Well, I have another topic to play with. Officials at state. Now I know I am going to catch some crap for this but I believe that officiating in the state is in overall bad shape. There are a some good officials out there. However, there are some bad ones also.
So how do we fix this problem.....
Here is what I propose..
1) Pay them more...
I do believe they are very much underpaid for their job. Maybe 25-50% unerpaid. Add taxes being taken out in many cases and they don't make crap. If we pay them more, we might be able to get more people to do it, which in turns gives us a better shot at having good officials.
2)However, with this pay raise will come evaluations. I know we have evaluations now, but this good ole boy system is not working. WE NEED EVALUATIONS THAT COUNT. Have coaches during the year send in evaluation on the officials at the duals and tourneys. Have a person go take a look at the ones that are getting bad evaluations. Heck, also praise the ones that are doing good.
3)We need to find a way to get all officials together to get on the same page. What is stalling, what is near fall, what is a reversal, etc. It seemed that East Officials and West officials call a match totally different.
I know I am going to get at least one response that says, why don't you try officiating and see how hard it is. Well, I have, and it's hard as hell. I don't ever want to do it again. But you are getting paid for what you are doing. These kids have worked too hard for an official to take a match from him. We have to get this right and soon. Some need to retire, some need to speed up, some need to get on the mat to count near fall, need to read a rule book, some need to give it up. However, there are some good ones! Let's get them to teach the bad ones and make them better.
P.S. and some might want to invest in a bigger shirt and realize that the fans are watching the kids wrestle, not the officials officiate.
I know that we have had a lot of complaints about stalling this year. But the level of stalling calls at State were ridiculous. People who had a patient style of wrestling, were definitely at a disadvantage. To tie up a match on a stalling call is one thing, to award one is just plain bad reffing (sp). I watched several matches that the ref was calling stalling when there was real activity and the top person was working a leg ride move to drag the person over.
I would have to second the stalling calls… I understand the need to work of to the side when on top but when the bottom man has his arm stretched out and does not work to his base what are you supposed to work from? Also when guys are on their feet trying to work inside control how can you call a double stall on little guys? The heavy’s don’t get called for this. What disappoints me is call it the same way all year or don’t call it at all. There is no reason to change your philosophy at the State tournament.
I do no tthink the stalling was called consistently through out...75% of the refs were on the same page
Also the cool cat with the bald head and sport band glasses is the man! I love his style and demeanor. His mat presence is phenomenal. What's his name? #1 all weekend.
I agree being a ref is a tough job,you have to let a lot roll off your shoulders. By the way, I have a tough job, and so does my neighbor, and just about everyone else. One of the tougher jobs is getting to the state tournament with average strength and quickness. Some are not born with wonderful reflexes, so they rely on other things to help them compete, like more hours in the gym, and tougher dieting. I witnessed this type of job for the last 12 seasons.
Having a placing at state taken away by an obviously bad call is inexcusable, remember I said obviously, not borderline. I witnessed this very thing in a second round 5A 119 match.
Paying refs more might be a good start, competition will raise the bar in any discpline. I don't know if there is an evaluation done by the coaches at the end of the season , but that would be a useful tool. On the other hand , making the refs jump through too many hoops could possiibly drive some of the good ones away.
That kid was my son, and somewhere along the line he has learned to lose gracefully and accept life as it comes, I am proud of him, for he is a better man than I ,because my butt is still a bit frosty.
im in favor of ref evaluation, there should be a ballot card the caoches fill out at the end of every meet that rates how teh refs did their job, and as for the stalling issue, i wouldnt mind the calls being quick as long as they were consistent
good one, and as long as the refs know that a coach is filling out a card after the game on them, but which coach gets the calls then? The one who actually takes the time to fill out a card, or the one who don't.
Might be a good idea, but someone besides a coach might be a better choice although don't ask who. AD maybe. or a neutral evaluator.
Red--the ref you speak of is known only as 'Phoney.' And maybe you didn't see too much of him...he super sucks.
Why not have an official do the evaluations? If we had a qualified individual doing this, the officials would be more likely to accept the critiques and criticisms. It should also help with the consistency on how calls such as stalling are being made.
