (I still believe KSHSAA is not actively looking for violators at the middle school level but are forced to take action when brought to their attention by our own??)

Fact is. These restrictions only hurt the Nate Fowlers along with the rest of the wrestlers competing in the late season. The solutions seems so simple and the results so attractive it is mind boggling. There is a better way!
Posted By: Cokeley Re: open rooms - 01/09/13 10:14 PM
Originally Posted By: sportsfan02
I can show you records of multiple X state champions all of whom wrestled middle school. I'm not sure how you prove to me that others were "impeded" but I'm willing to look at any evidence you have!


Greg,

I have never said that MS wrestling impedes the development of wrestlers. You are twisting my words! I am stating that if the regulations were lifted all wrestlers would benefit. Many MS wrestlers do NOT participate in their school's program because the missed events and workouts are not worth it to them. The MS room suffers by these leaders not being there to help develop the others. It is simply common sense that if you let wrestlers do both MS practice and Club practice along with MS events and Open events that development will improve for ALL wrestlers. I cannot give you facts because this is NOT ALLOWED but I am stating that if it was you would see some of the gap close between us and other elite states. Another way to see how KS matches up is to lift the travel restriction for HS wrestling, even if it is for only ONE event per season. Then we could take KS wrestlers to Beast of the East, Ironman, Powerade, RTOC, etc. We are robbing our wrestlers who work their tales off the opportunity to showcase and match their skills against the best.
Posted By: GregMann Re: open rooms - 01/09/13 10:18 PM
Originally Posted By: RJW1
Originally Posted By: Storm13
Besides the Pioneer League, is there any other Middle School leagues competing after Christmas?


I think the NWKL and MCL do middle school wrestling after Christmas.


This is true. I do believe the MCL & NWKL will make the change in the near future as we continue to lose possible opponents due to the shift to before-Christmas MS wrestling.
However, many on here do not seem to understand there as many good non-wrestling reasons not to change as there are good wrestling reasons. Of course, what would one expect on a WRESTLING forum? wink
Posted By: sportsfan02 Re: open rooms - 01/10/13 12:09 AM
Originally Posted By: Jeff Smith
(I still believe KSHSAA is not actively looking for violators at the middle school level but are forced to take action when brought to their attention by our own??)

The impression I got from the incident described previously was that the wrestler's own school district imposed the sanctions on him after finding out he had been competing outside the middle school program. While I don't know for sure if that was the case, I think I can speak confidently that that is how our school district would handle such a situation if brought to their attention.
Our club eliminates that potential problem by having a policy of not accepting middle school wrestlers during the middle school season. We not only encourage them to be wrestling with their school team, we EXPECT it.
Posted By: Hossus Re: open rooms - 01/10/13 12:16 AM
I guess we can hash this out to infinity but since we are dealing with a State Government entity I suppose we would have to contact or write a Senator or Congressman to get any results. Simply petitioning the KSHSAAA to make the change would just fall on deaf ears. If you have a friend in Topeka who can help make this change then I suggest that you approach them. It's probably too late for the kids being subjected to this right now, but maybe for next year.
Posted By: GregMann Re: open rooms - 01/10/13 12:24 AM
Originally Posted By: sportsfan02
Originally Posted By: Jeff Smith
(I still believe KSHSAA is not actively looking for violators at the middle school level but are forced to take action when brought to their attention by our own??)

The impression I got from the incident described previously was that the wrestler's own school district imposed the sanctions on him after finding out he had been competing outside the middle school program. While I don't know for sure if that was the case, I think I can speak confidently that that is how our school district would handle such a situation if brought to their attention.
Our club eliminates that potential problem by having a policy of not accepting middle school wrestlers during the middle school season. We not only encourage them to be wrestling with their school team, we EXPECT it.


That is basically how it works; the local school has the opportunity to "make it right" first and report the incident and action taken; if what is done is not to the satisfaction of the KSHSAA, Topeka can impose further/additional sanctions.
Posted By: GregMann Re: open rooms - 01/10/13 12:30 AM
Originally Posted By: Hossus
I guess we can hash this out to infinity but since we are dealing with a State Government entity I suppose we would have to contact or write a Senator or Congressman to get any results. Simply petitioning the KSHSAAA to make the change would just fall on deaf ears. If you have a friend in Topeka who can help make this change then I suggest that you approach them. It's probably too late for the kids being subjected to this right now, but maybe for next year.


yeh, involve ANOTHER layer of government to tell a governmental entity charged with a specific responsibility how to handle that responsibility. That'll FOR SURE make it better.

Whether we like it or not, or believe it or not, the KSHSAA rules are written and largely enforced by the MEMBER institutions that make up the KSHSAA. The Board of Directors is made up of mostly of duly elected school administrators and members of BOE's. You can go on the KSHSAA website and see who those people are and you can petition THEM for a change. However, don't be surprised if not everyone agrees that the MS wrestling season is the most deserving of its undivided attention.
Posted By: Hossus Re: open rooms - 01/10/13 12:37 AM
Some interpretations by KSHAAA of Off-Season Programs/Outside Competition – During the School Year

Based on numerous questions from parents and club coaches concerning what is permitted during the school year outside the season of sport below are some interpretations of KSHSAA rules.

Here are a few definitions that will help clarify some rules.

School coaches may not be involved in off season practices or competitions.

Outside Competition (Non-School teams)
During the school year outside the season of sport no more than (3-basketball; 4-volleyball; 5-8-man football, baseball & softball; 6-11 man football and soccer) may play/practice or be rostered on the same nonschool/outside team.

School Year
Defined as the Tuesday after Labor Day until the Saturday before Memorial Day.

School Squad
Defined as Varsity, JV, 9 th, A-team, B-team, etc. Any amount of time played in a contest (pinch runner, 1 quarter, 1 play, etc) constitutes squad membership. A player could be a member of several squads.

