Kansas Wrestling
Posted By: Bronco Wrestler Hardest Class in Kansas - 02/22/05 01:10 AM
I know this is a topic that is debated every year and will never be settled but this year I think you can say that for sure 5A & 6A are not it...let's look at this....

Losing Records by Class-
6A- 34 (32 Schools)
5A- 38 (32 Schools)
4A- 6 (64 Schools)
321A- 9 (64 Schools)

With that being said with 5A & 6A should have double the losing records to make up for the schools, so 68 and 76 respectively, or divide 321A & 4A by half so you get the right number as 5&6A, so 3 and 4.5 respectively, you decide

If you have an opinion different than that of mine, please feel free to share it but keep it clean as this is a debate and kind of interesting to a lot of people, so to steal a line from boxing,

LET'S GET READY TO RUMBLE.............
Posted By: MES Re: Hardest Class in Kansas - 02/22/05 01:28 AM
4A has been overall the most competitive from my prospective. Many times state medalist stay home in 4A, just a matter of numbers and talent, the more wrestlers on a team, the more chances of having more talent at the regional tourney.

All classes have great individuals and any given year a great wrestler in any class could defeat all.

3A regional in the Northwest is ALWAYS very difficult.

6A and 5A have there difficult regionals also
Posted By: Bronco Wrestler Re: Hardest Class in Kansas - 02/22/05 01:47 AM
So far 4A leads the poll by 7 votes

9 Votes now

12 Votes now.....

and still growing,
32 Vote Lead for 4A....
Posted By: RichardDSalyer Re: Hardest Class in Kansas - 02/22/05 01:49 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by Bronco Wrestler:
I know this is a topic that is debated every year and will never be settled but this year I think you can say that for sure 5A & 6A are not it...
There are few teams in the state who can contend with Manhattan (6A), STA (6A), Arkansas City (5A), Bishop Carroll (5A), Kansas City Turner (5A), Shawnee Heights (5A) and Valley Center (5A).

There likely are only two (2) schools in 3A which can compete - Norton and Silver Lake, and several in 4A, Abilene, Clay Center, Colby, Columbus, Goodland and Santa Fe Trail.

With that said, wrestling has historically been tougher in NW Kansas communities and I see no reason to believe this trend is coming to an end, however to suggest the classification as a whole is superior is false.
Posted By: RedStorm Re: Hardest Class in Kansas - 02/22/05 02:56 AM
William Bock - Eudora (160) is actually 19-19 so that makes only 5 losing records.
Posted By: ABartels Re: Hardest Class in Kansas - 02/22/05 03:28 AM
This year i would have to agree that 4A dominates both 6A and 5A.
Posted By: Larry Wagner Re: Hardest Class in Kansas - 02/22/05 03:40 AM
Bronco Wrestler, your math is only half right. If there were twice as many schools in 5A and 6A, they would not only have twice as many wrestlers, on average, with losing records, BUT they would also have twice as many wrestlers with winning records, on average.

The reason for more wrestlers with losing records making it to state in 5A and 6A is strictly due to the fewer number of varsity wrestlers total than in the other classes. With 8 teams at each regional, at least half of the wrestlers are going to make it to state, period.

Obviously, some of those kids are going to have a losing record (we can assume that half of them do on average across all weight classes each year). Some of those kids with losing records are going to place at regionals for a variety of reasons (they've improved enough during the course of the year to become better than the kids with winning records, or were always the better wrestler but saw tougher competition, or just plain wrestled better than the competition on that given day).
Statistically, the numbers say that is going to happen far more often in 5A and 6A.

If there were twice as many 5A and 6A schools, the number of wrestlers with losing records making it to state would almost assuredly be far less (due to more wrestlers with winning records to compete for the 4 state qualifying placings at the regionals for each weight class). In fact, we would probably see numbers similar to the other two classes, since the total number of varsity wrestlers per class would be similar if there were twice as many 5A and 6A schools.

So, it is all in the numbers. Statistically, it is easier for one with a losing record to make it to state in 5A and 6A, on average.

