Kansas Wrestling
Posted By: M.Church_AD Inflating Records - 01/15/15 02:10 PM
As I prepare for seeding meetings I tend to catch myself going to teams that use track wrestling and comparing the records they turn in to the records on track wrestling. Then I noticed something that might be hard to catch if you did not go through and click on each teams competition on their schedule.

Some schools are counting bye's as wins on their athletes records. When I commit or approve stats from competition, I always delete matches with bye's and when the box shows up that says count bye's I always click no. I could be wrong and please, someone, correct me if I am. But bye's do not (and should not) count as wins on season record correct?

I am under the impression you count forfeits from dual's and forfeits or defaults in tournaments as wins, but taking the first round bye, or the back door bye's and counting them is wrong.

In the past, I have been against forcing anything on anyone in this country. However, I am buying in more and more that KSHSAA should adopt Track Wrestling as the universal program for stats and tournament programs.

Thoughts, input, etc. etc.

I am not here to call anyone out, but instead try to get us all as close to the same page as possible.

-Churchie
Posted By: Travis Phippen Re: Inflating Records - 01/15/15 02:16 PM
I agree 100%
Posted By: Aaron Haselwood Re: Inflating Records - 01/15/15 02:23 PM
Agreed. It would be much easier if all teams had track and used track at their duals/tournaments.

However, I'm still stuck on not forcing someone to purchase a commercial product. Although, I do feel that if those that do not track would give it a try they wouldn't want to go with anything else...

Someone on one of these threads here at some point suggested that Track give every school district a free trial. I think this would be huge.
Posted By: Lars Lueders Re: Inflating Records - 01/15/15 02:26 PM
Coach,

Definitely agree. Byes are definitely not wins while forfeits from dual meets are. I agree on adopting trackwrestling as a state - especially if we are going to do seeding meetings where common opponents are used as a criteria.
Posted By: M.Church_AD Re: Inflating Records - 01/15/15 02:27 PM
Coach Haselwood: You and I are on the very same page here!! I also believe that KSHSAA has deep enough pockets to purchase these programs for schools to use and not forcing schools to buy it themselves. We are using it for the State Series, why not provide the product for the schools to use as well!
Posted By: Coach Bode Re: Inflating Records - 01/15/15 03:07 PM
Originally Posted By: FalconCoach
We are using it for the State Series, why not provide the product for the schools to use as well!


This could also lead to seeding the State tournament since the "dirty work" of looking up criteria would already be done...

We use it, we love it...and we don't count byes as wins wink
Posted By: Cokeley Re: Inflating Records - 01/15/15 03:34 PM
It is time to address the difference between OPEN and a BYE. With the popularity of Scramble format tournaments some directors, properly IMO, enter a team's absence of a competitor as an OPEN not as a BYE. Our own REGIONAL tournaments should be handled this way. Teams and wrestlers should not be penalized due to the inability of a school, team, or coach to fill his roster. Team points are NOT awarded for a BYE but they are for an open. OPENS should count as wins just as they do in a dual.

BYES should only be used when you have too few teams to fill a bracket for example when a 32 team bracket but only 28 schools entered.
Posted By: Beeson Re: Inflating Records - 01/15/15 03:47 PM
Does track just give a overall record? Varsity/JV or does it seperate the two. I have heard of coaches going into a seeding meeting and using JV records for Varsity competition.
Posted By: M.Church_AD Re: Inflating Records - 01/15/15 04:06 PM
If you don't go out and get your hand raised it is not a win in the record books. If we are saying you have to have a winning record to be seeded, and you are 15-15 but 7 wins via BYE or OPEN that is not right. It's how many guys you were paired up with that you either got your hand raised (Win) or did not (Loss).

My records are separate. It's all based on how you label the wrestlers I believe. If he is labeled Varsity, then it counts his varsity win/loss.
Posted By: Lars Lueders Re: Inflating Records - 01/15/15 05:40 PM
The principle is the same for a scramble tournament and a bracketed tournament, in my opinion. If it's a 16 man bracket tournament with 16 teams - and a kid has a bye it's because a team couldn't fill a weight(obviously). That has never been labeled a win in the history of wrestling.

