Kansas Wrestling
Posted By: Dooley pray on the mat - 02/06/05 04:34 AM
should you be able to pray on the mat when you are putting on you leg band?
Posted By: Scarecrow_103 Re: pray on the mat - 02/06/05 04:36 AM
Ya, I think so, You do wut ever it does to get your mind ready, I myself jump around and slap my self and I get crap for it.
Posted By: GoldenDomer Re: pray on the mat - 02/06/05 05:41 AM
Absolutely. There is no logical argument as to why a wrestler should not be able to pray before a match or at any other point in time as he sees fit.
Posted By: Nigel Isom Re: pray on the mat - 02/06/05 10:28 AM
For the sake of the 1st Amendment to the Constitution, Dooley I really hope you are joking!!
Posted By: mike fairleigh Re: pray on the mat - 02/06/05 12:58 PM
HAVING SEEN WRESTLERS EXPRESS THEMSELVES IN MUCH MORE OBJECTIONABLE WAYS THAN A SHORT PRAYER TO THEMSELVES BEFORE COMPETITION, I SAY GO FOR IT. I APPRECIATE IT MUCH MORE THAN THROWING STUFF AROUND , OBSCENE HAND GESTURES, AND TRASH TALK. PROPS TO YOU, MR. DOOLEY, AND SAY A WORD OR TWO FOR ME.
Posted By: just say NO Re: pray on the mat - 02/06/05 03:41 PM
hey dooley...i thought u did a really nice job wrestling madden last night..u got beat by like 8 or nine but that is not what it looked like from the stands
Posted By: SCWRESTLINGFAN Re: pray on the mat - 02/06/05 04:53 PM
I also think that a wrestler should be able to do whatever it takes to get themselves ready for the match they are about to wrestle.
Posted By: Nigel Isom Re: pray on the mat - 02/06/05 07:34 PM
Unfortunatly prayers in themselves won't help you win a match, I doubt very much that winners of matches are those who pray the most. But if it provides you the motivation than by all means do what you will.
Posted By: NurseKs Re: pray on the mat - 02/06/05 07:35 PM
Dooley did a fine job against Madden. Ask the wrestlers what they think about praying on the mat. I have 4 and they all say "it is no big deal." Now the people in the stands might have a different opinion. I felt at one time it was fine until the leg band went on and then I felt it was time to wrestle. It's not about me. People need to realise prayer is not selfish. Anyone who wants to pray before a match at any time is welcome to do so in my books. It is not a "mind game" technique as I have heard it called in the stands by some.
Posted By: hayhouse Re: pray on the mat - 02/06/05 07:36 PM
i do it alot of time before my i check in to the table. go for it dooley
Posted By: Nigel Isom Re: pray on the mat - 02/06/05 07:50 PM
Its a PR nightmare waiting to happen, the day day when someone is told they can't pray before a match. I give them 3 or 4 seconds after they pick up their leg band.
Posted By: Mike Church Sr. Re: pray on the mat - 02/07/05 03:05 AM
All some wrestlers have is a prayer. I do beleive those with a strong faith will be rewarded for their short prayer befor a match. I admire it.
Posted By: Nigel Isom Re: pray on the mat - 02/07/05 03:52 AM
Well I really don't want to go any deeper into this topic at the risk of knocking other people's faith, but honestly it doesn't work like that. You don't get extra help in sporting events because you pray to a particualar diety. As I said before though those who believe in it strongly enough are provided motivation from the simple belief itself that maybe God will entertain their notion that day. It praying to your higher being makes you beleive you are going to win, and you do, that works out fine, but what happens when you lose? Does that mean that "Well maybe it wasn't in his plans for you to win?" Its silly conjecture, I see the pre match prayer as nothing more than a motivational warmup and that is the sole reason why I think it should be allowed. There are more important things in life to pray for than winning a wrestling match at (insert random tournament here), like health and family. I say keep on praying if thats what you believe can help you win.
Posted By: Aaron Sweazy Re: pray on the mat - 02/07/05 04:10 AM
When warming up, before you are to go out there that's when you should pray. Once on the mat it's wrestling time. I would watch the mat that I was supposed to next wrestle on at tournaments and would do a quick prayer before going out there to the mat.
Posted By: jess Re: pray on the mat - 02/07/05 04:20 AM
I give people more respect for praying. That takes courage, and lots of wrestlers get categorized as christain freaks if they pray. What's so wrong with them giving someone else the glory for their ability to wrestle? I think it's an awesome thing to see, and I wish there were more wrestlers that did it.
Posted By: Aaron Sweazy Re: pray on the mat - 02/07/05 04:28 AM
I don't think praying is a bad thing, but you have ample time before stepping on the mat to do it. Some people do get carried away, we aren't there to watch someone pray, slap their legs, or whatever for 10 seconds after they have already put on the band.