If one wants to use that as the only criteria to decide which class will have the toughest state tournament, the answer is in the numbers. But I think that would be a very poor criteria to use by itself to determine the "toughness" of each class' state tournament. There are lots of other factors that should also be considered to make such a determination (many of which have been discussed/debated/argued, etc. elsewhere on the forum).
Posted By: jmadden Re: Hardest Class in Kansas - 02/22/05 12:13 PM
3-2-1A has like 81 schools not 64.
Posted By: jmadden Re: Hardest Class in Kansas - 02/22/05 12:18 PM
Only two 3A schools in the state that compete with all those other schools? A quick check at the Hays Tournament shows Shawnee Heights took 4th behind St. Francis and Oakley. Wouldn't that be competing?
Posted By: mike fairleigh Re: Hardest Class in Kansas - 02/22/05 03:23 PM
I just looked at the 5a regional at Emporia. only 4 classes had a full 8 competitor bracket.
several of the 123 and 4a brackets are not full, but they certainly have more than 8 in them, and ] I found none with only 6, as in the case of 103 at emporia. since i didn't look at any of the other 5 or 6 a brackets I can't say if this is a trend, but it seems to me that in a typical 4a or 123a regional, in order for the numerical odds of survival to be the same, you would have to have 40 percent or so of the teams participating open at that weight. Most of the 321 and 41 brackets that I saw had 11 or 12 in them. Based only on the Emporia brackets, it looks like they averaged around 7 wrestlers, while most smaller school brackets average about 11. that is about 50% more difficult numerically.
Posted By: Nigel Isom Re: Hardest Class in Kansas - 02/22/05 03:41 PM
Forgetting all the numerical facts, we all know to look at the whole picture.

The only way to make a proper prediction as to which class THIS YEAR has the most quality wrestlers is to look at the top 6 as they finish in state.
Posted By: RIP Re: Hardest Class in Kansas - 02/22/05 03:51 PM
What would be awesome to see, is a dual match between state champions. I know this won't happen, but it would be great to have.
Posted By: Wrestling Scholar Re: Hardest Class in Kansas - 02/22/05 04:01 PM
A lot of states have a dual state championship. That would be fun to see in Kansas and great for the kids and fans.

I bet most of the Coach's would vote for this. Only drawback would be the additonal cost.
Posted By: parkwayred Re: Hardest Class in Kansas - 02/22/05 04:16 PM
This is getting old and it serves absolutely no purpose! Any young man, losing record included that competes in this demanding sport is a “WINNER”. I wish it were possible that everyone could qualify for the State Tournament. If he is 0-35 or 35-0 he still had to go into the practice room every day and work to get better while his buddies were drinking slushies and chasing the girls. In all reality the young man with a losing record shows the most courage by continuing to go week in and week out and having his tail whipped on. Think about it… All that work during the year to have someone on this forum to say kids with a sub 500 records doesn’t deserve a right to be a State Champion. By virtue of his dedication throughout the year, I say give them a chance, this thread is demeaning to all the hard work that they have put forth this season.
Posted By: RichardDSalyer Re: Hardest Class in Kansas - 02/22/05 04:37 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by parkwayred:
This is getting old and it serves absolutely no purpose! Any young man, losing record included that competes in this demanding sport is a “WINNER”. I wish it were possible that everyone could qualify for the State Tournament. If he is 0-35 or 35-0 he still had to go into the practice room every day and work to get better while his buddies were drinking slushies and chasing the girls. In all reality the young man with a losing record shows the most courage by continuing to go week in and week out and having his tail whipped on. Think about it… All that work during the year to have someone on this forum to say kids with a sub 500 records doesn't deserve a right to be a State Champion. By virtue of his dedication throughout the year, I say give them a chance, this thread is demeaning to all the hard work that they have put forth this season.
Well said Red, I could not agree more!
Posted By: mike fairleigh Re: Hardest Class in Kansas - 02/22/05 04:46 PM
You guys are right, mail everybody a gold medal so that no one has to go the the humiliation of getting beat and call it a season.
Posted By: Computerized Shoes Re: Hardest Class in Kansas - 02/22/05 05:18 PM
Too many softies...I'm sure most of us sucked at one time (some of us still do obviously if I qualified) and we work through it. I agree with Bronco Wrestler and whoever else that says 4A is tougher. I personally believe that in order to make a plausible arguement about something you must be able to present both sides of the issue. I have wrestled both 4A and 5A two years each. I easily qualified for 5A my sophomore year and probably should have placed but... I sucked. I worked hard, got better and barely squeezed through last years 4A regional in which everyone dogged on for being "the easy one." This year I've stepped it up a notch and hope to bring home a medal. Regardless, there are always quality wrestlers in every class but 4A is the toughest throughout. Bottomline.