Non-School-Team membership
The number of players allowed on an non-school/outside team during the school year outside the season of sport is based on the previous school years roster. Limits are 3-basketball; 4-volleyball; 5-8-man football, baseball & softball; 6-11 man football and soccer.

Non-School/Outside team
Any team that is not part of the school program.

Private Instruction
Defined as one student receiving instruction from one person during a period of instruction. A support person
(no more than 2) may be present at Private Instruction but may not receive instruction. For example during a basketball lesson one person could pass the ball while another played defense but may not receive instruction.

Group Instruction
Defined as two or more students receiving instruction from an instructor during the same period of instruction.

Open Gym
If a school provides an open gym it must be announced to the entire student body, it cannot be for only a select or designated group of people. NO INSTRUCTION may be given by anyone during an open gym. A coach employed by the school cannot supervise the open gym if the sport they coach is being played. Example: if
the batting cages are being used the baseball/softball coaches cannot organize or supervise the open gym.

Camp/Clinic (not organized by school coaches)
A camp/clinic held during the school year outside the season of sport must be advertised and open to anyone, not just a specific group of students. Camps/clinics may not be longer than one calendar week in length. The same group of students may not attend more than two camps/clinics organized for the purposes of skill development.

Practice after the school season
In areas of the state where middle schools have a split season for basketball we receive inquires about parents or other individuals continuing to practice with the players after the school season is over. Parents or other individuals may not “extend” the season by having members of the school team continue to practice together after the school’s competition season is over.
Posted By: GregMann Re: open rooms - 01/10/13 01:29 AM
the rule which applies to the original post is:

KSHSAA Handbook Rule 22 (page 34): "Outside Competition" This rule applies to students in grades 7-12.

From Labor Day through the Friday before Memorial Day a student who is a member of his school team may NOT compete as a member of an outside team or as an independent competitor in outside competition in the same sport.

A student becomes a member of a school team when he/she first participates in a practice session.
Posted By: doug747 Re: open rooms - 01/10/13 01:30 AM
So how do you know they wouldn't have been 4 time state champions if they were allowed to put in extra work.....Or maybe they would have been more dominant during the championship run........I'm sorry, but I'm not accepting that as evidence, that proves that middle school wrestling doesn't impede the ability to make oneself better by working out a little extra......

Your statement is much more silly than trying to make our common sense statements sound 'unfactual".....

And don't be too sure that your state champions didn't slip out and get some extra work in once in a while......

wink
Posted By: John Johnson Re: open rooms - 01/10/13 01:57 AM
My son wrestled middle school and I do think he picked up bad habits there. Its not the coach's fault. We only have one and he had alot of other kids to work with. And, Red, its not that some kids think they are too good, it that if they are not just going into the room 'just to help coach' they are not going to get anything out of most of the practices. Changes need to be made for the good of the sport. Fortunately, our middle school season was over in time for the Park Hill tourney in early December, if not, I would never skip club wrestling for middle school, it would impede a kid's development.

And, if you let the experienced kids do both, won't they bring back experiences that will help everyone....Red, isn't that the theory you used about them coming into the middle school room and helping the new kids???
Posted By: sportsfan02 Re: open rooms - 01/10/13 02:07 AM
Originally Posted By: doug747
So how do you know they wouldn't have been 4 time state champions if they were allowed to put in extra work.....

One of them was!!!
Posted By: Travis Phippen Re: open rooms - 01/10/13 02:38 AM
Gregg getting another entity involved helped pass this type of legislation for swimming in Kansas.
Posted By: RedStorm Re: open rooms - 01/10/13 03:32 AM
Originally Posted By: John Johnson
My son wrestled middle school and I do think he picked up bad habits there. Its not the coach's fault. We only have one and he had alot of other kids to work with. And, Red, its not that some kids think they are too good, it that if they are not just going into the room 'just to help coach' they are not going to get anything out of most of the practices. Changes need to be made for the good of the sport. Fortunately, our middle school season was over in time for the Park Hill tourney in early December, if not, I would never skip club wrestling for middle school, it would impede a kid's development.

And, if you let the experienced kids do both, won't they bring back experiences that will help everyone....Red, isn't that the theory you used about them coming into the middle school room and helping the new kids???


While I am sure we agree most times, I disagree here. The theory you ascribe to me is the theory of "sharing the wealth" which I do not believe in. Saying I should continuously maximize my own talents and only share them when I have to. I am saying that you do not get to have your cake and eat it too. I would fault no person that skips the middle school season because they can get more at the club level. If the coach isn't up to snuff, then don't wrestle for him. My theory is simply that there are many things that take place in a kids life between the 7th grade and the 12th grade and the humility to take the six week window of being a part of a school team, goes a long way socially and emotionally for the development of all involved. This is the theory called stewardship, which I follow, where talent should be shared, meaning sometimes sacraficing personal gain for the betterment of the whole. Sometimes that means doing things for no personal self gain but for the gain of others. I have my own kids to worry about so ultimately, I don't care what a family does. I have my own plates to clean. But....

...we must decide if the team and community are more important than the individual and not wantonly ignore rules because they do not benefit me personally. If you are an athlete (especially at a 5A school and below) that could help a team, but you are sitting out the season to focus on your specialty, then honestly, I am not impressed. And really, the way most youth athletes look to the stands for guidance instead of their coaches anyways, makes me wonder why we even bother trying to teach kids lessons that will actually help them for the rest of their lives, like self-control and respect.

So there you go, aren't you glad you asked?
Posted By: GregMann Re: open rooms - 01/10/13 10:58 AM
Originally Posted By: Travis Phippen
Gregg getting another entity involved helped pass this type of legislation for swimming in Kansas.


and the jury is still out as to whether or not that has been a positive.
Posted By: doug747 Re: open rooms - 01/10/13 12:46 PM
So does that prove your assertion that if we continue to not allow kids to participate in both club and MS, it will not have any affect on the kids' improvement as a wrestler? Absolutely not......why shouldn't the kids have the choice to do both? So they can judge for themselves.......There are way too many people like you in this world that think it is your job to raise MY kids. You would fit right in with most congressmen and politicians......

