Kansas Wrestling
Posted By: havid deidrick best heavyweight in state history - 03/06/02 02:08 PM
who is the best heavyweight in kansas history? i don't know of very many, so i would say UBben, but i'm sure there are others that are better
Posted By: bobphillips Re: best heavyweight in state history - 03/06/02 02:29 PM
He is a good wrestler. But for the old guys out there will remember the Maddens from Effingham. I don't remember which one was the best I just rember they were all very good.
Posted By: buc Re: best heavyweight in state history - 03/06/02 02:45 PM
In random order

1 Steve Nave Coffeyville
2 Les Miller Ark City
3 Jeff Boyle Norton
Posted By: Callahan Re: best heavyweight in state history - 03/06/02 02:56 PM
Pound for pound, I would have to go with Witt Hinton from Baldwin. He is quite a bit smaller than most heavy weights, but he over powered them with his strength.
Posted By: Lyle Geyer Re: best heavyweight in state history - 03/06/02 04:58 PM
My vote has to go to Jeff Boyle from Norton, he totally dominated his division for three years, especially his senior year which I believe he pinned everyone. Plus he has several national championships in freestyle and greco. Just because he didn't pursue wrestling in college doesn't mean he wasn't the best heavyweigt.
Posted By: ssss Re: best heavyweight in state history - 03/06/02 05:14 PM
ubben
Posted By: someone Re: best heavyweight in state history - 03/06/02 05:58 PM
UBBEN
Posted By: Les Brown Re: best heavyweight in state history - 03/06/02 06:29 PM
Jeff Boyle won a state title at 189 as a soph, at 215 as a junior and at 275 as a senior. He had an incredible mix of speed and technique and his strength was without equal. He won his match in the Dapper Dan Classic to earn the title as the nation's best high school heavyweight in 1997. Many college coaches were projecting him to make an immediate impact at the NCAA Div I level had he chosen to wrestle in college.

He made an absolute mockery of his weight class as a senior and was close to untouchable at 215 as a junior.

Ubben is a great wrestler who has a bright collegiate career ahead of him and I intend him no disrespect, but I would have to go with Boyle in a head-to-head match-up.
Posted By: Bill Johnson Re: best heavyweight in state history - 03/06/02 06:59 PM
Jeff Boyle is one of the very best Hwts. to come out of Kansas. He was Selected by every wrestling magazine as the Nations best Hwt. in 1997. He is the only Hwt in Ks history to wrestling in the Dapper Dan Classic (Dual meet between a USA All-Star Team vs. Penn. Team). Jeff dominated his opponents at the national level more than any hwt I have ever seen. He did not wrestle like your normal Hwt.

A few other good heavys to come out of Ks. are in no order.
Steve Nave-Coffeyville
Les Miller-Ark City
Jerry Corner-Wichita West
Mitch Schlepp-St. Francis
Larry Grieve-Osborne (I know that he was selected as an All-American by AWN, other might have been also, but I can't remember).
Posted By: Mike Juby Re: best heavyweight in state history - 03/06/02 08:48 PM
I heard that Boyle not only dominated his opponents, but was pretty hard on his high school coach, as well.
Posted By: Nugget_185 Re: best heavyweight in state history - 03/06/02 10:31 PM
Ubben
Posted By: boor Re: best heavyweight in state history - 03/06/02 11:24 PM
most definately-UBBEN
Posted By: Roy G Biv Re: best heavyweight in state history - 03/07/02 04:49 AM
Coach Johnson,
Correct me if I am wrong, but Boyle only placed 2nd at Juniro National Grecco. Not even a freestlye placer. Beltran WON grecco at juniors, and the year before got 5th in Freestlye. How can you say you have never seen a more dominant heavyweight than boyle? Did you not witness first hand Steve Mocco winning his 4th Junior title and never allowing a point to be scored in those 4 years. That sounds more dominating than Mr. Boyle
Posted By: nhsgrad215 Re: best heavyweight in state history - 03/07/02 04:50 AM
beltran was a good one... but I think ubben is better, ryan fraizer is another good one who knows what he would have done if he would have wrestled 4 years.
Posted By: holla Re: best heavyweight in state history - 03/07/02 08:46 AM
Nathan Baker from Parsons was a formidable heavyweight his senior and junior years. Undefeated his senior year and 3rd his junior year. He was even a late starter to wrestling. He made short work of Witt Hinton in the semifinals at state.
Posted By: kahuna Re: best heavyweight in state history - 03/07/02 04:34 PM
If it comes down to who hails from Kansas that went on to compete & perform at the HIGHEST LEVEL in the HEAVYWEIGHT division then we have to recognize the accomplishments of the young man & friend of mine that took me out as the winningest wrestler at HIAWATHA High School. I am talking about JEREMY LAY. Jeremy placed 4th in HS at heavyweight his Sophomore year wrestling up from about 187 lbs... as our 185 lb senior Kris Mengarelli placed 2nd in State. Jeremy could have actually chosen to compete at that weight but,.. as a team player he chose to move up. The following 2 years he placed 1ST & 2ND in STATE at 189 lbs. As is the case with many wrestlers it was when he went to College at MIZZOU that he grew into a man. I was a couple years older & could go toe to toe with him in High School & remember thinking how bad we was when our bench was a little over 300 but when I gave him a try a couple years later he was a MAN and an ANIMAL that liked to rip my head off & was benching closer to 500. Jeremy also happens to be Kansas highest placing Heavyweight HIGH SCHOOL ALL-AMERICAN placing 2ND in 1990. Jeremy also had the privilege of wrestling recent Olympic hero RULON GARDNER while Rulon competed for the Huskers of Nebraska. Jeremy went on to accomplish great heights because of his desire & work ethic,.. eventually becoming the Big 8 Heavyweight Champion. Lets not forget that includes..Oklahoma, OSU, Nebraska & Iowa State! He concluded his career as an NCAA DIVISION *1* ALL-AMERICAN placing 5TH and was chosen as a co-recipient of the Kansas Wrestling Coaches Associations --- COLLEGE WRESTLER OF THE YEAR from Kansas. If you can't take my word then ask Rulon Gardner or one of.. if not the best ever Kansas wrestler ERIC AKIN what they think of my ol' buddy Jeremy Lay. ....### Just to think... I used to call him JV Lay cause he only wrestled a portion of the year at Varsity his Freshman year going 14-1 and beating many State Qualifiers & ..get this...make him drop & give me push-ups in the hallway at school back in the day to make him tough, lol ! ### I can say this....if there is one better out there to speak of then he is going to have to prove it at the next level ..as JEREMY LAY has done!!! :p
Posted By: 321a Wrestler Re: best heavyweight in state history - 03/07/02 05:04 PM
Here is my top 5

