I was just wondering what the buzz is lately about the possible move of the 6-5-4As from Wichita after this year? I haven't heard much, other than leaving Wichita was supposedly a forgone conclusion.
Any insights?
the last i have heard was either Topeka or Manhattan.
The talk is to move 5A & 6A to the Kansas City Area
4A to Salina
People are working on it but nothing is done yet.
The Kansas City thing is interesting, but there really isn't a facility just yet in the area — at least until either Wyandotte County or Olathe builds an arena. And Salina for 4A would be great — just like Hays for 3-2-1A.
Funny thing about the Manhattan idea is that a year or so ago, a bunch of us were kicking this one around: Move the tournament to Manhattan — put the 6As and 5As in Bramlege and the 4As and 3-2-1As in Ahern.
I know, there's probably very little chance that will happen; the 3-2-1A Western bloc will NEVER allow a move from Hays, but the Manhattan thing is interesting...
Merry Christmas to all and to all a good night!
Why would Wyandotte County need to build an arena when we have Kemper Arena, it is bigger than the Kansas Collesieum(spelling).
That would be fine with me, but Kemper is in Missouri & I don't think that would work out for KSHSAA.
What they need to look at is reducing the number of state tournaments by combining 5A and 6A into one 16 man bracket. Then they could look for a site. Next they could combine 1-4A and have it in Hays. This would give Kansas two state champs intead of 4. If not that then they could go back to the 8 man brackets for state so the size of the facility wouldn't have to be so large. 16 qualifiers in 5A and 6A means that 50% of the wrestlers go to state. That is a joke!
Yeah. How dare we offer high school wrestlers the opportunity to compete in the state tournament. Crazy rules.
I think the Manhattan idea would be swell. I think KC is too far East. Besides, it's not like a school from the East will send many to state anyway. (Just kidding....jusssssst kidding)
Actually, I don't know what the problem is with Wichita...
The thing I like about the Manhattan idea (and again, so far as I know, this is not being seriously discussed) is the idea of everyone in the same town while in two different venues. We could try something revolutionary like A single day's admission would admit you to both arena, giving fans the chance to see "how the other half lives." Maybe we could even combine the finals into one arena, who knows?
It would be a great event and draw all of the state's wrestling to one place for a few days. Personally, I love it.
As for the troubles with Wichita, others could speak to that better than I (may Kansas state experience has been exclusively in Hays), but from what I understand, no one — coaches, wrestlers, fans or KSHSAA — have been very happy with the way the Colusiem runs things and they have been unwilling to make changes. That's my understanding, anyway; perhaps someone smarter could clarify?
A proposal that I have heard involves taking four sites from around the state, say (Hays, Topeka, Salina & Wichita) and rotate the classes bewteen the four sites each year. That doesn't seem practical to have a 6A tournament out in Hays, but it would only happen once every four years.
Ideally, if they could put 1-3A & 4A together in Hays and 5A & 6A together in Manhattan or Topeka, that would seem the best for fans and teams involved.
The Coaches in 1A, 2A, 3A and most of the people involved in that State Tournament has made it perfectly clear that they don't want their Tournament to be touched. It’s not that they wouldn’t like to see 4A wrestling but their Tournament runs well and they don’t want it disturbed.
I know of one proposal to move 5A & 6A to the Topeka area. I don’t know if the Coaches in 4A have put any proposals on the table yet with KSHSAA? But the talk is to move them by themselves to Salina.
Short of the Manhattan pipe dream, that sounds like an ideal situation. After seeing Hays the last four years, I can't imagine adding another class there (sorry Bill, I know you'd like that home cookin'!).
Topeka would be perfect for the biggest classes, while Salina would be great from all aspects for the 4As, while leaving Hays untouched. Hopefully that's the way it will play out.
No way. I like 4A in the same arena as the bigger schools. 4A wrestling is exciting to watch, and I think it would lose some of that excitement if they were all by themselves. I like the idea of everyone in Manhattan, then combining everyone for the finals. Man, that would be sweet.
Hays previously hosted both the 4A and 3A and did not have enough motel space to do it. I would like to see 3A rotated east once in a while but DO much prefer leaving it in Hays to putting it in the same site with 4, 5, and 6A. I have been to Wichita and NO Thanks!!!!!!!!