And someone made a point on another thread about the swimming rule, being able to do both.......how crazy is it that one sport allows it, but another does not? I'm a huge football supporter, but coaches can now work with the kids in the summer, and last I heard, wrestling coaches can NOT.

If wrestling coaches were allowed to work with kids in the offseason, how much better would the coaching be as well? We as coaches learn when we go to tourneys, camps, practice, etc. But a coach that isn't allowed to do those things will be sitting at home.
Posted By: doug747 Re: open rooms - 01/10/13 12:54 PM
Whether that is a positive or not is irrelevent. The choice is allowed to be made by the student athlete and parent, NOT some bureaucrat..........

Again, you people act like we are asking for murder to be legalized..........

The worst that could happen would be a kid puts in extra work doing MS after school, and a club practice or open room that night, and gets burned out. I get that. Back off the next year and don't do both, or not as often.

(before you reply, I'll do it for you and Sporto, you'll say "what if the kid quits??!!" to which I say, as a parent, "that isn't an option".....I would rather not go to work today, but I will because I know what hard work gets me, and I know what sitting on my a$$ doing nothing gets me)

The best that can happen is the kid sees what extra work gets him, he improves, and learns a life lesson about hard work.
(and of course you and sporto will say something to disagree with this, but since I can't get my head far enough up my a$$ to see your point of view, I can't guess what it will be)
Posted By: sportsfan02 Re: open rooms - 01/10/13 01:00 PM
Originally Posted By: doug747
Absolutely not......why shouldn't the kids have the choice to do both? So they can judge for themselves.......

Because in many if not most cases it wouldn't be the kids making the decision. Instead it would be some over-zealous parent trying to re-live their childhood through their kid.

Originally Posted By: doug747
how crazy is it that one sport allows it, but another does not? I'm a huge football supporter, but coaches can now work with the kids in the summer, and last I heard, wrestling coaches can NOT.

Wrestling coaches most certainly can work with their kids during the summer.



Posted By: doug747 Re: open rooms - 01/10/13 01:01 PM
I want to apologize, just a little bit, but not really, (do I sound like XGSFDSCORDDC-Man?)for the above post, but about 10-15 years ago we were in a tshirt shop in New Orleans, and I bought a shirt that said "I'm trying to see things from your point of view, but I can't get my head that far up my a$$" and I've been waiting all this time to find a time to use it, and today was the day!!!!
Posted By: doug747 Re: open rooms - 01/10/13 01:08 PM
While I am sure we agree most times, I disagree here. The theory you ascribe to me is the theory of "sharing the wealth" which I do not believe in. *****Somtimes I wonder whether you may be BS'ing here. There is little doubt in my mind that there some people out there that like this rule because it keeps others from improving, or tears down those that are at the top, and brings them down to their kids' level. Which is a version of sharing the wealth. ***********

Saying I should continuously maximize my own talents and only share them when I have to. I am saying that you do not get to have your cake and eat it too. I would fault no person that skips the middle school season because they can get more at the club level. If the coach isn't up to snuff, then don't wrestle for him. My theory is simply that there are many things that take place in a kids life between the 7th grade and the 12th grade and the humility to take the six week window of being a part of a school team, goes a long way socially and emotionally for the development of all involved. ********So where did anyone say "screw middle school, just do club. This is a debate on allowing kids to do both. I am saying that when my kid gets better, the TEAM gets better, so I am doing what you want to happen without you even knowing it*********

This is the theory called stewardship, which I follow, where talent should be shared, meaning sometimes sacraficing personal gain for the betterment of the whole. Sometimes that means doing things for no personal self gain but for the gain of others. I have my own kids to worry about so ultimately, I don't care what a family does. I have my own plates to clean. But.... *****A theory, that you follow, but you want to force it on the rest of us??*****

...we must decide if the team and community are more important than the individual and not wantonly ignore rules because they do not benefit me personally. If you are an athlete (especially at a 5A school and below) that could help a team, but you are sitting out the season to focus on your specialty, then honestly, I am not impressed. ****But you should be REALLY impressed with kids that do bothMS and club or open room********

And really, the way most youth athletes look to the stands for guidance instead of their coaches anyways, makes me wonder why we even bother trying to teach kids lessons that will actually help them for the rest of their lives, like self-control and respect.******Here is my take on that. I totally disagree with a kid that doesn't respect his coach, no matter how good or bad the coach is. Especially if it is an unpaid volunteer trying to help out. But if you are getting kids that are doing that, either the kid is a punk, or you stink as a coach. Look in the mirror and make sure you are doing what it takes as a coach to help make the kid better, and not just along for the ride, or for a few extra dollars on your supplemental contract. I know tons of coaches that, if broken down to an hourly wage, get paid in cents per hour, not dollars. I also know many that do the absolute minimum to keep that supplemental contract*****

So there you go, aren't you glad you asked? *****You didn't even ask me, but I gave you my 2 cents worth*****
Posted By: doug747 Re: open rooms - 01/10/13 01:19 PM
There you go again, trying to save some kid from an overzealous parent. Until you live in their house, don't judge those parents. I would much rather have an overzealous parent, than a parent that allows their kids to sit around doing nothing, which leads to boredom, which leads to getting in trouble, which leads to dope smoking, drinking, etc........

I agree that kids should have a say in activities, but as parents, we all have to "help" them make decisions. Most wrestlers, after the first few a$$ whippings, if given the choice, would QUIT. That is the easy way out. Go play basketball so you can blame the other 4 guys when you lose.