1. Jeff Boyle
2. Beltran
3 Jay Eillers
4. Andrew Ubben
5 Mich Slept
Posted By: ssss Re: best heavyweight in state history - 03/07/02 06:02 PM
1. ubben
2. boyle
3. beltran
4. frazier
Posted By: Nigel Isom Re: best heavyweight in state history - 03/07/02 06:04 PM
I personally would have gone with Jeff Boyle, he was an absolute animal in everything he did. Im sorry but I have seen and wrestled with Jerimiah Beltran and he would not have lasted a period with Boyle. Ubben was good also but not the calibre of Boyle
Posted By: Aaron Sweazy Re: best heavyweight in state history - 03/07/02 06:58 PM
He might not have been the best, but entertaining none the less...John Paul Shepherd.
Posted By: Harry LaMar Re: best heavyweight in state history - 03/07/02 07:08 PM
Boyle was awesome fellas! He would have been an Olympic caliber wrestler if he had not chosen football. Jerry Coroner went on to all-American several times in D2 as did Keith Blaske from Onaga.
Boyle has my vote for the best Kansas wrestler any wieght that I have witnessed in 20 years of coaching!!
Posted By: kahuna Re: best heavyweight in state history - 03/07/02 07:28 PM
Ifs, Buts, Candies & Nuts !! JEREMY LAY proved it as an NCAA DIVISION *1* ALL-AMERICAN..... on THE MAT ! Lets give him his due folks !!
Posted By: klint deere Re: best heavyweight in state history - 03/07/02 08:47 PM
Gotta go with Harry, No heavy dominated like Boyle, what fun was he to watch, growing up in Sabetha in the 80s I happened to see the Maddens (ACCHS) & Jon Beal, The Hollister boys, Jerry Quick from Chapparal. I also saw a lot of Beltran in recent years as a coach and offical, but none could hold a candle to Boyle. Lay was an awesome kid from a great family but no where near the dominant force. Good Topic.
Posted By: jmadden Re: best heavyweight in state history - 03/08/02 12:39 AM
Jeremy Lay was good but not exceptional as a high school wrestler. He did go on to do exceptionally well in college but the question was not who was the best college heavyweight it is about high school. Jeremy was a teriffic kid who I think very highly of but he came to his prime after high school.
Posted By: jmadden Re: best heavyweight in state history - 03/08/02 12:42 AM
Boyle was the most dominating, if not the best heavyweight I saw. One thing that tickles me though Kyle Deere is just how you saw people wrestle while growing up in Sabetha in the 80's that graduated in the 60's and early 70's. Ralph Madden who was an exceptional Hvy and the first state champion in NE Ks outside of Topeka wrestled in the 60s and in 1970. How old were you Klint. Henry who was the youngest and won grand state in 76 was 185. What grade were you in Klint 4th grade??
Posted By: theconnector Re: best heavyweight in state history - 03/08/02 01:28 AM
Boyle was awesome and finished his senior year undefeated and 28 pins and 28 takedowns. 28-0
Posted By: klint deere Re: best heavyweight in state history - 03/08/02 04:09 PM
Sorry fanatic---did not mean to say i saw em, but definitely grew up hearing all about em---thanks for the fact check,,,send me an email sometime and lets catch up,,,,,
Ubben and Lay were both very dominant. But I think Boyle was better. And as for saying that Lay is better, because he was better in college. Boyle chose to play football at Wyoming instead of wrestle, and he was a monster. He was one of the best nose guards in Div. I when he played. He would prolly be in the NFL if he didnt have really bad knee trouble.
Last year, one of my friends who currently plays football for Wyoming told me that Boyle bench pressed 225 pounds 45 times in a row. That's impressive. I think he would have went on to do great things in wrestling had he chosen to go out.
Posted By: Westfahl Re: best heavyweight in state history - 03/09/02 03:26 AM
The two best heavyweights I saw were Lon Austin of Kinsley and Danny Lankis of Attwood. They wrestled each other in the state finals in 1965 Austin winning 2-1. They went to K-State and played right beside each other at linebacker for three years and were co-captains their senior years. Great athletes and tremendous wrestlers.
Posted By: ksboy Re: best heavyweight in state history - 03/11/02 12:44 AM
Boyle for sure. He was a 3x state champ, #1 ranked heavyweight wrestler in the nation for all of 1997, and was a 1st team All-American on every wrestling magazines list that year too. And actually he did go on to play in the NFL and is still playing today. He plays for the Cincinnati Bengals.
Posted By: Little M Re: best heavyweight in state history - 03/11/02 01:14 AM
ubben
Posted By: NOTDawson 54 Re: best heavyweight in state history - 04/12/02 06:37 PM
Going 28-0 with 28 pins and 28 takedowns is pretty impressive. He did not humiliate people by taking them down 20 times like he could of. He was a good guy and may still make it in pro football.
Posted By: J.D. Re: best heavyweight in state history - 04/12/02 10:42 PM
In the mid 80's Chanute could have boasted
that they had all of the best. HWT state
champion 4 years in a row 4 different
wrestlers!!!!