Andrew
Posted By: Dingbat Re: Hardest Class in Kansas - 02/22/05 05:53 PM
I'm with CS. At first, everyone sucks. You find out who the real "winners" are when they do the things necessary to no longer suck. Take Prant Garker, for instance. He had been out for the sport for 4-6 years, yet he was still getting whipped. His fault. Stop speaking up for the weiners--it is their own fault if they are bad.
Posted By: P. Pitbull's Old Dog Re: Hardest Class in Kansas - 02/22/05 06:21 PM
Go watch the senior classic on Thurs. in Topeka right before kids state. It is small school vs. big school and we will see who the toughest is...... 6A, 5A vs. 4A, 321A.

Don't miss it.........

Coach Peterman
Posted By: RichardDSalyer Re: Hardest Class in Kansas - 02/22/05 06:33 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by Dingbat:
I'm with CS. At first, everyone sucks. You find out who the real "winners" are when they do the things necessary to no longer suck. Take Prant Garker, for instance. He had been out for the sport for 4-6 years, yet he was still getting whipped. His fault. Stop speaking up for the weiners--it is their own fault if they are bad.
Dingbat (AKA Damon Parker):

Not nice to speak of your younger brother in such a tone. While you were a two time state champion and also played in the 1998 Shrine Bowl Football game, you should not downgrade your siblings accomplishments. Shucks, he did finish second in the spelling bee.
Posted By: TCarmona Re: Hardest Class in Kansas - 02/22/05 06:49 PM
I am gonna jump around a little in trying to explain why I think the records shouldn't be that big of a factor in trying to gauge a class. My first thought takes me back to when I could fit into a singlet...just kidding.(**** I am fat!)hahaha. Being from around the Wichita area, we always wrestled schools close by. One year at state I had a 75% record, and a kid I wrestled was 16-0. I was kind of nervous, and had not seen any stuff on this kid. After I beat him I though who the heck did this kid wrestle during the year.
Posted By: TCarmona Re: Hardest Class in Kansas - 02/22/05 06:54 PM
Opps, not finished....Back when people though Ark City would never lose a State title, the made records look silly. Many times back then you would see some kid with a sub-par record that ened up in the finals. It was not cause they were in 5A cause many schools had respect for them. They were just kind of deep in spots like that Pats in the Super Bowl. I know that is off the sport here, but just trying to get you thinking.
Posted By: TCarmona Re: Hardest Class in Kansas - 02/22/05 07:06 PM
Last point. Bronco wrestler, aren't you Russell wrestler. Meaning that you are bias any way. Another way you might see is big schools that dual or wrestle at trnys. Dodge City is in the middle of nowhere, and they wrestle small schools. Many Wichita schools wrestle Rosehill, Augusta, El Doredo cause they are close. That is another way you can often tell how the classes go.
Posted By: Bronco Wrestler Re: Hardest Class in Kansas - 02/22/05 07:23 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by TCarmona:
Last point. Bronco wrestler, aren't you Russell wrestler.
NO I'M NOT, my name is Alex Ryan in real life, Bronco Wrestler on here, end of story!

Nothing against Dodge City anyway, but look at the records compared to the schools in that area... It says a lot. They have some good kids, but overall it's lacking

The state champions of all classes are about as equal as far as talent goes, but the talent from top to bottom in classes is thinner in the larger classes as more people play basketball than wrestle, it's just how it is, the 4A schools like Goodland wrestle all classes of schools, 321A Hoxie, St. Francis, 4A Colby just to name a few, look at the Colby Dual Tournament results and you can tell that they wrestle the bigger schools and still win, Goodland does it at the Bobcat... just look at the quality from top to bottom, 6 losing records as opposed to 34 in a class where you can win one match and make it to state, that's not as prestigious as winning 3-4 matches to even qualify... something doesn't equate here, you be the judge
Posted By: TCarmona Re: Hardest Class in Kansas - 02/22/05 07:44 PM
My deal was not about Dodge city. I was pointing out classes. You made no point except the same thing that all the 4a and 321a people say. "well we have 16 man brackets just to get into state." Every class goes through it's low points, but you have no other reasoning behind what you say. I am giving examples, examples you obiously don't understand.
Posted By: Prant Garker Re: Hardest Class in Kansas - 02/22/05 08:44 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by RichardDSalyer:
Dingbat (AKA FatBat):