This is wrestling, and we should hold our tougher athletes with balls enough to try this sport, to a higher standard, and instill that sort of mental and physical toughness in our kids. Not the "ok honey, you don't have to do it, I'll see if I can get someone to outlaw that other kid from being able to work out in his bsmt so they quit making the gap bigger between your spoiled butt, and his hardworking butt"
Posted By: L.Geyer Re: open rooms - 01/10/13 01:38 PM
Talking about this makes me think of a topic that comes up every year. If they would just make ALL Middle School's wrestle the same season, and have an end of the year regional’s, and then a state tournament. Then let them join the club teams after that. I can’t help but to think it would make Middle School wrestling much more competitive and I believe more middle school athletes would wrestle. JMO
Posted By: sportsfan02 Re: open rooms - 01/10/13 01:43 PM
You need to consider the possibility that you don't represent the average parent in your views on child rearing. All I have to do to doubt that is to visit any youth sports event or read the newspaper to see that not everyone is raising their children to your standards. Sadly, more and more the government or in this case KSHSAA is put in a position of having to be a buffer between parents and what is best for their children.
All I know is this, the coaches I know and respect all want their wrestlers wrestling middle school. And, I have never heard a coach say "boy I wish that kid was getting outside instruction or competition". Frankly, if a coach is running his room correctly, I doubt any kid would have the energy for outside instruction or competition. That's not to say some parents wouldn't require it though.
Posted By: sportsfan02 Re: open rooms - 01/10/13 01:46 PM
Originally Posted By: L.Geyer
If they would just make ALL Middle School's wrestle the same season, and have an end of the year regional’s, and then a state tournament.

It will get there. It's just going to take a little time.
Posted By: doug747 Re: open rooms - 01/10/13 02:36 PM
And sadly, every election it is proven that more and more people want someone else to take care of them and their children. I agree. It is up to us to try to "train" them, leading by example, that it is much more satisfying to achieve because of hard work, than it is to be the average joe, doing just enough to get by..........10 years ago,, my statement would be that ALOT of people take the easy road. Sadly, today, my statement is MOST people take the easy road. Again, this is wrestling, the toughest sport there is. So we are not dealing with as many, as a percentage of total parents, that are looking for the easy way.

I bet most coaches, when asked if they would like for their kids to get better, and put in more work, would say "hell yes".

And for the record, I don't have a dog in this hunt. We don't have middle school wrestling at Andale. If there was an opportunity to get it, I would jump on board in a heartbeat, while trying to give my input as to who it will help, who it will not help, and the season schedule. It would probably cause me to make some calls to KSHSAA or whoever needs to hear from us to change the rules to allow the FREEDOM to choose how much practice our kids can put in.

For now, I'll just make my argument from the standpoint that, like I said above, we should have the FREEDOM to be as good or as lazy as we choose to be.....
Posted By: RedStorm Re: open rooms - 01/10/13 02:55 PM
The exemption given to swimming is an absolute joke, drawn up by our legislation from purely nepostistic views and nothing more. Cleary we need more wrestlers in our legislation so when I run for office I will expect your vote.

This naturally leads me to my next comment.

I can agree with several things you said, except for one - I don't ever BS!
Posted By: Travis Phippen Re: open rooms - 01/10/13 03:16 PM
Here is something I got online of the vision of KSHSAA. They do literally want to level the playing field:
The philosophy at the top

Conversations with Musselman, as with any of his predecessors, shed light on the philosophy of the man guiding the Association.

In Musselman’s case, one hears a man who believes in strong athletic/activity programs that know their place in the overall education of teenage students. You also meet a man with sensitivity to their needs.

“I’m working in a state that values education and the appropriate role of activities in a proper framework that doesn’t cause the tail to wag the dog,” he explained.

“Not all kids in Kansas are similarly situated,” he added. “We have kids who have great parental support and the economic ability to do all kind of wonderful opportunities. And that’s great. But the key is to find the balance that allows them to do that at the same time you don’t disadvantage those who don’t.

“It’s the classic have/have not case. It’s part of why schools form an association: to try and level the playing field.

“Kids in adolescent years fear one thing over anything else, and that’s rejection,” Musselman added. “They don’t want to be cut from a team. To avoid that, some kids say, ‘I won’t even bother.’ They opt out because they know if they don’t play travel ball for 80 games all summer, they have no prayer, that coach already has his team decided.

“Believe me, I talk to people all over the country who’ve seen that opening Pandora’s Box isn’t the panacea everyone thought it would be.”
Posted By: Cokeley Re: open rooms - 01/10/13 03:22 PM
Originally Posted By: sportsfan02
Originally Posted By: L.Geyer
If they would just make ALL Middle School's wrestle the same season, and have an end of the year regional’s, and then a state tournament.

It will get there. It's just going to take a little time.


There has not been any movement on this topic, EVER! Heck, our ms "league" doesn't have weigh ins, doesn't have weight classes, doesn't keep score, and barely has any events. In fact, this season the middle school my son attends didn't have enough singlets so they ask him if he had a red one he could use. He did so he wore it. At the year end tournament, the Lansing coaches protested his singlet stating that it intimidated their wrestlers and was illegal because it wasn't school issued. OMG! Are you kidding me? I would have to say that East Kansas Club practices, even only three times a week, are WAY BETTER than ANY and EVERY MS practice room in this state, bar none. Instruction is better, practice partners are better, conditioning is better, etc. The only difference is that my tax dollars don't get wasted on East Kansas' efforts. Gret, you live in some socialistic fantasy land where average is good enough. I am glad you have probably labeled me an overzealous parent. I think my kids will be productive, tax paying citizens instead of those playing video games, collecting welfare, moving to Colorado, and smoking weed all day.
Posted By: RedStorm Re: open rooms - 01/10/13 03:53 PM
Again, no one is saying that you have to compete in Middle School and High School sports. If the inherent value of participating on a school team sport is not worth the sacrafice of giving up your elite club teams then more power to you.