1985- Dave Gossett
1986- Sonny Manley
1987- Dan Smedra
1988- Todd Brandon
Rumored that some of these guys claimed
as juniors that the only wrestler in
Kansas that could beat them wrestled on their
team!

P.S. Manley won it at 185 in '85, went on to
wrestle at Nebraska. I beleive was All-American?
And legend has it that while practicing for the
Shrine Bowl, was working out with 315 on the bench. May or May not be the best of all time, but
deserves mention. As did the awesome feat of Chanute's dominance in the Heavyweight division!!!
Posted By: gwalz Re: best heavyweight in state history - 04/23/02 12:47 AM
With all due respect, wrestling has changes a lot from the 60's and even the 80's for that matter and Jeff Boyle would kill anybody that has ever wrestled Hwt. including Andrew Ubben. Boyle was a flat out animal. Mitchel Schlepp was a good one too, but Boyle would kill him.
Posted By: Westfahl Re: best heavyweight in state history - 04/23/02 12:19 PM
I get a large charge out of people who say that wrestling has changed so much since the 60' 70's or 80's. Wrestling is a 2000 year old sport. Do you really think that it suddenly evolved in the last thirty. I am not of the opinion that the current rules configuration (which is the only thing that has changed one iota) has made wrestling better or worse it is just different. I know it is romantic to say that the wrestlers of your era would have whomped wrestlers of any other era but it just isnt really a factual statement. This state has produced some very very good heavyweights over the years. It would be very difficult to really say which ones would have been dominant but completely foolish to say that any are better simply because of the time that they happened to take the mat. I doubt that the human animal has evolved greatly in the heartbeat of twenty or thirty years. Lots of people would tell you they are softer now than they were then. They would probably be just as wrong.
Posted By: J.D. Re: best heavyweight in state history - 04/24/02 09:27 PM
Good call, Westfahl, getting on here and
stating facts, is OK, and so is stating
an opinion based on facts. Fact of the
matter is that wrestling has not changed
that much in the last 20 years. So to say
that someone would beat someone else just
because he wrestled in the last decade,
is wrong. Most wrestlers today are being
coached by a wrestler who wrestled 10,15,
20,30? years ago. But it is still fun to
say my guy would have killed your guy IF
they would have wrestled. Maybe we should
start a fantasy league, they have them in
every other sport!
Posted By: Westfahl Re: best heavyweight in state history - 04/25/02 02:52 AM
Fantasy wrestling what a good idea ..... can I have Sanderson?
Posted By: LicketySplit65 Re: best heavyweight in state history - 04/25/02 06:06 PM
no
Posted By: Lanista Re: best heavyweight in state history - 05/02/02 05:19 PM
The idea that wrestling hasn't changed in the last 20-30 years at the high school level is up for debate. Weight training? Year round conditioning and training? Performance based nutrition? Not to mention the strong influence of collegiate and international techniques. Moves that come out of college or international get to the high schools so much quicker these days when you have guys like Eric Akin in the community. ALL sports change and evolve. Most old tried and true concepts will always work, but would you have seen a 4x state champ freestyle tilting to countless tech falls opponents in 1972? Used to be 30 years ago that the USA was not a major factor on the international level. Times have changed and wrestling has changed.
Posted By: Westfahl Re: best heavyweight in state history - 05/02/02 05:31 PM
Thirty years ago Wayne Wells, Dan Gable, and Sanders were Olympic Champions as were Ben and John Peterson, and Loyd Keaser. I think sometimes we give ourselves way too much credit when we decide that the training of today is so much better than the training of a while back. Back in the sixties Pudge Wilson had his entire St. Francis team buck bales all summer long to get strong. Some of those kids and many others in the state were by far equal to any strength oriented kids in this state today. I wrestled then I coached now, and I tell you from my perspective the sport has not changed one way or the other to any decernable degree. I don't think kids work as hard today even though they have the opportunity to do so, I know there re the priveleged few who have money and can afford to travel all over the country to learn their craft but the bulk of wrestling in this country is not made up of those kids. Eastern Kansas didnt have guys like Aken in their communities then but in Western Kansas almost every school had many men in their communities who were very very talented collegiate wresltlers in their day. I just don't think 20 or 30 years is as long as people think it is in the evolution of a sport as old as this one is. It does make for a nice debate doesnt it.
Posted By: Westfahl Re: best heavyweight in state history - 05/02/02 05:42 PM
And on further review, yeah there were a ton of kids "tilting" people and winning four time state championships, ie: Doug Duell, Roy Oeser, Lyle Neville, and there are few teams as strong as the old Liberal teams and no one as strong as J.D. Armstrong was then. J.D. might have been the strongest critter in the history of wrestling in this state pound for pound. My brother pinned 47 in a row and six straight in two state championships, heck you can find guys doing spectacular things in every single era of kansas wrestling. Can anyone tell me what move is done today that was not done by someone 25 years ago? I am just curious.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: best heavyweight in state history - 05/03/02 03:31 AM
I do not know how anyone can argue that Jeff Boyle is not the best Hwt in history. For crying out loud his senior he pinned his opponent in the state finals in something like 27 seconds. (his opponent was Cody Parks who wrestled Hwt for Fort Hays and had a descent career) I would say that it is pretty much a dead give away. He was a muscle bound animal and no one could of even came close to beating him,(no not even Andrew Ubben. Someone was saying just the other day that he was benching more than anyone on the Bengals Pro Football Team. Way to go Boyle you are truly the best there ever was.
Posted By: Westfahl Re: best heavyweight in state history - 05/03/02 04:28 AM
So you think pinning a guy that wrestled for fort hays state is a big deal huh. Or maybe playing for the Bengals makes it a sure thing. There have been a lot of heavyweights that have played pro football, Lon Austin, Danny Lankis, the kid from Ark City who played fourteen years and in two super bowls and never won the state but took second to the same kid from Coffeyville each time. Austin anchored the national record 880 yard relay team and weight 240 pounds and he benched about 480. J.D. Armstrong of Liberal benched over 500 pounds at Fort Hays and that must surely qualify him as the greatest wrestler in history. Face it there have been a lot of good ones and Boyle is just the latest of them.
Posted By: bbd Re: best heavyweight in state history - 05/03/02 10:58 AM
Westfahl, you're right in saying that Boyle is the latest great heavyweight in Kansas but anybody that really knows wrestling knows that he is the best in states history, no questions, no arguments. As for Les Miller from Ark City, he did win a state title in 1983, and throughout his career in the NFL, when he was with the San Diego Chargers was the only time his team made it to the Super Bowl, and Les was injured at the time and didn't get to suit up. Les had a great career with the Saints, Chargers, and Panthers and it is great to see someone from Kansas do well at the next level, but on the mat he doesn't compare with Boyle.
Posted By: Les Brown Re: best heavyweight in state history - 05/03/02 12:22 PM
I have to agree here. Jeff Boyle was absolutely incredible. A tremendous balance of speed, strength and technique. People who had to suit up against him indicated his grip was like being caught in a bench vise. He was reportedly benching well over 500 while at Wyoming. He wrestled more like a 155 pounder than 275 pounder. Always on the offensive. If he got in on a single leg you had two options, give him a takedown or have your leg ripped off - because he was not going to let go. Escaping from the bottom position was pretty much impossible. And trying to break his pinning combination, well 28 matches, 28 takedowns, 28 falls tells you all you need to know.