Not nice to speak of glorious stud and wonderful speller Prant Garker in such a tone. While you were a two time state champion and also played in the 1998 Shrine Bowl Football game, you should not downgrade Prant's accomplishments. Shucks, he did finish second in the spelling bee.
Can we say....maaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaan cruuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuush? I do believe this post wins the "Creepy Man Crush of the Century Award."

Perhaps you should...oh I don't know...go take a cold shower? Yikes, man.
Posted By: RichardDSalyer Re: Hardest Class in Kansas - 02/22/05 10:56 PM
No need for a cold shower, and definetly no man crush. I leave that type of nonsense to you Manhattanites.

I have known for some time Dingbat was your older brother.

It was Damon who mentioned his two state championships and that he played in the Shrine Bowl football game. Did not take a rocket scientist to figure it out. I still believe Dingbat is also the missing Super Duper Mystery Man.

I will give you credit for cleverness in editing my original post in the quotation.
Posted By: Aaron Sweazy Re: Hardest Class in Kansas - 02/23/05 04:59 AM
Ok on 3a are we counting when a team that's consolodated splits for regionals: Herington becomes Herington and Hope? So is that 2 schools?
Posted By: RichardDSalyer Re: Hardest Class in Kansas - 02/23/05 09:47 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by Aaron Sweazy:
Ok on 3a are we counting when a team that's consolodated splits for regionals: Herington becomes Herington and Hope? So is that 2 schools?
The wrestlers from the consolidated schools split and the wrestlers begin wrestling for their home school.

Cody Garvin from Baxter Springs in 3A has been wrestling with Columbus in 4A all season.

The Hicks from Hope in 3A have been wrestling for Herington.

The three qualifiers from Sedgwick High School in 3A have been wrestling for Halstead.

I am sure there are others of which I am unaware.
Posted By: jmadden Re: Hardest Class in Kansas - 02/23/05 12:17 PM
Pitbulls Dog
That sounds familiar are you the one that said wait until the Newton tournament and we will see how Norton does and that will settle it and then the day after Newton said "That don't mean nothing"
Posted By: mike fairleigh Re: Hardest Class in Kansas - 02/23/05 03:39 PM
My money is on 1 through 4 a. Newton proved that Norton was for real, and last year when all the sr. hot shots had taken their best effort at the national competition, only Bedore (4a) and Gilliland (123a) were placing. there are two barometers that should mean something. Many people try to cite freestyle and Greco results into the mix, but these have little bearing to folkstyle- its like comparing it to basketball.
Posted By: Coach Luedke Re: Hardest Class in Kansas - 02/23/05 04:16 PM
I think wrestling is tough period. It does not matter what "A" you are in. We have great kids in Kansas!
Posted By: Fossil Re: Hardest Class in Kansas - 02/23/05 04:24 PM
I think it dont matter what class your in..It just matters what weight your wrestling..Alot of the weights are stacked with alot of tremendous wrestlers...
Posted By: Gibby Re: Hardest Class in Kansas - 02/24/05 11:47 AM
Calculus - hands down. Toughest class I ever took.

Oh are we talking about wrestling?

My bad......
Posted By: ksfanincarolina Re: Hardest Class in Kansas - 02/24/05 12:26 PM
Before everyone continues trashing 5A and 6A, you might want to consider how many current Div I wrestlers have come from each classification:

6A: Johnston(Iowa),Coleman(ISU),Bunch(Edinboro),Spaulding(NU),Bogart(Oregon),Dyer(OU),Tapler(OU),Beltran(Ohio),C. McCormick(MU),T. McCormick(MU),Bork(Stanford)
5A: Klein(NU),Hoover(NU),Gardner(Stanford)
4A: Murray(NU),Kriegbaum(AF),DeVoe(MU),Hershey(AF)
321A: ?