In fact, the legislation would probably just prefer to get these non-academic activities off of their dime anyway. Don't be surprised when you all get your wish and we eliminate school sports all together, go to the "European model" which I am sure many of you seem to want. If there is no point to having a school team because we have clubs available, then why bother offering them at all. The more we discredit and devalue our scholastic teams, the easier it will be to eliminate them all together. Again, your participation on the school team may not help you, but it does help your school community.

I am surprised more of you don't realize this.
Posted By: Mahan Re: open rooms - 01/10/13 04:03 PM
Will, I am going to have to disagree, now we don't have 80 to 100 kids or whatever the EKWC has that feeds who nows how many different High Schools. But I am going to go out on a limb and suggest that ARMS league wrestling was not a joke by any means. both those Garden City rooms were tough, we were decent, Dodge Comanche and DCMS both had several kids that will make noise in HS. both Liberals etc, not to mention we competed with the GWAC which includes Colby, Scott City, Goodland etc...pretty legit programs. whose MS kids you know are gonna be tough in HS in 2 to 4 years. also I can not speak for all these MS programs but I am (only slightly) offended and will tell you that our MS workouts are as "good" as anything you are gonna see at any level. Furthermore we saw several kids this season who did not start wrestling till 7th grade that were or are going to be tough tough. Yes the Greater Gold kids dominated and my kids with experience are tough etc., but there are a ton of kids out here that would not have ever wrestled if not for MS that are or are going to be really really good. So I do not know what the problem is in the rest of the state, but the Middle School situation out here is pretty dang good. And I would not have any other way.
Posted By: RedStorm Re: open rooms - 01/10/13 04:04 PM
Not having enough uniforms for participants is unacceptable. If you are not going to cut, then at least have sufficient equipment.
Posted By: doug747 Re: open rooms - 01/10/13 04:21 PM
I believe that people on hear that complain the loudest about KSHSAA are the ones that give the LARGEST amount of time, money, etc. to their school's success.......It's called wanting to improve. Not wanting our kids, and yours, to be average. Settling is for losers. Wanting more is for winners....
Posted By: Mahan Re: open rooms - 01/10/13 05:23 PM
Redstorm, exactly
Posted By: CWB Re: open rooms - 01/10/13 05:23 PM
I have not heard any one say they wanted to getrid of MS wrestling.
For that matter every one that is talking club is for EXTRA wrestling.

I coach softball and wrestling.At the end of every night EVERY coach I have every talked to or did any thing with will say. YOU NEED TO PUT IN EXTRA WORK AT HOME. The girls that do that inprove 2 times as fast as the ones that do not.Same gose for the wrestlers that duck walk around the house or do stand ups when watching tv.
Posted By: CWB Re: open rooms - 01/10/13 05:31 PM
Mahan
How many difrant rooms have you went to.I can tell you this my son has went to 12 difrant rooms.Out of that 12 five of them where good rooms.Maby it was just the day that he went.That is less than half.
The bigest difrance in MS and club.Is that if the kid dose not strive to get beter in club the coaches can do some thing.In MS the coaches are under the schools rules.So in turn some coaches in ms think they can not push the kids as much as a club coach.
Posted By: Mahan Re: open rooms - 01/10/13 06:27 PM
I have only been "in" our room. But from what I have seen in competition, most of the ARMS and GWAC MS programs are doing things well. that was my point. Idk what is going on in the rest of the state, but Southwest Kansas right now is doing a good job with its Middle school programs If we could get the Hiplains league to go in the fall that would even be better. I agree though that if the kid does not want to get better then there is not much to do for or with him.
I do not want to get started on how bad and ridiculous KSHSAA rules are about coaching kids "out of season" KSHSAA hamstrings small school programs by not allowing a school coach to work with those MS kids during club season. Big schools probably have Big clubs to work with
Posted By: Jeff Smith Re: open rooms - 01/10/13 06:27 PM
A couple of quick questions for Greg, Greg & Bill.

Let’s say the rules were different and that middle school wrestlers were allowed to practice and compete outside their school’s schedule; would you be advocating on here that it should be changed and restrictions put in place disallowing them this opportunity?

After reading Troy Fowlers post, do you still believe Nate is not adversely affected by these restrictions?

Thanks for your answers!
Posted By: Teamroper Re: open rooms - 01/10/13 06:28 PM
Originally Posted By: Mahan
Will, I am going to have to disagree, now we don't have 80 to 100 kids or whatever the EKWC has that feeds who nows how many different High Schools. But I am going to go out on a limb and suggest that ARMS league wrestling was not a joke by any means. both those Garden City rooms were tough, we were decent, Dodge Comanche and DCMS both had several kids that will make noise in HS. both Liberals etc, not to mention we competed with the GWAC which includes Colby, Scott City, Goodland etc...pretty legit programs. whose MS kids you know are gonna be tough in HS in 2 to 4 years. also I can not speak for all these MS programs but I am (only slightly) offended and will tell you that our MS workouts are as "good" as anything you are gonna see at any level. Furthermore we saw several kids this season who did not start wrestling till 7th grade that were or are going to be tough tough. Yes the Greater Gold kids dominated and my kids with experience are tough etc., but there are a ton of kids out here that would not have ever wrestled if not for MS that are or are going to be really really good. So I do not know what the problem is in the rest of the state, but the Middle School situation out here is pretty dang good. And I would not have any other way.


There are always exceptions, and I am glad there are a few MS programs at that level. The facts are that thos few are the exception and not the rule.

I truly feel bad for our MS coaches. 3-4 weeks to fill what is right now 8-9 spots on the roster with 1st year wrestlers. How do you prepare them for that in 3 weeks. I think they are doing the best they can as coaches. In our case anywyas, there are always the "teacher coaches" just getting another check.

They have to cover so many fundamental items that the work outs or live time is cut short.