He was listed as the top recruit in the nation after his senior year by every major wrestling publication. He did not wrestle in HS Senior Nationals because the Dapper Dan extended him an invitation - and he became one of the few Kansans ever to win a match in that prestigous event.

College coaches were speculating that National Champion Stephen Neal of Cal-State Bakersfield was the only NCAA DI heavyweight that could beat him. The hype around Jeff Boyle was every bit as big as that experienced by Steven Mocco last year or Tommy Rowlands a couple of years ago.

Coach Westphal, with all due respect, had you seen him you would have known he was the real deal. Most of the coaches who did see him and had to wrestle against him sure felt he was that good - and keep in mind that some of these coaches (Gabel, Baker, Samuelson, Lippelman, ......) have been around the NWKL as wrestlers, coaches and fans for the past 30 - 40 years.

In my opinion, Jeff Boyle was without a doubt the best heavyweight in the state's illustrious history and I would also have to give him the nod as one of the state's best ever - at any weight class. He was that good.
Posted By: Bernie Re: best heavyweight in state history - 05/03/02 01:20 PM
Best wrestler in any weight class ever!!!! You have to be kidding. Don't get carried away here boys I saw the kid you are talking about many times and I saw most of the ones Westfahl is talking about too. He was a great heavyweight no doubt but so were those other guys that I doubt you guys are old enough to have seen. You can say it with conviction all you want but I think you are a little over the top with that best ever tag.
Posted By: Les Brown Re: best heavyweight in state history - 05/03/02 03:17 PM
The actual quote was "one of the best ever - at any weight class" which I still feel is accurate.

And yep - I've only been actively engaged in following the Kansas high school ranks since I was 12 - which is 20 years, but have studied the archives as much as anyone. When I poll people who have been invloved in the sport for the past 40+ years and they echo my beliefs, I guess I take comfort in the authenticity of my convictions.
Posted By: Bernie Re: best heavyweight in state history - 05/03/02 03:22 PM
Les;
Well not to date myself but I wrestled in 1955 so I guess I am one of those 47 year guys. I missed that poll. Hey you are certainly entitled to your opinion I'd be the first to admit that, but I hope you allow for the idea that other people might have opinions that differ from yours and might be based on just as many "facts" as yours. I just get think it is interesting that people assume that when God made muscles and talent in one kid that he automatically didn't make them in anyone else. Maybe your right, or maybe.....
Posted By: Les Brown Re: best heavyweight in state history - 05/05/02 12:16 AM
Hey - no hard feelings here. I have a lot of respect for Dan Lankas as an athlete, coach, outdoorsman and human.