In my book it slows down the tournaments in the long run if you have 1000 matches in a tournament and everyone takes 10 seconds extra after reporting and putting on bands, it would take forever...do your thing before reporting, I can still appreciate you praying matside then running out to wrestle.
Posted By: Nigel Isom Re: pray on the mat - 02/07/05 04:50 AM
I agree with you Aaron.
Posted By: Computerized Shoes Re: pray on the mat - 02/07/05 04:55 AM
I usually pray before I go to bed. But when I step onto the mat I put my legband on and then proceed to bite my kneepad ... and it stinks! I really don't know why I do that?
Posted By: KCWrestlersMom Re: pray on the mat - 02/07/05 01:18 PM
Nigel, I hope you are mistaken in believing that people are praying to win. Prayers are not like lists to Santa. I like to believe that wrestlers who praying are asking that God be with them and let them wrestle to the best of their ability, not, "Please God, let me win this match." But of course, I could be wrong.
Posted By: fris kitzgerald Re: pray on the mat - 02/07/05 01:25 PM
I usually pray before a match. its a psych thing. i don't pray to "win" a match i ask him to protect me and my opponent in everything they do. i also ask for protection for friends and family. so it could be a lot more than just praying to win.
Posted By: Mike Furches Re: pray on the mat - 02/07/05 03:25 PM
My post on another thread regarding this subject:

quote:
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Originally posted by Bronco Wrestler:
I personally have nothing wrong with it, whatever gets you motivated, but according to KSHSAA rules a wrestling tournament is a school sponsored event and the separation of church of state law would apply

Alex
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Actually what the constitution says in the First Amendment is:



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Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
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Student led and initiated prayer, Bible Study, or whatever related to religious (any religion) expression has been upheld in federal courts and the Supreme Court for years. Perceptions like the one made here are actually misperceptions that even educators often have, although, and albeit mistaken. Sometimes they err on the side of caution but that can not be done in such a way that prevents the free exercise of the individual. Group led prayers, or religious activities (specifically by the state or government run organization) is what the Constitution speaks of. The key is student led. This is why you see students at football games often get together to pray after the game and sometimes even before the game. It is why you also see student led Bible studies and activities like FCA taking place at schools. Again, the key is being student led. A link with numerous resources follows: http://www.aclj.org/Issues/InDepth.aspx?ID=40

My son always prays before a match for safety of both wrestlers and that he would do his best. We once had a ref put his hands on my son right before a match, during the prayer, and tell him to get to the center and wrestle and that he should “take care of business before you get on the mat.” This whole process for him only takes about 30 seconds immediately after getting on the mat. He grabs his band, puts it on and says a quick prayer. This was one of the times the ref and I had a “little discussion” at the conclusion of the mat, actually after he cautioned me for saying “I can’t believe what I just saw to the other coach in the corner with me.” By the way it was one of the few times I actually saw where the ref was booed by the spectators at the match.

Now to this particular thread.

Since the post I have had some thoughts about when the prayer should take place. First understand, that I have never told my son to pray, it is something he started on his own and has been doing now for some time. I am thinking of telling him to pray before the band goes on. It is very possible that this not distract or take time from the mat if the wrestler hurries out to do it. Everyone here knows that there is always almost some time before the start of the match. All of that being said, I think there are some valid points, that once the band is on, then the person needs to be ready to wrestle so that is something I am thinking about. However, that decision should ultimately be up to the individual wrestler, and if they are in violation of any rules as determined by the official, they must be willing to accept the consequences of that violation. It would be interesting to know what rules might apply here and if they are even addressed.