I would not go as far as to say someone sucks or not, but I have to agree with Dingbat, Phoney gave a stalling point in the last 10 seconds of a tied match , effectively handing the victory to the opponent. I dont remember who was wrestling, but I bet THEY remember. I believe it was a larger size, you know the kind that resemble a couple of dancing bears.
Evaluations by impartial observers would be ideal, however, I believe an end of season evaluation by seniors would fulfill the need. Who else has an intimate knowledge of the referees actions than the wrestler. Too many of the coaches know the refs too well, and the good old boy system wouldnt be totally eliminated.
Ok...I'll give you some of my favorite refs that actually refereed this week although some names might not mean anything.
Brady Sauder
Larry Alley
Bob Warkentine
I also saw one of the best refs from Kansas ever, but didn't get to say hi to him: Jim Ramierez
I think that the Official who was officiating the Joey Ortiz-Dexter Deeds match, stole the win from Ortiz.
Well, the 6A 189 finals match was horribly officitated. Butler from J.C. had to have taken 30 shots to 0 and a stall call was never given. I could not believe what I was seeing. 6A 160 was also horribly officiated. I would have double stalled both of them out of the match. Neither one took a shot in 3 periods or OT. Hell they might as well started with a coin flip. Worst match I have ever seen at state. Stalling needs to be addressed at this level for sure.
Elliot in the Semi's at 119, made dumb mistake in OT that cost him the match. however, he should not have even been there. There was 2-5 points taken from him.
Im done venting!
Church,
I hope the "she" was a typo...lol!
Phil Martin is also a horrible ref he has a huge chip on his shoulder. He screwed over a kid at state from herington who i think he dislikes more then anyone in the state. of course this kid should never benn in the situation to getting beat on two bad calls but this isnt the firwst time this ref has hosed the kid, or his school. i think some of the hoxie people would agree with me on this one that watched the baker weatherbee match in the quarters at state he may have put the screws to baker just a little bit in that match. maybe some of you have seen him there. what does everyone else think of Mr. Phil Martin
My fealing is that to be a wrestler you have to have a certain amount of confidence and ego. Also I think that most officials are ex wrestlers, and that ego comes into play. I feel that when referee's start letting their ego's get into play, then they are taking away from the kids, which we all know is what is important. I saw this happen from a very respected official at Lawrence High this past season. He took upon himself to threaten this woman about a call against her son during a blood time out 6 feet from the grandstand. My feeling is that the ref's job is to control the mat not let his ego dictate the parents enthusiasim(sic).
Phil Martin is a great guy to talk to as are all the referees...they have a passion for the sport or they wouldn't be out there working long hours at tournaments. I by no means am one of his biggest fans, but I try to bite my lip...we are all entitled to a mistake here and there, and although a call or two have been made in the past that have caused a change in results by Phil, as well as some other referees, I think we need to step into their shoes sometimes. Phil has tenure and I know many a people may not care for him, but people might think he's a great ref too...there are always two sides to every story and we just have to remember that.
In closing "HOW DID I MANAGE NOT TO SAY SOMETHING BAD?"
Yes Swayz, it was..hahaha! I fixed it.
Phil is a great guy, who I've known for several years. He refered many of my matches when I wrestled and I always thought he was fair. There has been talk about him that I've heard before but I always shrug it off becuase 95% of the time the person watching has no idea about what they are talking about. My stance is this, unless you are a certified ref you have no business questioning the JUDGEMENT calls of a referee. And if you are certified then you really shouldn't be critical of your co-workers. I have made one exception and that was in the Ortiz-Deeds match because as a fan and a coach, and now as an official I know the call was wrong, and apparently so did everyone else in that entire Colusseum. There were a few refs at the tournament who maybe made a few mistakes but they are only human and when you ref for two straight days, make hundreds of calls your bound to mess a few up. Anyway back to Phil, hes one of the better refs in the State, very knowledgable about the rules, and I would have him ref at any tournament I was hosting.