Its just that the only scouting report I ever heard on him was that he was a tremendous athlete - as evidenced by All-American linebacker honors @ K-State and a school record in the shot put that lasted into the late 1990's - and that he possessed incredible strength. But, given that he only wrestled the last couple years of high school, he was awful green on the mat. He reportedly had good double leg and a great tight waist, but struggled if that did not work.

And, lets face it, if Lon Austin did not have the skills necessary to counter a double leg or break a tight waist, then maybe he should not be so highly touted here.

Give me Boyle and I'd spot you points in a hypothetical match-up with either of them. But, as Bernie so eloquently stated, that is just my opinion.
Posted By: Westfahl Re: best heavyweight in state history - 05/07/02 01:57 AM
Lon Austin beat Dan Lankis for the state championship and he had a lot of skills he had the best grandby roll I have ever seen and was the fastest heavyweight I have seen. I have actually seen all of these guys wrestle that we are talking about here, i don't have to talk to anyone else about them.
Posted By: Westfahl Re: best heavyweight in state history - 05/07/02 02:06 AM
I didnt mean for that to sound caustic and I know i spelled lankas wrong *laugh*. Heck there have been a lot of great heavys. The kid from Coffeyville, Nave was a great one, Hemmerling from Hutchinson at the same time as Austin and Lankas, several really good ones from Harmon that were better than the very good one they had this year, McClendon and Curtis. I wouldnt go spottin to many points to any of those guys.
Posted By: nyjetsrule Re: best heavyweight in state history - 02/18/07 01:34 AM
Jeff Boyle hands down. Who pins there way thur an entire season. Only one person even made to the second period against him his senior year
Posted By: Scarecrow_103 Re: best heavyweight in state history - 02/18/07 01:40 AM
Caleb Payne, Adam Venegas.
Posted By: coach neil Re: best heavyweight in state history - 02/18/07 03:51 AM
All I can say is that in 10 or 12 more years you might be average Westfahl.
Posted By: wrestlingfan65 Re: best heavyweight in state history - 02/18/07 04:29 PM
I have to Agree its Boyle, I saw Boyle wrestle growing up in NW Kansas and he Destroyed everyone, i dont think he had anyone make it to the second period on him his senior year, he just shot in, picked the kid up, returned him real nice and soft like to the mat and pinned him. I wrestled against andrew Uben and he was Really really good and beat the living hell out of me but he had several matches go the whole length of the match his senior year and won one match by a score of 5-2, not saying thats at sin but that just didnt happen with Boyle, also Boyle beat the kid from Penn. like 9-3 and everyone thought he was unbeatable and Boyle also finished the season #1 in the nation and Uben ended up taking 7th i think which is unbelivably good, but im just saying between the two you have to Pick Boyle. as for all the other heavy weights i really never saw them wrestle so i dont know, im just stating my opinion off of what i have seen.
Posted By: Smallville_07 Re: best heavyweight in state history - 02/18/07 07:58 PM
I would agree Boyle hands down...He was a very nice guy off the mat and the football field.
Posted By: tksnkc Re: best heavyweight in state history - 02/18/07 08:02 PM
There are some very creditable posters on here and know what they are talking about in regards to Boyle. Anyone who disagrees with this opinion, one either were not following wresting at that time, or can not honestly say they know much about Kansas wrestling. I would defintiely compare Neal to him before even Mocco. Mocco is a stud but as an overall athelete Boyle was well ahead of him as well. That young man in his senior campaign was the best this state had to offer, had offered, and to date, offered in any wieght class. Others have gone on to prove their abilities as they grew but comparing only high school time period, Mr Boyle wins out.
Posted By: king kober Re: best heavyweight in state history - 02/18/07 08:39 PM
zlatnik might be mentioned someday because he can't be stopped
can't be stopped or hasn't been stopped? The kansas class of HWT's is far down compared to other weights.
Posted By: klint deere Re: best heavyweight in state history - 02/18/07 10:52 PM
Boyle without a doubt, pure athleticism defined. Would have liked to see him wrestle after high school.
Posted By: nyjetsrule Re: best heavyweight in state history - 02/19/07 02:40 AM
i think he could of made the NFL if he wouldn't have suffered serious knee injuries. I watched a game on espn2 and they had to double team him every play
i don't know if Zlatnik is "unstoppable", joe payne lost to him 3-2 earlier this year. Heavyweights are not at the level like they used to be in my opinion. He is an extremely good athlete though.
Posted By: DOUG MOORE Re: best heavyweight in state history - 02/19/07 01:20 PM
Westphal, do you really know what caustic means? Also, you forgot to capitalize I. Seriously, I too have seen almost all these BIG men wrestle. I think the one common denominator is the fact that they were all great athletes. As to who was better, let's face it wrestling has changed tremendously in the last 40 years. Generally, until the 80's there was one takedown in the match and it was in the first period. One thing hasn't changed though "a pin is still a pin". Okay Randy, pick me apart.
Posted By: Disney Re: best heavyweight in state history - 02/19/07 02:07 PM
Originally Posted By: crazy4wrestling
i don't know if Zlatnik is "unstoppable", joe payne lost to him 3-2 earlier this year. Heavyweights are not at the level like they used to be in my opinion. He is an extremely good athlete though.


I thought the score was 3 - 0.
Posted By: Husker Fan Re: best heavyweight in state history - 02/19/07 02:47 PM
Originally Posted By: Bronco Wrestler
can't be stopped or hasn't been stopped? The kansas class of HWT's is far down compared to other weights.