The same goes with scramble tournaments. If it's a bye, it's a bye.

I really don't like to post on here with my opinions and try to only use the site for the promotion of our program. However - if there are coaches out there that think byes are wins for a varsity record, then that needs to be addressed by someone in KSHSAA.
Posted By: M.Church_AD Re: Inflating Records - 01/15/15 05:43 PM
Originally Posted By: Lars Lueders
The principle is the same for a scramble tournament and a bracketed tournament, in my opinion. If it's a 16 man bracket tournament with 16 teams - and a kid has a bye it's because a team couldn't fill a weight(obviously). That has never been labeled a win in the history of wrestling.

The same goes with scramble tournaments. If it's a bye, it's a bye.

I really don't like to post on here with my opinions and try to only use the site for the promotion of our program. However - if there are coaches out there that think byes are wins for a varsity record, then that needs to be addressed by someone in KSHSAA.


Agreed!
Posted By: Cokeley Re: Inflating Records - 01/15/15 06:37 PM
Originally Posted By: Lars Lueders
The principle is the same for a scramble tournament and a bracketed tournament, in my opinion. If it's a 16 man bracket tournament with 16 teams - and a kid has a bye it's because a team couldn't fill a weight(obviously). That has never been labeled a win in the history of wrestling.

The same goes with scramble tournaments. If it's a bye, it's a bye.

I really don't like to post on here with my opinions and try to only use the site for the promotion of our program. However - if there are coaches out there that think byes are wins for a varsity record, then that needs to be addressed by someone in KSHSAA.


Lars,

What is the difference between getting your hand raised in a dual team tournament when a team has a void vs a scramble? They are EXACTLY the same. "In the history of wrestling..." there have been many, many changes. Scrambles and dual tournaments are fairly new to the scene. Everything evolves. Saying "In the history of wrestling..." is the equivalent of saying "because we have always done it that way" the most ignorant sentence in the English language. Why should a wrestler or team be penalized because another team couldn't fill their line up? If you don't count the win in a scramble then you shouldn't count it in a dual either.
Posted By: master blaster Re: Inflating Records - 01/15/15 06:47 PM
If you didn't wrestle its not a win! Period!
Posted By: TateLoweDC Re: Inflating Records - 01/15/15 07:00 PM
Coaches should not be able to count byes or opens from a dual or tournament towards an individuals record when discussing seeding criteria. However, in a dual format if a team can not fill a weight then the kid that is in that weight class should get the team points (which is obvious), but it should not be allowed to count towards his overall record. However, in a tournament I believe you should be able to get advancement points for your team if you draw a bye.
Posted By: Joe Knecht Re: Inflating Records - 01/15/15 07:03 PM
Originally Posted By: master blaster
If you didn't wrestle its not a win! Period!


Completely agree! No wrestle, no win, no doubt!

@Will - I think you are mixing up the issue. Surely you don't believe you would get a 'win' for a bye or an open for that matter. I don't see anyone getting penalized in this case but I do see someone getting something (a win) for nothing (not wrestling).

If you are thinking of the tournament team point issue, that takes care of itself IF the standard were to award the bye points if they win their next one or they don't have another match vs them winning their next match. Doing this would give reward/incentive to a team that fills their roster.

Doing this way removes the need to treat byes and opens differently as really they are the same. Neither actually create a match and should be considered that way.
Posted By: RJW1 Re: Inflating Records - 01/15/15 07:10 PM
Originally Posted By: Joe Knecht
Originally Posted By: master blaster
If you didn't wrestle its not a win! Period!


Completely agree! No wrestle, no win, no doubt!

@Will - I think you are mixing up the issue. Surely you don't believe you would get a 'win' for a bye or an open for that matter. I don't see anyone getting penalized in this case but I do see someone getting something (a win) for nothing (not wrestling).

If you are thinking of the tournament team point issue, that takes care of itself IF the standard were to award the bye points if they win their next one or they don't have another match vs them winning their next match. Doing this would give reward/incentive to a team that fills their roster.

Doing this way removes the need to treat byes and opens differently as really they are the same. Neither actually create a match and should be considered that way.