I would like to see the state tournaments held in a College town in Kansas that supports wrestling. If Hayes, America is the only choice so be it. Our kids club is going to Manhattan this week for a tournament and and I had better hear the Manhattan Chamber of Commerce Cheer, we have a few hotels and lodging tickets this year and maybe we will NOT next year. We would like see see division I wrestling back in this state. Or maybe we can hold our state tournaments in Stilwater, Ok., Columbia, MO, Or Lincoln, NE, Aimes, IA, keep the kids in Kansas that give the state some recognition!!
I was just curious; is there ANYONE out there in favor of seeing the State tournament stay in Wichita? This sounds like one of those ultimate one-sided arguments — like, "Are you in favor of nuclear war?"
I sure wouldn't mind trying it somewhere else! What about somewhere where it's a little more fan friendly? Costs per session, parking and walking issues, food fares, etc., keep many fans away and burden those who sacrifice to go--is there a way to cut back for the fans' sakes in these tough times? As far as combining divisions goes--my vote is NO! Recognition is one of the keys to success! If you don't give kids a chance to earn some kudos for themselves you might as well take wrestling out of the state completely! (Maybe this was the intent of those state schools referred to earlier!) No one would consider having a single state event for football, basketball, etc. so why wrestling? It would be cool though to go back to having grand state so the individuals could square off and quiet the braggarts who are sure that their 6A kid could whup all comers!
It is not, and has not been, Wichita alone that is the problem. It is that piece of crap building that is the problem and the way the people that operate it act. It is totally inhospitable not to mention dark, dank, dirty, and cold. The people that actually run the tourney do a marvelous job and always have done so, but the facility is horrible and the operators of it are worse.
Agree with comments. Manhattan has some advantages: I-70 access, collegiate atmoshphere, decent auditorium and central to most 4A-6A venues. Only issues appear to be impact of the tourney on KSU indoor events and enough interest in the community to execute. Parking will be a pain regardless. Potential of Topeka and Manhattan TV coverage better than average. The only difficult part would be to somehow stagger finals of the 4A and 5A/6A to encompass all.
Leave 3A-1A out at Hays. That's traditional and most cost effective for the schools represented. They know how to execute a tourney so why break it?
I was part of the 'wandering' state tournaments in the '70s. Not fun. Besides, bringing Hutchison and the Wichita crowds north might be interesting to watch.
It would be nice to have 4A, 5A and 6A experience the great atmosphere and hospitality that we get from Hays. I have been going to Hays for many years and always have a great time. I would not go to Wichita based on the comments I've seen on this site. I think the idea of bringing the Hutch and Wichita crowd to Manhattan is a great one.
I don't think parking in Manhattan would be a problem. The KSU Bramlage parking lots have at least as many parking spaces as the Kansas Colliseum. The only problem is that I don't know if Bramlage was really built for wrestling from a spectator's standpoint.
I'm sure Hays is nice, but there are very few 5A/6A teams that far West. It's a mighty long trek from Manhattan as it is. I can't imagine how long it would take for some of the KC guys.
It's not just the long trip. It's that the long trip doesn't make sense. Why would you send 55 teams (just a guess) three hours or more West when you have the same accomodations much closer to home? Hays makes a lot of sense for 1A-3A, but for 5A-6A it's not logical. Long trips cost money, and that's not something a lot of schools in Kansas have right now. Plus, Manhattan rules Hays drools.
Name me an arena in Kansas that was built for wrestling. Bramlege is probably as close as anywhere else.
I think Salina would work. It is a little more centrally located. Or move everything to Hays. Fill the entire bottom floor with mats. Do not allow any downstairs seating. If there was not enough time just extend the tournament to 3 days. Hays Hosted the NAIA nationals one or rwo years and that is what they did I believe. How ever I do not know everything. I don not think that moving the tourney to manhattan is a good idea because of the split up of the classifications. I think the state may not want to pay for the use of two buildings. But I do agree with the fact that 4a, 5a, 6a, need to leave Wichita. Maybe after a year or two and the economic dent it would make maybe there would be enough pressure on them to work better and with everyone invloved. The Reason why I do not like the Manhattan idea as well is the fact that KSU dropped thier wrestling program so why would we want to support them? Fort Hays is the only four year school with a program. They obviously know how to run a tournament lets throw our money thier way. Screw K-State.