That is an interesting assessment. With guys like Zlatnick, Disney, Andrus and Holly being the top ranked heavyweights in Kansas this year you think the heavyweight class is down compared to the other weights in Kansas. I guess it must be a national thing because as I recall Andrus only lost 3-2 earlier in the year to Dom Bradley of Blue Springs who was ranked No. 1 in the nation at the time. I guess heavyweights must be down this year across the nation compared to the other weights. Is that how you see it?
Wasn't there a kid named Sprigg come through Norton Kansas a couple years back? I'd say he deserves a little bit of mention here. I'm not saying he's the best, but he's up there in my books. He's currently wrestling for Army right now if I'm not mistaken.
Posted By: Caleb Payne Re: best heavyweight in state history - 02/19/07 05:24 PM
What about Jordan Badore? Or maybe Tyler Jessen? Both great wrestlers!
Posted By: klint deere Re: best heavyweight in state history - 02/19/07 06:10 PM
Vince, i think the overall depth at Heavy is way down. True, you have a great cluster of not just state level kids but national level kids in Disney, Andrus, Zlatnick, and I would throw Foster in that as well. But, at the tournaments i was at this year, there was maybe one quality big guy, compared to lots of depth at other classes
Posted By: Husker Fan Re: best heavyweight in state history - 02/19/07 08:14 PM
Klint,

You would know that better than I do. I felt the heavyweight class was pretty good at the Bobcat but Zlatnick clearly stood out over the rest there. I am definitely not an expert on it. Is the depth in the heavyweight class this year really that much different than other years?

Sometimes I wonder if the lack of opportunity due to the small number of weight classes discourages some of the bigger football players from coming out for wrestling. Does the fact that there is more money available for football scholarships also contribute to some football players deciding to concentrate on weight lifting during this time of year? I know there were two senior Aquinas football players who were attending the Regionals as spectators on Saturday who have signed to play football at Notre Dame and Northwestern. Those two guys are big, very athletic and would have definitely been great high school wrestlers at Aquinas.

I meant the overall depth not the top few guys, granted there are good guys in Kansas at Hwt. but not the depth that the other weight classes have.
Posted By: klint deere Re: best heavyweight in state history - 02/20/07 01:25 AM
I think it is markedly down. The reasons why, i am not sure.

Klint
Posted By: Husker Fan Re: best heavyweight in state history - 02/20/07 11:01 AM
Originally Posted By: klint deere
I think it is markedly down. The reasons why, i am not sure.

Klint


Klint,

You, Alex and I believe at least one other poster on this topic have said that the overall depth is down this year in heavyweight. I guess I have to accept that is probably true. No one else has disputed you guys on that. I am not an expert on it. I have really not watched that much high school varsity wrestling before this year since this is my son's first year as a varsity wrestler. This is also really my son's first year wrestling as a heavyweight. I do recall occassionally reading on the high school forum in recent past years where people were then saying how there were not that many good heavyweights. Last year there were people telling me that my son who was wrestling 2nd team 189 for Aquinas as a freshman should consider going up to heavyweight since he could be competitive there even around 205-220 due to there being so few good heavyweights.

For these reasons I am skeptical that this problem just popped up this year. It kind of makes you wonder why so many seem to want to keep their weight down when there is such great opportunity for success in the heavyweight division. Maybe more should do what my son has done over the last three years and just lift to build muscle and put on 20 pounds a year. He went from 150 in 7th grade to 165 in 8th to 189 as a 9th grader and now is at 220 and is wrestling in 285. His current plan is to lift and gain even more weight and muscle over the summer so he can do better in football and become more competitive in the heavyweight division next year as a junior.

As to why the depth of good heavyweight wrestlers might be down this year per Klint, Alex and the other poster, I do not think it is because there is a lack of good heavyweight athletes in Kansas. As I said in an earlier post, I saw at Regionals two Division I college bound senior Aquinas football players who are excellent athletes and I am sure either one would have been a very good heavyweight wrestler for Aquinas. I know there are many other big athletic kids on the Aquinas football players who would have been very good wrestlers. I am positive there are these type of football heavier athletes at many schools across Kansas. It would not surprise me that you could find them at just about every high school.

So why are they not coming out? I think that it is because there are too few weight classes for heavier kids. They don't want to mess with dropping 15 to 20 pounds are more to get down to 215. I think this decision is made by slightly lighter football players too who do not want to lose weight to go down to 160, 171, 189 or 215. I think they and probably their football coaches too just prefer for them to concentrate on lifting weights to put on weight and muscle to prepare for their next football season rather than to be losing weight to try and fit a weight class. They see football as a better long term possibility for a financial award too since there are more football scholarships available and the football scholarships pay for more than most wrestling scholarships. I see these as the two primary reasons that heavier football players do not get involved in wrestling.
Posted By: Husker Fan Re: best heavyweight in state history - 02/21/07 10:33 AM
Originally Posted By: Bronco Wrestler
321A
103- 3
112- 2
189- 1
215- 1
285- 1
Total- 8

4A
119- 1
125- 1
135- 1
145- 1
152- 1
Total- 5

5A
103- 3
112- 3
119- 1
125- 1
135- 2
140- 1
145- 1
152- 3
160- 2
171- 2
189- 3
215- 1
285- 2
Total- 25

6A
103- 4
112- 1
119- 2
125- 2
130- 3
135- 4
140- 2
145- 4
152- 1
160- 3
171- 1
215- 5
Total 32

321A 8 = 3.5% of qualifiers have losing records
4A 5 = 2.2% of qualifiers have losing records
5A 25 = 11.1% of qualifiers have losing records
6A 32 = 14.2% of qualifiers have losing records

So "Best" Class in '06-'07
4A
321A
5A
6A

These are based off the records in the State Brackets but I know they aren't all right, and I also didn't count the .500 records so these are truely losing records. Just thought since no one had done it yet this year I thought I would.


