Kansas Wrestling
Posted By: Just Wondering Video Gate - 01/12/14 03:32 PM
Was sitting in the stands during finals at Derby. There appeared to be some drama after 126 finals match. All you could make out from the stands was that Coach Church " had passed the test". Anyone that was there or involved explain what was issue was?
Posted By: DeShazerwrestle! Re: Video Gate - 01/12/14 09:33 PM
WiLL Coakley the Dad of Coakley the wrestler of 126 pounds of SJA was filming and had a couple of parents( his friends) filming the match , which is against the rules!! IF YOU WANT TO RECORD A MATCH JUST MAKE SURE YOUR KID IS ON THE MATT WRESTLING AT THAT TIME.
Posted By: Chief Renegade Re: Video Gate - 01/12/14 09:45 PM
Will was sitting next to me in the stands and did NOT film the match. There was a mom on our left that did film it but I have no idea who that was. The bottom line is this. There were over fifty cell phones out in the gym filming it. There is no penalty whatsoever for filming this year. The rule was changed at the national level.
Posted By: PatrickCavanaugh Re: Video Gate - 01/12/14 10:11 PM
Dang, I love this forum. Matt? Mat! Posters beware of who you call out and pick fights with. Cracking me up.
Posted By: RichardDSalyer Re: Video Gate - 01/12/14 11:00 PM
Originally Posted By: Chief Renegade
The rule was changed at the national level.

National Federation of State High School Associations
Wrestling Rules Book 2013-2014
Rule 1-1-3 (page 6)
Video recording is authorized unless prohibited by the state high school association.

KSHSAA Wrestling Manual 2013-2014 (page 13)
1.M Filming or Video Taping Matches
Any filming or video taping for the purpose of review during competition is prohibited. This includes multiple day tournaments. Video taping and camera filming are considered one and the same and can only occur when there is competition between your wrestler and an opponent. Again, taping and filming cannot take place when you do not have a wrestler involved at that time. The only exception would be the state consolation and championship finals where video taping and camera filming of any match is permissible.
Posted By: Chief Renegade Re: Video Gate - 01/12/14 11:51 PM
I did see that rule still included in our state manual. I don't know the details, but had heard that the rule changed in Kansas also and that rule was marked to be deleted and was not for this year. Isn't it reduced to a suggestion without an actual penalty?
Posted By: Brent Lane Re: Video Gate - 01/13/14 01:08 AM
Here is the link to the KSHSAA manual. See page 13 1M. KSHSAA Manual
Posted By: tryingtobesilent Re: Video Gate - 01/13/14 01:13 AM
Sean is a special wrestler! You could follow him around with a camcorder all season long and I would bet the farm that he still wins state this season!
Posted By: PatrickCavanaugh Re: Video Gate - 01/13/14 01:34 AM
Lame Richard. Lame. Like I said, be careful about those you pick fights with. Richard does not play well with others on this forum or face to face.
Posted By: M.Church_AD Re: Video Gate - 01/13/14 02:40 AM
Okay, let's put this one to rest. I'll summarize it and call it good. Will was following the National Rule and thought video taping was okay. He was under the idea that KSHSAA had changed the rule based on the National Rule. I saw one woman filming close to the SJA section (She was probably more interested in McDonald than Deshazer) and two of my other coaches saw two other people filming in the SJA section (Who probably wanted to get film on Sean).

I brought it to the attention of the Derby A.D. He correctly and swiftly addressed and corrected the issue with the fans that were pointed out. Mr. Baldwin is a good A.D. and does not play around!

Will tried to convince me that the rule had changed. I tried to convince him it had not. Now, I did not say "I passed the test". I simply stated, "I actually took the rules test and it did not change". (I actually answer all 100 questions and don't just get answers from others). After a heated debate, Will and I parted ways for a while. I knew the National Rule and change, but I also knew that the KSHSAA Manual stated that you could not film opponents whom you were not competing against at that time (Summary) just as Richard listed above. While I may not be the greatest coach in the world (As one of my parents has let me know over and over again that I am the worst coach in Kansas), I keep a very close tab on rules as directed by my A.D. and KSHSAA.