The Pioneer league may be MS at its worst, just due to timing and the mass amount of 1st timers.
Posted By: RedStorm Re: open rooms - 01/10/13 07:05 PM
Off the deep end?
Senator Schmidt, KSHSAA at odds over bill
Posted: Friday, February 10, 2006

By By Rick Peterson
The Capital-Journal

Kansas state senator Vicki Schmidt, who represents Topeka's 20th district, believes a high school swimmer who wants to improve by putting in a little extra training time should have the chance to do so.

Kansas High School Activities Association executive director Gary Musselman counters that his organization's rules against dual participation are in place because they're in the best interests of all student-athletes, not just a small number of elite athletes who would benefit from Senate Bill No. 317.

If passed, Senate Bill No. 317 would allow high school swimmers extra training time. State senator Vicki Schmidt says the bill will allow swimmers to maintain their endurance, but the KSHSAA is concerned it will open a "Pandora's box."

The bill already passed the Senate by a 33-7 margin, so it'll be up to the House Federal and State Affairs Committee and ultimately perhaps the entire Kansas House of Representatives to make a decision.

The crux of Bill 317, which Schmidt co-authored with state senators Mike Petersen, R-Wichita, and David Wysong, R-Mission Hills, is to allow high school swimmers to practice with their club teams during the high school season.

"Clearly, it is just for swimming and is not competition. It is just practices," Schmidt said. "If an athlete has met all of the practice requirements of their high school coach — and that would mean going to all the practices that are offered and not substituting a club practice for a high school practice — (the bill) says that they can go practice with their club team and not be penalized.

"I can think of a lot of other academic programs where we applaud individuals for getting extra help, so why do we want to punish the swimmers for doing it?"

Musselman said a major reason for the KSHSAA fighting the bill is a possible "Pandora's box" effect.

"If swimming is modified and exempted — given special treatment if you will, special status — it's already been very clear to us from contacts we've had and even from other legislators that other sports should be exempted similarly," Musselman said. "That changes the face and the dynamics of high school sports in our schools unalterably."

Bill 317 comes a year after House Bill 2345, which dealt with most of the sports the KSHSAA offers, failed to make it out of committee.

"The first bill, House Bill 2345, definitely was to relax or eliminate rules that were perceived to be restricting or limiting for select elite athletes, very capable kids who were also a part of club programs," Musselman said. "That was proposed for every sport that's under an Olympic governing body. Effectively, that would have left us with football and with golf.

"Obviously, after the hearings last March, that bill didn't go anywhere, but it also didn't go away, so it's not a dead issue yet, and may not be."

Schmidt, whose sons Jonathan and Tyler were multi-event state champions and are currently NCAA Division I swimmers, said Bill 317 would be a good testing ground in the area of dual participation, pointing out most states allow it.

"There are 38 states that have dual participation in some form in swimming, most of them with competition and practices. Seven totally ban it, and we're one of those, and five states don't offer swimming," she said.

"What I said on the Senate floor was, 'Why wouldn't we want to try this with a small group of individuals?' because if it doesn't work, then you've only affected a small amount of coaches, a small amount of athletes.' "

Schmidt said it would be up to the swimmers to decide if they even wanted extra training, apart from their high school program.

"Those students who just want to compete on a high school team that are not year-around swimmers and just want to go out for swimming, great, perfect," Schmidt said. "Their life doesn't change. And the schools that offer morning practice and afternoon practice, those student-athletes probably don't need any extra practice. Their requirements are being met."

Schmidt said one of the advantages of dual participation is athletes would be able to continue to train for the longer distances they face in non-high school competition.

"Why shouldn't a high school athlete be able to maintain their endurance training through their high school season?" she asked.

Another advantage Schmidt said is more elite swimmers would be likely to swim for their high school teams if they could continue to train with their clubs.

Schmidt's son, Jonathan, now a standout at Georgia, skipped two seasons of high school competition at Topeka High to train with his club team.

"To this day I know that on one hand he regrets not competing for his high school," Schmidt said. "On the other hand, I think he'd make that same choice if given the current practice situation today."


Musselman said the KSHSAA believes its members don't want a change.

"I think one important consideration is that not one school that's a member of this association has exercised their constitutional authority under our bylaws to propose changing these rules," Musselman said.

"That says to me that Kansas schools don't think this is necessarily a good idea in how they administer athletic programs in their schools, and that's middle school through senior high. If this is such a great idea and has so much merit why hasn't even one school proposed this formal change so we can run it through our governing system and see what our schools want to do with it?"

The bottom line, Musselman contends, is a rule change wouldn't be in the best interest of the vast majority of the state's student-athletes.

"Let's say there's 100 kids in Kansas who are truly at the Olympic elite level, which would be a huge number," Musselman said. "If there were 100 kids, is it merited, is it justifiable to change the rules that would impact literally four to five high school swimmers, and the potential ripple effect of every high school athletes — 100,000-plus kids involved in high school sports — to in some fashion give 100 kids an opportunity that they perceive that they don't have right now.

"That doesn't add up. That doesn't balance when you put that on the scale of balancing what's fair and what's in the greatest interest of the greatest number."

Basically she is saying that high school sports are for the kids that don't want to get any better. Her son could could have swam on his own all day long if the high school team wasn't working him hard enough. True for any sport, including wrestling. Might as well have just came out and said the swimming coach sucks, but my son still deserves to compete for his school even though the school had no basis for his success other than being in the right place at the right time.
Posted By: RedStorm Re: open rooms - 01/10/13 07:12 PM
Originally Posted By: Jeff Smith
A couple of quick questions for Greg, Greg & Bill.

Let’s say the rules were different and that middle school wrestlers were allowed to practice and compete outside their school’s schedule; would you be advocating on here that it should be changed and restrictions put in place disallowing them this opportunity?

After reading Troy Fowlers post, do you still believe Nate is not adversely affected by these restrictions?

Thanks for your answers!