Coach L:
By hosting the tournaments at Manhattan, it just might open some eyes at that level. This area is replete with solid wrestling programs (Manhattan, Abiline, Clay Center) to name just a few. Plus, KSU has an outstanding new collegiate club with national level competitors.
Sooner or later TITLE IX will encompass qualitative equity and not rigid quantitave parity.
I like the idea of Salina as well.
Just thoughts.
Tim
Nobody has mentioned the hotel factor. Topeka really picks your pocket during the kids state tourney. Don't know if Salina or Manhattan have enough rooms to stop that from happening. If the hotels are at capacity they will charge more. Just a thought.
I agree that those high schools have outstanding programs. That can not be denied. However I feel that Fort Hays has been with Kansas Wrestling through thick and thin. KSU has not. It is great that they have this other program for students to do. That is fine. But they have not really stepped out and shown alot of support that I really now of. If I am wrong correct me please. Are people afraid to support Fort Hays. If they are they should not be. It is a great school with a good coach. One thing is for sure the kids that usually wrestle there get thier degrees. I mean that is why you go to college don't you? If we sent those kids that went to divsion 1 to fort hays think of all of the national titles that could be won. Please do not tell me that Div. 1 is more prestigous. If you are a All-American at Division 2 you are still a great wrestler. I just think we should support Fort Hays more. The more money they have to work with the better the program will become. Why do we need to convince KSU to start a program again? Support the program that has been there. This is my small humble opinion and if I make any KSU fans mad I am truly sorry about it. I think KSU is a great school but I think they have shown that they are possibly a little more concerned with football and are trying to biuld up a.... dare I say it......a basketball team. Don't take this post like I know everything. I do not want anyone to take it that way.
I think it would be great to have all divisions in the same town, but I agree the hotel issue would be a large obstacle. I also like the Manhattan idea, and I think if we ever have any hopes of restarting a program at KSU, we have to choose Mr. Shea's perspective over Coach L., with the exception of the fact that we DEFINITELY should support Ft. Hays. It bothers me, too, to see so many quality Kansas wrestlers go away to other states, but if we take the attitude "screw K State" (or any KS school without wrestling), we are giving up all hope for a return of their wrestling program. Unfortunately, I don't think Manhattan is prepared for this in terms of hotel rooms. We have a hard time getting a room in Wichita and there are many more there.
I really hope no one gives much weight to the idea of separating 4A in its own facility. Someone from Manhattan posted that they like to watch 4A. Thank you! 4A likes to watch 5 & 6A, and for that matter, we'd like to watch 3-2-1A if it was possible. The Coliseum is definitely not ideal, but I'd rather do that for the time being than have 4A pulled away.
By the way, I AM a KSU fan and you didn't offend me, but why not push for more programs? I am absolutely NOT a KU fan, but I'd rather see them add a wrestling program than not gaining one at all.
Tim (from your ever-loyal assistant):
Nice call (and nice use of the big words!)! Putting state in Manhattan could be the perfect precursor to bringing back wrestling to your alma mater. And you're right about Title IX, too.
No one is deserting Fort Hays. The problem is that we need to do what is best for HIGH SCHOOL wrestling in the state and quit worrying about tradition and everything else. For now, Hays is great for the 3-2-1As as Salina would for the 4As and Topeka for the big schools.
But a single site tournament would be a great boon to the state and K-State would be the ideal site for it.
Jeff
I don't think holding a state meet in any town would make the college think seriously about fielding a wrestling program. KU just cut some men's sports (tennis and swimming, if you want to call those "men's...") and would probably add those before they added wrestling. I don't think K-State will ever create a wrestling team either. Plus, holding the tournament in Wichita hasn't sparked interest from Wichita State. (Any thoughts about moving the tournament to WSU's basketball colliseum?)
I don't know if Manhattan has enough hotels or not. There are plenty, and they hold lots of visitors for KSU games, but I'm not sure about wrestling. On another note, I think Hat-town hotels would be cheaper than rooms in Wichita or Topeka. You could also rent rooms in Junction City, which is like many teams renting hotel rooms in Newton.