"My stance is this, unless you are a certified ref you have no business questioning the JUDGEMENT calls of a referee. And if you are certified then you really shouldn't be critical of your co-workers. I have made one exception and that was in the Ortiz-Deeds match because as a fan and a coach, and now as an official I know the call was wrong, and apparently so did everyone else in that entire Colusseum."
Guess that allows only nigel to question calls!
I remember one time at a tournament this year, not the state tournament, a match was going into OT. I was standing behind the table and the ref came over and set "1 minute" meaning put one minute on the time clock. He then asked, "Red has one stall and green has 2?" I wanted to say, "What does that matter?" If they are stalling, call it. Don't be to chicken to if even if someone may lose because of it. Either it's stalling or it's not.
I look back at the match last year at 189 between Strait of Concordia and Weishaar of Atchison. The ref called a stall on Weishaar in Double OT - and it was, he was laying on the legs. The ref called the stall, it gave Strait the win. I feel the ref made the right call but it made the Atchison fans pretty PO'd. Like I said, it doesn't matter where in the match - if it's a stall it's a stall, just be consistant
Nope you didn't read very well. I said people have no business questioning calls, I didn't say they coulnd't. As for me I just happen toi be certified so very rarely would you hear me saying anything negative about another referee. This just happened to be a very bad situation that warranted it. Now in general as a coach you are not allowed to question judgement calls which is why Ortiz's coach really didn't say anything after the call was made because he knew he couldn't. Once again though I would like to say that I take no credit away from Dexter it was a heck of a match and either wrestler could have won. Deeds walked out on top and there is nothing now that will change that.
MyDixie,
While you are correct on your point of calling stalling if you see it. I imagine the ref just wanted to make sure that he knew what the situation was. As an official I would have done the same thing. You want to make absolutly sure that they are stalling before yo uend the match because of it. Now hanging on the legs is blatent stalling so that call would not be hard to make. But if a did was just riding a leg or something then you have to judge between a stalemate and stalling.
What about the stalling point finley was raped of in the Finley vs Peterson cons. semifinal match?
I believe that call was more "fleeing the mat". Both wrestlers committed that penalty.
I look back at the match last year at 189 between Strait of Concordia and Weishaar of Atchison. The ref called a stall on Weishaar in Double OT - and it was, he was laying on the legs. The ref called the stall, it gave Strait the win. I feel the ref made the right call but it made the Atchison fans pretty PO'd. Like I said, it doesn't matter where in the match - if it's a stall it's a stall, just be consistant
Wow a ref that made a call that actually went the way of Coach Moore, IT'S A MIRACLE! Moore has had more calls go against him than the desert has sand!
I don't know of anything off the top of my head that Phil Martin has done that might be remotely questionable dating back to 1998. Maybe before then I missed something...lol!
Swayz pay more attention.
Mike Brown of Topeka is exceptional. His ability to check his ego and attitude at the door is something most other refs should copy. He is a fan favorite. Mike is a working man and sometimes shows up to officiate without his shoes or is a few minutes late. (every body has their faults) but on the mat he is exceptional despite that one bad call at............
Phil is terrible
I have heard that he can not ref in clay center he is from clay center.
Nigel i know your a ref now and you wont talk crap on another ref but i think you have had a few words about phil in the past. I think he helped baker of hoxie get beat this year. He has been a bad ref for way to long something needs to be done he screwed me a few times in 98 and 99.
I was surprised to see him in hays last weekend i was not surprised to see him still screwing kids over.
In closing fire phil
Fire all the bad ones! J/K
Being a ref doesnt qualify you for anything other than, ""being a ref"" There are huge disparities in the quality of refereeing, I find it distressing when there are judgement calls being made that appear to not be tempered by guidelines.
Common situation::
It is aggravating when the score is 7-2 , the leader has been stalling for two periods and the ref warns him in the last ten seconds,,,give me a break.....I guess I dont really understand that call because I am not a ""referee"" but I am sure there is a perfectly good excuse,,er, explanation.
I see this as , making a halfa$$ed attempt to appease the other side, when in fact are outraged at the arrogance of assuming we are ignorant.