Would never try to speak for Mr. Mann, but for me, if this were the rule across the board, there would be no need for school sponsored athletic teams. What is the purpose of our extra-curricular programs? (Notice the use of the word "curricular.")
Posted By: Mahan Re: open rooms - 01/10/13 07:39 PM
Could someone explain to me how these restrictions are good for student athletes.
How is not allowing me to work with my 8th grade stud during his club season (or freestyle) good for him, or my program or the community, how is that good for anyone to restrict opportunities for athletes. Someone please explain to me how these restrictions benefit anyone.
Posted By: GregMann Re: open rooms - 01/10/13 07:59 PM
I agree with Mr. DeWitt and also with a comment he made earlier. . . to do what it is being advocated by many on here will lead to the demise of school-sponsored sports along with the rise of European-style club sport; and, I add. . . the loss of quality sports instruction and supervision other than only for the rich elite
Posted By: doug747 Re: open rooms - 01/10/13 08:08 PM
Here is Musselman's statement:
"Let's say there's 100 kids in Kansas who are truly at the Olympic elite level, which would be a huge number," Musselman said. "If there were 100 kids, is it merited, is it justifiable to change the rules that would impact literally four to five high school swimmers, and the potential ripple effect of every high school athletes — 100,000-plus kids involved in high school sports — to in some fashion give 100 kids an opportunity that they perceive that they don't have right now."

The idiot doesn't say how this negatively affects the 99,995 kids that choose not to put the extra work in and do both club and HS/MS events and/or practices. He just implies it, so that the koolaid drinkers will not know ,but just assume, that someone is getting screwed.......And who said anything about Olympic level kids??!!

"If it just helps one kid, it is worth it" is a standard slogan for these idiots when they are pushing for something that will help their political viewpoint. But now, their story is that it will hurt everyone else, which couldn't be farther fromthe truth. YOu never hear about the 99% of people that these new laws/regulations/taxes that are designed to help the 1%, when it is that 1% that is lining their pockets..... We are not asking for more rules, we are asking for less rules. What happens when a hardworking kid is in the room? It makes everyone else work harder....What happens when kids see a kid succeeding? They emulate what that kid does. So if a kid starts having success, maybe others will follow, and the world will soon learn the lesson of hard work = success.......

KSHSAA and these idiots that want to restrict the amount of time/effort/etc a kid can put into a sport are doing nothing but trying to hold some kids back, so they don't get too far ahead of the lazy ones. PERIOD.



Posted By: sportsfan02 Re: open rooms - 01/10/13 08:09 PM
Originally Posted By: GregMann
the loss of quality sports instruction and supervision other than only for the rich elite

In watching a dual on tv recently, I believe it was Beldam, but I can't remember for sure, the color analyst lamented the lack of D1 quality kids coming out of Oklahoma. His reasoning was somewhat related to what you just said. He said that due to a low wages for teachers/coaches in the state they were lacking quality coaches at the high school level. While the reasoning might be different the results would be the same if we take our kids out of the hands of our high school coaches.
I believe the primary reason we surpass all of our neighboring states is solely because of the quality of our high school coaching.
Posted By: Jeff Smith Re: open rooms - 01/10/13 08:11 PM
"There are 38 states that have dual participation in some form in swimming, most of them with competition and practices. Seven totally ban it, and we're one of those, and five states don't offer swimming,"

How many of these 38 states that allow dual participation... have school sponsored sports?

fyi, it's a trick question.
Posted By: Cokeley Re: open rooms - 01/10/13 08:14 PM
Question for Bill...

If we remove sports from the public schools, will we get a $1 for $1 tax reduction? How many administrators would it remove? We can start going down the path of spending on our dime but not letting us have a say... I don't trust Joe Blow Superintendent to know how to raise my kid nor do I think that Gary M and KSHSAA know any better than most of the wrestling parents in this state. It seems that there has to be a better way. KSHSAA is SO slow to change ANYTHING.
Posted By: Cokeley Re: open rooms - 01/10/13 08:21 PM
Originally Posted By: GregMann
I agree with Mr. DeWitt and also with a comment he made earlier. . . to do what it is being advocated by many on here will lead to the demise of school-sponsored sports along with the rise of European-style club sport; and, I add. . . the loss of quality sports instruction and supervision other than only for the rich elite


During this stream I feel that I have indirectly been called overzealous and now rich elite... I don't feel any of those apply. I would describe myself as dedicated and passionate.

The no child left behind concept and the KSHSAA rules all look to hold the top down in hopes of bringing the bottom up and meeting in the middle. NOT GOING TO HAPPEN! The top will pull the bottom up to a higher level if given the freedom to choose and the opportunity to excel. Administrators across the state are trying to muzzle guys like Jeff, Doug, and myself because they don't want to be passionate and invest in excellence. Strive for perfection and though you might not achieve it you will find excellence. If you are not making changes to improve then you are standing still and getting passed.
Posted By: Cokeley Re: open rooms - 01/10/13 08:22 PM
Originally Posted By: GregMann
I agree with Mr. DeWitt and also with a comment he made earlier. . . to do what it is being advocated by many on here will lead to the demise of school-sponsored sports along with the rise of European-style club sport; and, I add. . . the loss of quality sports instruction and supervision other than only for the rich elite


Who is paying the bill for these activities? Those paying the bill will decide whether or not they disappear not those who are sucking the well dry and asking for more water.
Posted By: GregMann Re: open rooms - 01/10/13 08:35 PM
Save your breath and keyboard Will. You are obviously preaching to the choir on this one.
Posted By: RedStorm Re: open rooms - 01/10/13 08:38 PM
Originally Posted By: Cokeley
Question for Bill...

If we remove sports from the public schools, will we get a $1 for $1 tax reduction? How many administrators would it remove? We can start going down the path of spending on our dime but not letting us have a say... I don't trust Joe Blow Superintendent to know how to raise my kid nor do I think that Gary M and KSHSAA know any better than most of the wrestling parents in this state. It seems that there has to be a better way. KSHSAA is SO slow to change ANYTHING.