I really don't think very many wrestlers who pray, prays to win. I honestly think that most prayers are just like the one mentioned by fris. I know that is the prayer of my son, to do his best and that no one would get hurt. These prayers can also be used as a time for thanks and request, for example, "Lord thank you that I have this opportunity to wrestle. Be with little guys like Tyler Graebner who would love to be here. I also ask that you would be with the table workers, coaches and officials to stay focused and do their job. Help me respect them and my opponenet. Keep us both safe and may we all do our best. Amen." A prayer like this takes less than 20 seconds and I believe is appropriate. By the way as to the time issue, this weekend I saw 2 kids pray before their match at a kids tourney, and at High School Duals, of which I have been to about 7 this year I have seen 1 kid pray. I just don't see what the issue is about the time of those doing it.

[img]http://pic15.picturetrail.com/VOL613/2977456/6058073/84429084.jpg?SSImageQuality=Full[/img]
Posted By: Jeff Houser Re: pray on the mat - 02/07/05 04:06 PM
Prayer is a motivation for a match. Not a free wn.
Posted By: Gibby Re: pray on the mat - 02/07/05 04:06 PM
I think where most people have a "problem" with prayer on the mat (and I don't mean problem as, "they shouldn't do that") falls in the lines of possible legitimacy. It's the perception that eats at those who don't agree.

First off, there's no laws being broken. It's perfectly allowed. There are some technical rules that apply and Nigel can give us the rule number, but wrestlers are to report to the table and directly to the mat. As a technicality, stopping for a moment of silence is technically a violation of wrestling protocol.

With that being said, no official at an rank, be it HS, kids, or Olympic has ever "dinged" a participant for such activity. Wouldn't be too smart, it would end his/her career as an official.

With that being said, each person worships their diety in a different manner. For myself, I chose to keep my personal relationship with God private because it's between God and me. Others are much more vocal and display their relationship with God outwardly.

The problem is that many skeptics don't see this as a true prayer, but a show. According to them, this display does nothing more than belittle the opponent because they didn't squat down and say a prayer or they will claim that the kid shouldn't do it because he's done something wrong (a problem child, been in trouble at school, has drank alcohol, broke the law, etc.)

Quite often I'll quiet them down by telling them, tactfully, that each of us have sinned at some point in our life and we have asked for forgiveness and hopefully God will do just that. If the kid is asking for forgiveness or whatever, so be it. He can and should do it whenever or wherever he wants.

I remember as a kid, my great grandfather never went to church on Sunday and when I would stay at his house over the summer, we would quite often be on the water fishing while church was going on. One day I asked him why he doesn't go to church and he told me, "boy you're in church right now. God made this fishing hole and every time I'm out here, I reflect on all that he has given us. You don't need to go to church for that."

Granted, there are many in the religious community that would adamantly say he's wrong, but in my relationship with God, he's right on various levels.

So who's to say that it's right/wrong. Legally speaking, those who choose to do so are in their legal rights. As for my personal opinion of the matter, God hasn't called upon me to tell them to quit it and I'll be darned if I'll be the one to say stop.
Posted By: Dingbat Re: pray on the mat - 02/07/05 04:35 PM
It's lame, but if you want to do it...whatever.
Posted By: coach neil Re: pray on the mat - 02/07/05 05:09 PM
Its not lame! I don’t call myself a church going person, but if someone wants to pray it is their right! I have to believe that those who are sincere about praying are only praying for their safety and the safety of the their opponent, and not about winning.
There is absolutely no rule in wrestling that prohibits a wrestler from praying before a match as an individual, and if their was, it would be challenged and changed very quickly.
Posted By: Dingbat Re: pray on the mat - 02/07/05 05:31 PM
I never said a person shouldn't be able to do it. Of course they have the right to do it. However, this right does not make it any less lame.
Posted By: coach neil Re: pray on the mat - 02/07/05 05:58 PM
Lack of consideration, Lack of class, Insulting someone’s belief system, Immaturity.
All things I consider to be even more lame!
Posted By: Dingbat Re: pray on the mat - 02/07/05 06:12 PM
Coach Neil--
I think you are misunderstanding me here. I am not insulting anyone's belief system. If you want to pray when warming up before a wrestling match--hey--pray 'till you're blue in the face. That's cool. But when you wait for the moment when you are in the spotlight to call attention to yourself via praying, that, my friend, is lame. Praying after putting on your leg band is similar to the receiver who kneels down to thank God for helping him score a touchdown or the pitcher who signs a cross to thank Jesus for the power to strike someone out. You never see someone bend over and pray after they get stuck. You know why? Because no one wants the spotlight on themselves in that situation, and all praying on stage does is draw attention to yourself. In my opinion, that's lame.
Posted By: Nigel Isom Re: pray on the mat - 02/07/05 09:43 PM
No wrestlersmom,