Pay them more, require continuing education, and adopt a set of standards to go by,,,,if they have standards that they can fall back on,,that eliminates arguments. There should be other requirements as well, not deaf, dumb,and blind.HAR
Where are all the young officials, there seems to be a great need for younger officials. Why don't you guys that are complaining pay your dues, get registered, attend the clinics, go to the rules meetings, don't forget the rules interpetation meeting,don't forget reading the rule book taking the test, then get started working some matches. My question is why are all the "wrong calls" occuring in the third period in the last seconds. What happened in the previous 5 + minutes of the match? Coaches should teach the wrestlers to work the full 6 minutes not stall around till the final seconds then have the official steal the match from them with a "bad call" Overall I thought the State Tournament was a well run event, they could speed up the finals but other than that it was well run and provided a spotlight for the finest wrestling in the State.
The younger guys would love to step in put on the stripes and make a few bucks but the antiques won't step back and let them. Hell I'd go as far as to say that the younger guys could even get low enough quick enough to see a pin.Not only are the ref's getting worse they don't really even care if you like it or not. I agree with everything justadad has said including let the seniors evaluate the refs. Lets improove kansas wreslting anfd get rid of theese deadbeat refs. Time for them to move on.
Swayz pay more attention.
What did I miss. Strait got the call and is from Concordia....Moore is the coach of Concordia, unless you are talking something else.
Also I might add I don't think pay is the issue.
The coaches go 4 to 6 days a week for a hell of alot less. Where's the love of the sport man. Sorry ref's are over paid. Lack of pay is no reason to screw a wrestler. Don't even try to make like ref's dont screw some kids on purpose. Don't make me name names. LOL
you make some excellent points. Big fat guys like me (smart as I am) have no business officiating. I can't tell you how many times at the regional the ref refused to get down on the mat where he belonged and be in position. Good officials study the rule book and case book and know exactly what the rules are verbatum. Others just think they have been doing it long enough they should know. Good officials attend some meets when they are not officiating amd observe. (I wonder how many of those who didn't qualify to officiate at state took the time to go anyway. Good officials study film on the job they did and do a fair self-evaluation. Good officials make a point to keep track of the little things like making sure the score is right. Good officials leave the ego and attitude and the door and hustle while on the mat. Good officials can blow a call but will wonder about it and not go the chair and laugh about it.
Fanatic I think you make a good point there and i'm pretty sure I know exactly what ref and what situation yo uare talking about. Mr. Church I htink you have your ideas all wrong. I can say with a lot of certainty that MOST refs would not purposely try to screw a kid out of a match. Why? Becuase its pretty obvious when you do it. However the ones that do probably do so becuase the coach of the particular kid is down his throat on every single call. I know I blow calls sometimes, but I strive every time im out on the mat to get a little bit better. Since I've only been a ref for two years they are still times when I'll see something I've never seen before and I'll either call it or I'll miss it. However like Fanatic said if you've been doing it a long that shoulnd't exempt you from continuing to study your rules and case books. Speaking of which I was a little dismayed at one tournament before it even started I was bored so I took out my rules book and I was reading it just to confirm some situations that I had seen. And a coach walks over and was like "Oh boy that can't be a good sign" Now he said it in a joking way. But still if the sight of an official reading a rules book is a cause for concern then perhaps Coaches dont really want them to do their jobs.
The point about the refs being too slow or fat to get in position is a good one, some times toward the end of a long day, I have seen a ref call a pin from a kneeling position, not that it cant be done, but it is obvious ,it is a major undertaking just for him to get back up off the mat.
As for a ref screwing a kid on purpose,,,I dont believe that happens,,possibly a ref will tilt one way or the other deppending on attitudes of participants. The blatant call that I was talking about was when my son had a kid stacked up for 8 seconds and the ref didnt call the pin,,shoot other coaches on the other side of the coliseum asked me what was goiing on,,,basically everyone that witnessed it says he got screwed, ,,it knocked him out of medal contention. Being a senior is what makes it sting so bad, like I said , he copes like a man,,,,ma,,I am still hot about it.. That is not the only questionable call we saw that particular ref make,,so there needs to be some improvement.