Alex,

I was looking over the other topic you introduced and I noticed from this analysis that you provided us that the results do not seem to support your opinion that there is a lack of depth in the heavyweight class this year. In 3-2-1A only 1 of the 8 with a losing record was a heavyweight. In 4A none of the five with losing records were heavyweights. In 5A only 2 of the 25 with losing records were heavyweights. In 6A zero of the 32 with losing records were heavyweights.

Using the same logic that you used to say that this analysis shows that the best class in 06-07 was 4A, then 321A, then 5A and followed by 6A, I would have to conclude that it also shows that heavyweight class compares very well in depth this year to some of the other weight classes.
Posted By: muffdiver0707 Re: best heavyweight in state history - 02/21/07 03:22 PM
even though this guy only wrestled heavy 1 year... Jordan Bedore from goodland!!!
Posted By: wrestler1086 Re: best heavyweight in state history - 02/21/07 10:11 PM
I definately know he is not the best in Kansas ever but my 8th grade year Junction City had this man beast of a HWT. I think his last name was Lee. At the Salina South tourny I seen him just hurl our heavy weight. I never had the pleasure of watching the greats you guys all are talking about but this guy was the most aggressive I ever saw.
Posted By: cjws Re: best heavyweight in state history - 02/21/07 11:13 PM
steve chewy carter emporia only had two loses he was from emporia he has since past away. he only lost to a guy named ruther who ended up in the nfl.
Posted By: Talb Re: best heavyweight in state history - 02/22/07 04:52 AM
I was talking to some people about Boyle tonight and they told me that he was part of a pretty fair 4x100 team! How many other heavyweights can say that?
Posted By: el scorcho Re: best heavyweight in state history - 02/22/07 06:35 AM
I believe Jeff Boyle of Norton would be the best heavyweight I have ever seen. I don't know if anyone remembers but I think he pinned the guy in the state finals in less than 1 minute. What other wrestler has ever done that. He wrestled our heavyweight shot a double leg picked him up and put him straight to his back. I mean he picked up a guy who weighed 260+. Unbelievable.
Posted By: KSUCHARGER Re: best heavyweight in state history - 02/22/07 06:56 AM
This is for Husker Fan.

You make some good points about the lack of heavier weight divisions. I agree there should probably be another weight class between 185 and 200 to fit those "light Heavy" guys into.
You are probably right that many football players do not wrestle because they do not want to lose weight. But, wrestlers do not have to lose weight to be part of the team. Those bigger guys that have aspirations of playing football at the next level would realize an increase in much of their agile ability. Wrestling is especially great for lineman becauase wrestling teaches balance, one on one combat/hand fighting (which is seen in the trenches), foot work, and stamina. The list can go on. How many times do you see successful D1 football players who have wrestled in high school and have one state medals from their respective high school state tournaments. I have seen quite a few Beddor, Boyle to name a couple. Besides the guy lined up next to you on the football field isn't always in the same weight class anyway. So if a kid weighs 230 it would probably make him better to wrestle someone 260 or so. I think any football coach would be silly not to encourage his football players to wrestle as well. 3 months of wrestling is going to do as much as 3 months in the weight room. Muscles may not get as big, but better agility will be gained.
Thank you

Posted By: Husker Fan Re: best heavyweight in state history - 02/22/07 10:45 AM
KSUCHARGER,

I agree with you that a football player would gain a lot by wrestling at this time of year. I think that is especially true for a heavier lineman. All those things that you stated a lineman could gain agility, balance, footwoork, hand to hand combat and coordination too are definitely there in wrestling for a lineman. Other football positions would gain from those things too but I agree a lineman would really benefit from 4 months of wrestling training and competition each year. They could do some strength training during the wrestling season too. Delaying their main strength training until the end of February would still give them enough time before football to get bigger and stronger.

I agree with you that a football player at 230 would also benefit to wrestle heavier kids around 260. My son is 220 and has wrestled this year several wrestlers that range from 260 to 270 and I can see where it is helping his footwork to grapple against these bigger wrestlers on their feet. That is very much like what he will be dealing with on the football field next year when as a lineman he is either blocking, trying to combat a blocker or tackling.

You made some great points. The one point that I will disagree with is your statement that the guy you are lined up by is not always in the same weight class as you anyway. For a lineman I do not think that is true. Most of the lineman are over 215 and most are over 215 by a pretty good margin. Aquinas for instance probably had at least ten football players who are well over 215 and potentially could be very good heavyweight wrestlers. There is only one 285 spot open. Most of these athletes are pretty competitive and they are not going to be satisfied with just practicing. They would want that varsity spot. I believe that the lack of weight classes for these football players discourages them from coming out for wrestling. The problem starts before 215 also.