I hope the impression from my posts didn't give you the idea that praying before a match was praying to win. As I mentioned before I think of the praying as a motivational technique. Now if a wrestler really is thinking in their head "Please Lord let me win this match" Then I do believe their efforts are misguided. As far as rules interpretations go, if a wrestler wants to kneel down after they place their leg back on for 2-4 seconds I generally don't have a problem with that, but really Im of the opinion that they should get that stuff done right before the come on to the mat to check in, im fairly sure their higher power of choice will be listenening then as well.
Posted By: KCWrestlersMom Re: pray on the mat - 02/07/05 09:48 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by Nigel Isom:
There are more important things in life to pray for than winning a wrestling match at (insert random tournament here), like health and family.
That was my rationale in assuming you believed that's what wrestlers were praying for, but you seem to have cleared it up.
Posted By: brentvoth Re: pray on the mat - 02/07/05 10:17 PM
a lot of wrestlers jog a few steps from the center of the mat to put there leg band on, slap there thighs, jump up and down, or whatever before the start of the match. other wrestlers kneel and close there eyes, most are praying but i think also some take a couple seconds just to try to clear there mind for the match. there are all kinds of routines which take 10 seconds before a match, if prayer is a problem then so is everything else. everyone should be able to do there own thing, a 10 second prayer doesnt hurt anyone.
Posted By: Michael Malay Re: pray on the mat - 02/07/05 10:57 PM
i say the lords prayer before every match in a corner of the gym and then i pray.
Posted By: Gibby Re: pray on the mat - 02/07/05 11:10 PM
Technically, slapping your legs, praying, clearing your head, running to the outer edge to put your leg band on, and other routines are against the rules.

You are to show up to the center prepared. Everything is considered delaying the match and Nigel can post the correct rule number.

Even though it's a technicality, most officials opt to not inforce the infraction because it eats such little time.
Posted By: Jeff Houser Re: pray on the mat - 02/09/05 03:34 PM
I don't see why prayer is such a touchy subject. Freedom of speech. I don't think people should be criticized for there public showing of respect toward God, Budda, Allah or any other thing.
Posted By: RJW Re: pray on the mat - 02/09/05 05:46 PM
I tell my guys it is ok to pray on the mat, but it is not ok to be prey on the mat!!
Posted By: NurseKs Re: pray on the mat - 02/09/05 06:08 PM
If rules are being broken then why aren't they being enforced? I have no problem with praying. It is when it is going on. Once the leg band goes on it is time to wrestle. Take care of any business before that. No matter why someone has to wait after the leg band goes on..it does draw attention and those that are praying are taking advantage of "ref's know it happens but won't enforce it because it is praying" etc. Anyone who does anything after the leg band goes on is drawing attention to themselves. It is simple..take care of business and when the leg band goes on take care of business. One of these days a ref WILL enforce the rule and what do you have to fall back on? I call it disrespect for religion knowingly doing something that might cause confrontation and harm and breaking rules all for the sake of personal beliefs. All that do it have gotten away with it for the simple reason no one is going to want to deal with all the darn paperwork. I believe in prayer...my boys tell me it is no big deal when someone wants to pray BUT there are rules and if this is not enforced then the only people who have a right to say anything are those who want to make sure other rituals don't play into post leg band. What is to stop someone who devil worships from having someone be mat-side with a candle he must blow out post leg band before every match? It is simple..take care of business before you put your leg band on. No one is trying to stop prayer and no one wants to have to deal with what may be started if it isn't enforced.
Posted By: Dingbat Re: pray on the mat - 02/09/05 09:38 PM
Here, here, NurseKS. By the way...are you one of those sexy nurses?
Posted By: NurseKs Re: pray on the mat - 02/09/05 11:23 PM
As I stomp my foot and raise my fist and try to be offended alas I remember this is just the net and so I calmly answer..no.
Posted By: NWKansasmom Re: pray on the mat - 02/10/05 12:48 AM
This was in one of the readings at the Ash Wednesday services today:
From the Gospel of Matthew
"When you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, who love to stand and pray in the synagogues and on the street corners so that others may see them. Amen, I say to you, they have received their reward. But when you pray, go to your inner room, close the door, and pray to your father in secret. And your father who sees in secret will repay you."
Posted By: CrusaderFan Re: pray on the mat - 02/10/05 02:52 AM
Public prayer at Ash Wed. Service???? Ash Wednesday service takes place in a church of worship...therefore eliminating the "public" part. It is accepted and encouraged to show signs of worship. Not the same as a gym on game day! It should be up to the wrestler to risk the dink by the official if he wants to. Prayer at any time is a good thing if it is truly prayer.
Posted By: bubowski Re: pray on the mat - 02/10/05 04:21 AM
Once you step on the mat it is time to wrestle. If you want to pray thats fine but do it before stepping on the mat. I just don't understand why some wrestlers insist on praying on the mat, pray on your own time.
Posted By: LancerM Re: pray on the mat - 02/10/05 05:28 AM
And I don't see why anyone cares because it's not hurting anyone.
Posted By: LHS_Wrassler Re: pray on the mat - 02/11/05 06:30 PM
Me personally... After I check in, I jog onto the mat, shake the referee's hand, grap the band and go to the edge of the mat. While putting on the band, I usually say a short prayer, not to win, but to keep everyone safe, on and off the mat. I have NEVER prayed to win. Personally I dont think it can help you win, but thats not why you should pray anyway. Not to offend anyone but my "prayer" doesnt even last 10 sec. I take a deep breath and go to the line, usually shake the ref's hand again. But praying is just a short time to relax and get your thoughts together, its not a stalling technique.
Posted By: Shane Koranda Re: pray on the mat - 02/11/05 08:22 PM
Just to weigh in on the "official may/might/could/should hit you for a point..."