One last thought, Nigel, I like your statement"I strive to become better each time I am out there"" that is a great attitude, and I applaud you.
Vince lombardi said""Winning isnt everything, but striving to win is"" the same goes for everyday life,striving to do your best r improve and grow, is what it is all about.
Good day
Didn't Lombardi also say "Winning isn't everything, it's the only thing"?
No he didnt, that is probably the grossest malignment of a great coach. I am not sure where that came from.Probably someone that doesnt like sports, and has a small,pencil like neck.
Actually, I'm still pretty sure that he did. In fact, here's a link to a quotes page for Vince Lombardi:
http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/v/vince_lombardi.html In case you don't want to go there I'll type you a couple of them myself:
-If it doesn't matter who wins or loses, then why do they keep score?
-If winning isn't everything, why do they keep score?
-If you can accept losing you can't win. If you can walk you can run. No one is ever hurt. Hurt is in your mind.
-Show me a good loser, and I'll show you a loser.
And now for everyone's new favorite:
-Winning isn't everything, it's the only thing.
So there, you're wrong and I'm right. And "malignment" is not a word, you just made that up to sound smart.
*Swish*
How's THAT for some gross "malignation."
I have alot of respect for Lancer. He is alot like Bill O'Reily. He backs it up with facts. I don't even have a kid that wrestle's anymore he is raised now, and yes there are ref's that will hose a wrestler. They were around when my son was wrestling and they are the same ones that cant get their fat a$$'s down to see a pin now. I won't name names they KNOW I know who they are. Doesnt matter. There are some good ref's and there are some bad ref's I can live with that if you can. I can't live with the cheating ref's some who have protected the records of certain wrestlers.
Gentlemen you have a legit complaint. Officiating did seem a little off at State.
First I think we need to realize that we are all human. Being human we make mistakes. How many coaches made mistakes which might have cost a kid a match.
We do need a system to keep the officials in check. I would hope are officials are professional enough to not hold grudges or make a bad call intentionally.
In Freestyle they have a system to evaluate officiating, maybe we need to look into how they do it and see if we can incorporate something for our folkstyle refs. Beware of the politics that could become involved.
Oh my bad, I forgot their already is.......
If a kid loses a match by one point and on a bad call at the end of the match I GUARANTEE there were several opportunities in that match for the kid to score. I know ref's are gonna make bad calls. They are human. My deal is as long as they are consistant it's not as bad. I just received the 2004 Edition of the International Rule Book & Guide to Wrestling and on the very first page under the heading "Modern Wrestling" it says and I quote "Wrestlers are expected to go
"all out" from start to finish" and later it adds "Passivity (stalling) is the worst enemy of wrestling". So even if the kid is riding legs either he makes action of gets dinged for stalling. Same on bottom man. I myself wrestled four years in high school then 2 at Labette and would LOVE the opportunity to ref. BUT getting a meeting that is close is hard. I realize there was one like 5 months ago in parsons, but that's it. If you miss it your screwed here in SEK. I know I'm not alone in wanting to get to officiate some high school matches. I whole heartedly agree that the younger guys are eager and would push the older guys to officiate at a higher level.
Hey church didn't you ref. at the classic last weekend?????
there were a few officals that were bad, Like in one of Johnny Chrismans matched he had 3 secs left and he threw a head-lock and took the oppenent to the ground with 1 sec and the ref didnt give him any pts. It was horrible I even saw that and I was up in the stands
Best thing that could have happened to Johnny Chrisman would have been lett his uncle John Chrisman ref his match!! He would have won for sure then. LOL hahaha I better stop. But I won't. I would compare Big John's reffing to well let me see, ohh ok the same set of standards he uses to coach the Haysville Jr. Wrestling. Big John is now in the Campus hall of fame for having such high standards. He is in the same books as the likes of Carl Hall and others of the same calibur. LOL ok I'm stopping.
and has a small,pencil like neck.
The late great"Classy" Freddy Blassie said it best:
"You pencil neck geek!"