I keep the KSHSAA Manual on my phone for days like these. I pulled Rule 1.M up screen shot it and sent it to Will via text messsage with a message that said, "I will drop it tonight with an apology". Will looked at the text, made his way across the gym, explained again what he thought, admitted he was wrong and asked if we were good (That's an apology from Will for those of you that know him well). And now guess what, we are good!

I don't have time to get into petty arguements but I am going to back my kid every time in a situation like this.

Now, with that being said:

KSHSAA needs to change the rule for next year. Just remove all video rules. Times have changed and there are too many recording devices out there to police it. But while it is a rule, it needs to be followed. When you can film on a phone, tablet or even a watch... Good luck! I am sure the matches hit the internet before I got home from my 30 min drive.

As far as the Deshazer's and Cokely's are concerned... It's been a decade long fued....I hope someday both can find peace and just move on. Both love wrestling, both love their families, both will battle for their families under any circumstances... both have more in common than they know. While I believe it is more of an adult issue as I think the kids of these families will be fine being in a room with each other after all of their time together in this sport! smile

Now, let's get back to what matters... getting better and watching a great show in February!
Posted By: JJETC Re: Video Gate - 01/13/14 03:34 PM
I love me some Coach Church! PREACH!! Lets all get along and move on. agreed smile
Posted By: haskins6 Re: Video Gate - 01/13/14 04:41 PM
Heights wrestling is getting better every week. Church is a great coach wouldn't trade him for any other coach.
Posted By: Cokeley Re: Video Gate - 01/13/14 05:20 PM
I did not video the match and I did not concede to Coach Church that he was right. I did not have the lady sitting in front of us video the match. I don't need to record what I am watching and I have seen Sean plenty of times. The finals were being recorded as they are for lots of tournaments so they can be posted and enjoyed by all those who couldn't make it to the tournament.

Did anyone complain when I posted every finals from The Bobcat and other tournaments? Did I complain when three versions of the Cade Blair vs Ryne Cokeley finals from Derby were posted on youtube? HECK NO! I have NEVER looked into the crowd to see if anyone if videoing matches or to see who is. I could care less.

I was delighted to hear Mark Lentz tell us that KSHSAA was adopting the NFHSAA video rule. See slides 17,18, and 19 on this link http://kshsaa.org/Meetings/Public/Coach/Wrestling/player.html

I raised my hand at the rules meeting conducted at Olathe South HS on October 8th. I asked Mark Lentz if this change would be updated in the handbook and if we were then going to be allowed to video any matches. He answered by saying we were adopting the NFHSAA rule. I followed this up later with an email of the paragraph everyone is quoting. As you can see if you viewed and listened to the slides, the rules meeting is in direct conflict with the Handbook paragraph. I never received any further clarification so I assumed based on this chain of events KSHSAA was adopting the NFHSAA rule which permits all video recording of matches.

If the Handbook trumps then there can be no review of video with a wrestler during a tournament. So is part of the paragraph being enforced and not the rest? It is uncertain and I don't see how the rule can apply to spectators as I am guessing 90% have NO IDEA that such a rule exists.

If the rule is enforced then there can be no live streaming and archiving of matches.

If the rule is enforced then we need to discover the poster of all KSHSAA matches on youtube.

Are those two things good for promoting wrestling?? NO!!

I question whether the rule applies to spectators. Does it say ANYWHERE in the handbook that it does? I read it as applying to competitors, coaches, and employees of the member schools.

Has anyone EVER heard them announce at the beginning of a tournament that no video recording is permitted unless it is of your own kid?? I know I never have.

Coaches, do you have a parents meeting to educate your parents about the video recording rule? You all know the answer is NO!

Why have a rule that can only be truly enforced by having everyone leaving their video recording devices outside of the gym? Why have a rule that damages our sport. I agree with the poster that said you can watch all of the video you want, doesn't mean you will beat someone.

This is just another case of a governmental organization not keeping pace with technology. Abolish the rule. One AD told me that there is NO way he is going to patrol this or even attempt to enforce it. He says a majority of AD's want the rule to be stricken. KSHSAA needs to decide whether or not their meetings are going to be consistent with their publications too.