Thoughts:
1) From logistical standpoint, Manhattan area has more than enough facilities to host any KSHSAA state event. If Hays can pull it off (and 3A-1A should stay there...it's now institutionalized)than Manhattan/Topeka can.
2) KSU routinely allows local Kids Wrestling tournament which has as many participants as a KSHSAA state event.
3) Universities are profit oriented institutions. If a positive bottom line is possible, than the university will move toward enacting. However, the size of a wrestling team (12+ weight classes) multiplied by any given number of scholarships (presumptive, you could have a program w/o scholarships..but then this whole discussion is moot) inhibits the universities from establishing programs unless they can equitably demonstrate the same toward a woman's sport. For example, there are maybe 10 scholarshiped women on the basketball vice the 45 men on a football team. Something(body) has to lose (and football will not budge). The cost of the actual programs are irrelevant (i.e. when's the last time any university golf team or track team made money?) as virtually every institution lives or dies on men's football, men's basketball or women's basketball.
4) It's always good to remember as well that universities aren't easily 'bullied' as easily as the local school board. Granted, they're very concerned with image, but it's a risk/reward balancing act.
Tim
Coach L:
Roger...But how do you 'support' Fort Hays? Seems implausible to bring any other KSHSAA events to Hays simoultaneous with the 3A-1A. Would be injustice to stagger state events - though not improbable - so that all could wrestle there. I don't feel Hays has the logistical capacity to expand from its current tournament load.
I also think we may be talking two different aspects. I'm not advocating KSU over FHSU (with competing funds etc). I was simply trying to lay out discussion for KSU (in particular) matters.
As to JUCOs, I concur that those are valuable programs. Again, goes to profitability... very poor analogy but - "Everybody wants to date Cindy Crawford...but who can afford to?" Those colleges with imbedded wrestling programs have an institutional fan base that shows a positive bottom line ... and even then that comes under fire with Title IX...(in res latest court challenges etc). Just thoughts.
Tim
Just for the record, I would like to date Cindy Crawford!
Seriously though, I like the idea of Salina a little bit. Wichita is ok if they didnt hold it in that cold dark barn with those rude people working there selling concessions and refusing to clean the bathrooms. Man that place is a pigsty. I like Wichita though, but Salina has its good points too although I really have no idea how much space they have in the way of hotels. That is the good thing about Wichita.
From what I understand both coach Bickley and Fort Hays AD Tom Spicer may be very interested in the possibility of adding 4A to the 321A tournament. I know they can add additional mats on the lower level as they did at kids state when I was a kid. They could also condense to two mats for the finals and bring out the large bleachers down stairs for additional seating as they do for basketball and home wrestling meets. (With the bleachers out they can seat almost 9000 people). Their have also be several motels built there over the past few years plus there are some 30 miles east in Russell and some 30 miles west in Wakeeney. The question then becomes where does 5A, 6A go. so far Manhatten sounds the best. I personally think separating them would be a huge mistake. Decreasing the tournament size, crowd size, and prestige, not to mention the commerce level of the hosting community. Where ever they go they should stay together. The ideal way to go of course would be to hold them all together. The problem is Kansas does not have a community that is large enough with a big enough venue to host. One question I have is how will this be handled for the dual state if it ever gets passed. Since there will be fewer teams it should be possible to hold the event with all classes together which would be very cool. I can't remember if this issue was addressed in the proposel or not??
You are right Tim I did not think about the injustice of staggering the event. That was wrong. Well back to square one.......
Interesting conversation. I vote for Demi Moore!
Randy Hinderliter :p
Mamasawn:
Could work with the 4A-1A tournaments at same venue. Still think Manhattan/Topeka area is better logistically.
As far as dual state, and this is to open a HUGE can of worms, would recommend that it be held following coaches'concurrence, moderated by KSHSAA/and KWCA representatives, choosing the top 2-3 dual teams from 3-1A, 4A, 5A and 6A - wrestled the week before regionals. Seasonal start/stop dates could be adjusted accordingly. Would provide huge incentive for those teams
which may not be as 'tournament' tough but dual competitive and make regional seeding a bit easier. Would also serve as excellent venue for 'one stop shopping' from collegiate scouts.
Tim