The only thing the ref can hit you for is stalling and MAYBE unsportsmanlike, but I don't know of any refs out there that'll hit a kid for either.

I have in the past said, "OK, let's go." But I've never been presented with a 30 second worship service off to the side, so I really don't think this is an issue. Nothing in the rules says that the wrestler has to go directly from the table, to the line, put on their band and not go anywhere or do anything. I gues it comes down to MY favorite line as an official: It's the official's JUDGEMENT as to what would be legal/illegal.

But if you think I'm taking on the Constitution by hitting a kid for a 10 second prayer...
Posted By: TCarmona Re: pray on the mat - 02/11/05 09:12 PM
I never did the leg band prayer, but it never offened me. I think the people that are that bothered by it are the people who have nothing better to do. I think if it doesn't offend their oppent or the ref it should be okay. As far as the nurse goes.....you sound like that lady in this article

http://www.denverpost.com/Stories/0,1413,36~53~2691638,00.html

get a life
Posted By: NurseKs Re: pray on the mat - 02/12/05 12:07 AM
Just an interesting subject and lots of opinions. All to be taken with a grain of salt and those we don't agree with let us know. Not sure how the cookie thing figures in but how did you know I like cookies..yummy.
Posted By: NurseKs Re: pray on the mat - 02/12/05 12:08 AM
And by the way Dooley started it :rolleyes:
Posted By: NurseKs Re: pray on the mat - 02/12/05 01:47 AM
Sometimes in life we get a chance to rethink and change our point of view. Something as simple as a quick prayer on the mat isn't a big deal at all..in fact it is welcome. Great thing about life is we get a chance to change. Many prayers go out to Haysville, the community and those affected by such a great loss.
Posted By: Cody Schields Re: pray on the mat - 02/12/05 02:09 AM
Why is this even an issue? Let the wrestlers do what they want.
Posted By: D. Fairleigh Re: pray on the mat - 02/12/05 09:11 PM
Praying before a match is a fine thing to do. However in many cases it is just a show, something they do to look cool. Several times in football games the same people who would be talking trash and cussing you out before the play would be praying after they scored or made a tackle. several times in wrestling the same kids who are lookin for stuff to steal between matches are praying when they put there leg bands on. Were everyone can see them. It says somewere in Mathew i beleave that when you pray in front of men you have receaved your reward in full. But the prayers that are said in secret are heard by the Father and he rewards them. or something to that effect. thats why i pray in the showers before a match or game.
Posted By: TCarmona Re: pray on the mat - 02/14/05 03:30 PM
The cookie thing came from the idea that you can sue or complain about anything these days. I put that in there cause it is the same point that these small things don't hurt anyone so why worry about it.
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