You can google or youtube search all of my sons and there are plenty of matches publicly available. Have fun watching them. I would be flattered if someone was filming any of them. Good luck to them because it takes hours of practice, hard work and dedication to be a champ, a piece of electronic media is not a substitute for ANY of those things.

Good luck to all. I hope EVERYONE records and posts every match the rest of the year! It is the best way to promote our sport!
Posted By: M.Church_AD Re: Video Gate - 01/13/14 07:19 PM
I will be the first one to say abolish video rules and be done with it. However, when a rule is contested, it is contested by going to the current KSHSAA Manuel. You never say, "Look in the rules slide show" when you are trying to contest a rule. The Manual trumps all unless an email is sent out to all state A.D.'s modifying the handbook! This has not been done.

Maybe Mark Lentz should just do it now and get it done and we never have to worry about it again! I agree with most of what Will says.. We just have to disagree here until Mr. Lentz makes a rule change official for and publicly puts it on the KSHSAA Website!

On that note, let's also change the weigh in rules to meet the National Rules Standards and abolish the morning weigh in for duals.

And yes, Will.... You did concede and it's okay to do that in life sometimes!
Posted By: Beeson Re: Video Gate - 01/13/14 07:25 PM
Originally Posted By: FalconCoach
I will be the first one to say abolish video rules and be done with it. However, when a rule is contested, it is contested by going to the current KSHSAA Manuel. You never say, "Look in the rules slide show" when you are trying to contest a rule. The Manual trumps all unless an email is sent out to all state A.D.'s modifying the handbook! This has not been done.

Maybe Mark Lentz should just do it now and get it done and we never have to worry about it again! I agree with most of what Will says.. We just have to disagree here until Mr. Lentz makes a rule change official for and publicly puts it on the KSHSAA Website!

On that note, let's also change the weigh in rules to meet the National Rules Standards and abolish the morning weigh in for duals.
And yes, Will.... You did concede and it's okay to do that in life sometimes!


And NOW COACH CHURCH is my HERO. What a wonderful idea to teach these young men how it is going to be in College. A Wonderful Suggestion. I have never understood why Kansas has not followed the NFHS rules on this. We could take it one step further and just step into line with the NFSH rulebook. That would make messes like what happened this weekend obsolete.
Posted By: back in the day Re: Video Gate - 01/13/14 08:48 PM


I was at the same officials meeting at Olathe South. Surprised there was a big stink over any filming. thought that issue was taken care of. Perhaps Mr. Lentz needs to update the rest of the world.
Posted By: GregMann Re: Video Gate - 01/13/14 08:57 PM
#1 The National Federation rule regarding video was adopted by the KSHSAA. Unfortunately, the KSHSAA wrestling manual was not changed. The rule change was part of the on-line rules meeting presentation (as provided by Will). I hope there will be a reaffirmation coming from the KSHSAA of the rule change having taken place in Kansas.

#2 I am pretty sure Coach Church was a member of the KSHSAA Weight Loss Committee, as was I. He may have a different memory of those deliberations, but I do not remember there being any discussion whatsoever during any of the committee meetings (and I missed only one) about the need to depart from morning weigh-ins. In fact, I remember the two physicians on the committee being quite complimentary of Kansas for having morning weigh-ins. If we are going to "toe the line" we will also need to adopt the NFS weight control plan.

Posted By: Shawk1995 Re: Video Gate - 01/13/14 08:58 PM
What a silly rule. Impossible to enforce. It doesn't say you can't record, it states that you can't record "with the purpose of reviewing"...

So I can record all that I want, I just can't watch it.

KSHSAA Wrestling Manual 2013-2014 (page 13)
1.M Filming or Video Taping Matches
Any filming or video taping for the purpose of review during competition is prohibited.
Posted By: Carroll Re: Video Gate - 01/14/14 01:15 AM
Church

Get idea about us following the National Weigh in policy Im all for it.