This would not really fix the issue Will is talking about because you can't score bonus when you get a bye unless they make it an open and give bonus!
Posted By: Cokeley Re: Inflating Records - 01/15/15 07:13 PM
I agree with needing to win on the mat but I KNOW that coaches count FF in a dual on their records. Yes, I am going after the team point issue but they are connected in the argument. I think we need to establish both.

No wrestle, no win.

No wrestler equals OPEN or FF in any format.

A BYE is only used to FILL IN when there are not enough teams.

It is a simple standard. Put it in the NFHSA rule book. Done Deal.
Posted By: Kit Harris Re: Inflating Records - 01/15/15 07:15 PM
I would agree with Will's proposal on this.
Posted By: Lars Lueders Re: Inflating Records - 01/15/15 07:35 PM
Will- I'm not saying I'm not open for change. I thought what was being discussed was coaches counting byes as wins right now, this season, regardless of the format. Right now all coaches should be doing the same thing and what coaches are supposed to do is not count byes for wins , only dual forfeit wins. If someone proposes the rule you were talking about and it gets changed, I'm all good with it. I just want to make sure all coaches are doing the same thing this year for seeding and such. Otherwise I need to tack 20 more wins on all of my kids' career records. Dodge will have a lot of kids join the 100 win club in a hurry.
Posted By: Beeson Re: Inflating Records - 01/15/15 08:23 PM
A wrestler makes it to the Semi-Finals. Does not make weight, the next day there is a FF to get in for 3rd and 4th, there is also a FF for the 5th and 6th place match. Do you count that as wins for the wrestlers involved in those two place matches?
Posted By: Westfahl Re: Inflating Records - 01/15/15 08:37 PM
Unfortunately, they always have counted that because the match was official because the guy actually defaulted. In that case we have counted that forever all over the country. The ones I object to are people claiming wins for matches that were simply open in duals. Next year we are going to address that at the Bobcat. I've seen a lot of those and they should not be counted because there was never a match to be defaulted. In my mind there is a clear difference between a default and a forfeit. Team scores accumulate but the individual record should not prosper for it. Bet you tail Wayne didn't count them smile
Posted By: Cokeley Re: Inflating Records - 01/15/15 10:20 PM
Chad,

Those would be the same as INJ DEF which would occur if a wrestler is injured during a tournament. By rule those are individual W's as it stands today and a team earns points equivalent to a fall for bonus.
Posted By: M.Church_AD Re: Inflating Records - 01/15/15 10:33 PM
I count that as a win. By rule the wrestler still has to go to the match, dressed to compete and get his hand raised. So yes. I am not understanding the Open in a scramble tournament. If there is one Open does everyone not get the bye at some point and there for it is a wash??? Dead serious... not being a smart aleck?
Posted By: M.Church_AD Re: Inflating Records - 01/15/15 10:35 PM
An open in a dual is labelled a forfeit. Kid still has to appear and get his hand raised to get the team points. Therefore, I believe that can count on his record. There is a difference between 1st round Bye and Forfeit in a Dual.
Posted By: Just Wondering Re: Inflating Records - 01/15/15 11:02 PM
Wow, jumping in the car and heading back to Parsons to update the record books. Bye, Forfeit, Inj Default, Default for any reason ( guy gets kick out of tournament, guy doesnt wrestle a girl, guy doesnt make wieght) all count as wins?

No wonder I see some many kids with 100,120,130 wins in a career.
Posted By: Spexy Re: Inflating Records - 01/15/15 11:07 PM
Agree, 100%, with Mr. Church. A bye shouldn't count. But, an open at any dual should. The wrestler made the weight to compete, not his fault there was nobody to wrestle. Or even worse, they sat varsity wrestlers, to keep there stats up, avoiding a loss.
And it happens!
Posted By: Coach Fitz Re: Inflating Records - 01/16/15 01:21 AM
I believe competition points play into this debate. If a dual meet costs my kid a competition point, and the other team is open, I don't think it's unreasonable to log that as a W.

My kid made weight. He was ready to wrestle. It's counting against his overall number of competitions allowed. I have no problem with that being considered a win on their record.