Feel free to add any Division I wrestlers I left out, but the point is obvious.

The number of athletes who go on to compete at the highest level means a lot more than regular season records, which are about as important as rankings...
Posted By: Aaron Sweazy Re: Hardest Class in Kansas - 02/24/05 12:35 PM
Quote:
The wrestlers from the consolidated schools split and the wrestlers begin wrestling for their home school.
But does it count for 2 in the stats above? or just the one consolodated school?

__________________________________

Quote:
The number of athletes who go on to compete at the highest level means a lot more than regular season records, which are about as important as rankings...
If we are talking about number going on to wrestle at college, I think the smaller classes might have more overall. Look at the DII ranks and figure out how many guys are filling the rosters. UNK, UNO, and UCO all great out of state DII schools have a majority of 4a kids on their rosters.
Posted By: ksfanincarolina Re: Hardest Class in Kansas - 02/24/05 12:59 PM
I'm talking about those wrestling at the highest collegiate level. Almost all of the former 6A wrestlers mentioned are at top flight Div I programs. Not to take away from wrestlers at Div II schools and lower or those programs, but there is no comparison to teams in the Big 10, Big 12, etc.
Posted By: BigPin22 Re: Hardest Class in Kansas - 02/24/05 02:34 PM
5A-Daniel Peterson (UTC)
6A-Ian Bork (Stanford)

It looks like 6A (by far) produces the most accomplished wrestlers from Kansas!
Posted By: Gary Ulmer Re: Hardest Class in Kansas - 02/24/05 03:23 PM
The number of 6a wrestlers in Div. I wrestling is no surprise. It is hard to imagine the quality of athlete that can filter down from a school of almost 2,000 kids.

Added to the shear numbers, the sophisticated weight rooms and weight programs, the year around wrestling clubs, and almost constant camps and clinics makes fertile ground for those great athletes.

I admire greatly the depth of the small school programs, but I think you will find that in most instances the 5a and 6a state champions are going to be hard to beat. Their numbers dictate great athletes and their access to the sport is hard to duplicate in small communities

I have heard Bronco Wrestler say that the reason there are more Div. I wrestlers from 6a is that the coaches can fly into Kansas City or Wichita more easily than they can Russell. I have a feeling that if there is a really great prospect anywhere in the state then the Div. I coach will find away to get there.

Gary Ulmer
Posted By: jmadden Re: Hardest Class in Kansas - 02/24/05 05:15 PM
Ulmer I think you know better. I suggest you go back home and take a good look at some of the kids wrestling for your alma-mater.
Posted By: Nigel Isom Re: Hardest Class in Kansas - 02/24/05 05:29 PM
ksfanincarolina and Coach Ulmer,

There are tons of kids from 4A and 3A schools that could have gone DI and choosen to go to a lower class, for a number of different reasons. Some of them wanted immediate varsity mat time, rather than wait 3 years to see that. Others don't like the DI schools in this area. There are tons of reasons why. But I cite as examples
Dustin Tovar - Abilene
Shaun Silvis - Augusta 2X DII national champion
The Bakers - Hoxie
Bryce Bahe - Goodland

Heck look at Danny Grater, in all likely hood he will be a 3 time state champion after this year. He could be a competitor in D-1 after a red shirt year and maybe 1 more, but he's going to Ft Hays, and I promise you its not because hes not D-1 material.

These are just a tiny tiny amount of names I could have added on there. Having a slightly higher number of D-1 athletes is not an indication of how tough a class is, all it means is that athletes made a different choice. And once again people have made a false arguement, only pointing out the state champions as a basis for toughest class. What about the other 15 competitors that were in that bracket? What good does it do to have a state champion who beat kids with 15-20 loses on the season on their way to the finals. The biggest arguement here is which class is toughest overall? Judging that by how its competitors CHOOSE to go to college is not a good way to do it.
Posted By: Wrestling Scholar Re: Hardest Class in Kansas - 02/24/05 05:46 PM
I'm going mixed on this one. The big classes (5A-6A) probably consistently put out the top notch D-1 kids. I think it's a statistical factor of larger pool of kids to choose from. This is supported by the earlier post on the number of kids from 6A and 5A wrestling Division 1. Also want to mention some of the kids are very succesful. See Bunch (ranked #1 currently), and Johnston.