Josh Carroll
Posted By: Rford Re: Video Gate - 01/14/14 02:18 AM
While I think this is probably just a hold-over in the current manual based upon the prior rule, isn't the intent to prevent a team from video taping another team's wrestler for purposes of scouting at the time the contest is occurring? As noted above, the prohibition relates to reviewing during competition. It also refers to "your" wrestler. Since this is a KSHAA publication, I read "your" as meaning the school's, not the parent.

Film away.
Posted By: Rford Re: Video Gate - 01/14/14 02:19 AM
While I think this is probably just a hold-over in the current manual based upon the prior rule, isn't the intent to prevent a team from video taping another team's wrestler for purposes of scouting at the time the contest is occurring? As noted above, the prohibition relates to reviewing during competition. It also refers to "your" wrestler. Since this is a KSHAA publication, I read "your" as meaning the school's, not the parent.
Posted By: Thompson Re: Video Gate - 01/14/14 02:22 AM
1st in answer to your question about educating parents--the answer is yes, we inform them and if we see them in violation, we stop them immediately too.
All that slide show says is that video recording is authorized, but then it goes on to state that it communication with wrestlers using electronic devices is permissible during injury and blood time and can never be shared with an official. It says nothing in reference to KSHSAA rule 1.M and it is very vague. I am not sure what you could share in that short of a period of time anyway.
Here is the KSHSAA Rule:
1.M Filming or Video Taping Matches

Any filming or video taping for the purpose of review during competition is prohibited. This includes multiple day tournaments. Video taping and camera filming are considered one and the same and can only occur when there is
competition between your wrestler and an opponent. Again, taping and filming cannot take place when you do not have a wrestler involved at that time. The only exception would be the state consolation and championship finals where
video taping and camera filming of any match is permissible.

Furthermore, whether you like the rule or not, it is still a rule. I posted on this a couple of years ago and you knew the rule then too and did not wish to follow it. This is what Mr. Cokeley told me in December of 2010 on this forum: "The rule is basically unknown to most and unenforceable. How many cameras are in the gym during the finals? How many cell phones with video capability? This rule is being violated EVERY weekend. I have said it before and I will say it again, I will post all matches I have on tape and I hope that everyone reviews them because it will raise the level of ability across the board. Coaches that don't want to abolish this rule must be too lazy to use tape to analyze matches."

My response then included the following: "What is lost here is that you can review tape, there is just procedure as to when you are reviewing the tape of your wrestlers' matches. I still stand by the fact that we cannot teach our kids to disregard rules because we don't like them."

Suffice it to say that until Mr. Lentz tells us this is not the case, it is a rule. If you want to disregard the rules, then you have free will to do what you feel is best. We are required to take the rules test and that includes the NFHS rules and the KSHSAA wrestling manual. And, I read them both in their entirety. Lazy is not in my vocabulary and posting emphatically does not make you right.
Posted By: Cokeley Re: Video Gate - 01/14/14 04:07 AM
The test is the NFHSAA test not the KSHSAA test. When Mark says that we are adopting the NFHSAA rule and I ask "Does that mean we can video any match we want to?" and he says we are adopting the NFHSAA rule what am I to conclude from that? The rules meeting and the handbook are in direct conflict with each other.

I guarantee you that you have not covered this rule with all of your parents prior to the start of the season.

Acting high and mighty doesn't make you right either Tate.
Posted By: Cokeley Re: Video Gate - 01/14/14 04:09 AM
Originally Posted By: Shawk1995
What a silly rule. Impossible to enforce. It doesn't say you can't record, it states that you can't record "with the purpose of reviewing"...

So I can record all that I want, I just can't watch it.

KSHSAA Wrestling Manual 2013-2014 (page 13)
1.M Filming or Video Taping Matches
Any filming or video taping for the purpose of review during competition is prohibited.


Very profound! How do you argue with that logic Coach Thompson?
Posted By: GregMann Re: Video Gate - 01/14/14 04:31 AM
"Suffice it to say that until Mr. Lentz tells us this is not the case, it is a rule."

#1. Tate, I know this is not what you mean, but the narrator of the webinar IS Mr. Lentz.