Now, if an open in a dual no longer cost a competition point I would feel a bit different on the subject.
Posted By: Cokeley Re: Inflating Records - 01/16/15 02:42 AM
Originally Posted By: Spexy
Agree, 100%, with Mr. Church. A bye shouldn't count. But, an open at any dual should. The wrestler made the weight to compete, not his fault there was nobody to wrestle. Or even worse, they sat varsity wrestlers, to keep there stats up, avoiding a loss.
And it happens!


And how does this differ from a scramble when a coach leaves a kid home because he doesn't think he is ready or doesn't want to give up pin points in a tournament?? The wrestler made weight and wants to earn points for his team just like in the dual. This dual vs tournament is a hair splitter. Either you wrestle or you don't!!
Posted By: Cokeley Re: Inflating Records - 01/16/15 02:43 AM
Originally Posted By: FalconCoach
An open in a dual is labelled a forfeit. Kid still has to appear and get his hand raised to get the team points. Therefore, I believe that can count on his record. There is a difference between 1st round Bye and Forfeit in a Dual.


Only would be different if the BYE was due to not having enough teams to fill the bracket. In a HS regional there are 8 teams in 5A and 6A so EVERY spot in the bracket should be filled? Agreed? No different than a dual forfeit.
Posted By: Beeson Re: Inflating Records - 01/16/15 10:24 AM
I think we are making this way too hard. Let's simplify, TWO things have to happen for a match to count towards or against a record. There has to be a winner and there has to be a loser. If there is no one to put a tally mark down for on the losers side there can be no tally on the winners side. Byes and Opens are ways of inflating records plain and simple. I don't care if you had to make weight or not. I don't care if someone was dodging you and didn't go out on the mat or not. There has to be two tally marks. 1 winner/1 loser, simple math.
Posted By: Cokeley Re: Inflating Records - 01/16/15 11:48 AM
Originally Posted By: Beeson
I think we are making this way too hard. Let's simplify, TWO things have to happen for a match to count towards or against a record. There has to be a winner and there has to be a loser. If there is no one to put a tally mark down for on the losers side there can be no tally on the winners side. Byes and Opens are ways of inflating records plain and simple. I don't care if you had to make weight or not. I don't care if someone was dodging you and didn't go out on the mat or not. There has to be two tally marks. 1 winner/1 loser, simple math.


That works fine for an individuals mat record. The hair splitting has to happen for team scores to MOTIVATE coaches to fill their line ups. The practice of leaving wrestlers at home to avoid giving up falls or more points at tournament needs to have a team scoring consequence. ESPECIALLY AT OUR HS REGIONAL EVENTS!
Posted By: Beeson Re: Inflating Records - 01/16/15 12:01 PM
Wasn't St. James a little light at Derby? whistle

It would be nice if every team would fill a full team, especially at Regionals. With that said, the Regional Ark City attends is usually pretty full.
Posted By: Mullin Re: Inflating Records - 01/16/15 12:23 PM
Beeson nails it and his rule stands up to many of our "laws" outside of wrestling: for each credit there has to be a debit; for every action there is a reaction; for every affect there is a cause; for every force there is an equal and opposite force; and most importantly the law of common sense - to get a win you have to beat somebody. I guess I don't know enough about tournaments and competition to understand how some coaches manipulate tournament points, but doesn't seem like we should use athletes records as a way to MOTIVATE coaches to do whats right.
Posted By: Cokeley Re: Inflating Records - 01/16/15 12:27 PM
SJA left guys at home that would have been on top of the podium. We over schedule to provide an option to take the ACT in February, be sick or injured, skip a weekend for academics or whatever the case may be. I think the Thunder still finished in the top half.
Posted By: Beeson Re: Inflating Records - 01/16/15 12:37 PM
Originally Posted By: Cokeley
SJA left guys at home that would have been on top of the podium. We over schedule to provide an option to take the ACT in February, be sick or injured, skip a weekend for academics or whatever the case may be. I think the Thunder still finished in the top half.


The point remains, by not showing up it took away opportunity for others to score points and bonus points. Whether or not some one could have benefitted from that opportunity will never be known, because the opportunity was not provided.