I would like to see weight classes at 171, 185, 200, 220, 245 and 285 instead of our current 171, 189, 215 and 285. A spokesperson for the wrestling organization that changed 275 to 285 this year said that the goal was to allow more of the heavier kids to be able to wrestle. I do not think raising the weight class from 275 to 285 had much effect on increasing the number of heavier kids wrestling nationally. I do believe if they changed the 4 weight classes to the six that I suggested that they would definitely would get more of the heavier athletes wrestling. I think more football coaches would encourage their athletes to wrestle at this time of year too.
Vince-
I know as a parent of a lighter heavyweight, you and I have had many conversations about this. Where in high school I do think it should be changed, but I think it needs to start in the kids wrestling. There could be another weight bracket that would allow the kid that is 12/U 220 and wrestling the heavyweight bracket to be more suited with his competition. I know my son has wrestled kids 30 pounds heavier than him in the past and now in high school. Where he is quicker than most, all it takes is one mistake and where someone in the 135 bracket that is wrestling someone their own weight has a good chance of correcting that mistake...you are wrestling someone 30 pounds heavier than you...you probably don't have that chance to correct it.
Posted By: Dad 275 Re: best heavyweight in state history - 02/22/07 11:25 AM
Husker Fan
I must agree with you about adding more weights on the heavy classes. My son also weights about 230 and wrestles heavier wrestlers. So hopefully next year more weights classes will be added.
Will see you and Jacob at state.
Posted By: coach neil Re: best heavyweight in state history - 02/22/07 01:48 PM
Nice thoughts on providing more weight classes, but it is unrealistic. As coaches we have a tough enough time filling 14 weight classes let alone 16-18. Maybe some schools could fill that many, but most can’t. Also, keep in mind a couple of other things. Additional weight classes means additional money for already strained budgets. Additional weight classes also means more time. It might sound bad as a coach, but as a coaches we do need a little break on the weekends. If you add more weight classes imagine how much longer tournaments will last. I enjoy my sport, but I also enjoy my time with my family.
Fourteen weight classes is more than enough. We use to only have twelve and college only has ten. So, were pretty lucky to have what we have. I personally would like to go back to the 12 weight class format for number reasons alone. Nothing is stopping these big guys from coming out and plenty of undersized heavyweights have had success against heavier opponents. If you are familiar with wrestling the 285 lb. class was at one time called Unlimited. There were some really big boys out on the mat. I saw some that were in the upper 300 lb. range. I understand that more people would like to see their kids have the opportunity to wrestle on the varsity squad, but it is about competition and winning a spot the opportunity is already provided. I don’t think we will ever see the day when football goes to 15 players or basketball goes to 10. Again, it is just not realistic.
The weight classes have been adjusted several times over the years but they are never going to be adjusted to suit everyone. I think if you talk to most wrestling coaches you will find that it is not a lack of weight classes that is stopping these big boys from coming out for wrestling. Wrestling is a tough sport and probably takes more dedication than any other sport. Plain and simple people look for easier things to do and wrestling just doesn’t fall into the easy category. I know most people in the crowd don’t understand how tough this sport can be and my dad is one of them. I don’t know how many times over the years that I have said “Dad it isn’t that easy to do”. I guess before we think about adding more weight classes we need to first ascertain how much desire kids really have to wrestle. There are plenty of opportunities for kids to wrestle. Kids need to take the initiative to take advantge of those opportunities.
Posted By: wrestle007 Re: best heavyweight in state history - 02/22/07 03:08 PM
i guess when i see jacob nowak having the success hes having i dont see the need for a bigger weight class. if a kid that size as a sophomore can place at state(which i'm sure he will) its obvious that he is competing very well so i dont see the need for a new weight class for kids like him.
Posted By: Husker Fan Re: best heavyweight in state history - 02/22/07 05:43 PM
 Originally Posted By: wrestle007
i guess when i see jacob nowak having the success hes having i dont see the need for a bigger weight class. if a kid that size as a sophomore can place at state(which i'm sure he will) its obvious that he is competing very well so i dont see the need for a new weight class for kids like him.


You are right the problem is not specific to Jacob and thank you for the compliment to Jacob, but I don't know about him placing this year that remains to be seen. That would sure be nice.

What about the other potential heavyweights at Aquinas though where is the opportunity for them? We had a senior state heavyweight qualifier from last year who might have been able to place at state this year. We also had a 189 state qualifier from last year who would have been 215 this year. I believe he had an injury at the start of the wrestling season but he would have been competing for the 215 against Mike Hammer a returning state placer. It is not just about whether a lighter wrestler like Jacob can be competitive against someone 40 to 50 pounds heavier. It is also about there not being enough opportunity. Think of how few weight classes are available from 171 to 285.

I thought Coach Neil's reply was very good and I don't have time to address it fully now but I will next week and probably in a new topic. I apologize to the topic originator that we have gone a little astray on this to the original topic question.
Posted By: 24/7 Re: best heavyweight in state history - 02/22/07 06:13 PM
I will throw out a couple names for you....

Mike Culberson-Leavenworth 75-76 I think won grand state both years it was in existence.

Steve Nave-Coffeyville 81-82 Went on to play football at OU.

Both were pretty much unstoppable at least in my memory.

24/7
Posted By: Aaron Sweazy Re: best heavyweight in state history - 02/28/07 08:04 AM
Speaking of Jeff Boyle, anybody notice anything at this following link:

http://cgi.ebay.com/Rulon-Gardner-Olympi...1QQcmdZViewItem
Posted By: tothetop Re: best heavyweight in state history - 03/02/07 04:55 AM
jordan bedore from goodland
Posted By: wrestler4cards Re: best heavyweight in state history - 03/02/07 04:24 PM
robert collins. undefeated state champ. 35-0. he had 29 pins I think
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