#2. A valid point made about the "authorized" video streaming that is now going on. We had two different organizations video streaming our tournament on Saturday. Since they were not coaches, were they in violation of the rule and should not have ben allowed to ply their trade? Or, do the rules apply only to coaches, and if so, is it therefore it legal for anyone else to video?

I made the statement several years ago, and will stand by it, that it is IMPOSSIBLE to eliminate the use of video. . . every cheap cell phone has video capability as do $50 android tablets. I think relaxing of the rule is simply acknowledging that technology is way ahead of our ability to enforce a rule that was put in place at a time video equipment was so expensive it was truly a competitive advantage to have it; that is certainly no longer the case.

And, I really can't believe that I am arguing in favor of Will's point-of-view.
Posted By: Cokeley Re: Video Gate - 01/14/14 04:37 AM
13. A member school may not film any other school’s activity contest if they do not have participants in that activity without
written permission from the involved school principals in advance of the contest. Page 7 of the Wrestling Manual


After a complete and thorough review of the handbook I agree with Official Ford. There is NO MENTION of the afore mentioned "video rule" applying to non competitors or non school affiliates/employees. It does NOT mention spectator filming ANYWHERE in the manual. In fact, he rule above addresses ONLY schools. There are some very specific examples given for many other situations and I might add MANY of those examples are being violated and/or not complied to at every tournament. If it is supposed to apply to spectators then the rule should explicitly say so. Lets just quit the game playing and selective enforcement! Adopt the NFHSAA rule as stated and lets move on. Are you in this for the spirit of improvement or should we continue operating in the dark ages?
Posted By: Thompson Re: Video Gate - 01/14/14 04:47 AM
1. I was not there for your conversation with Mark Lentz.
2. We take a rules test that includes items from the NFHS and the KSHSAA Wrestling Manual.
3. I cannot cover everything with all of my parents at the start of the season if they are not at our initial meeting. If I ever miss covering this, I take care of it during our 1st competition or any time I see a possible violation. This has nothing to do with whether the rule stated is being followed.
4. I am not acting high and mighty, but my interpretation of the slides and the manual obviously differ from you in this case. I will contact Mark Lentz tomorrow and get clarification.
If there has been a change, I will post it on the forum or ask Mark if he will send something out to all ADs and coaches.
Posted By: Thompson Re: Video Gate - 01/14/14 04:51 AM
This is where it is necessary to read the entire rule, which I am not sure is happening. The meaning of this rule is that you cannot tape and review your matches the same day they occur. I tell my wrestlers this all of the time when they want to review film of matches on the same day. I am not sure why this confuses you. It doesn't say you can't watch it. It says you cannot watch it on the same day you film it.

See Below
1.M Filming or Video Taping Matches

Any filming or video taping for the purpose of review during competition is prohibited. This includes multiple day tournaments. Video taping and camera filming are considered one and the same and can only occur when there is
competition between your wrestler and an opponent. Again, taping and filming cannot take place when you do not have a wrestler involved at that time. The only exception would be the state consolation and championship finals where
video taping and camera filming of any match is permissible.
Posted By: Thompson Re: Video Gate - 01/14/14 04:55 AM
I know who the narrator of the webinar is Mr. Mann. He says his name and it is written on the presentation and it is right by his picture. Thank you for letting me know, though.
Posted By: Cokeley Re: Video Gate - 01/14/14 05:03 AM
3. You don't cover the video taping rule with your parents then it must only be important to you when it pertains to me? The Wrestling Manual is NOT publicly distributed and is ONLY available to member schools and officials. The video rule does NOT clearly state that it pertains to spectators. This absence is obvious evidence that the rule SHOULD not apply to spectators.

1. Multiple people have substantiated that the conversation took place at the rules meeting. Are you stating that you cannot rely on my report that this conversation took place?

2. 2013-14 NFHS Wrestling Exam – Part I
All Head Coaches (HS/MS) and KSHSAA Registered Officials are required to take an open-book exam.
INSTRUCTIONS: Please study & answer the following 100 questions. You will be responsible to provide answers for a random sampling of 50 questions. The test will
be administered on-line. Questions are true/false or multiple choice (please select only one answer for multiple choice questions). Please retain the questions for
further study.