I understand over scheduling, Ark City does it as well. I do think it is harder for you to complain about open weights when you are guilty of open weights.
Posted By: Cokeley Re: Inflating Records - 01/16/15 12:54 PM
I don't agree. I am not complaining about open weights. The Thunder would not care if their opens resulted in giving up 2 advancement and 2 bonus for their opens on the front and 1 plus 2 on the back. We have a reason that we CANNOT bring guys. We aren't leaving guys home bc they would get pinned and we are worried about team points or regional seeding records.

This year at the JoCo Classic there were seven teams with 8 or fewer wrestlers. These are 6a schools with over 1,000 and sometimes more than 1,500 students. There is no excuse to not find 14 competitors.
Posted By: Teamroper Re: Inflating Records - 01/16/15 02:30 PM
Originally Posted By: Cokeley
I don't agree. I am not complaining about open weights. The Thunder would not care if their opens resulted in giving up 2 advancement and 2 bonus for their opens on the front and 1 plus 2 on the back. We have a reason that we CANNOT bring guys. We aren't leaving guys home bc they would get pinned and we are worried about team points or regional seeding records.

This year at the JoCo Classic there were seven teams with 8 or fewer wrestlers. These are 6a schools with over 1,000 and sometimes more than 1,500 students. There is no excuse to not find 14 competitors.



Will some of those teams may be young and it would be not very wise to send them to the wolves at that point in their wrestling career. I am not talking about dodging but fresh/soph with little to no experience.

What would a Bobcat, Newton, Derby tournament do to benefit that type of kid. Probably remind him that he started way to late.

On the other hand the same kid can go wrestle 3/4 matched at a JV tournament with kids close to his same experience and skill level.

It is called development, some schools and kids need it. Again this isn't dodging, this is being outclassed and out gunned.

Does everyone fit into that category I bet not, but I have seen the success of a few of these type of kids already this year.

Will you have to remember that SJA is a exception to most rules, there aren't many school with 2 to 3 deep quality kids that can go win varsity matches. Most are lucky to even feel the entire roster with "experienced" kids.
Posted By: Cokeley Re: Inflating Records - 01/17/15 03:49 AM
Originally Posted By: Teamroper
Originally Posted By: Cokeley
I don't agree. I am not complaining about open weights. The Thunder would not care if their opens resulted in giving up 2 advancement and 2 bonus for their opens on the front and 1 plus 2 on the back. We have a reason that we CANNOT bring guys. We aren't leaving guys home bc they would get pinned and we are worried about team points or regional seeding records.

This year at the JoCo Classic there were seven teams with 8 or fewer wrestlers. These are 6a schools with over 1,000 and sometimes more than 1,500 students. There is no excuse to not find 14 competitors.



Will some of those teams may be young and it would be not very wise to send them to the wolves at that point in their wrestling career. I am not talking about dodging but fresh/soph with little to no experience.

What would a Bobcat, Newton, Derby tournament do to benefit that type of kid. Probably remind him that he started way to late.

On the other hand the same kid can go wrestle 3/4 matched at a JV tournament with kids close to his same experience and skill level.

It is called development, some schools and kids need it. Again this isn't dodging, this is being outclassed and out gunned.

Does everyone fit into that category I bet not, but I have seen the success of a few of these type of kids already this year.

Will you have to remember that SJA is a exception to most rules, there aren't many school with 2 to 3 deep quality kids that can go win varsity matches. Most are lucky to even feel the entire roster with "experienced" kids.


First of all we are not 2 to 3 kids deep. Every year we have a handful of experienced wrestlers and we fill in with kids that have never wrestled before. Last year we had two or three weights that we had two quality wrestlers in but we developed them. We have 30 kids this year and only 8 experienced wrestlers.

Are you familiar with the Allen, TX HS team? Last year, because they won their third state football title in a row, had a handful of varsity wrestlers still playing football. So they filled their roster with first year wrestlers who had never wrestled a varsity match. Their first tournament, THE IRONMAN. The second tournament was the KC Stampede. Coach Best has one of the best programs in the country. I think you can be developed in many different ways. I personally don't think much development happens at the JV level however I do think staying on the mat 11 months a year does!!
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