Still haven't seen the post how many 1-4A kids wreslting D-1. Maybe they have a big list too.

On the other side, its a lot tougher to win state out of a 64 team pool than a 32 team pool. Overall the level of wrestling between classes is similar. You have to admit there is a lot of interclass wrestling. So I'm saying it's easier to win a 32 team pool than 64.

Also comment that possibly Norton may be the best team in state this year which is impressive.

But I think if you look over the years the 5a and 6A team state champions would have more depth so would probably beat the lower class champions.
Posted By: jmadden Re: Hardest Class in Kansas - 02/24/05 05:58 PM
I think some of this is obvious. Doesn't it make since that a kid from some little rural school with 200 kids in the whole school generally feels more comfortable transitioning through some place like Colby, Hays or similiar colleges in other states and some one from a place like Lawrence
Free-State with 1500 kids in school is just fine going to a Stanford or some other large campus and transition right in. Not every decision regarding college is based upon wrestling.
Posted By: Gary Ulmer Re: Hardest Class in Kansas - 02/24/05 06:10 PM
Tiger-75 & Nigel

Don't get me wrong! I am very proud of my alma mater as I am very proud of my roots in that region. The strength of character of those people and their kids is second to none in Kansas. We all know that often the strength of ones character is the difference between a successful wrestler and one who is not.

I would assure you that many students decide against Div. I schools for many reasons, and often wisely. I am an advocate of small colleges and always have been, my roots go deep into small college wrestling.

But I have coached in the big schools. There are drawbacks for someone attending schools of that size in metropolitan areas, but athleticism is not one and neither is accessibility to athletic opportunity. Those who choose to take advantage of their own abilities and the facilities in those geographic areas can reach Div. I proportions.

Gary Ulmer
Posted By: Off The Wall on the Mat Re: Hardest Class in Kansas - 02/25/05 05:24 PM
Excuse me but Murray from Nebraska took 2nd last year and he is a stud plus if you look on Luedke might be seen in the future after he is finished with Colby and Earl Jones when he leaves Labette
Posted By: Prant Garker Re: Hardest Class in Kansas - 02/25/05 07:17 PM
That's true, Murray DID take 2nd last year. Silly me, we've been wrong all along. 4A/321A really IS harder.

Oh wait, Roberson took 1st. Where did he go to school?....................

Note: this isn't taking anything away from Murray. To tell you the truth, I don't really think college success has much to do with it, but you all know where I stand on this one.
Posted By: tksnkc Re: Hardest Class in Kansas - 02/26/05 02:40 AM
This topic has been and always will be argued on and on. A avid believer in the thought that 4A was the toughest. I think the best way is to say "which classification is the most evenly competed". Back in the day when is seemed common place for a 5A or 6A team title to won with 200 plus points and a 4A title could be won with under 100 points (pre 6 place days) it is obvious where the paridy lies. Yes it seems the big D-1 one guys come from the big schools but the "teams" they were apart of could not compete with the great 4A and under teams of the same time period. When the word toughest is argued we sometimes forget about that kid who never won a state title or even placed, but yet never got majored. And there a ton of those small town kids out there that fit that bill. I would like to see the statistics of State Tourney match scores as far as number of wins by falls, t-falls, majors, and decisions by class to throw into the stats...
Posted By: stuckey Re: Hardest Class in Kansas - 02/27/05 12:49 PM
I remember being from Ark City and wrestling JV going to some 123A teams and wrestling their varsity teams!
Posted By: mike fairleigh Re: Hardest Class in Kansas - 02/27/05 12:59 PM
tcsnkc brings up parity. one of the things that I noticed at the coliseum this weekend was that in the first round on Friday, 4a was considerably behind 5a and 6a because there were fewer short matches. after that, everything kinda evened out, indicating to me that the upper and lower ends of the brackets were more closely matched in 4a. 4a seemed to have some really good guys, like Taplin and Grater, but you really can't take much away from guys like Baldridge either. top to top, probably we have reached an equilibrium. top to bottom, I think 4a is still tougher.
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