It is the NFHS exam. That is why some questions are dropped and not counted because of modifications. Are you taking a different test??


4. You stated this "Lazy is not in my vocabulary and posting emphatically does not make you right." I never called you lazy and I am just posting the facts and my interpretation. Where do I try to leverage emphatically to make my interpretation right?

What is your axe to grind with me?
Posted By: Cokeley Re: Video Gate - 01/14/14 05:05 AM
Originally Posted By: Thompson
This is where it is necessary to read the entire rule, which I am not sure is happening. The meaning of this rule is that you cannot tape and review your matches the same day they occur. I tell my wrestlers this all of the time when they want to review film of matches on the same day. I am not sure why this confuses you. It doesn't say you can't watch it. It says you cannot watch it on the same day you film it.

See Below
1.M Filming or Video Taping Matches

Any filming or video taping for the purpose of review during competition is prohibited. This includes multiple day tournaments. Video taping and camera filming are considered one and the same and can only occur when there is
competition between your wrestler and an opponent. Again, taping and filming cannot take place when you do not have a wrestler involved at that time. The only exception would be the state consolation and championship finals where
video taping and camera filming of any match is permissible.


Tate,
The new rule in the power point presentation provides that you CAN review the video during the match!! On the same day!! It is directly conflicting with the handbook statement you keep quoting! Are you missing this??
Posted By: GregMann Re: Video Gate - 01/14/14 05:11 AM
Here is the email that I received from Mr. Lentz earlier today when I queried him regarding the KSHSAA Manual vs.the Rules meeting:

"The video rule was changed by the NFHS. . .The (KSHSAA) manual is incorrect and was printed prior the clarification/interpretation from the NFHS. I tried to make this clear in the rules meeting, but apparently that is not the case. I will try and send something out to all schools. . . "
Posted By: Thompson Re: Video Gate - 01/14/14 05:36 AM
I have no axe to grind. I never said I didn't cover that with parents, either. I said I can only cover that with parents who are at our initial meeting, if not, I tell them or have the athletes tell their parents as we go through the season. The rule is not ignored. I do not clearly see what you are seeing in the presentation.

I emailed Mr. Lentz tonight and will wait for a response tomorrow. If this is the case, I said I would post it here. I have had to remind parents and athletes of this rule for a long time. If it is changed, that is not really clear in the slides as Coach Church mentioned on the same topic in another thread. All that the slide says is that video recording is authorized as he is talking about electronic devices at matside. We have not been told any new information--it is not clear in the slides.

So, as Eric says on the other page that it is crystal clear and neither Coach Church nor myself see it as crystal clear, a clarification is needed from Mark Lentz on the matter. This is a discussion board and my opinion is as valid as anyone else. I don't have time to contact Mr. Lentz over matters like this normally, especially when the rule was still in place in the manual that we are required to read on a yearly basis. Eric Johnson(on the other thread) also mentions that every mom dad and spectator has always been able to record whatever they want which has also never been my interpretation as that would make it easy for schools to just have parents record for them if they wanted to scout other schools, which is not the intent of the rule at all.

Mr. Mann of Norton just posted a quoted email from Mark Lentz that says he will send something out to schools, which means that has not happened yet and I know I am not the only coach that was under the impression that the rule that was in effect is in effect.
Posted By: GregMann Re: Video Gate - 01/14/14 11:46 AM
People who read the Manual, know the rules and try to uphold the letter and the spirit of the rules are to be commended; not criticized.

It is unfortunate that the Manual is inaccurate and a better effort could/should be made to get the word out that it is inaccurate.

The email I received from Mr. Lentz was received late in the afternoon. I/We do not know what the CoC at the KSHSAA is in regards to sending out notices; can Mr. Lentz do this without approval or does he have get it approved before sending it out? How long does it take to get it posted on the website? Maybe the guy who does that had gone home for the day. We do not know. Just because we want to see it NOW, does not mean we will see it NOW.

That the rule has been changed and the rule in the Manual is wrong has been established.
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