As much time as I have wasted on this post today, clearly we could stand to lose an administrator around here. When you lose faith in the school system, home school is always an option for you Will. So is freedom of coice between schools.
Posted By: doug747 Re: open rooms - 01/10/13 09:53 PM
School vouchers??!! Create some competition, and our schools would all do just as Will stated about wrestling. The top will pull the bottom up.........but of course monopolies are only legal when you are dealing with our public school system, the post office, etc. Of which all are in a mess.....
Posted By: John Johnson Re: open rooms - 01/11/13 03:11 AM
Red Storm, just got to read your comments, boy do you take things out of context. I can see you have thought about this alot and really have the best interest of the kids in mind. But, the road to hel# is paved with good intentions. You appear to be saying the needs of the individual and the needs of the team cannot co-exist. In fact, you appear to be advocating for kids to sacrafice for the good of the COACH AND SCHOOL. I do not believe the 2 cannot co-exist. Wrestling is a unique sport, the needs of the individual and the needs of the team should be the same... for the sport to work properly. Is there really any evidence to support the idea that opening up club wrestling to middle school and high school wrestlers, would destroy the sport. I very much doubt it. I really do believe all on this thread have good intentions, but the current system is designed to 'dumb' things down. Kind of like the rules in some states that say you cannot wait an extra year to start your kid in school*...it would be so unfair if someone had an advantage!! Have a good weekend.. John

*I believe the Chicago School System will not let a parent decide their kid is not mature enough for shcool and wait an extra year to start their child, they are mandated they enroll their child as soon as the age fits. The parent loses all control. They obivously do not know what is best for their child. We must keep thing fair. If we follow some of the logic on here that will be the next rule for Kansas parents.
Posted By: CWB Re: open rooms - 01/11/13 03:22 AM
I still do not get it no one is saying to get rid of school sports.Doing club and school will just make the kids better.At least it will help the ones that want to strive to get better.There is no way you can help the ones that just want to float.
If the clubs and school worked to geather on the same page,just think how good the kids will be.I fill the school coaches should know what the clubs teach.Just as the clubs should know what the school likes to teach.
This ms crap only hurts the kids in little schools and in late seasions.If my school was done befor xmas,it would not be a big deal.
Posted By: Hull DWC Re: open rooms - 01/11/13 12:46 PM
I would like to see youth wrestling stop after 6th grade. I would also like to see Free/Greco start up shortly after the High School State(no folk-style until following season). I would also like to see the FR/GR state and Southern plains later in the summer closer to Jr. and Cadet nationals. I would also like to see M.S. wrestling start in late fall, have a regional and a state tourney.
Posted By: MSvikings Re: open rooms - 01/11/13 01:08 PM
Cream will always rise to the top everytime. Our club had its first state champion last spring in the clubs history. Everyone wants to be a state champion in our room now. Is everyone going to a state champion? The answer is no. But they can workout like they can be. This new atmosphere in the room has turn our two and out kids into 3rd and 4th placer kids now. The confidence in these young men has even reached the novice kids who want to play around.

It is about choices. If the KSHAA would open their eyes and see that the change in this rule would be a great thing. If your wrestlers wants more time let them get more time in on the mat. If the wrestler does not want more time then don't. The kids who want more should not be punshied. I wonder if anyone told Bill Gates 1 million dollars is enough? Just a thought so why stop kids from bettering them selves in a sport they love?

Josh Parker Mission Valley
Posted By: RedStorm Re: open rooms - 01/11/13 06:29 PM
Nothing has been taken out of context. It was asked what the harm is in allowing kids to simultaneously compete for their club and their Middle School or High School. I gave you the reason - basically because it will lead to the elimination of school sponsored programs and DECREASE opportunities for kids. You are giving states reasons to elimate funding for extra-curricular activities and without state funding, who is going to pay for it and why would you pay for it when there is a club team that apparently does a better job?

Wrestling is more than just a unique sport. Wrestling is the greatest sport known to mankind. My rationale is not to deprive kids of choices. My rationale is to ensure that wrestling programs can be preserved as an extention of the school curriculum. We are one of several sports and they all want more time during the school year. We are fortunate to have the ability to coach our kids as much as we want through the summer without penalty. If we make exceptions here and there, then all sports will want exceptions here and there and eventually the integrity of interscholastic school competitions are nonexistent.

This isn't about fairness. You are not being asked to have your quicker wrestlers wear ankle weights during practice to slow them down. This is about supporting the school teams, so yes, that means committing to the program's coach and school.

If you don't think I care about our sport and that I don't want to allow opportunities for our kids to get better, then quite frankly, you don't know a thing about me.

A newly released 2013 annual rankins from Education Week has our schools ranked 37th in the country based on 13 indicators, such as high school graduation, family income and preschool and kindergarten enrollment. Clearly, we have bigger fish to fry than a handful of exceptional wrestlers who feel they must compete in both programs in order to successfully advance their educations.
Posted By: Mahan Re: open rooms - 01/11/13 07:57 PM
my question was not about competing simultaneously, but rather being allowed to compete after the high school or MS season during March April May. What is the possible harm in allowing HS coaches to work with their kids during those times? What are the benefits in restricting those opportunities? Who is hurt if I coach an 8th grade stud at a tournament over Christmas? or take a freshman and work with him throughout the kids state tournament series? Who is possibly hurt by that except our opponents who don't want to put in that time? and in America that should be their problem, not mine. If I want to coach 9 months a year and I got kids willing to wrestle 9 months a year, who is hurt, and how is there any possible benefit to those restrictions. KSHSAA is ridiculous with that....grrrrrr
Posted By: doug747 Re: open rooms - 01/12/13 04:32 AM
Scare tactics.........BS


Unbelievable
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